Did Jesus exist? Italian court to decide

[Karmashock]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060105/od_uk_nm/oukoe_uk_religion_court_2

what is wrong with these screw balls?

[Devon]

:lol:
Hummm... The court is Italian, and they are fairly religious to say the least. So i cant see him wining that one.

Me myself am not a religous person so when i read Angels and Deamons, The Da Vinci Code by Dan Brown, It did intrest me a great deal to see the history of the church and how it has lied to people on subjects over the years. If you have not read the book i would sujest it to anyone, more so if you do go to church. (YES i know they are fiction books, However alot of story is based on fact)
what is wrong with these screw balls?
Is that saying you do believe in jesus/God etc or that you thought it was a waist of time because you thought it to be false?

In the states I do hear that some schools, although teaching the Darwin theory or eveloution (which is scienctificly accepted accros most of the world). But they have to teach it as a THEORY and with a disclaimer along the lines of the world was really created in 6 Days. And that Adam/ Eve were made by God.
Now, to be honest, I believe this to be Bullshit. Granted that the states is a very Christain country but is teaching kids like this they way forward? The Darwin Theory is the accepted fact why not teach it as such?

[Karmashock]

Is that saying you do believe in jesus/God etc or that you thought it was a waist of time because you thought it to be false?
Because he's messing with the church motivated by nothing but spite and malice. What is the point? Athiests will continue to believe it's full of shit regardless, and christians will continue to think it isn't. So what's the point? Why get some court to mess with this? It's stupid and should just be thrown out of court.

In the states I do hear that some schools, although teaching the Darwin theory or eveloution (which is scienctificly accepted accros most of the world). But they have to teach it as a THEORY and with a disclaimer along the lines of the world was really created in 6 Days. And that Adam/ Eve were made by God.
Now, to be honest, I believe this to be Bullshit.
Me too, and it's a state matter. There are 50 states and each has it's own right to be different in certain ways so long as it doesn't breach the constitution.

Granted that the states is a very Christain country but is teaching kids like this they way forward?
The states is generally pretty christian, but only a few states would pass such a law. On the other side, there are some states that refuse to call christmas trees christmas trees... and instead call them holiday trees... the same states banned halloween as it has spiritual undertones and instead called it 'fall festival'... which of course is lame.


The Darwin Theory is the accepted fact why not teach it as such?
Because it makes evangelicals nervious. They believe in the literal word of the bible and as such find darwins theories to be a threat to their faith. Additionally, we are a republic which means people get to vote. That includes evangelicals... In areas where you get a lot of them all in one place, you get that kind of stuff.


I personally think the evangelical movement is misguided and foolish... but I'm not an evangelical either so that's to be expected. They don't hurt anyone and aren't violent, so I don't really care about them... they're just occasionally annoying.

[Devon]

The states is generally pretty christian, but only a few states would pass such a law. On the other side, there are some states that refuse to call christmas trees christmas trees... and instead call them holiday trees... the same states banned halloween as it has spiritual undertones and instead called it 'fall festival'... which of course is lame.

:furious: That really gets on my tits, their doing it over here to. ITS CALLED CHRISTMAS BECAUSE WE CELIBRATE CHRISTMAS YOU DUM C***S :tantrum:
IF YOU DONT LIKE IT, FUCK OFF TO AN ARAB STATE AND DONT BOTHER US WITH YOUR PATHIETIC "but the non-christain people might get offended" I DONT GIVE A SHIT. NOBODY CARES, IF THEY WANT TO LIVE IN A CHRISTAIN COUNTRY THEN THEY CAN PUT UP WITH 'CHRISTMAS' GOT IT?

<deep breath>

[Karmashock]

:furious: That really gets on my tits, their doing it over here to. ITS CALLED CHRISTMAS BECAUSE WE CELIBRATE CHRISTMAS YOU DUM C***S :tantrum:
IF YOU DONT LIKE IT, FUCK OFF TO AN ARAB STATE AND DONT BOTHER US WITH YOUR PATHIETIC "but the non-christain people might get offended" I DONT GIVE A SHIT. NOBODY CARES, IF THEY WANT TO LIVE IN A CHRISTAIN COUNTRY THEN THEY CAN PUT UP WITH 'CHRISTMAS' GOT IT?

<deep breath>
see... this thing with the guy suing the church preaching their beliefs is just as stupid.

Was buddha real? Any buddhist will tell you he was... just like any christian will tell you jesus was real... lets sue all religions!


Anyway, the way we do things in the states is that individual states can pretty much do what they please without troubling anyone else. So in Mass. they call it a "holiday tree" and banned halloween... but in other places they say "evolution is just an opinion"... It varies. The mistake most people in other countries make is thinking that the actions of one state are the actions/opinions of the whole country. It's just not the case. We are very diverse place.

Twits.

[Devon]

The mistake most people in other countries make is thinking that the actions of one state are the actions/opinions of the whole country. It's just not the case. We are very diverse place.

Twits. I did not say that you were not diverse.


I have no problems about people having a religion, and spending their time being involved in it, or preaching it. The issue I had in my last post was that the way for example, they are starting to call it 'winter holidays' and not the christmas break, witch is what it is. Some people feel that calling something that had 'christ' in the word is excluding the religious minorities, such as Muslims.

Now that, i feel, is just silly. Muslims are free to celibrate ramadan (excuse spelling) where they fast for the daylight hours. Why are we no free to openly celibrate christmas? This maybe some thing that is more noticble in the UK as we dont have the same set-up as the states.

People should be free to express their religion without any danger of been taken to court!

[Karmashock]

thus bringing us back to the point of this post... the guy is suing the vatican for saying jesus was a real person.

[Devon]

What is the point? Athiests will continue to believe it's full of shit regardless, and christians will continue to think it isn't. So what's the point? Why get some court to mess with this? It's stupid and should just be thrown out of court.
:agree:

[Karmashock]

The only motivation for this is malice... he wants to hurt people... to make people unhappy... to shame... which if anything is going to just vindicate the church as they're basically being attacked by evil people...

[ChatMonitor-q]

Just a note on evolution: It IS widely accepted... but only as a THEORY. evolution is, by the laws for creating "scientific fact" unproveable, because you CANNOT replicate it time and time again or demonstrate it time and time again in a lab or in real life.

So, weather you BELIEVE in evolution or BELIEVE in Creation... both require a LEAP OF FAITH to take as FACT.

Evolution is not simply MUTATION.
Evolution is not simply survival mutation
Evolution is a mutation to another species through an intermediate species

can you think of any examples of this?

Evolution is a Theory, NOT a Fact.
Unless you can deomnstrate evolution in a lab.

[Bentusi]

Just a note on evolution: It IS widely accepted... but only as a THEORY. evolution is, by the laws for creating "scientific fact" unproveable, because you CANNOT replicate it time and time again or demonstrate it time and time again in a lab or in real life.

So, weather you BELIEVE in evolution or BELIEVE in Creation... both require a LEAP OF FAITH to take as FACT.

Evolution is not simply MUTATION.
Evolution is not simply survival mutation
Evolution is a mutation to another species through an intermediate species

can you think of any examples of this?

Evolution is a Theory, NOT a Fact.
Unless you can deomnstrate evolution in a lab.

You couldn't be more wrong. A Scientific THEORY is different from an everyday one. A normal theory is basically a guess, a scientific theory is something that is backed up by MASSIVE amounts of data ALL OF WHICH support it, while there is NOT ONE peice of data that does not. Because In science the idea is to make something falsifible, since we can't know for sure if somethings fact right off the back we make a guess and then try and disprove it.

Long story short, Evolution is a explantion of the diversity of species we have on this planet. It is as well supported as the Theory Of Gravity, and I'd like you to try and disprove that one.

As for your definition of Evolution, you even more wrong. Evolution is not "well this species mutated into something else." Evolution says that there are mutations (i'm using the term genetically here, it just means different gene patterns, not a 3rd eye) and genetic diversity throughout ALL species, and that selective pressures act on those species to choose for or against based on certain conditions.

Take the peppered moth for example. The peppered moth has 2 phenotypes of color, bright white and dark/peppered. They naturally live on tree's with white bark, so as you would expect the white moths survived and passed on their phenotype to following generations etc etc. Then came the industrial revolution, which covered the tree's in soot. Suddenly, the white moths were fucked since they stood out like a fuckin bullseye, while the peppered moths blended in perfectly. So the opposite pattern happened, the white moths got eaten by the predators while the peppered moths survived to reproduce and pass on the peppered moth phenotype. This is real life scientific fact.

It doesn't explain speciation of course, to get that I'd have to use a different example, and i have one if you really want it. But my main point here is to actually learn what your saying is an opinion actually says first, before you blunder around like an idiot.

Evolution is not a hard concept to understand. Say we take the following scenerio. The asian bird flu mutates into a form that is both highly contagious and lethal to humans. However Thankfully due to quick thinking North and South America completely close thier borders preventing the virus from reaching the western hemisphere (unlikely i know, but for the purposes of this arguement...). Everybody in Europe, Asia, Africa, and maybe the assuies (who knows) are exposed to the virus in a massive pandemic. Billions die, the only remaining people live because they're in the deep end of the gene pool in terms of there immune system, it simply obliterates anything that doesn't belong (ever know somebody who NEVER gets sick? than you know who I'm talking about). A Massive breakdown of society occurs, leaving those few individuals isolated from the rest of the world, particularly the western hemisphere. Evolution has already occured, those who survived are not a new species (though with a large amount of time and continued isolation from the west), the population has evolved to where the overall quality of the immune system is very very high. And, like i mentioned before, if they were continued to be isolated from the west you would eventually have two new species after a couple 100 thousand or so years.

Evolution isn't an opinion, it's scientific fact. We know it to be as true as the laws of thermodynamics, gravity, etc etc. It's not complicated, it's incredibly simple to grasp and understand. It's only downside is that it doesn't mesh with christian evangelicals, and so alot of kids are unfortunately taught idiot science and then pay the price later when universities refuse to honor their credits.

[ChatMonitor-q]

You couldn't be more wrong. A Scientific THEORY is different from an everyday one. A normal theory is basically a guess, a scientific theory is something that is backed up by MASSIVE amounts of data ALL OF WHICH support it, while there is NOT ONE peice of data that does not.

So why do people apply the word THEORY to evolution? There are many evidences to the contrary.

Because In science the idea is to make something falsifible, since we can't know for sure if somethings fact right off the back we make a guess and then try and disprove it.

This sounds like you are refering to the "Scientfic Method"

Here are some refrences to it for everyone to be on the same page.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method
http://phyun5.ucr.edu/~wudka/Physics7/Notes_www/node5.html
http://teacher.nsrl.rochester.edu/phy_labs/AppendixE/AppendixE.html

Basicaly here are the the steps:

[Fair use]

1. Observation and description of a phenomenon or group of phenomena.

2. Formulation of an hypothesis to explain the phenomena. In physics, the hypothesis often takes the form of a causal mechanism or a mathematical relation.

3. Use of the hypothesis to predict the existence of other phenomena, or to predict quantitatively the results of new observations.

4. Performance of experimental tests of the predictions by several independent experimenters and properly performed experiments.

[/Fair use]

Has this happened with evolution? when where and who tested it? how many times?

Long story short, Evolution is a explantion of the diversity of species we have on this planet. It is as well supported as the Theory Of Gravity, and I'd like you to try and disprove that one.[\QUOTE]

GRAVITY is an AXIOM - not a theory. we can demonstrate it on request. can you do this with evolution? please cite an example where evolution is happening NOW in an observable way.

[QUOTE=Bentusi]As for your definition of Evolution, you even more wrong. Evolution is not "well this species mutated into something else." Evolution says that there are mutations (i'm using the term genetically here, it just means different gene patterns, not a 3rd eye) and genetic diversity throughout ALL species, and that selective pressures act on those species to choose for or against based on certain conditions.

I rushed my last "theory of evolution" here is my understanding of it:

Evolution is NOT natural selection, and Natural selection is NOT evolution.
Evolution is the attempted explination of the current Phylogenetic Tree (google it if you unsure) through inherited traits which contain benefits for the offspring of the organism - compounded over time. (resulting in new species)

Take the peppered moth for example. The peppered moth has 2 phenotypes of color, bright white and dark/peppered. They naturally live on tree's with white bark, so as you would expect the white moths survived and passed on their phenotype to following generations etc etc. Then came the industrial revolution, which covered the tree's in soot. Suddenly, the white moths were fucked since they stood out like a fuckin bullseye, while the peppered moths blended in perfectly. So the opposite pattern happened, the white moths got eaten by the predators while the peppered moths survived to reproduce and pass on the peppered moth phenotype. This is real life scientific fact.

Thank you for that fine demonstration of natural selection. again natural selection is NOT evolution.

It has been found that since clean power has been introduced to these areas, the bark of these trees has lightened. Resulting (as you are no doubt aware) in a shft back to the white phenotype being dominant in the population. because this shift has occured in both directions this suggests that the allels for expressing both phenotypes were present from the begining and remain present. Meaning that the genetic pool for the population has not changed. Completely undermining you arguement for evolution (Damn those moths!)

I am supprised that you hae not jumped on the band wagon with you fellow evolutionists and discarded the peppered moth arguement. you seem to be the only evolutionist still holding fast to this discredited theory.

Haekel anyone??? think : embryonic recapitualtion (google it) {just another example of a discarded evolutionary anthem}

It doesn't explain speciation of course, to get that I'd have to use a different example, and i have one if you really want it. But my main point here is to actually learn what your saying is an opinion actually says first, before you blunder around like an idiot.(sic)

As for blundering around was that even english?

Ahh! so you knew that the moth theory was useless, as indicated by your refrences to specation. please please please please provide me an example of specation with refrences! because an example of specation with observable evidences (not projected evidences so-called) is the only real arguement an evoltionist could ever have.

Evolution is not a hard concept to understand. Say we take the following scenerio. The asian bird flu mutates into a form that is both highly contagious and lethal to humans. However Thankfully due to quick thinking North and South America completely close thier borders preventing the virus from reaching the western hemisphere (unlikely i know, but for the purposes of this arguement...). Everybody in Europe, Asia, Africa, and maybe the assuies (who knows) are exposed to the virus in a massive pandemic. Billions die, the only remaining people live because they're in the deep end of the gene pool in terms of there immune system, it simply obliterates anything that doesn't belong (ever know somebody who NEVER gets sick? than you know who I'm talking about). A Massive breakdown of society occurs, leaving those few individuals isolated from the rest of the world, particularly the western hemisphere. Evolution has already occured, those who survived are not a new species

THIS IS NATURAL SELECTION. NOT EVOLUTION. evolution requires new genetic information, otherwise no change has occured.

This is the same as....

I have 2 sheep in a yard - i run out to catch them, and one escapes. i eat the one i caught. does this mean the one that escaped is expirencing evolution?

(though with a large amount of time and continued isolation from the west), the population has evolved to where the overall quality of the immune system is very very high. And, like i mentioned before, if they were continued to be isolated from the west you would eventually have two new species after a couple 100 thousand or so years.

And this isnt a leap of faith? you are using a humungous time scale which cant be tested. if it cant be tested it cant pass the scientific method. if it cant pass the scientific method. it is not a scientific fact, or even a theory - it becomes nothing more than a hypothesis.

Evolution isn't an opinion, it's scientific fact.

bzzzzzzt not if it doesnt pass scientific method

We know it to be as true as the laws of thermodynamics, gravity, etc etc.

NOBODY - not even the leading evolutionists of the day call the theory of evolution a LAW. therefore its wrong to compare it to laws as they are totaly different things. (even darwin himself wasnt bold enought for a statement like that)

These laws (thermodynamic) have been elevated from theory to law, because in every instance, in every situation their verasity has been upheld. they can, at WILL, be demonstrated. please cite a single instance of this for evolution.

I noticed through the progression of your post that evolution in your stated opinion, has itself "evolved" from THEORY through FACT to LAW. hows that for a missaplication of scientific process???

It's not complicated, it's incredibly simple to grasp and understand. It's only downside is that it doesn't mesh with christian evangelicals, and so alot of kids are unfortunately taught idiot science and then pay the price later when universities refuse to honor their credits.

please define "idiot science" i haven't heard this term before.

In fair use...

Creation, It's not complicated, it's incredibly simple to grasp and understand. (And the textbooks for this theory are 4000 years older than any texts you have for evolution this is called documentry evidence.) It's only downside is that it doesn't mesh with evolutionary evangelicals, who deal fast and lose with the truth - and manipulate SCIENTIFIC METHOD inorder to suport their leap of faith.


Cheers

Chatmonitor-q

[ChatMonitor-q]

ive moved this to the "evolution thread"