Rogue enchant priorities

[Ralex]

This is some information I copied from a WoW forum post a while ago. I think it is very useful, I hope others do too.

Combat rogue mainhand PvE:
crusader >= lifesteal > fiery > +15agil >> +5dam >= +15str >>> unholy = icy

Combat rogue mainhand PvP:
lifesteal >= crusader > fiery > +15agil >> +5dam >= +15str >>> unholy = icy

Dagger rogue mainhand PvE:
+15 agil = crusader >= lifesteal >= +5dam >= fiery > 15 str >>> unholy = icy

Dagger rogue mainhand PvP:
+5dam = +15 agil = lifesteal >= crusader >= fiery > 15 str >>> unholy = icy

Offhand (all):
+15 agil >= lifesteal >= crusader > fiery > 15 str >>>>> +5dam > unholy = icy

Rogues, Instant Attacks and Procs
- Rogues have a real advantage when it comes to mainhand weapon procs. Procs are calculated as procs per minute, however this is internally expressed as a percentage value per attack. This means that when you spam 3 sinister strikes in the beginning of a fight your fiery enchant has a 84% chance to proc with a 2.80 speed weapon.
- Mainhand weapon procs tend to go off roughly 2X as often as their procs per minute would infer for combat rogues.
- Mainhand weapon procs tend to go off roughly 1.5X as often as their procs per minute would infer for dagger rogues.

Crusader
- 75-125 point heal and +100 strength for 15 seconds
- crusader on both weapons dualwielding does stack. Only one icon shows up but you get both heals and your strength goes up by 200.
- crusader is by far the best weapon buff for non-rogues and hunters as they get 2 attack per strength
- rogues get 1 attack per strength, so 100 attack or 7.14dps
- 7.14dps = +7.14dps on mainhand and +3.6 offhand (or +5.36dps offhand with imp dualwielding)
- the 7.14dps also adds to instant attacks. This is calculated by (weaponspeed * 7.14)= damage added to instants
- assuming no overlapping procs ,effective dps increase from 1-hand autoattack alone is 7.14 DPS * 25% operation (1ppm, 15s duration)= 1.84dps mainhand, 0.92dps offhand (1.38dps offhand with imp dualwield) and 1.25-2.00hps healing.
- crusader is a buff so it isn't resistable, thus it is the best mainhand enchant for PvE raids, particularly high end raids like MC.
- crusader has a low procrate and a duration, so it is much less useful in PvP and soloing where it seems to always proc at the end of a fight
- crusader procs at a rate of 1 proc per minute. Thus a 2.80 speed weapon would proc 1/(60/2.80)= 4.67% chance per proc

Lifesteal
- 30 point heal and 30 point fire (NOT shadow) damage per proc
- lifesteal procs at a rate of 6 procs per minute. Thus a 2.80 speed weapon would proc 6/(60/2.80)= 28.00% chance per proc
- lifesteal is better than crusader for PvP and soloing as it is atomic damage and healing
- lifesteal does 3dps and heals 3hps per hand with autoattack alone

Fiery
- 40 point fire damage per proc
- fiery does 4dps with autoattack alone
- fiery procs at a rate of 6 procs per minute. Thus a 2.80 speed weapon would proc 6/(60/2.80)= 28.00% chance per proc

15 agil
- 15 agil = 15 attack = +1.07dps to mainhand and 0.54dps to offhand (0.80dps to offhand with imp dualwield)
- 15 agil = 0.52% crit = 1.03% dodge

15 str
- 15 str = 15 attack = +1.07dps to mainhand and 0.54dps to offhand (0.80dps to offhand with imp dualwield)

5 damage
- adds a flat 5 damage to every attack
- dps added is 5 / (speed of weapon), so on a 2.00 speed weapon like the barman shanker it would add 2.5dps to mainhand only
- useful for mainhand dagger rogues only

Demonslaying
- 75-125 holy damage against demons and a 5 second stun
- don't know procrate
- useful if you're grinding on satyrs, basically

Unholy/Icy
- unholy is worthless and icy has a very low procrate, don't bother

Maelstrom/Heroism Cards
- No real tests have been performed yet for these procs. Hearsay says they are 1 proc per minute per hand. If this is true, they are worthy of being purple.

[Vlaxman]

unholy = icy

unholy == icy*

[wislok]

Simply fantastic. Great post Ralex.

[Jedic]

I'm not a rogue, but I can do the Fiery enchant for anyone who needs it... just let me know and I'll confirm the mats for you..

[balrog3214]

My heroism proboly procs 5 times in one miniute. (if i was standing there and hitting something)

Im not sure if it would be different for rogues though.

[Ralex]

A few patches ago, Lifestealing was changed from fire damage to shadow damage. That made it much better for MC [because fire resist is so high] and it gets boosted by Locks CoS and other shadow damage enhancements.

So for MH weapon enchants it is now competitive with and in many cases better than Crusader for rogues [other classes, your mileage may vary].

As is often, I do my best work copying from others. Here is info I copied from a post by Kalman on the rogue forums.

Chance on hit [COH] is always:

weaponspeed/60*ppm

Thus, Crusader's COH is speed/60.

Some Crusader uptime numbers to bear in mind, generated via simulation and accounting for reprocs only extending the timer, not adding to it:

Assumes 10% +hit. Numbers are approximate average value, should be accurate +/- .25%. In addition, the sim assumes you're not lazy, and are smart, and keep SnD up essentially constantly.

1.7 speed dagger, 29.25% uptime.
1.8 speed dagger, 30% uptime.
1.9 speed dagger, 30.75% uptime.
2.0 speed dagger, 31.25% uptime.
2.4 speed sword/mace/fist, 35.75% uptime.
2.5 speed s/m/f, 36.25% uptime.
2.6 speed s/m/f, 36.75% uptime.
2.7 speed s/m/f, 37% uptime.
2.8 speed s/m/f, 37.25% uptime.
2.9 speed s/m/f, 37.4% uptime.

Crusader's DPS can be modeled as acting as a passive AP buff equal to the uptime.

Thus, Crusader's real DPS bonus is, assuming Lethality, Opportunity, and Imp BS as appropriate:

Non-combat dagger builds:

(uptime/14*1.5)*(.76+hit)*(1+crit) = white DPS
(uptime/14*1.7*1.8)*(.95+hit, max of 1)*(1+1.3*(crit+.3))/6 = yellow DPS

Combat dagger:
(uptime/14*1.75)*(.76+hit)*(1+crit) = white DPS
(uptime/14*1.7*1.8)*(.95+hit, max of 1)*(1+1.3*(crit+.3))/6 = yellow DPS

Non-combat swords:
(uptime/14*1.5)*(.76+hit)*(1+crit) = white DPS
(uptime/14*2.4)*(.95+hit, max of 1)*(1+1.3*crit)/4 = yellow DPS

Combat swords:
(uptime/14*1.75)*(.76+hit)*(1+crit) = white DPS
(uptime/14*2.4)*(.95+hit, max of 1)*(1+1.3*crit)/4 = yellow DPS

Add a factor of 1.3 to the white DPS to account for Slice'n'Dice, then bear in mind that both white and yellow DPS will be reduced by armor. For a point of comparison: fully sundered/recklessed/faerie fired, Vael still has ~33% damage reduction. Without those, it's roughly 50%.

Lifesteal is considerably simpler, as it is build-independent.

Swords:
30*(weaponspd/10)*((1/spd)*1.3*(.76+hit)+1/4*(.95+hit, max 1)) = DPS

Daggers:
30*(weaponspd/10)*((1/spd)*1.3*(.76+hit)+1/6*(.95+hit, max 1)) = DPS

Your mitigation is resists, which are typically fairly low, and this does not account for CoS's 10% bonus damage, nor for Shadow Weaving, both of which will increase the 30 (33 for CoS, 35 for weaving, 38 for both).

You'll note that +hit helps both, while +crit only helps Crusader out.

These equations should give you enough to calculate whether, *for you*, Crus or LS is better. Under essentially no circumstances is +15 Agi better, even counting the crit bonus (matches +5 at around 900 DPS pre-enchant, Crusader at around 1200 DPS).

[telva]

Ok this is almost useful since I am still considering Lifesteal for my mace compared to crusader. Cammy claims my mace is too slow for Lifesteal (2.6), does this sound reasonable? I assume 2xCrusader when DWing is better for a tank, but I am not smart enough to know.

[MVB]

Too slow for lifesteal IMO.

I've personally decided to go for untamed blade btw, not ashkandi, to hopefully dump these points sooner ... talk about crusader with that bad boy's proc...

[TooTall]

Nice post about the lifesteal vs crusader and other enchants stuff, i've been looking through those discussions myself a bit too, and we had a discussion about it on the Green Goo forum too.

Now in my opinion ( I didn't do mats, I'm too lazy for that :P);
Lifesteal is better for dagger rogues, since the proc rate is pretty high, though for pure Pve crusader is better since the 100 AP adds to backstab, sinisterstrike, etc. damage.
For sword rogues I would go for the crusader enchant, since they get more damage from the 100 AP, and thus more damage on sinister strike, etc.

I also heard that dual-wielding crusader only gives 200 str when it's from the procs of both different weapons (which seems pretty obvious to me).

Anyway I haven't tried anyone of them, I'm working on lifesteal now. And I can do crusader so I might try that on a sword when I get a nice one (Dal'Rends Sacred Charge seems nice)

[Kordrann]

I've personally decided to go for untamed blade btw, not ashkandi, to hopefully dump these points sooner ...

I hate you so much.

[Leridyn]

Let me tell you - before I hit 60 (almost a year ago), I wrestled with my choice of endgame daggers. I'm a combat rogue. I busted my butt to get Heartseeker made, and then got Crusader put on it.

Best decision I EVER made.

That thing procs so much, *I* end up on the healing charts!!! It has been the best thing for my build (facestabbing) and I wouldn't change it for the world. It doesn't make me suck aggro (as lifestealing does) any more than I do, and the healing helps out my priests/droods/pallytards just a smidge so that they can concentrate on more important people in the group like the tanks.

I wouldn't change my decision. For me, hands-down, it's crusader. And the next time a purple dagger drops for me in MC, Crusader is right on it. Believe me.

[TooTall]

I would go for crusader in PvE for the reasons you give Leridyn, but I think lifesteal is better for solo and PvP and since that is what I do when I'm not in instances, and I can stell you I'm not doing a lot of instances, since Green Goo just ain't ready for the high-end stuff yet, I'll get lifesteal first.

[Leridyn]

I will agree that if you are primarily doing PvP, then lifestealing might be your best bet. I'm almost exclusively PvE on both my toons, so my point of view is somewhat biased!

Good luck with Lifesteal, and I'm sure it will be awesome for you!

[Ralex]

Ok this is almost useful since I am still considering Lifesteal for my mace compared to crusader. Cammy claims my mace is too slow for Lifesteal (2.6), does this sound reasonable? I assume 2xCrusader when DWing is better for a tank, but I am not smart enough to know.

For warriors Crusader's +100 Strength is 200 AP, correct? So likely Crusader is even better for them. However, once the discussion moves to warrior mechanics, while I may not be in doubt, I am very likely wrong.

For rogues, 100 Strength = 100 AP.

[Goenitz]

How old ago was this post Ralex? I know for a fact procs can not proc procs anymore, and tho I'm not sure, I do think instant attacks can not proc procs anymore either with this new patch.

Have your sinister strikes etc been proccing fiery/lifesteal etc post patch Ralex?

[Ralex]

How old ago was this post Ralex? I know for a fact procs can not proc procs anymore, and tho I'm not sure, I do think instant attacks can not proc procs anymore either with this new patch.

Have your sinister strikes etc been proccing fiery/lifesteal etc post patch Ralex?

The post on the merits of Lifesteal vs. Crusader is very recent, within the last few days.

My MH has Crusader on it, and it does still proc from both autoattacks [white damage] and instant attacks [yellow damage]. That wasn't changed in the proc process change.

There is some discussion on the rogue forums about exactly what ended up being changed. Some say any swing attacks [including Hand of Justice and Sword Spec] can still proc other attacks and just non-swing [like poison or Maelstrom, etc] attacks cannot proc others. I have not tested it myself, but will do so in some down time.

Goe likely knows this, but for others, *before* the change there were some [so called] proc rogues who build characters with Sword Spec [which can proc an extra attack], a Maelstrom card [nature damage proc], Hand of Justice [extra attack chance proc], and instant poison, EACH of which used to be able to proc ANY of the others.

The combat logs I have seen in screen shots could in extraordinary circumstances look like this for a *single* swing [paraphrasing from memory]:

Your Sinister Strike crits XXXX for 510
You gain an extra attack from Sword Spec
Your attack hits XXXX for 145
Your Lighting attack hits XXX for 245
You gain an extra attack from Sword Spec
Your attack hits XXXX for 120
You gain an extra attack from Hand of Justice
Your attack hits for 147
Your Instant Poison does 120 damage
You gain an extra attack from Sword Spec
Your Lighting attack hits XXX for 210
You gain an extra attack from Hand of Justice
Your attack crits XXXX for 539
Your Instant Poison does 100 damage

...and on and on, you get the idea. Occasionally, randomly, truly massive amounts of damage could occur *instantly*.

I just got a Maelstrom card on Monday and I haven't really done any tests on it. I gave up on farming a HoJ, but may decide to change my mind on that later. And while in MC, I don't use poison, but that has changed in BWL. I may decide to become a modified proc rogue myself ;)