Christians.

[JADezimar]

There are so many religions you could categorize with christians. That when People talk about some they should be more specific. Sometimes A certain church doesnt even represent, its denomination etc. Its not that I am one. But Many have Christian backgrounds and/or are christian and there very sane people. I wish people wouldnt Stereotype them. Im talking as in generalization of them As a whole from America. Particuliar those Dems that hate Christians just cuase they vote right (in most cases). This sounds like An answer to another topic, Thats because it is. I know its a funny way to start a thread. But here it is :P

For those that think its ok lets just say....Ill save that one for later :P

[eXoRciSt]

Im a christian (kinda forced to) .

1 problem i have, if you hate christianity, and everyhting about it, and celebrate christmas, you have problems, Christmas celebrates Jesus.

[MVB]

For the better part of the first 1500 years of Christianity, Christian meant Catholic. In fact, the word Catholic was never used, so much as the lowercased catholic (meaning universal), which was just a way of describing the Christian Church.

After the schism in the Church, traditional Christians took the name Catholic, to help differentiate themselves from other Christians. Unfortunately, other Christians didn't do the same, and left themselves in one big lump group. Now, Baptists are Baptists, and Lutherans are Lutherans, etc., but they often just get referred to as "Christians."

I'm a Christian, because I believe in Christ's teachings, etc. I'm a Catholic because that is the form of Christianity I follow. It may or may not be 'right,' but it is MOST in-line with the original Church, though not at all identical.

[LardGibs]

one of the many things I don't understand, not being raised in the tradition and seeing in as an 'outsider'...

Somewhere in these religious traditions oriented around the stewardship of one's 'eternal soul' and various bowings and scrapings to keep accounts in order... there is a fundamental contradiction. Are people religio-moral out of self interest? Are they conditioned to be so? Has a secret enlightenment been bestowed upon them as they hose the love of Christ™ at the rest of us?

I see these religious traditions as that: a social framework that functioned quite well at keeping the profits flowing upward to the elite, and the workers in line producing them and producing more workers. How did they lose control? People could listen to music at home.

Now we have different traditions, like free market capitalism, democracy, taxation, and criminal justice to achieve the same end result. Meanwhile sad relics strut about in their satiny robes in dusty cathedrals, longing for the good old days.
The fact is many people need to be told what to do, and religion was a reasonably effective way to accomplish this goal. Unfortunately as other memeplexes developed its appeal has lessened.

Just like you never see Luke Skywalker taking a shit in Star Wars, nobody ever takes a shit in Christianity. That's why it's not relevant to people who live real lives.

[MVB]

The original Christian prophets, if you will, had no aspirations to the elite, Lard. There are few very good Catholic priests with any aspirations to eliteness, godliness, etc.

From the outside looking in, apparently religion looks quite wrong. I'm sorry for you, for that much. It is pleasant to have faith to rely on when things are unpleasant around you.

[Larsson7]

one of the many things I don't understand, not being raised in the tradition and seeing in as an 'outsider'...

Somewhere in these religious traditions oriented around the stewardship of one's 'eternal soul' and various bowings and scrapings to keep accounts in order... there is a fundamental contradiction. Are people religio-moral out of self interest? Are they conditioned to be so? Has a secret enlightenment been bestowed upon them as they hose the love of Christ™ at the rest of us?

I see these religious traditions as that: a social framework that functioned quite well at keeping the profits flowing upward to the elite, and the workers in line producing them and producing more workers. How did they lose control? People could listen to music at home.

Now we have different traditions, like free market capitalism, democracy, taxation, and criminal justice to achieve the same end result. Meanwhile sad relics strut about in their satiny robes in dusty cathedrals, longing for the good old days.
The fact is many people need to be told what to do, and religion was a reasonably effective way to accomplish this goal. Unfortunately as other metamemes developed its appeal has lessened.

Just like you never see Luke Skywalker taking a shit in Star Wars, nobody ever takes a shit in Christianity. That's why it's not relevant to people who live real lives.

I think that, because people enjoy so much personal chocie and freedom, that they consider they do not need Religion.

I imagine a lot of people see Religion as something that affects their pursuit of personal happiness and simply disregard it as "something that gets in the way".

While I certainly see the rationale behind your thinking of many Christian Churches becoming outdated - I do not believe that Religion itself has become outdated.

I would wager that, if you really got down to the nitty gritty, many people do not practice Religion because it is just too damned hard and no one wants to waste time in actually doing something that would impinge upon how they currently live their lives.

[Outrageous Cheek]

Jad, you bring up a very good point. I have always been peeved about everyone say they are chrisitan. If you are Catholic, then say so! Don't say I'm christian.

That last paragraph you posted MVB, is so true. When hard times occur? Are you going to place faith in yourself? Alot of people do...People should know by now, that they are QUITE powerless about what happens around them. We control ourselves, only. I put my faith in God alone. Not Mary. Not me...No one but God, because He is the only one that can bring peace.

[LardGibs]

Well, let's do a thought experiment.

A young boy is orphaned on a desert island and survives his childhood. Does he become religious? Probably. Does he become Christian? Fuck no, he's beating his meat, raping the animals, and running around naked.

gg

There are few very good Catholic priests with any aspirations to eliteness, godliness, etc
Few very good? I can't resolve the basic paradoxes in your sentence. There are almost no good priests with aspirations to eliteness? godliness? Reword and maybe I'll see what you're trying to say. It's like a question on an IQ test.

It is pleasant to have faith to rely on when things are unpleasant around you.
It's pleasant to have a nice dream also.

But really, what I want to talk about is whether or not people practice religious activities in all their forms out of self interest, e.g. fire and brimstone. Certainly any breaks people have with religious doctrine are taken out of self interest, i.e. we <3 our gay priest, etc.

really, you can go as far as being a Deist, but never a Catholic if you are an intellectual.

[MVB]

That's a little rough on me, lard, considering that means you consider me a non-intellectual. I think religion-scoffing intellectuals are morons, most of the time, because they take the "no way jose" road, as opposed to the open-minded road. Closed-minded intellectuals bore me.

I don't practice my faith out of self-interest. To be honest, most of my morality and religion is dedicated to helping others. Consider that I enjoy the prospect of helping other poeple.

Gay priests are not statistically more or less common than gays in any other profession. They simply receive a great deal more publicity for it.

I was stating that there are not a large number of priests who could be called "good" priests (meaning following their religion properly) who have aspirations to eliteness and power.

[Outrageous Cheek]

Well, let's do a thought experiment.

A young boy is orphaned on a desert island and survives his childhood. Does he become religious? Probably. Does he become Christian? Fuck no, he's beating his meat, raping the animals, and running around naked.

gg


Back up your argument. What do you base that on?

Also please define "Christian". What KIND of christian are we talking here?

And if he does become "religious", what kinda of religion, if not christian? Definatly not Catholic...

What does this sentence mean? "Fuck no, he's beating his meat, raping the animals, and running around naked" I really don't know...:(

Btw, I like what you said there MVB.

[LardGibs]

Catholic: does what the pope says

Christian: does what Jesus said*

Deist: doesn't hear anybody saying anything, aspires to moral conduct and reverence of earthly life.

* much like Latin, prone to modern reinterpretation hence the diaspora of Christian faiths

I claim you are not a Catholic, or if you are one, you can't be one in great standing as far as doctrine, if not piety.

I outline these distinctions because of the intellectual comment and your umbrage. As long as the pope is riding around in his gold-plated popemobile and wearing the fancy duds, he's illustrating the pyramidal structure of the heirarchy as well as paying homage to the Catholic church's 'grand traditions'. They just can't unlink wealthiness from godliness, probably owing to the showbuisness aimed at the weak intellect of the base.

So it'll be rough on you only if you insist on leaping in front of the bullet headed at the Catholic church coming from my argument. I had you pegged as a deist.:ponder:

[LardGibs]

What does this sentence mean? "Fuck no, he's beating his meat, raping the animals, and running around naked" I really don't know...:(

It illustrates the fallacy in the 'true faith'. It can't exist in vacuo, man left to his own devices may exhibit spirituality or religiosisty, but fails to follow vital elements of the doctrine offered as 'the true word of God' which one would expect to be audible to man.

Dial it up a little. It's all about power.

1) Create a large complex body of self-contractory material
2) Cite it selectively to support your desired outcome
3) Rinse, lather, repeat.

It can be the law, a religion, science, anything. You, MC, don't believe anything except that I am wrong and you scrabble about trying to find pieces from your material to present.

As it is a matter of belief for you, it can't really be argued.

[Outrageous Cheek]

Also, I am not "religious" out of self-intrest...

I am "religious" because.

I am devoting my life to my Creator..And because he gave us free will, we may choose to follow Him, or we may choose not to. But I know as a fact that this way (Following Him) is the best way...Not only because it says so in the Bible, But I feel it. It feels right, and true. (Can you say that about your lifestyle?...Does it feel pure? Like you know what your mission in life is?) This is my personal experience. It is un-disputeable.

Also, I am a Follower because I have recognized that this way of life as the only way of life that has a purpose that makes perfect sense. What do you guys live for? Yourself? If so, do you feel like you are living a fulfilling life? Are you satisfied...Happy? with the way you live? When you wake up in the morning do you say..."Boy O Boy, I CANNOT wait to start raking in the good stuff...all for me"...? Do you feel joy when you praise yourself? Put others down and lift yourself up?

No. I know you don't because I have lived that way before, and I know that it is unsatisfactory and unpleasant. And something that I never ever want to experience again. Living for God is the absoloute opposite, Never have I regretted a prayer, or a doing something good for someone, or speaking to anyone about God, nor have I regretted living a single moment for him; I can tell you from personal stand point, that it is THE most fullfilling sensation I have ever experienced.

[Outrageous Cheek]

It can be the law, a religion, science, anything. You, MC, don't believe anything except that I am wrong and you scrabble about trying to find pieces from your material to present.

My material? What I'm telling you came from personal experiences, and from the Bible. Not "pieces".

I must say, your words are very unclear my friend, often hard to understand...

I'm sorry I fail to understand this aswell. Your wording is rather confusing:

Dial it up a little. It's all about power.

1) Create a large complex body of self-contractory material
2) Cite it selectively to support your desired outcome
3) Rinse, lather, repeat.

[Outrageous Cheek]

It illustrates the fallacy in the 'true faith'. It can't exist in vacuo, man left to his own devices may exhibit spirituality or religiosisty, but fails to follow vital elements of the doctrine offered as 'the true word of God' which one would expect to be audible to man.

You are right in the first sentence. Man I naturally sinfull, and has a hard heart against God. No matter what I tell you or you, it is wholly up to God to soften your hardend heart...and to open your closed ears...this is something I cannot do.

As for "the True Word of God"... Have you ever read the Bible? The True word of God is fully (Fully in a sense that it is fully heard, not that we know everything about God...) audible.

Forgive my triple post.

[LardGibs]

As far as your material: I am referring to the last time you showed your colors as a creationist and the thread on the old forums where you cited selectively to reinforce your belief structure regarding creation and 'intelligent design'. Not your position, but your belief.

for you, belief comes first, then position.

Perhaps I am difficult to understand since I recall your posts and you do not, saddled as you are by volumes of spam.

ffs you are what in your mid teens, and you have found the best way :hail:. keep looking. Why not put 'Keep Looking' on your bumper sticker and have that as a religion?

What does anybody live for? Metaphysics aside, survival. Survival is pretty easy these days for many.

Anybody can have experiences, bowing to a puppetmaster god as he puts out a cigarette butt on your soul, it's as near as the corner store.

I hate to break it to you but if you practice your religion for feelings of fulfillment- that's self interest.

My lifestyle is far from pure, it is filled with many problems and difficulties, and religion offers solutions for none of them, save joining a monastery.

[Outrageous Cheek]

Yes I know your life is filled with problems. Problems that you cannot solve. Problems you need help with. Where are you going to get help from lard?

"ffs you are what in your mid teens, and you have found the best way . keep looking. Why not put 'Keep Looking' on your bumper sticker and have that as a religion?"

Ok, well after referring MVB's lifestlye as, un intelligent basically, You should be intelligent enough to know, that When you have found a solution to a problem, You don't "keep looking". For that, is idiocy.

Let's do another thought experiment.

Say a young boy is orphaned on a dessert island. And he grows through his childhood....Say, one day, a boat so magnificent, that it can only be imagined in dreams...pulls up to the island. So the boy boards the ship, and imediately is absoloutly certain that this boat was his way off the island, and an exellent way it is! Now if the boy had followed your advise, he would simple jump off the boat and say "Screw that, I'd rather live in agony on this barren dessert island."

Lard that boy would have to be utterly mad to do that.


"What does anybody live for? Metaphysics aside, survival. Survival is pretty easy these days for many.

Anybody can have experiences, bowing to a puppetmaster god as he puts out a cigarette butt on your soul, it's as near as the corner store"

Yes survival is easy I suppose...But don't you want more than to just "survive"? Don't you want a feelling of accomplishment? Don't you want to like your life? To be happy that you are alive, and not only that but to not be afraid of death? Knowing that someday, when you die, you will go to heaven. And to have and know your purpose? (I can explain that to you if you would like...)

[Outrageous Cheek]

My lifestyle is far from pure, it is filled with many problems and difficulties, and religion offers solutions for none of them, save joining a monastery.

It doesn't? How do you know? Have you "been there done that, got the T-Shirt"?

Besides there is only one way to get to heaven and live the way I have recently explained to you.


Btw, Really sorry if I have come out sounding arrogant, or 'high and mighty' lol.

[MVB]

You are incorrect in your understanding of the differences between the Catholic church and the average Christian church, Lard.

[JADezimar]

I Think Angel Made a very intelligent comment on the subject. I think thats what it all comes down too. Immorality is alot more wide accepted to society. "Cuase its the easy way now" For Short term happiness. So "Christians that preach morality are looked down upon as xtremists lol". And there is alwayz that one bunch of weirdo's that get labeled as christian. WHen 99.9% of the rest would be like we dont beleive that way. Most are sane, Maybe a bit bible thumping at times but there Very intelligent individuals etc. I just think its horrible when people diss on Bush cuase he claims to have a Christian background. Whats the difference between Bashing a christian and bashing a gay or lesbian nothing. But its acceptable to bash the Christian cuase liberals say so. It would seem to me that what liberals says go. Which is moving in the oppposite direction (For reasons of selfish happiness)

[LardGibs]

You are incorrect in your understanding of the differences between the Catholic church and the average Christian church, Lard.
Usually a statement like this is followed by some sort of rhetorical device, such as 1) further information 2) an example 3) explanation of above.

Anyone who continues to think that my viewpoint is an open assault on anybody's intellect should relax. I will again, try to state my thesis.

Anybody who cannot see the power structure, carrots on sticks, whips, and viral self propagating features in the Catholic doctrine really isn't using a rational process, or what I referred to as intellect. A reasoning mind, whatever. could be tunnel blindness, whatever.

I get angry :furious: when evangelical viewpoints like MC's (or GW's) regarding the mythic afterlife are used as a palliative for modern living. Maybe I shouldn't because it just reinforces my thesis.

[/<yle]

However, arnt some of those "rules" good? For example, the one MVB violates quite often being sexual relations outside of marriage? STDs would be almost non-existant (and biblical jews enjoyed a healthier life because of that). Not all STDs can be cured. Murder cannot be reversed. The laws are there for a reason. Wether or not you believe in heaven, thats your choice. But the laws are made for peoples own safty.

[Outrageous Cheek]

Bingo Kyle.

Lard, I'm not Catholic...I'm not 100% sure if that's what you were thinking...But Just needed to state that really quickly.

[Blacksand]

This is always a touchy subject.

I, myself, was born, baptised, and raised Catholic. And I'm not referring to the soft church it is today, I'm talking about fundamentalist hard line Catholics. Latin Mass, the works. I was an altar boy as well.
That being said, after my parent's divorce, my mother converted to Methodism.
The change was quite a shock to me, and while I studied up on the faith .. I was always convinced she made a terrible mistake.

That being said .. as I grew older and more self-aware and my intelligence grew, even as I displayed it less and less, my dissatisfaction with the church and religon as a whole grew. And grew. There was a point when I spit on religon altogether and did everything I could to antagonize churchgoing people. Also, you have to remember that by this point I was also living in Georgia which is the buckle of the bible belt. Fire and Brimstone Baptists. And those pissed me off most of all.

Eventually, I realized that fighting and carrying on was not the way for me. I was weary of rage against a system I saw and still see as false, oppressive, and archaic. I abandoned my ways of godlessness, but I came to terms with it on my own terms.

My dilemma was, and still is .. I believe organized religion is indeed the opiate of the masses. It makes one docile and happy. I do not have a problem with this, any person who willingly wears blinders is welcome to.

But do I believe in God?

After years, I'm still torn. Ask me on any given day and I might say I'm an atheist, or I might say I'm agnostic. Some days I cannot doubt that there is a creator and that he (perhaps) has our best intrest at heart. On other, more cynical ( and hungover ) days, there is no such thing to me.

I could support both sides, but I've made my peace with the dilemma in my own ways, and I'm not going to discuss them here. If I worship God, and I might .. I do it in the privacy of my own home, in my own way. There is no church to interfere with the process. If I don't worship god at all, and indeed, deny that such a thing could exist, that is also my perogative.

But as for me coming to terms with the church as a whole..
I can tolerate your faith. I will even listen respectfully to your views and opinions. I will ask intelligent questions. As. Long. As. You. Give. Me. The. Same. Respect. You try to push your faith on me, I push back. Hard.
Do not tell me that your faith is the only way to live. Do not tell me that only if I accept the lord as my saviour and take him into my heart will I go to heaven. Do not tell me that if I do not worship exactly the way you do, I am going straight to hell.

These things anger me. Statements like that are exactly why I become angry with organized religon. If you believe these things to be true, keep it to yourself. Have the common courtesy and respect to listen to my views and opinions as well. I made the gesture to listen to yours.

I realize I am rambling about this. But Chef - I have no problem with your faith. I admire you standing up for it. But do not preach to me. Do not try to save me. Do not assume you're a better person or somehow morally superior because of your faith.

Practice your faith with humility and grace, broadcasting how pious you are is merely pride, which is a sin of it's own.

That's all I'm going to say on the subject.

**EDIT**
I just now caught the faggot atheist comment on the comedy boards.
That offends me on so many different levels, I can't even begin to describe it.
The comment might have been made rashly or without thinking, and that is excusable. But the comment itself is not, espicially to me, as several of my closest friends are either atheists, homosexual, or both.
While being gay is not exactly something I would have any desire to personally experience, I have no problem with it morally. If anyone, male or female decided they prefer their own sex, I have no problem with that. Again, as long as it's not pushed on me. If I meet one of the 'I'm gay and you HAVE to accept it!' types, -OR- someone that aggressively comes on to me, refusing to take a hint that I'm unintrested.. I'm liable to kick their teeth down their throat. But intolerance is absolutely unexcusable in my eyes, and you have managed to piss away most of the respect I had for you, Chef.

[Outrageous Cheek]

I'm truly sorry Black, I certainly did make a rash dissision. Please forgive me, and please don't take it seriously or personally, (I was jokeing, and not to mention I call even friends "faggots" in a...playfull way.) I greatly regret saying that.

Also, I did not mean to sound like I was pushing my faith down your throat...You see, I also could say, that Lard is doing the same in a slightly different way. He is an atheist...among others...and they are defending atheism...Is that not the same?

(Please note Black that I am defending my faith in a general way...Not lashing out at anyone...)

By the way.

"Practice your faith with humility and grace, broadcasting how pious you are is merely pride, which is a sin of it's own."

I do realize it's a sin. And I absoloutly did not mean to sound pridefull, (I already mentioned this, sir). I do however strongly believe in God, And I am telling you this because in the Bible, we Followers are commanded by God to do so..To spread the "good News".

Sorry if I sounded like I forcing It on you, and I respect your views, and I will absoloutly listen to your opinions aswell my friend.

My sincere apologies. I do not expect you to forgive me.

BTW.

"Last edited by Blacksand : Today at 02:07 AM. Reason: Because I fucking feel like it."

:rofl:

[Blueviper]

If someone insults God, I just kinda feel sorry for them cuz they are the ones that are f**ked unless they realize and repent for their foolish sinfulness.

13337

[Polaris]

im not gonna bother to read this entire thread, although i've read a good portion of it
all i want to say is that God exists- you cant deny his presence. there is no possible alternative to that. im not gonna even bother trying to defend that either, mainly because i dont want to argue about evolution right now, because whether any of you believe it or not, evolution is religious (science can be seen, and all we've seen is microevolution, but no macro) and requires as much, if not more faith to believe as creationism. i just find it easier to believe that an all-powerful God created us for His glory, and despite all the crap we've done and the distance we've severed ourselves from Him, He still desires to have a relationship with us. I cant fathom why, but He does- and who am I to question an omnipotent God?
im not gonna force this down any of your throats- and i dont want you to take it that way. just by reading this, im happy. dont expect me to come back here and defend my claim- i've said it and you guys can bicker all you want, but i am resolute in my beliefs, and i have trouble believing that anyone truly does not believe in the existance of God.
Unto each his own, but perhaps you'd like to consider my beliefs- i can tell you now that no one who has truly accepted them has come away feeling void.
thanks for reading

[Karmashock]

Christianity = a religion

Religion = A universal philosophy that is believed to be implicit in the universe itself… typically, but not always, differing authority to a super personality or ‘god’ (my definition and its better then any you’re likely to get from anything else).

Atheism = The belief or conviction that the absence of any god or super personality is implicit in the universe itself. Therefore the only difference between any religion and atheism is that atheism uses the same logic and mental machinery to come to the opposite conclusion. Ergo, Atheists are no more logical then the believers in any given religion.

Agnosticism = Uncertainty as to whether there is an implicit philosophy or super personality evident in the universe… and therefore willing and open to see any ‘evidence’ that will prove the argument one way or the other. An example would be shining angels driving the forces of darkness back into the foul pits of hell or total and complete scientific understanding of everything to the point where the existence of anything could be ruled out on the grounds of universal understanding.

On an ethical scale…
Religious people imposing their belief system on other people is morally equal to Atheists imposing their belief system on other people.



I’m a mixed bag… I’m religious at an emotional/ethical level but brutally scientific and grounded in all other things. The only thing that bothers me about these belief systems is that they generally don’t like to share. This includes Atheism, which as far as I’m concerned is just the newest world religion.


My take is that I don’t like religious people telling me I’m going to hell and I don’t like atheists being so hypocritically closed minded then pretending to be above it all. You’re all affiliated and none of you are better people for your beliefs. The ONLY thing that will make you good or bad, at the end of the day, are you actions. In that the Christians in particular could give the atheists a very hard time considering that atheists tend to be all talk when it comes to charity. Don’t get me wrong though… some things the jesus freaks do pisses me off as well… creationism, as a science, is total bullshit. If you want to have it as a religious belief, then fine. I don’t see a problem with believing the world was made in 7 days 6000 years ago AND believing that it was made as a result of gravitation and time over billions of years. Seriously… where is the conflict? Any fool that can walk and chew gum at the same time can believe two things that don’t agree with each other at the same time.

It’s about knowing your place. Religion knows very little about the physical world. It’s creature of the human mind just like any philosophy. Likewise science lacks the art to understand the human mind beyond the academic… it has no concept of right/good or wrong/evil. A society that was driven by nothing but science would die pathetically… and human society before science was a sad thing indeed…

Humanity requires both to survive… Religion should leave science to its job and science should leave religion and the other universal philosophies to their jobs…

As it’s said, a place for everything and everything in its place.

Love and peace, Karmashock.

[LardGibs]

I think it goes to show what a lazy and ineffectual thinker MC is, that he has labeled me an atheist, when all I have done is label Cathlolicism and to a lesser degree all Christianity as an outmoded and tranparent control structure.

Whether or not he labeled me a faggot as well certainly doesn't aid the mature discussion.

But when he learns to use the [QUOTE] tags and the 127 key controller a little better maybe he can prove I'm an atheist based on what I've said.

[Apocalypse]

My take on this.

There is no God. MC you claim your religous because you worship your creator, i worship my creator too, with all the love i can..... you know why?

Creator = Mother and Father
Not God. God did not put you here neither will he welcome you at the great pearly gates because he (and the gates) do not exist. People claim to have proof that God exists yet there is none.

'God is the name for mother on the lips and heart of all children'

[Marb]

Seriously, if there is no proof there is/was/will be a 'God', I ain't believin' shit!
In my world, I am 'God'.

[Karmashock]

all Christianity as an outmoded and tranparent control structure.
I think it has evolved quite a bit since it was that... the reformation and Protestantism...
========================

There is no God.
that's a flat statement that can't be proven... just like MC's statement that God does exist... You're no more or less credible then him.
=========================
Seriously, if there is no proof there is/was/will be a 'God', I ain't believin' shit!
You 'DO' "Believe" that there is no God... THAT is a "belief"... nothing more or less.

[Blacksand]

In my world, I am 'God'.

Intresting tangent.
This statement could be taken as Solipsism(sp?), or a tangent of LaVeyan Satanism.

I have doubts it was meant as such, but it is an intresting thought.
Discuss.

[Apocalypse]

it may be a flat statement but it's more credible than anything you can come up pro-God.

[Polaris]

ok, once again, i feel compelled to say something
you guys say you dont believe in God, but i hafta ask you- where did all this come from? evolution is blatantly false- or at least as it stands atm. we're missing billions of missing links, and even spontaneous generation doesnt make up for all of them- instead of billions we should see millions. and back to standard theory evolution- why arent we in a half state now?
i have incredible dificulty comprehending these questions. you just cant answer them.
so where did we come from? aliens? surely not.
ok, so we came from God. simple enough.
now tell me- why is it that every time people try to disprove the Bible, they always end up eating their words? the bible's been around for centuries and endured the test of time- its words are clear, concise, and present the unfallable truth that i believe God himself wanted us to read.
in the back of my bible there are about 5 or so pages (this is like size 6 Times New Roman) of prophecy written by seperate authors that was fullfilled by Jesus Christ. the question, therefore is not whether Christ lived, yea, even whether He died- roman logs tell us that- but whether or not He rose from the dead. because if He did indeed rise from the dead, that would make Him God, and thus everything i've said in this thread is true.
it is my firm dogmatic belief that this happened- and i emphasize His love for all of you- even those of you who call yourself god. i will be most honored to share what little i know about God if youre intrested. i somehow doubt any of you will be, but the offer's there for the taking.
Thanks for reading again

[LardGibs]

Definitely solipsism IMO.


Unless his world is the gerbil cage and his godly works oriented about food, toys, and waste removal... :D

[LardGibs]

Motivate me, Polaris, before I waste time like I did with MC.

You would be satisfied as a beginning point, that either the Bible is correct, and creation as commonly presented occured, or that the Bible is incorrect, and life all the way up to and including naked Man occured over geologic time.

No pansy loopholes like 'the bible is mistranslated' or 'you really need to read it in the original Hebrew'.
Furthermore you would be willing to entertain that either there is a Judeo-Christian God, and proof of evolution would disprove same entity?

To give you a preview of where this would go, you would have to argue that in the act of creation the Creator planted a bunch of fossilized life forms, artfully arranged geologic strata, ever so skillfully fine tuned the abundance of neutrons in varying carbon isotopes, all as part of the Plan.

You better know something about natural selection if you want to play, otherwise: :lala:

[Tigre]

The age of the universe, galaxies and space is we are finding out much, much, much, much older than we ever thought possible. The earth herself is much older than we dreamed could be possible. The science we have availabe to us right now to comprehend the meaning and repercussions of this fact is just now being created. This will effect not only our deeply held beliefs in Religion and Evolution but, how we percieve them.

We will find out soon enough how closely related all the great religions of the world are fundamentally(The power struggles of the Christian and Muslim Churches in the past 6 centuries has de-evolved the Church of Christ/Muhammed and God). We will soon find out how close God is to home! :\

[/<yle]

The post mentioning the age of earth refers to the measuring of some particles in the rocks when they are formed. However, Volcanic rock taken from known erruption dates dates millions of years old when it in actaullity is 50, 100, or 250 years old. However, the flawed system is still being adhered to.

[Ummon]

The existence of God cannot be proved or disproved through the use of reason alone.

God is by definition a metaphysical being, therefore the nature of this being is unexaminable through the use of physical instruments: this makes science useless to ascertain if God exists or not.

Religion cannot therefore be defined as true or false. We will never know if the supernatural exists.

But we can examine the reasons why people worship some sort of supernatural being, and their right to do so. We can examine religions as moral systems and social constructs, and the coherence of their mythoi.

Mythos is partly intentionally symbolic, partly rational (reflects the knowledges of the time when it was conceived), and partly derived from universal subconscious tendencies, and therefore the methods used to study mythos are interdisciplinary and nobody here possesses the knowledge to master them all, including myself.

Summing this up, discussing religions like it's been done here is useless, and intolerant as it is an invasion of other people's freedom. The problem is not christianism, atheism, agnosticism, which one is right, which one is wrong. You're discussing of something which is different for everyone as if it could be the same for all. Every man has the right to express his nature by worshipping a god if he so wishes, and however he wishes. It's personal, not a matter of discussion.

On a sidenote: Islam is not closely related to Christianism. It has similarities, but stems from an entirely different type of morality, culture, and system of thought.

With regard to the content of the Bible, it's not scientific in nature. Those who believe that the Bible contains exact scientific data, are just misguided fanatics. But you don't throw away the religion because the people who wrote its holy books were not modern day physicists. Knowledge is an achievement of the mind, religion an elan of the soul.

Finally: the last objection to the evolutionary theory has been removed one month ago by an interesting research which demonstrates how the eye has evolved from internal neurons capable of detecting light and meant to regulate the day-night cycle. Given the homeostatic, dynamic nature of biological molecules, evolution is unassailable theory which explains our reality without uncertainties and grey zones.

So Polaris, creationism is a middle-age-like idea. Science should stay out of religious matters, but religion should on the other hand stay out of scientific matters. The two fields are unrelated.

[LardGibs]

The post mentioning the age of earth refers to the measuring of some particles in the rocks when they are formed. However, Volcanic rock taken from known erruption dates dates millions of years old when it in actaullity is 50, 100, or 250 years old. However, the flawed system is still being adhered to.super-:rofl:

jesus harold christ on a pony. Volcanic rock is melted, not forged through thermonuclear fission products in the core of a star, which effectively resets the clock as far as radionuclide dating. A change of phase is not the synthesis of matter.

The reason why Carbon-14 dating is effective is that when an organism exchanges Carbon-14 with the biosphere, the level of 'radioactive' carbon with extra neutrons in the nucleus is homogenized and refreshed. When it dies, and does so no longer, the isotopic decay occurs and can be used to determine how long an item has not been participating in the biosphere.

learn something other than dogma:
http://www.c14dating.com/int.html

http://www.c14dating.com/lib.GIF

[CELTIC_2X]

If someone insults God, I just kinda feel sorry for them cuz they are the ones that are f**ked unless they realize and repent for their foolish sinfulness.

13337

dont ever feel sorry 4 me,

and dont call me a fool,

b/c i wouldnt ever call u a fool 4 beleaveing wat u beleave

[Apocalypse]

'God loves us all' ?

Does he really? My, he sure does, after all he gave us death, war, crime, bad thoughts, disasters, more death, greed, power, even more death.

If what you say is correct then god is the most sick and twisted person/being/whatthefuckever ever to have life!

Here's a question for you, Lets just say God does exist,

Where does God come from?

[Tigre]

Ummon and Kyle,

Actually what I was referring to was the theory of expansion and decay of the Universe. What astrophysicists have found is that through their research of the expansion and decay of the universe it is billions of light years older than we thought a few years ago. Which makes the Earth billions of years older than originally thought.

So, what does this mean to us you ask? It means that our biosphere has been destroyed and re-evolved (plate tectonics, cosmic catastrophies, biological, self inflicted etc.), over a stretch of time beyond which we could ever fathom. So there could have been literally thousands of biospheres destroyed and created over the course of time.

Gives credence to the whole "mother earth thing" huh? Could a species not unlike our own evolved before us and moved on, only to return? Could single cell organisms live through this decay process to emerge and evolve again? Could the genetic make up of our biosphere be so interelated to quickly rebuild itself again? We have only arrived on this earth in a very small time span comparetively. Could it have been a sentient being to help us along? Could it have been evolution practiced in the art for unknown eons? I think it was a little of both..................

[CELTIC_2X]

apoc,

the answer they will come up with is that he is eternal has allways been and willl all ways be

ur perfectly right about the pain and death apoc, i no all to well i am afraid

[Apocalypse]

They probably will come up with the eternal thing but that is such a weak reply if they do.

If there was a God there would be proof, There isn't any proof so this tells me there isn't a God. And the Bible is not proof.

[Polaris]

ok, apoc, maybe you should read the first chapter of genesis
if the bible is correct, then it was really us who brought those into the world, not God
ok
also, the bible is increibly historical- its unable to be disproven, as much as some may try.
and about God's authenticity- what else is there to believe? we hafta come from somewhere- thats our nature. God, however is infinite. tell me, what is the lowest possible number? there is none- they just keep on going. thats God- you cant constrain him to our ability to percieve him. you just cant. please, if youre going to take a shot at God, make sure youre working on correct assumptions. im not here to argue. im secure in myself and your faith doesnt impact me. i just want you to have your facts straight.

[/<yle]

We could go into both a rationalist or a Natural science philosophy debate on the existance of God, existentialism, ect. I pose this question to you apoc. If God exists and if God gave man free-will, arnt murder crime ect. the choices that we make?

Gibs, i wasent talking about carbon-14, i was talking about Radiometric dateing, which has been used to date the age of the earth. However, its flawed. Furthermore, Carbon 14 is no longer accurate after 60k years. So how old the earth is... anyones guess.

[Ummon]

There is no greatness without suffering. If I believed in a God I could answer that you are taking the wrong perspective, assuming that suffering is evil in itself.

There's no better way to test our nature, infact, than to face suffering, as there's no better way to test a sword than to wield it in battle.

"Oh dad, look, I cut my finger, God is evil!"

The opposite is true, really. I find that suffering is the only way to learn important things in life. And what you learn makes you better. That's why, if any God has provoked the few really bad disgraces in my life, I am grateful for that. Besides, how would I know when I am happy, if I never suffered?

To blame God (if any exists) of the evils of the world, is to despise your own right to show your courage and strength in the face of adversity.

And let me tell you, this whole religious zealots vs sick-of-life nihilists thing is boring.

Tigre: I don't get your point, to which I didn't previously answer. :confused:

[Apocalypse]

So god puts you on earth, tests your courage and strength in the face adversity on a daily basis, you die then what?

Polaris, im not arguing, i'm debating. Look, please understand, i'm not going to fall out with anyone over God, he's not worth that. If you believe in him then fine, go you. I don't and i can't understand how others can believe in him so blindly just because they can't find another answer.

[Apocalypse]

The opposite is true, really. I find that suffering is the only way to learn important things in life. And what you learn makes you better. That's why, if any God has provoked the few really bad disgraces in my life, I am grateful for that. Besides, how would I know when I am happy, if I never suffered?




You want to learn? read a book, go to school. Less painful.

Here's another point for you to think about;

Why does a child believe in the tooth fairy or Santa Claus? Because he/she is told of their existence.

[JADezimar]

So god puts you on earth, tests your courage and strength in the face adversity on a daily basis, you die then what?

Im not taking sides here. But heres an easy xplanation. For 1 Who said god puts us here? who says god aint an alien? Who says god is not someone that Just overwatches and grants rights to overpassages etc to other demensions when we die. 1 thing is for sure. Theres also a shit ton of things that happen on earth that science cant prove. Or hasnt told us. There have been true miracles that just happen. And they dont just happen lol. Science cant explain, so if science cant explain it, It dont exist ?

[Ummon]

I do believe in things nobody told me, and on the other hand I have never believed in Santa Claus, despite the fact that people told me to. What I do THINK reading your posts, Apocalypse, is that it takes a really stubborn and close-minded person to talk for hours of things he doesn't know, offending people's personal beliefs in the process. And since nobody knows or can prove neither that God exists nor that it doesn't, I suggest you avoid talking about that, simply because it's pointless.

There are things you cannot learn from a book. If chance sends handicap, death, poverty, or loneliness your way, no book can actually tell you WHAT to do to be a honourable, strong, worthy human being while facing them. It's a non-intellectual sort of knowledge which only experience imparts.

So, I have no Gods personally, but if God esists, I have no problems with him. He surely has his reasons to do what he does. Since he is beyond my understanding I don't bother trying to understand.

JAD, science doesn't work that way. Science still can't explain a lot of facts, but there's a thing called Occam's Razor, which says that it's a lot easier to suppose that we "still" don't know how to explain those facts, instead of postulating a supernatural being as their cause.

[JADezimar]

JAD, science doesn't work that way. Science still can't explain a lot of facts, but there's a thing called Occam's Razor, which says that it's a lot easier to suppose that we "still" don't know how to explain those facts, instead of postulating a supernatural being as their cause.

I wasnt talking about just god. I was talking about multiple things that cant be explained. My explanation wasnt god. I wasnt answering that question.

[Outrageous Cheek]

'God loves us all' ?

Does he really? My, he sure does, after all he gave us death, war, crime, bad thoughts, disasters, more death, greed, power, even more death.

Apoc man, these are perversions of men. War, crime, bad thought, greed. Those are all things that men choose to do. We can choose not to go to war, we can choose to not be greedy (frequent thoughts become our nature-the way we act...if we are constantly thinking selfishly..we will become greedy). Bad thoughts, can be squelched by simply thinking of something else...They become bad when we dwell on them, not only that, but bad thoughts...Where do they come from? Bad influnces, right? From other things that are evil.

Disasters, that is a very broad subject...Something like a building falling...That can be caused by a great number of problems. Poor construction, exceeding (weight? for instance) capability limits...etc.

Power when used imorally, forcefully, or deceitfully, occurs when a tyrant has, say, alterior motives.

And death, well for people who beileve in heaven...death is something that is not looked on as bad.

-Respectfully



Quote:
Originally Posted by CELTIC_2X
apoc,

the answer they will come up with is that he is eternal has allways been and willl all ways be

ur perfectly right about the pain and death apoc, i no all to well i am afraid



Pain? Well Apoc, did not mention pain. But I have something to say about pain.

Pain is a blessing. Do you know why? Have you ever read of a person who cannot feel pain?...It is a defect. We experience pain is a reminder, like something saying "you shouldn't do that!".

Let me explain, if you put your hand in boiling water, you would feel a sensation of pain, you body is telling you "Stop! You're injuring me!" and it is your natural reaction to pull out your hand.

Now imagine you are one of those poor people who (as a sad defect) cannot feel pain. If a person like this cut themselves, and did not know it...They would be bleeding and would not realize that they are bleeding to death.

I will sum up with a quote from a doctor who works with patients who cannot feel pain.

"If I could do anything for my patients, I would give them the sensation of pain."






Quote:
Originally Posted by Apocalypse
I don't and i can't understand how others can believe in him so blindly just because they can't find another answer.



Have we not answered you questions? I know, we do not have all the answers. But we DEFINATLY do not follow him blindly.

-Respectfuly

[Outrageous Cheek]

You want to learn? read a book, go to school. Less painful.

Here's another point for you to think about;

Why does a child believe in the tooth fairy or Santa Claus? Because he/she is told of their existence.

As far as your last sentence there...Children are like sponges that harden over time...if they are raised with morals and so on, it will be very hard for them to break thesee morals later in life.

As for the first sentence...Paradigms (models) are best taught through experience.

Lets say a...cat...was in school and his teachers told him, dont jump off a cliff, you will die....But the cat is curious. Aren't we all? And he jumps off the cliff...curiousity killed the cat.

but if the cat jumped off the cliff and broke all his bones...do you think he would do it again?

(Unfortuatly, we human are often very stubborn and commit the same mistakes over and over again)

Otherwise, if the cat is wise, and knows what good for him, no he would not.

[Outrageous Cheek]

I think it goes to show what a lazy and ineffectual thinker MC is, that he has labeled me an atheist, when all I have done is label Cathlolicism and to a lesser degree all Christianity as an outmoded and tranparent control structure.

Whether or not he labeled me a faggot as well certainly doesn't aid the mature discussion.

But when he learns to use the [QUOTE] tags and the 127 key controller a little better maybe he can prove I'm an atheist based on what I've said.


Well you see, I labled you as an atheist because that's what side you were defending. Now, that seemed logical at the time, are you saying you DO believe in God then? You will forgive me if I misjudged you.

Rember Lard, name calling is ineffectual argumentation aswell. Calling me lazy does not support your agrument. Lets not revert to that. Thank you.


I realize that I did "call" atheists faggots...But I most definatly regret saying that. Furthermore, I mean't more like, atheism was stupid...Not that I think atheists are fags, because I like all of you guys very much, and I know some of you hold atheist views.

What is a 127 key controller? And I know how to use the quote tags, thank you for your help. (EDIT: Ok maybe not :rofl:)

[Outrageous Cheek]

In my world, I am 'God'.

1 God

a) A being conceived as the perfect, omnipotent, omniscient originator and ruler of the universe, the principal object of faith and worship in monotheistic religions.

b) The force, effect, or a manifestation or aspect of this being.

c) A being of supernatural powers or attributes, believed in and worshiped by a people, especially a male deity thought to control some part of nature or reality.

d) An image of a supernatural being; an idol.

e) One that is worshiped, idealized, or followed: Money was their god.

f) A very handsome man.

g) A powerful ruler or despot.

-dictionary.com

So Marbz, I'm guessing your a very handsome man. :rofl:

Since you're none of the other ones lol.

-Respectfully ;)

[Apocalypse]

I do believe in things nobody told me, and on the other hand I have never believed in Santa Claus, despite the fact that people told me to. What I do THINK reading your posts, Apocalypse, is that it takes a really stubborn and close-minded person to talk for hours of things he doesn't know, offending people's personal beliefs in the process. And since nobody knows or can prove neither that God exists nor that it doesn't, I suggest you avoid talking about that, simply because it's pointless.



Ummon you are an intelligent person and i have no need to offend you neither was it my intentions but for God's sake (pun) get off your high horse.

Your right i know little about God, care to tell me why? I'll tell you;

I have never seen God
I have never heard God
In the past i called to him, HE/SHE never answered!

You wrote that little segment as tho you know more about God than i do, well you don't. Simply for the above reasons you haven't seen him.

However, I am not stubborn nor closed minded. I cannot answer the immortal question ' where did we come from?' To call me closed minded simply because i argue the point with others on religion and the existence of God is highly arrogant. Also (this isn't directed at anyone in particular) to assume there is a god and call other people (who don't) whatever you call them is also arrogant. Apart from in jest, i do not call other people names just because they believe in something. I do not believe in God but i still won't swear or curse in a church. So please don't call me closed minded because i assure you i'm not. You have all yet to prove to me the existence of God so why don't you do it instead of getting all pissy about a debate in the forum that was designed for debating!

Master Chef? You haven't really answered my questions and as for the cat? If the cat is stupid enough to jump off a cliff then it deserves to die and end it's existence, personally if you told me to jump off a cliff i would tell you to get fucked!

This is a debate so remember that next time you give a reply like that Ummon.


[edit] My apologies, my view on people following God blindly was flawed as i do know not all people do this. So i stand corrected on that statement and retract it.

Pain is most certainly not a blessing although fair enough in certain circumstances it can be called 'a lesson learned' but what about the pain of a woman who has just given birth to a stillborn? What about the pain of being raped/mugged/beaten? I do agree with you that some of these are perversions of man but the stillborn is not.

[Karmashock]

it may be a flat statement but it's more credible than anything you can come up pro-God.
Why?... Based on what?
Without empiric evidence you have nothing.

I could counter you by saying the 'elves' say you're full of shit.

Science gets respect because it holds itself to standards.

Credibility comes from this ‘discipline’; if you don't have any then you're not worthy of the respect.

Your belief that God(s) doesn’t exist is no more or less valid then someone saying that God(s) does exist. You have no proof to back that statement up.

You can say “I don’t know”, “I need more information”, or “what does it matter?”… but you can’t come to a baseless statement and have more credibility.

If you think you can, then you’re just proving my point that atheism is a religion in and of itself.
===================================
The age of the universe, galaxies and space is we are finding out much, much, much, much older than we ever thought possible. The earth herself is much older than we dreamed could be possible. The science we have availabe to us right now to comprehend the meaning and repercussions of this fact is just now being created. This will effect not only our deeply held beliefs in Religion and Evolution but, how we percieve them.

We will find out soon enough how closely related all the great religions of the world are fundamentally(The power struggles of the Christian and Muslim Churches in the past 6 centuries has de-evolved the Church of Christ/Muhammed and God). We will soon find out how close God is to home! :\

Dude… you can’t science god(s)

He(they) can bend reality around their fingers like nothing… remember… we’re talking about concepts here… A God(s) could make a universe a million years old in a second… it wouldn’t have to have lived that long, it could just be made old.

Fossils?… perhaps sketches of the divine?… maybe God(s) put them there because they wanted to see how people reacted to them.

My point is this… there is nothing in science that says that God(s) can’t/don’t exist. Science has no information on the subject. Just as they have no information on many things.

If you don’t find it likely that he/they exist, then that’s all well and good. But don’t pretend to have science’s “blessing” on the subject.

You’re just one person with a personal opinion backed by nothing then your own feelings.

Is that better then the guy that believes in a god?… you’re the same.
==========================================
The existence of God cannot be proved or disproved through the use of reason alone.

God is by definition a metaphysical being, therefore the nature of this being is unexaminable through the use of physical instruments: this makes science useless to ascertain if God exists or not.
That makes two assumption…
1. That God(s) won’t reveal themselves to us at some point… perhaps after death… sure, living human society remains in the dark, but you get to know at some point don’t you?
2. That science won’t figure everything out a billion years from… I don’t know… it’s possible to just know everything… we’ll probably have evolved into strange oozing brain creatures with voices like Mr T and hundreds of penises for tentacles… anything is possible in great sweep of time.

Religion cannot therefore be defined as true or false. We will never know if the supernatural exists.

But we can examine the reasons why people worship some sort of supernatural being, and their right to do so. We can examine religions as moral systems and social constructs, and the coherence of their mythoi.

Mythos is partly intentionally symbolic, partly rational (reflects the knowledges of the time when it was conceived), and partly derived from universal subconscious tendencies, and therefore the methods used to study mythos are interdisciplinary and nobody here possesses the knowledge to master them all, including myself.

The problem is not christianism, atheism, agnosticism, which one is right, which one is wrong. You're discussing of something which is different for everyone as if it could be the same for all. Every man has the right to express his nature by worshipping a god if he so wishes, and however he wishes. It's personal, not a matter of discussion.
This is not entirely true…
Christianity = There is a god and it is Jesus.
Atheism = There is no god.
Agnosticism = I don’t know.

All I’m saying is that Atheists can’t claim to be more or less logical then religious people. If they wanted to go for that, then they would at least take SCIENCE’S take on this… which is: I don’t know.


Finally: the last objection to the evolutionary theory has been removed one month ago by an interesting research which demonstrates how the eye has evolved from internal neurons capable of detecting light and meant to regulate the day-night cycle. Given the homeostatic, dynamic nature of biological molecules, evolution is unassailable theory which explains our reality without uncertainties and grey zones.
Religious people don’t understand how powerful the notion of a god is…

You see… a god could have created us all… and had evolution there too… how?… God hold the strings of reality in his teeth… if you could make think about how insubstantial things are in a computer… how easy it is to change so many things… an expert could do manipulate anything…

All evolution would mean in that sense is that God evolution to be empiric solution… nothing more or less.

Consider… Gods can do anything. Limitless power… that includes the power to make bend the very rules of logic, history, the minds of a trillion people on a trillion worlds… all in –5 seconds… how do you do something in negative time?… easy for a god.


That said… evolution is extremely strong and creationism is bullshit… why? Because it tries to use science to back up faith… this, if anything, shows a LACK of faith by the people doing it. The faithful have nothing to fear from science.

If you believe in god you don’t need fossil records to back you up…
==========================================
super-:rofl:

jesus harold christ on a pony. Volcanic rock is melted, not forged through thermonuclear fission products in the core of a star, which effectively resets the clock as far as radionuclide dating. A change of phase is not the synthesis of matter.
Well… All I know is that they don’t just pick up any rock to find the age of the planet… they look for rocks that HAVE NOT gone through a phase change… they look for the most undisturbed rock they can find…

Does that mean you’re wrong?… I don’t know enough about this to have a complete opinion… I doubt they’d go to the trouble to get specific rocks however if just any rock would do it… I know for a fact that volcanic rock is NOT something they want… unless it’s extremely old volcanic rock… ie cooled billions of years ago.
===========================================
They probably will come up with the eternal thing but that is such a weak reply if they do.

If there was a God there would be proof, There isn't any proof so this tells me there isn't a God. And the Bible is not proof.
Quite the opposite actually… God waits faith… proof would negate faith… so god would, if anything, provide evidence to the contrary.

So… the lack of evidence proves god exists… at least that’s what a god could easily do… who knows the mind or will of a god?… I don’t pretend to… do you?


Know you’re place… I may be a thinking animal or I maybe a celestial vessel for an immortal consciousness called a soul… either way, none of use are built to understand it.

Pretending you get it is just willful ignorance… or faith.

[LardGibs]

Well… All I know is that they don’t just pick up any rock to find the age of the planet… they look for rocks that HAVE NOT gone through a phase change… they look for the most undisturbed rock they can find…

Does that mean you’re wrong?… I don’t know enough about this to have a complete opinion… I doubt they’d go to the trouble to get specific rocks however if just any rock would do it… I know for a fact that volcanic rock is NOT something they want… unless it’s extremely old volcanic rock… ie cooled billions of years ago.
some radionuclides are gaseous, presumably melting releases the magic smoke.

it really needs to get clarified here, I did not intend to imply that rock was carbon-14 dated.

what would be nice would be to have the 'flawed' accusation clarified, I doubt sincerely it had anything to do with delivering a correct result. If you read what he said:

The post mentioning the age of earth refers to the measuring of some particles in the rocks when they are formed. However, Volcanic rock taken from known erruption dates dates millions of years old when it in actaullity is 50, 100, or 250 years old. However, the flawed system is still being adhered to.
Rock's age has nothing to do with how many phase changes it had, that was what I was saying. Carbon 14 is not gaseous and is effective enough to determine whether or not neanderthals are older than the bible, which they are quod erat demonstrandum, gg.

[Karmashock]

some radionuclides are gaseous, presumably melting releases the magic smoke.

it really needs to get clarified here, I did not intend to imply that rock was carbon-14 dated
Why are you bringing up carbon 14?... Carbon 14 would be useless in determining how old stuff is if it's billions of years old... you couldn't even date teh dinosaurs with carbon 14... it works for most of human history... included our transition from apes... but more then 50,000 years back and carbon 14 isn't going to be useful...


Look... I think we're all educated people here... lets not try to be silly an pretend to know a lot about this unless we've got a geologist in the house.

if we do, then you'd better not tell me we're dating the age of the earth with carbon 14... because I can think of 2 ironclad reasons why that's stupid.

pick a different isotope… or preferably, talk like a layman… as, despite our education, we all are laymen here on the subject I would guess.

[Ummon]

I have never seen God
I have never heard God
In the past i called to him, HE/SHE never answered!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------


This doesn't prove that God doesn't exist. It just proves that you've never seen him, never heard him, and that he never replied when you called to him.

I have never seen nor heard God myself, yet I cannot exculde that God exists. I simply can't.

For similar reasons, even if God answered, was seen, or heard, I would never be able to tell: "It's God". Since these matters are beyond human understanding, by definition, even direct experience does not prove their existence.

It's a matter of faith.

Karma, science will never understand the world completely. Induction is a process of falsification, not verification. We exclude false theories, not verify the true ones. Truth is beyond human reasoning, we can only reduce the number of falsehoods we state. Therefore, we will never know the ultimate truth, and never be able to tell if God exists.

[Outrageous Cheek]

===========================================

Quite the opposite actually… God waits faith… proof would negate faith… so god would, if anything, provide evidence to the contrary.

So… the lack of evidence proves god exists… at least that’s what a god could easily do… who knows the mind or will of a god?… I don’t pretend to… do you?


Know you’re place… I may be a thinking animal or I maybe a celestial vessel for an immortal consciousness called a soul… either way, none of use are built to understand it.

Pretending you get it is just willful ignorance… or faith.


I completely agree with your first 2 statements Karma. (Wise views my friend! :thumbsup:)

Also what Ummon says ties into this aswell.

I'm going to post later when there's more to talk about...I'm kinda brain dead right now lol.

[Outrageous Cheek]

Master Chef? You haven't really answered my questions and as for the cat? If the cat is stupid enough to jump off a cliff then it deserves to die and end it's existence, personally if you told me to jump off a cliff i would tell you to get fucked!

[edit] My apologies, my view on people following God blindly was flawed as i do know not all people do this. So i stand corrected on that statement and retract it.

Pain is most certainly not a blessing although fair enough in certain circumstances it can be called 'a lesson learned' but what about the pain of a woman who has just given birth to a stillborn? What about the pain of being raped/mugged/beaten? I do agree with you that some of these are perversions of man but the stillborn is not.

Hey man, if you have any more questions, I would be more than happy to discuss them.

On the issue of the stillborn child...The pain is a result of the parents love and compassion for the child. What kind of parents would they be if they did not wholeheartedly love and care for the child?

I must note something that I find very intresting, that is: The parents love a child SO much, a child they have not even seen, let alone lived with...I find it very intresting the way this works. Seems like the love comes from somewhere else...

This is a new thought for me...Care to discuss?

[Apocalypse]

MC? think more deeply about the stillborn situation. What kind of God would take a child before it was even born?

And as for the loving a child they haven't seen, Parental instinct. I'm a father so i know what im talking about if you wish to discuss it further.

[Marb]

About my previous post, one and a half page back, which some people used to feed this topic with discussions.

The-In my world, I am 'God'..
Note the ''-s surrounding God..
I was trying to say I am my own master, do what I want-without violating any laws or unwritten boundaries. (No religion involved what so ever.)

Whoever said I have a belief, that there is no God, is not right.
I was merely saying I have no opinion untill further judgement, the day I see the effects of higher spirits.

[Karmashock]

Karma, science will never understand the world completely. Induction is a process of falsification, not verification. We exclude false theories, not verify the true ones. Truth is beyond human reasoning, we can only reduce the number of falsehoods we state. Therefore, we will never know the ultimate truth, and never be able to tell if God exists.
absolutes?...

you say we're too flawed to ever know and yet you are sure we will never know...

How do you know?... I gave an infinite amount of time for it to happen... we could evolve a trillion times by then... who's to say?

In vast span of time we might well know all... it might take trillions of years... but who knows?
======================================
MC? think more deeply about the stillborn situation. What kind of God would take a child before it was even born?
You clearly know NOTHING about gods... some gods DEMAND child sacrifices... some require virgin hearts... Was not Abraham willing to sacrifice his child unto god in even the Christian religion?... he would have done it... God said no in that case...

As to general cruelty of the world, you prove doubly ignorant on this point.

First, Humanity was CAST OUT of Paradise. This is the cursed earth.
Second, how could there be sin/virtue without free will? And if there is free will, then there must be real consequences.

If a man murders a child then rapes its dead corpse, then the child must be vulnerable for the deed to be done.

God did not make man good or evil... he cast us into this world to choose.

You know the rules... there are no excuses.

This is just Christianity though... substitute another religion if you'd like... all of them balance in the end even funny Norse myths.

And as for the loving a child they haven't seen, Parental instinct. I'm a father so i know what im talking about if you wish to discuss it further.
What are you even talking about here? What does the love of a child have to do with God one way or another?... pigs love their children.

[Apocalypse]

You clearly know NOTHING about gods... some gods DEMAND child sacrifices... some require virgin hearts... Was not Abraham willing to sacrifice his child unto god in even the Christian religion?... he would have done it... God said no in that case...

As to general cruelty of the world, you prove doubly ignorant on this point.

First, Humanity was CAST OUT of Paradise. This is the cursed earth.
Second, how could there be sin/virtue without free will? And if there is free will, then there must be real consequences.

If a man murders a child then rapes its dead corpse, then the child must be vulnerable for the deed to be done.

God did not make man good or evil... he cast us into this world to choose.

You know the rules... there are no excuses.

This is just Christianity though... substitute another religion if you'd like... all of them balance in the end even funny Norse myths.


What are you even talking about here? What does the love of a child have to do with God one way or another?... pigs love their children.


Karma what the fuck? Don't fucking preach that 'THE GODS DEMAND IT' bullshit to me. I've heard all about that but seeing as we were talking about the Big man himself and not some other little nonexistent god they was no point in me bring it up. You gonna start talking about Zeus now? Shut the fuck up. So you'd happily worship a god you've never seen who would happily take your unborn child for no reason what so ever just for some priest to say ' god works in mysterious ways ' Why do people always have to make this kind of debate into an angry one? Humanity was Cast out? Utter crap.

And the parent thing if you actually read, was in reply to master chef who asked my thoughts on the issue of loving a child you haven't seen.

You talk of free will, No-one has any free will and you don't actually make any choices in life whatsoever, i'e what you did yesterday you were supposed to have done and nothing can change that just like nothing can actually change what you do tomorrow.

Karma im not insulting you. This is a DEBATE that is in the forum designed for DEBATING so please remember that when you call me ignorant.

[Ummon]

We're trying to tell you: religion is not a matter of debate, unless you consider it from a moral perspective. You can't go around and tell people your God doesn't exist, it's considered insulting. Especially since you don't know, and nobody else does. Leave to everyone his/her own faith.

[Karmashock]

Karma what the fuck? Don't fucking preach that 'THE GODS DEMAND IT' bullshit to me.
I didn't... read again...
you too can pass reading comprehension... just study your basics and work real hard.

I've heard all about that but seeing as we were talking about the Big man himself and not some other little nonexistent god they was no point in me bring it up. You gonna start talking about Zeus now?
Actually, I was talking more about Odin... but none of the gods are vulnerable to science.

So you'd happily worship a god you've never seen who would happily take your unborn child for no reason what so ever just for some priest to say ' god works in mysterious ways '
Why not?... according to you it will happen either way, so you might as well pick someone you like.

Furthermore, you're sill missing the point. We aren't in paradise and if our souls live on in the kingdom of heaven, then what's the harm of a child dying? The child gets a free ticket to heaven.

it remains painfully obvious that your depth of theological thinking could be measured with a microscope. Seriously... you haven't even done any deep thinking on religion at all... so I don't know why you expect me to respect your views... you just dismissed religion before you even thought about it.

Why do people always have to make this kind of debate into an angry one? Humanity was Cast out? Utter crap.
Says you... read the bible... the Christians and Jews believe it.

You talk of free will, No-one has any free will and you don't actually make any choices in life whatsoever, i'e what you did yesterday you were supposed to have done and nothing can change that just like nothing can actually change what you do tomorrow.
Ah... here we see a common pattern. Most people that reject religion get so emotionally fucked in the process that they become fatalists, like yourself, or emotionalists. That is people that think everything is fated and can't be changed... and people that think 'emotions' are best resource for morality respectively.

The first is just a sad blind man... the second has devolved into animalism.

Karma im not insulting you. This is a DEBATE that is in the forum designed for DEBATING so please remember that when you call me ignorant.

I don't call you ignorant lightly... it's NOT something I throw at just anyone. You're attacking thousands of years of culture, tradition, and philosophy with a toothpick of an argument and you think it's enough.

Not only does that make you ignorant, but it makes you quite arrogant as well.

I don't say this with the intention of starting a flame war... that is not a flame... just my opinion of your statements thus far.

Show a little respect for something neither of us will ever completely understand even if we dedicated our entire lives to the pursuit of it. ;)

Love and Peace, Karmashock.

[Outrageous Cheek]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Apocalypse
MC? think more deeply about the stillborn situation. What kind of God would take a child before it was even born?

And as for the loving a child they haven't seen, Parental instinct. I'm a father so i know what im talking about if you wish to discuss it further.





Apoc, bro, who are we to question our Creator's discisions? He knows what's best.

God sees everything; He sees stuff that we cannot see, such as the future...He doesn't make his decisions on the basis of emotions, he only does what is best. After all he can see everything and he bases his actions on what is best for us, whether we like it at the time or not. We don't know when he is doing something that may seem bad (to us) at the time, but will in the long run be much more beneficial, to us or our circumstances.

We are often nearsighted, and get angry or sad when we don't get what we want...We often make decisions or judgements based on emotion...(This is rash, Remember how they always tell soldiers not to make decisions, in battle, based on emotion? Because putting emotions first in an important matter, can lead to some bad choices)

Think of the situation where somebody breaks their arm and the bone heals crooked. The doctor will make the choice of re-breaking the arm, in order to fix it properly...The doctor made that wise decision, NOT based on whether you are comfortable with it, or like it (Because it is going to hurt, man!), but because he sees fit to do so in order to render your with a fully functional arm, in the future. You would be stupid to argue with the doctor, he knows more than you, (respectfully).

[Ummon]

Karma, by the way, we know that we will never know, it's called Godel's Theorem. Go check for it. :thumbup

[Shackled Phoenix]

I just want to ask, why do people expect god to stop war, pain, suffering, etc. when

A. God created man to be care takers of this world as it is said in genesis.

B. We betrayed this sacred duty of god.

God created a perfect world, devoid of pain/suffering, and placed us in it to act as care takers. This was called the Garden of Eden. God then proceeded to punish us for eating of the foribidden fruit by kicking us out of this perfect, painless world (basically). If we are still undergoing this punishment, until all man earns the right to return, why should god prevent our pain?

The idea of a totally benevolent, merciful god is in truth a fairly new idea of the church, only a few hundred years old really. Even in the bible god has shown himself to not be completely merciful and forgiving, nor even totally benevolent (case of job).
Even in the ten commandments, and other places in the bible god has shown that punishment is right. the quote from the bible "an eye for an eye" is god saying that if a man takes from you an eye, you have the right to take his eye, and ONLY his eye.
In the ten commandments, the actual translation of one is "Thou shalt not murder." because in the old language there were 3 words for kill, one meaning murder, one meaning execute, and the third being the generalised word "kill" the one used means "murder" which leaves executions as Okay in god's eyes.

man was punished for it's betrayel of god, and as of yet, it has never been recinded.

"If god exists, why does he allow us to suffer." There, i've answered this poor argument against the existence of god.

And no, I am neither christian, nor a believer of god. I am a seeker of truth, and the truth so far revealed to my eyes, is that I do not know whether god exists, only that I need to continue to wait for an answer.

[Karmashock]

you still don't seem to grasp the span of time I'm allowing for... the level of scientific and deductive evolution.

There is a loophole in his proof...
That is, you are right "unless one adopts principles of reasoning so complex that their internal consistency is as open to doubt as that of the systems themselves". Remember... at this point we might well be slimy brain creatures with penis tentacles squelching across the floor... many things will have changed.

Lastly... using the term "we" is likely over stated... I doubt many people here would have been aware of that.

L&P, Karmashock.

[Outrageous Cheek]

Very well said Pheonix!

God IS mercifull and forgiving.

I shall explain.

He mercifull as in: the sins we, as naturally sinful creatures, commit (plentifully on a daily basis) are egregious and deserve nothing less than severe punishment. Such as death. Yet the Lord preserves our lives ( 1) because He has a purpose for us. 2) Because He loves us) because he is mercifull. Allthough! He DOES punish us. (I'll explain in my next paragraph)

He is Forgiving as in: When we sin, He is willing to forgive us...But He does punish us for our sins. After all isn't that what we deserve? AND, when He punishes us, He does also does that because if He didn't, how else would we learn from our mistakes??


-Chefferoni & Cheese (And I there I go, ruining my post with this imature name lol)

[Shackled Phoenix]

Well when i said he's not merciful and forgiving, i meant it in an extreme degree. Like the country song says, "it's aaaallllll how you look at it."

[Ummon]

you still don't seem to grasp the span of time I'm allowing for... the level of scientific and deductive evolution.

There is a loophole in his proof...
That is, you are right "unless one adopts principles of reasoning so complex that their internal consistency is as open to doubt as that of the systems themselves". Remember... at this point we might well be slimy brain creatures with penis tentacles squelching across the floor... many things will have changed.

Lastly... using the term "we" is likely over stated... I doubt many people here would have been aware of that.

L&P, Karmashock.

With "we" I meant humanity as a whole, of course.

The thing you refer to inside the brackets, is undoable. The reason why we cannot have a complete working mathematical system which discusses its premises is inherent to mathematics. The combination of induction and deduction (experimental science and mathematical tools) might simulate that process, but does not reproduce it completely. Besides, there's a limit to the number of experiences we can have, and only an infinite number of experiences/experiments would allow us to verify every hypothesis and reformulate our premises.

Although I know that you are a future economist, and hence your mathematics is much more advanced than mine, I'm keeping equations out of this, since this is an open message board.

Always open to objections though.

[Apocalypse]

I'm reluctant to continue this with you Karma because i find your views somewhat confusing?

What your saying is that because i don't believe in God, i'm ignorant and arrogant yet you must be so much superior because you believe in God, who you yourself even admitted your not sure if he truely exists? If God is almighty and 'everywhere' then i should be able to see him rather than just look him up in a book!

MC, i respect doctors and their decisions because they are real people. Who are we to question our creator? Now you just sound like those priests who say ' god works in mysterious ways' that is not an answer to anything. My creator was my mother and father who decided to get jiggy with it one day. God did not put me here. I'm so tempted to use the 'If gods see's all and knows all then why does he not show himself and defend himself?' but you would probably come out with 'God does not need to defend himself because he is god almighty and answers to no-one' which is again a poor answer if you do believe that.

Karma, as you said religion has been around for thousands of years but man and indeed life itself has been around much longer than that. God is man-made fiction nothing else.

Karma you may call me ignorant if you wish, it doesn't bother me if you wish to be so blind as to follow some God you don't have all the answers about. I call you brain washed to follow any kind of religion whatsoever. How can i respect people who blindly follow a lie?

[Outrageous Cheek]

Apoc man, where did you parents come from? Your grandparents...Where did they come from? Your great-grandparents...Etc.


This goes on untill you get to the point where you have to ask youself...Where did man come from?

Where do YOU believe man came from Apoc? What are your views? I am curious.

[Outrageous Cheek]

MC, i respect doctors and their decisions because they are real people.

You go to what? 1? 2 doctors? You haven't see all the rest of them. Yet you still believe they are others out there. Not to mention believing that they are real people. ^_^

Respectfully, as always.

[Apocalypse]

You go to what? 1? 2 doctors? You haven't see all the rest of them. Yet you still believe they are others out there. Not to mention believing that they are real people. ^_^

Respectfully, as always.


Your playing 'tit for tat' here, of course there are more than one doctor, they do have collages and universities for this kind of thing so i can safely assume there is more doctors out there. What your trying to argue here (and i do see the point your trying make) is that why would i believe there are more doctors even tho i haven't seen them yet i don't believe in god for the very same reason....... well god isn't sitting behind a desk somewhere telling people they have cancer or shit.

My parents come from their parents and this will continue as far back as the human tree of life will allow it. On your on view who is the parent of God? and don't say he has no parents or he is the beginning because something would have to come before him.

[Karmashock]

With "we" I meant humanity as a whole, of course.
Perhaps, but we will not always be, from a zoological stand point, “human”. We will evolve and doors may well open that were once closed.

The thing you refer to inside the brackets, is undoable. The reason why we cannot have a complete working mathematical system which discusses its premises is inherent to mathematics. The combination of induction and deduction (experimental science and mathematical tools) might simulate that process, but does not reproduce it completely. Besides, there's a limit to the number of experiences we can have, and only an infinite number of experiences/experiments would allow us to verify every hypothesis and reformulate our premises.
I didn’t say it would be easy or that I knew how it would be done… I AND the theorist are just making the point that it’s theoretically possible, if extremely difficult and ‘near’ impossible. We may have FTL transport in the future… and yet physicists are very dubious on the subject.

You must make allowances for the things you don’t know even about the concept of knowledge itself… and the vast amount of time I have allowed for… you can’t ‘know’ this with certainty. To claim to is an arrogance that is beneath you.

Although I know that you are a future economist, and hence your mathematics is much more advanced than mine, I'm keeping equations out of this, since this is an open message board.
something as simple as compound interest would let you understand what I’m talking about.

Here is a figure for you… if the Indians that sold the island of Manhattan nearly 300 years ago had taken that value and increased it by, I think, about 5~7 percent every year, they would be able to buy the island back today.

Now, 5~7 percent growth is extremely high… only industrializing economies can pull that like India or China… but the point is that small things can yield massive results.

This is just a metaphor… but my point is that we don’t know enough about ‘knowing’ to know what you ‘can’ know.

Always open to objections though.
All you need to be to be open is to drop the absolutes. Economics IS a science… but it is not an ‘exact’ science because economics is too messy to predict with perfect precision and there are things you will be unable to predict. It is therefore a science of ‘trends’ and tight relationships with loose results.

All I’m asking for are the required modifiers… the tiny loopholes that allow you to say something with great certainty while still leaving open a tiny hole for the extremely unlikely to ooze through.
======================================

I'm reluctant to continue this with you Karma because i find your views somewhat confusing?

What your saying is that because i don't believe in God, i'm ignorant and arrogant yet you must be so much superior because you believe in God, who you yourself even admitted your not sure if he truely exists?
I do believe in God, but I don’t ‘know’ God exists. I have faith and not it as faith, while you have faith that God doesn’t exist and call it knowledge. You know no more then I and yet pretend to be superior to religious people because you have faith in another thing.

I do not claim superiority to you on the grounds of faith. I claim superiority on the grounds that I know what I do and do not know.

I know that I don’t know if God exists; you pretend to know while only having faith.

If God is almighty and 'everywhere' then i should be able to see him rather than just look him up in a book!
Only if he wants you to… Again you claim to understand gods… this is arrogance. Why should gods obey ‘your’ logic? As I have previously stated, god(s) may prefer free will and faith to destiny and certainty.

If god appeared to all of us clearly and undeniably there would be no faith. If God prevented the world from being a nasty place then there would be no free will.

You also claim to ‘know’ that god would be kind if he existed… how do you know?… if we were to go through all the gods and put them in the kind or nasty category you would find that there are far more in the nasty box then the nice box. So what do you base your ‘knowledge’ on? You base it on atheist dogma… the scripture of those that believe god does not exist in a organized and uniform way that is a blackbody or negative religion… the reaction to other faiths instead of a faith in and of itself. And thus it is as useless as a mold that will never have iron poured into it… a block of carefully crafted nothing.

MC, i respect doctors and their decisions because they are real people. Who are we to question our creator?
you’ve questioned the actions of our supposed creators often… we are human to do so… it does not make us right or wrong to do so… it is in our nature to be curious.

My creator was my mother and father who decided to get jiggy with it one day.
You use the word creator too loosely. Your mother did not create you. Your mother ‘had’ you. If she had created you, she would have been making decisions like “should it be a boy or girl”… or “should it have wings or flippers”… she had no control over what happened… all she controlled was that it ‘did’ happen… and in the past there was not even that choice… it was just a matter of attraction. One animal likes another animal and via sexual attraction they couple… separated from guiding instincts all animals except humans will just abandon the slimy thing or eat it.

God did not put me here. I'm so tempted to use the 'If gods see's all and knows all then why does he not show himself and defend himself?'
Do you really think god to be so petty as to be threatened by that question? Gods are masters of universal creation… it is not you that sustain them, but they that sustain you. They dreamed you up and so you are… not the other way around… at least… in religion.


but you would probably come out with 'God does not need to defend himself because he is god almighty and answers to no-one' which is again a poor answer if you do believe that.
A poor answer because it is illogical or a poor answer because your faith disagrees? There is no point in arguing with faith. My intention is not to make you a Christian, but instead to make you realize that by saying something you have no knowledge of does not exist you are the SAME as any religious person on earth.

You are OF the faithful… and you faith is in the void.

Karma, as you said religion has been around for thousands of years but man and indeed life itself has been around much longer than that. God is man-made fiction nothing else.
How do you know?… Again, a god could create an ancient universe in a second. I could have been around for no longer then the snap of a god’s fingers and yet be trillions of years old. Why not? Do gods have to bow to time and space? Don’t be silly.

Karma you may call me ignorant if you wish, it doesn't bother me if you wish to be so blind as to follow some God you don't have all the answers about.
I am not blind; I am open. I know what I do not know and take the path that is safest. You don’t know if god exists or not. You have faith that he does not. I don’t know, so I do what is most logical… I give god a little belief because there is nothing lost by doing so and potentially a great deal gained. What do you gain by not believing?… nothing.


I call you brain washed to follow any kind of religion whatsoever. How can i respect people who blindly follow a lie?
This just demonstrates your flagrant hypocrisy. You’re more brain washed then I am. You’re just puppeting the arguments of other men. Everything I’ve said here, even if its been said by others, I’ve arrived at via my own deduction.

I was once an atheist… but it is a cold and insubstantial place. So I stepped into something a little warmer that didn’t remarkable change anything while potentially having great rewards.



Here is my point.

You don’t know god exists or not.
Science cannot prove it either way… and ‘probably’ never will be able to.

If you claim god exists, then you do so on belief or faith.
If you claim god doesn’t exist, then you do so on belief or faith.

The only path that doesn’t brand you of the faithful is being ‘undecided’ or ‘unsure’.

Agnostics are the only ones that aren’t affiliated.

Atheism is just another religion. You are no more correct or logical then any religious person on the planet. You may believe ‘your’ religion is best and all others are lies… but what religious person doesn’t believe that? Agnostics make no such claim which is one of the many things that brands them as the only none religious group… they are not religious because they have no faith… not even that they are right.


Either become an agnostic or cut the pretension… it’s pathetic.

Love and Peace, Karmashock.

[Apocalypse]

Tell me where i claimed to be an athiest? To brand myself with such a title would imply i believe in something wether or not it be god. My title is 'human being'.

I'm attacking you just as much as you are attacking me. Tell me if at first you didn't believe in God then why do you believe in him now?

[Apocalypse]

Do you really think god to be so petty as to be threatened by that question? Gods are masters of universal creation… it is not you that sustain them, but they that sustain you. They dreamed you up and so you are… not the other way around… at least… in religion.

Like i said ......... Brainwashed.

[Karmashock]

Tell me where i claimed to be an athiest? To brand myself with such a title would imply i believe in something wether or not it be god. My title is 'human being'.
Now you're just being sad.

You proclaimed "there is no god" this alone makes you an atheist.

End of that stupidity.

I'm attacking you just as much as you are attacking me.
I'm not attacking you, I'm attacking your arrogance. I'm attacking your presumption that your opinion is more valid then anyone else's regardless of the fact that you know nothing more then they do.
Tell me if at first you didn't believe in God then why do you believe in him now?
I grew up in an area that doesn't put much stock in god(s)... that was my upbringing.

However, what i realized was that there was no loss to putting a little faith in god(s)... why not? Call it growing up.
===================================
========================
Do you really think god to be so petty as to be threatened by that question? Gods are masters of universal creation… it is not you that sustain them, but they that sustain you. They dreamed you up and so you are… not the other way around… at least… in religion.

Like i said ......... Brainwashed.
Your comment has only demonstrated your deep ignorance on the topic. I'm not brainwashed, I just know 'what' a god 'in theory' is. It's called knowing the meaning of a word. The fact that you're attacking something that you don't even know how to define only makes your already pathetic argument all the more wretchedly sad.

You're so fanatical about your faith that I don't know why I'm arguing with you... arguing with fundamentalists is basically pointless by definition.

Anyway, if I said "vampires are killed by sunlight" that would be just as true in this sense as me saying the above statement. You can't say something isn't a vampire because took a bullet to the head and the wound closed instantly with the creatures only replying with a toothy grin. Likewise you can't say something isn't a god because it doesn't make logical sense. Gods don't obey logic... they're BY DEFINITION above logic. They don't respond to physics, science, or chemistry. You can take out your compass and work all the geometry on them until you die of old age... it's pointless… they could change the value of pi and you wouldn’t even notice. God(s) by definition could 'if' they exist change the very nature of the universe at will. Time, space, logic, history, emotions, will... everything can be created, changed, or destroyed at a whim.

That is what it means to be a god. Saying that gods don't exist because you think the world is cruel or the gods would be more formal... well... that's irrelevant.

You've, thus far, demonstrated a NEGATIVE level of theological knowledge. You'll have to unlearn a few things before you'll even be able to understand what faith is. For one such as you to look upon thousands of years of philosophical reasoning and dismiss it without even understanding it is the height of arrogance. That you can't see this makes you ignorant. That you're generally puppeting the thoughts of other people without thinking through any of this on your own brands you tool (I don’t use this word in the sloppy way that some people use it. I use it to mean a thoughtless implement of another’s will.).

I'm sorry (I truly am)... I don't throw these terms around lightly... but the fact is that you're a deluded zealot and don't even know it. Open up to the possibility… admit you don’t know… or remain silly.

Love and peace, Karmashock.

[Apocalypse]

Arrogant, zealot, silly, ignorant.......... LMFGDAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You are defending this so much. You call me rude yet every other sentence is folloed by an insult?! You are a god damn Fanatic and a bad one at that. You think by bringing these arguments to the table that you've won? God is above logic, God is almighty, God is above you, God is above me? Please enough with your bullshit. If you think believing in God makes you more intelligent than me then go for it pal but this is not a spitting contest.

I'm not an Athiest because i don't have a belief of any kind. The reason why i'm still arguing with you is because your attempts at trying to argue back are at best.....pahetic. You sound like a bible basher, no thruth in what you say just mindless properganda followed by a 'your so ignorant, your beneath me' you have proven nothing, you haven't even come up with any facts. And all you have used to counter me is silly hear'say shite and opinions. Karma with all due respect go fuck yourself. I'm sick of the way your forcing your views with the feeling that your more superior. Get off your fucking pedestal.

[|AiTd|-Shepherd]

Damn, this topic is getting rough.

[Karmashock]

You are a god damn Fanatic and a bad one at that.
If I'm fanatically anything, it's moderate.

If you think believing in God makes you more intelligent than me then go for it pal but this is not a spitting contest.
This is a distortion. You're intentionally trying to shift the argument as you've already lost. I stated that you have 'faith' that god doesn't exist, which makes you the same as someone that 'has' faith that god exists... at least as far as credibility is concerned.

This was not about making you look stupid. This was about knocking you off your high horse. You were pretending to be above people that believed in God because you believe that god doesn't exist.

That is all.

I'm not an Athiest because i don't have a belief of any kind.
False.
My take on this.

There is no God.
In the future please at least work to have a competent memory.

You sound like a bible basher, no thruth in what you say just mindless properganda followed by a 'your so ignorant, your beneath me' you have proven nothing, you haven't even come up with any facts.
Nothing could be farther from the truth. I have complete respect for all faiths including atheism. I just refuse to have any faith going around saying that it's better then the rest or that it isn't a faith when it is.

I don't think I've quoted any scripture and I wouldn't see the point in doing so. I've only pointed out the many places where you clearly know nothing about religion in even a basic sense. This would be fine if it weren't for hte fact that you seem to think yourself worth listening to. You're like a blind man commenting on a painting. It's stupid.


And all you have used to counter me is silly hear'say shite and opinions.
Actually, I've been countering you with what hte general consensus about what gods are. You keep thinking they obey physical laws. Countering that is not 'bible thumping' it's 'gods 101'. Gods don't obey your silly rules so you can't invalidate them on the grounds taht they don't obey them. Gods are by definition outside these laws... or "super natural"

Karma with all due respect go fuck yourself.
Yet another rather sad difference between us is that I tend to actually comment specifically on what you are in error about and I don't do so to be hurtful. I called you arrogant, not because it might hurt you, but because it was true. You've just sunk down to the level of high school with your silly meaningless insult.

You insult yourself with every breath.

I'm sick of the way your forcing your views with the feeling that your more superior. Get off your fucking pedestal.
Ironic considering that's the ONLY thing you have been doing in this thread from the VERY FIRST POST!

Shall I recount?... I shall.
My take on this.

There is no God. MC you claim your religous because you worship your creator, i worship my creator too, with all the love i can..... you know why?

Creator = Mother and Father
Not God. God did not put you here neither will he welcome you at the great pearly gates because he (and the gates) do not exist. People claim to have proof that God exists yet there is none.

'God is the name for mother on the lips and heart of all children'

Do you consider this respectful? No... it's highly offensive and derogatory.
it may be a flat statement but it's more credible than anything you can come up pro-God.
I think this just about puts the cherry on the sundae. You have no high ground... you've dug your grave... now lie in it.

We'll let the wind cover you up.

[Apocalypse]

I was wrong to insult you, i admit that and my last post was more a rant than anything else. Uncalled for and i duely apologise. I was not at my best this morning.


However i have some questions,

You tell me i've lost the argument 1) exactly which part of this did i lose, did someone just show me God for what God truly is? Did someone give me enough proof to make me eat my own words?

You say i have faith in the fact there is no God, Wrong I don't have any faith Because I 'know' there isn't a God (I already know and await your reply for this bit)

In the second to last quote you made, you say it is disrespectful? I'm wondering (honestly) in what way is it disrespectful to consider my own parents 'the creator(s)'

You also mention (forgive me for not countering these points in order) that God doesn't obey my silly rules. 1) The rules you say are silly just happen to effect everyone of us on a daily basis and effect us far more than God ever could. 2) Technically (I'm leaving this open) everything has to obey the rules of life so what makes God any different (and please i ask for a more detailed answer than 'God is above your silly rules)?

I insulted you and you have insulted me, i have apologised to you and i wish to continue this as i do find it interesting how you keep countering me and how this is going back and forth. Lets not forget that without hard proof I'm right in my opnion, you however don't need proof because you have your faith but don't think just because you replied with what you have doesn't make you the intellectual and myself the scum. If you find my views insulting then you have a problem because my views are straight forward yet all you have really done is counter me with a lot baseless stuff.

For example when you say God doesn't bow to your rules, that is a pretty definite statement......yet how can you possible back that up?

[Ummon]

Of course Karma, with regard to your objection to me, we cannot completely EXCLUDE that someday our descendants will be performing miracles, just as we cannot exclude that God exists, but my point is exactly, that this whole issue is beyond the boundaries of human reasoning as it is, and since now we are humans, for sure WE will never know. :thumbup

[LardGibs]

what if our uberdescendants build powerful telescopes that travel faster than the speed of light and measure our subatomic structure from zillions of lightyears away, and reincarnate us?


:rofl: :fuctupshi

[Ummon]

Provided that they reincarnate me in a nice villa with hundreds of complacent woman-slaves, I have no objection. :nod:

Although seriously, that wouldn't be me, just someone who's exactly like me.

[|AiTd|-Shepherd]

All I can say to Apoc is,you dont have to believe there is a god, but you cant say there isnt a god. I personally go to church and Ive miracles and heard tesimonials that proves there is a god. Also, if you know anything about the bible, they ahve found evidence of Noahs Ark existing under ice in Russia, and some charriots under the red see where Moses parted the waters (from gods power).

Ive also seen satanic rituals. If there is an evil one (satan), then there is surely a god or nothing good would ever some of this world. If you read the 10 commandments in the bible and really think about them, would we have nearly as many problem as we do today? The bible makes perfect since if you understand it, but not everyone folows it...

[Karmashock]

You tell me i've lost the argument 1) exactly which part of this did i lose, did someone just show me God for what God truly is? Did someone give me enough proof to make me eat my own words?
There were at least 4 sub arguments... but I'll throw out the two freshest in my memory.

On the point of "which is more credible, atheism or <random religion>" you lost.
I demonstrated that they are equally credible.

On the point of "am I an atheist" you lost.
I demonstrated that you are in fact an atheist.

You say i have faith in the fact there is no God, Wrong I don't have any faith Because I 'know' there isn't a God (I already know and await your reply for this bit)
I will continue to read "know" as "believe" until you have some concrete proof. The simple fact is that there is no possible way you could "know" any more then a religious person could "know" there is a god. You and they believe.

You are the same.

In the second to last quote you made, you say it is disrespectful? I'm wondering (honestly) in what way is it disrespectful to consider my own parents 'the creator(s)'
I'm not hashing that out, you're just trying to waste my time proving something that is obvious.

ANYONE HERE WOULD SAY IT WAS RUDE!

You also mention (forgive me for not countering these points in order) that God doesn't obey my silly rules. 1) The rules you say are silly just happen to effect everyone of us on a daily basis and effect us far more than God ever could. 2) Technically (I'm leaving this open) everything has to obey the rules of life so what makes God any different (and please i ask for a more detailed answer than 'God is above your silly rules)?
Again, SUPER NATURAL! As in "above" nature or the laws of the universe. Gods MAKE the laws of the universe. In many religions they even spell this out... they say "before <whoever> there was no up or down; no in or out; no me or you; no light or dark" Gods via religion MADE the laws of nature... and they have the power to change them at will. In fact, they could be changing them right now and you'd never know... they could do it by changing them ex post facto or just altering all record of them ever being different... ie everyone's memory and writing on the matter... either would be very easy for a god.


The simple fact is that you underestimate just 'how' powerful a god is. Think of a god like a super programmer and the universe as game world. There is NOTHING that the God can't do.

I insulted you and you have insulted me
Don't compare the two. I made a judgment which was not flattering to you and you tried to hurt my feelings. This is all internet to me so you might as well not bother with that. However, saying we are equal here is not true. You are arrogant and ignorant when it comes to gods and religion. This is just a product of your faith. Most atheists are just as ignorant and arrogant about other religions. Many religions think that believers in other faiths will go to hell or not find peace or something... atheists just think other religions are stupid... it's all the same thing.

i have apologised to you and i wish to continue this as i do find it interesting how you keep countering me and how this is going back and forth.
Good

Lets not forget that without hard proof I'm right in my opnion
Nope. Without hard proof it's a draw. A draw is fine with me.

Agnostics are people that have decided to leave it at a draw. The religious are those that have 'faith' that gods exist. Atheists are those that have 'faith' that they don't.

Be an agnostic and accept the draw or be among the faithful.

you however don't need proof because you have your faith but don't think just because you replied with what you have doesn't make you the intellectual and myself the scum.
The only thing that puts you beneath me is that you think you're right when you have no proof. I honestly don't know and have decided that 'all things being equal' why not? There is no harm in believing in a god, so I do.

You seem to think that there is something out there that makes you right me a fool. The only point I'm making is that you have NOTHING that makes you right. You just have your faith... just like everyone else.

My point is that you shouldn't pretend to be above the people with faith on any other grounds THEN your faith. Don't pretend that science backs you up, because it doesn't.

You are as alone as the faithful 'if' god doesn't exist... if god does then they have god backing them up... somewhere.

If you're right then you go to the void; if you're wrong you go to the void.

If I'm right I go to my god; if I'm wrong I go to the void.

I'd only be an atheist if I found the void attractive.

If you find my views insulting then you have a problem because my views are straight forward yet all you have really done is counter me with a lot baseless stuff.
Take this back. You apologized BECAUSE you were insulting. So we both agree that you WERE rude. Further, don't pretend that I haven't been countering you. That's just silly. This is obviously the first good discussion you ever had on religion and you’re at a disadvantage as you don’t actually know how religious people think. I do know how atheists think… once you understand the terrain you should do better.

For example when you say God doesn't bow to your rules, that is a pretty definite statement......yet how can you possible back that up?
The same way that I back up that vampires are killed by sunlight, silver bullets kill werewolves, and ghosts can walk through walls. Gods are BY DEFINTION 'above' the laws of nature. They made the rules.

Expecting Gods to follow the rules of nature is like expecting vampires to 'need water' in the desert... it's stupid... now the innocent blood of mortals?... sure... but water?... if anything water would hurt them (vampires are a good example because no other entity has so many known or assumed rules).

See what I'm saying?... Whether gods exist or not, gods don't follow those rules. The only thing that I can think that gods do follow is their word. I can't think of a single god that has ever broken his/her word. They may be overly literal or bend the word… but never break it. In many religions it is in fact THEE word of god that holds the whole universe together... ie 'rocks are heavy because I say so'...
================================
Of course Karma, with regard to your objection to me, we cannot completely EXCLUDE that someday our descendants will be performing miracles, just as we cannot exclude that God exists, but my point is exactly, that this whole issue is beyond the boundaries of human reasoning as it is, and since now we are humans, for sure WE will never know. :thumbup
I’m just nailing you for using absolutes… :)
=================================
Provided that they reincarnate me in a nice villa with hundreds of complacent woman-slaves, I have no objection. :nod:

Although seriously, that wouldn't be me, just someone who's exactly like me.
By then our species will have 3 sexes and only two of them will be sentient. :p

The first two will be male and female though neither will incubate the fetus… the third sex will only serve as a womb and will be held in common by the community and shared…

So in fact, you won’t want slave females… you’ll want hyper able super girls… the womb sex would definitely be something that you’d want held in bondage though…

This arrangement allows all sentient individuals to remain at peak activity at all times AND allows the child to be incubated properly as the womb sex doesn’t walk upright or have to birth the child with a smaller head… this allows their off spring to be born with the ability to walk right after birth… and begin learning words after about a week. Some cultures however engineer the fetus to be born with genetic memory (rather common, at this point it’s been done for millions of years)… so they in fact don’t need an education at all… just career experience.


Love and peace, Karmashock.

[Ummon]

That's the plot from an episode of Star Trek Enterprise... :dur:

And Karma, you should try to concentrate on the meaning of what people say in a debate, not your own thoughts. You miss the true understanding of reality on many levels in many occasions, and it will get embarassing in life if you don't do something about it. No insult intended.

Sometimes your reasoning is flawless, sometimes it's not. One example, you say I am using absolutes. But to state that there are no absolutes, is an absolute. So you are using them too. Should you nail yourself?

[Karmashock]

really?... I don't watch ST... I've read some SF in my time though... ST is just too fucking stupid for me though... the original is fun though... not any more intelligent... just amusing when Kirk shags the alien princess.

As to meaning... give me an example unless you think my call on god being known or not is an example?

I am very careful about my logic... I won't defend absolutes... there is an exception to everything... even that statement... ie there cannot be an exception to "there is an exception to everything" thereby making it in and of itself an exception.

You have to think in three dimensions which has nothing to do with space... it's about coming to many different conclusions with all of them being circumstantially true and sometimes contradictory.

If you want logic to work in the real world its going to have to be a very very complex form of logic... for it to be infallible it must recognize that all things including itself are fallible... and recognizing that it compensates... but that compensation won't be perfect so there must be a correction for that and a correction for that correction ad infinitum.

What kind of math could looks at itself between two mirrors reflecting each other and tell you how many there are… and be right?

[/<yle]

Apoc, i have never seen a million dollars, but i know it exists. Thus, it is the same for God. You dont always have to percieve something to know it exists.

[Burned]

All I can say to Apoc is,you dont have to believe there is a god, but you cant say there isnt a god. I personally go to church and Ive miracles and heard tesimonials that proves there is a god. Also, if you know anything about the bible, they ahve found evidence of Noahs Ark existing under ice in Russia, and some charriots under the red see where Moses parted the waters (from gods power).

Ive also seen satanic rituals. If there is an evil one (satan), then there is surely a god or nothing good would ever some of this world. If you read the 10 commandments in the bible and really think about them, would we have nearly as many problem as we do today? The bible makes perfect since if you understand it, but not everyone folows it...

If u can say there is a god, why cant we say there isnt one?Testimonials? yeh sure, are u sure that person wasnt drunk?Found noahs ark? comon, dont tell me u really believe that is noahs ark...

To believe in god or not is a choice, most of the ppl that believe in god they believe in god because they feel it helps them, they feel that in their worst moment, sum1 will always be with them.

What i dont understand is why do u ppl think u can say there is a god, but we cant say that there isnt a god? >:(

[Burned]

Apoc, i have never seen a million dollars, but i know it exists. Thus, it is the same for God. You dont always have to percieve something to know it exists.


U got the proof it exists...U can see a 100 dollars paper, u can just imagine loads of them together, if i see gods hand, then i could imagine its full body...

[/<yle]

I see the world, i see life. I quote darwin in saying what is the probablility of the development of the eye? near nil. Yet almost every animal has eyes. If we look at the big bang, that suggests that there was a point in time where everything was set in motion, as if like a bell. Where did that star come from? Why are the galaxys ever expanding faster and faster and not slowing? God is a metaphysical force outside of time. You cannot totaly discount the fact that he is not there.

[Karmashock]

If u can say there is a god, why cant we say there isnt one?Testimonials? yeh sure, are u sure that person wasnt drunk?Found noahs ark? comon, dont tell me u really believe that is noahs ark...

To believe in god or not is a choice, most of the ppl that believe in god they believe in god because they feel it helps them, they feel that in their worst moment, sum1 will always be with them.

What i dont understand is why do u ppl think u can say there is a god, but we cant say that there isnt a god? >:(
You're missing the point Burned. I'm agreeing with you, but from the other side.

I'm saying: If you can say there isn't a god, why can't I say there is one?

I'm saying that the two are the SAME. Atheists are no more or less credible then religious people. They have faith in the non-existence of god. There is no science behind that.
------------------------
As to biblical relics popping up... I really really doubt it. Frankly, this whole kick that the evangelicals are going on about proving god through science is retarded. It's not the fault of the average guy as they don't have control over what their leaders do... and ALL groups tend to play follow the leader... but the fact of the matter is that religion IS NOT THREATENED BY SCIENCE! Atheism threatens Christianity, but atheism is a religion too! So deal with it as such... If Islam were taking people away from Christ, would the churches go looking for holy relics? Of course not! You’d talk about the differing philosophical views… you’d talk about morality… you’d talk about culture… you’d talk about all the things that religion actually understands. Going after science is what the atheists want you to do. If you accept science as their shield then you’ve just made them bullet proof. You have to separate them from science… at which point they’re dead.

Looking for Jesus’ DNA is silly... if you found it, and it really was Jesus’... and Jesus really was a god, then why would that DNA be special? Lets say you find a 4000 year old boat in the desert (I have no idea how long ago the ‘flood’ happened. I assume that it’s significantly less then 6000 years as that’s supposed to be the age of the world.)… How would you prove that it was Noah’s? There is no way that there wasn’t divine power running all through that thing… even if it was massive the animal dung alone would make the boat unbearable in a day. So if god’s power was making some small boat able to carry all the animals in creation, then it will not convince the modern world that it was noah’s boat unless it still glows with divine power.

If anything you’re hurting yourself by making it seem like you can be so easily proven or disproven by science.


As funky as the Mormons are, they're far more sensible about this sort of thing. They go door to door at a certain age... like 18 years old or something... and try to spread the word of their faith... most people are just rude to them... but they smile and go to the next door willing to turn the other cheek to the next person... they have a very supportive community so they tend to go to other cities and stay for free at the homes of other followers of the church... At the very least they get to travel and be on their own a bit. They don't argue with science either. They challenge nothing it says, they just say what their teachings say... and when it comes to policy, they don't bitch and moan, they just vote... period.

The Mormons are weird... their religion is really one of the most crazy ones out there... but they're among the nicest people you could meet... and they at least get the religion argument.

Science trying to attack religion is like watching a tiger attack a shark. Same thing when religion attacks science... only it's the shark beaching itself in a pathetic attempt at getting a mouth full of tiger.

By their vary nature they're immune to the other. Science = physical; Religion = metaphysical... neither can hurt nor support the other.
======================
I see the world, i see life. I quote darwin in saying what is the probablility of the development of the eye? near nil.
Actually the eye is very understandable. We can trace the evolution of it through lesser lifeforms. The eye is just bit of brain tissue that pinches off and develops light sensings cells. The eye is NOT perfect; it is just pretty.
Design flaws:
Blind spot somewhere in the eye
vison upside down (corrected by brain)
Area of vision small (compsated by moving the eye around rapidly and having the brain tell you that things it hasn't seen in awhile havn't changed.)
Lens often distorts either by birth or by age (corrected by brain but without intervention might result in effective blindness.)
Connections to brain poorly constructed so that they sometimes detach.


There are LOTS of these... If you want to see a really primative eye, then look at flat worms. They have tiny eyes that only sense degrees of light... not enough to put a picture together. Frankly a good video camera is WAY better then your eyes... the difference between teh two pictures is that your brain is AWSOME at fixing things or worst case getting you to ignore things when they get bad. Cateracts are a good example... people that get that have vision that slowly, over the years, turns orange... kind of like looking through rusted glass... They honestly don't even notice until it gets really really chronic... at this point the distortion is visible to people that just look at their eyes.

If we look at the big bang, that suggests that there was a point in time where everything was set in motion, as if like a bell. Where did that star come from? Why are the galaxys ever expanding faster and faster and not slowing?
Actually, there are a lot of theories... the big bang is actually an snear at the term BECAUSE it gives religious people something to hold on to... There are in fact many theories and many of them have multiple cosmic explosions... As to the expansion of the galaxy, that would most likely have to do with teh fact that we know just about nothing about the formation of the universe. We have theories, data, and math. But at the end of the day we have very little evidence of anything.

God is a metaphysical force outside of time. You cannot totaly discount the fact that he is not there.
Bingo.

As always, Love and Peace, Karmashock.

[|AiTd|-Shepherd]

If u can say there is a god, why cant we say there isnt one?Testimonials? yeh sure, are u sure that person wasnt drunk?Found noahs ark? comon, dont tell me u really believe that is noahs ark...

To believe in god or not is a choice, most of the ppl that believe in god they believe in god because they feel it helps them, they feel that in their worst moment, sum1 will always be with them.

What i dont understand is why do u ppl think u can say there is a god, but we cant say that there isnt a god? >:(

Im going off of evidence I have read / seen for myself. I believe there is a god but Im not a Bible fanatic so Im not going to begin an arguement as Apoc and and Karma have. (too lengthy and in detailed for me to start one. I care more about my EDU and Strait A's than someones beliefs...)

[Shackled Phoenix]

Posted by MC:

Apoc man, where did you parents come from? Your grandparents...Where did they come from? Your great-grandparents...Etc.


This goes on untill you get to the point where you have to ask youself...Where did man come from?

Simple question, where did god come from? and if he just was, why can the universe not have just been, and man evolved from something funky?

[Karmashock]

as to creation... you've got a point there... it has to start somewhere... at least in my linear human mind it does... but maybe the universe doesn't work that way... Frankly, I'd prefer that the universe have no beginning... all things that begin - end.

As to evolution... god(s) could have made that as easy as anything... they could have even done it ex post facto... ie making everything seperately, then making them related later... Many god(s) are ALL powerful... as in anything is possible for them...

It's important that these basic facts be understood about gods before you begin a discussion about them. Like someone knowing that sun light kills vampires before talking about them... just basic lore.
L&P, KS.

[Outrageous Cheek]

I read this yesterday morning in my bible. This was the Lord talking to Job; after Job had been talking like a tough guy. This is a portion of what God responded. (The numbers next to some of the words are the verse numbers)

(I find it rather hilarious the way he mocks Job at certain parts :lol: )

(Job 38:2-30)

"Who is this that darkens my counsel

with words without knowledge?

3 Brace yourself like a man;

I will question you,

and you shall answer me.



4 "Where were you when I laid the earth's foundation?

Tell me, if you understand.

5 Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know!

Who stretched a measuring line across it?

6 On what were its footings set,

or who laid its cornerstone-

7 while the morning stars sang together

and all the angels [a] shouted for joy?



8 "Who shut up the sea behind doors

when it burst forth from the womb,

9 when I made the clouds its garment

and wrapped it in thick darkness,

10 when I fixed limits for it

and set its doors and bars in place,

11 when I said, 'This far you may come and no farther;

here is where your proud waves halt'?



12 "Have you ever given orders to the morning,

or shown the dawn its place,

13 that it might take the earth by the edges

and shake the wicked out of it?

14 The earth takes shape like clay under a seal;

its features stand out like those of a garment.

15 The wicked are denied their light,

and their upraised arm is broken.



16 "Have you journeyed to the springs of the sea

or walked in the recesses of the deep?

17 Have the gates of death been shown to you?

Have you seen the gates of the shadow of death [b] ?

18 Have you comprehended the vast expanses of the earth?

Tell me, if you know all this.



19 "What is the way to the abode of light?

And where does darkness reside?

20 Can you take them to their places?

Do you know the paths to their dwellings?

21 Surely you know, for you were already born!

You have lived so many years!



22 "Have you entered the storehouses of the snow

or seen the storehouses of the hail,

23 which I reserve for times of trouble,

for days of war and battle?

24 What is the way to the place where the lightning is dispersed,

or the place where the east winds are scattered over the earth?

25 Who cuts a channel for the torrents of rain,

and a path for the thunderstorm,

26 to water a land where no man lives,

a desert with no one in it,

27 to satisfy a desolate wasteland

and make it sprout with grass?

28 Does the rain have a father?

Who fathers the drops of dew?

29 From whose womb comes the ice?

Who gives birth to the frost from the heavens

30 when the waters become hard as stone,

when the surface of the deep is frozen?



31 "Can you bind the beautiful [c] Pleiades?

Can you loose the cords of Orion?

32 Can you bring forth the constellations in their seasons [d]

or lead out the Bear [e] with its cubs?

33 Do you know the laws of the heavens?

Can you set up God's [f] dominion over the earth?



34 "Can you raise your voice to the clouds

and cover yourself with a flood of water?

35 Do you send the lightning bolts on their way?

Do they report to you, 'Here we are'?

36 Who endowed the heart [g] with wisdom

or gave understanding to the mind [h] ?

37 Who has the wisdom to count the clouds?

Who can tip over the water jars of the heavens

38 when the dust becomes hard

and the clods of earth stick together?

[LardGibs]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20041209/ap_on_re_us/believing_atheist&e=4


deism.

re: above

Listen, any reasonable person actually interacting with God has already lost the battle, MC. Did Job think he was schizophrenic, or that he needed better gold and jewels in exchange for his worship?

[Karmashock]

A close cousin to the agnostic... it also has no hostile undertones... Not just Jefferson, but many of our founders were Deists...

It bothers me when philosophers embrace god as death starts to stalk them... rather dishonest...

I'll at least have the piece of mind to know that I've always been consistent on the issue... To deny yourself that moment of whisteling in the dark before you sink into hte blackness is just self abusive.

[Outrageous Cheek]

Listen, any reasonable person actually interacting with God has already lost the battle, MC. Did Job think he was schizophrenic, or that he needed better gold and jewels in exchange for his worship?

Lost the battle? What mean you? Do you mean if they were arguing? Because yes they have...

I do not fully understand the meaning of your second sentence...(For some reason you are the only person who has posted here, who's words I occasionally don't understand. lol Sorry.)

[LardGibs]

as far as battle goes: what I mean is that the issue of disbelief is no longer present.


The conceptual leap here that many of us arguing the anti-fantasy position is that God says nothing, does nothing, etc. in a tangible way, as opposed to what you are offering from a document admittedly somewhat less compelling than signed radiodated memoirs of Job.

-edit-

ffs that's why it's called faith, not proof.

Bring me proof in JC, and not the Virgin Mary in a windowpane or a bleeding loaf of bread.

[Outrageous Cheek]

It bothers me when philosophers embrace god as death starts to stalk them... rather dishonest...

I know just what you mean. It alarms me too. It's like...They simply WILL NOT believe that there is a higher God, or that they are accountable to anyone, untill their death bed (or nearly)...When they finally realize that they are powerless!...And they realize how weak they are.

In youth we all occasionally feel like we have all the power in the world...

[Outrageous Cheek]

Bring me proof in JC, and not the Virgin Mary in a windowpane or a bleeding loaf of bread.

I never ever said that was proof. I don't worship Mary, not in the slightest...When you think about it, (This is what I don't understand about catholics) if you believe the bible, and you believe in Jesus and His miracles and His perfection and love (etc.) then why in the world would you worship MARY!? She gave birth to Jesus (Physically). That's all, she's not perfect...She didn't perform miracles...When someone believes like this it's like they are totally missing the point.


ffs that's why it's called faith, not proof.

It's like Karma always says, neither you nor I have more proof than the other. It's all up to faith.

[Karmashock]

Bring me proof in JC, and not the Virgin Mary in a windowpane or a bleeding loaf of bread.
If God(s) exist and they wanted you to have proof then you'd have it. As you don't there are two possibilities... god(s) don't exist OR they don't want you to have it. Neither is more credible. No emperic logic will back up either at the expense of the other.
========================================
I know just what you mean. It alarms me too. It's like...They simply WILL NOT believe that there is a higher God, or that they are accountable to anyone, untill their death bed (or nearly)...When they finally realize that they are powerless!...And they realize how weak they are.

In youth we all occasionally feel like we have all the power in the world...
More specifically, they realize that there is ZERO downside to making peace with God... aside from becoming total hypocrites.

I'm sure that man was offered the logic "why not embrace god when there is so much to gain and nothing to lose" a million times... he likely responded with some brow beating tripe about that being superstitious nonsense. But when the world goes gray and he hears the snick snack of the reaper blade in the background he changes his tune? For all his wisdom he mustn't have known his own mortality... and any philosopher that doesn't know that is clueless.


My general case against atheism is that it's pointless. There is ZERO upside to it. It's like intentionally picking a loser... if you're going to go to the abyss anyway, then you might as well make billion to one chance at an afterlife. That 'hope' is what puts old minds like his at their final ease.

[Outrageous Cheek]

Haha, good points.

Yeah, when you say there is ZERO downside, I think you are absoloutly right.

Lots of atheists (and the likes of them) think that if they follow God, they have to loose ALL the freedom in their life. The funny part is, that they have had all their life to experience this "freedom"...and guess what? They are still looking for answers and a better life...As well as happyness.

(Karma do you mind If I add you to my MSN messinger Buddy list?)

[/<yle]

Bring me proof in JC, and not the Virgin Mary in a windowpane or a bleeding loaf of bread.


Proof that he existed? or what?

[Karmashock]

(Karma do you mind If I add you to my MSN messinger Buddy list?)
might as well... everyone else has... I literally have 40 IM addresses in trillion that have NO idea who they belong to... I randomly message them and ask them who they are... :P

[Outrageous Cheek]

lol, ok. I change my name like everyday...Kyle gets uber pissed lol.

If you get a message from CasualGamer5..that's me.

[Karmashock]

ALWAYS Karmashock.

[Outrageous Cheek]

Roger Karma.

Hey Lard why do evolutionist believe that we are gradually evolving into more effective or better beings...When every scientist knows that the second law of Thermodynamics states that all things tend to decay and die?

[Bentusi]

mm..

I haven't looked it up. But Thermodynamics don't necassarily apply to living beings.. iirc it just applies to inert objects.

But, yes. Eventually the human race WILL decay and die, but that doesn't exclude the possibilty of evolution.

My belief in evolution is basically dervived from the following hypothesis. Suppose there is a worldwide plague. The virus is uncurable, and only those 1/1000 with the requisite immune system would survive. Thus, everybody else in the world dies off, leaving only those with the incredibly strong immune systems. Suddenly the entire human race is now genetically disposed to have better immune systems then they did before. Thats the basis of evolution.

[LardGibs]

Roger Karma.

Hey Lard why do evolutionist believe that we are gradually evolving into more effective or better beings...When every scientist knows that the second law of Thermodynamics states that all things tend to decay and die?That's not what thermodynamics says at all n00b.

Thermodynamics are rules that govern the flows of energy in the Universe. The version of the second law that I would offer is: Any real world process results in a decrease in useful energy.

What an engineeer learns about thermodynamics is illustrated in the following example.

Thermodynamics says that you cannot take CO2, and turn it into hydrocarbons, without energy input. Generally, that's why it's not done, but if you had to do it, thermodynamics tells you how much other stuff, i.e. how much solar energy you might have to capture to make that happen.

to use a more prosaic example:

You are stating that thermodynamics tells you that rocks only roll downhill. Incorrect. This does not mean that rocks cannot roll uphill, only that one must roll a larger rock downhill, to get the smaller rock to roll uphill.

Eventually, all the rocks are downhill and you're fucked. This is what is called the Heat Death of the Universe, where nothing but Entropy remains.

I could go on if you like, hopefully we can leave it here.

as far as the evolutionist 'theory' goes, or natural selection... Natural selection is a fact, if you read all your creation science books they try to co-opt it because it can't be disproven. so read up. If you have 10 bacteria on an agar plate, and you hit them with poison such that 9/10 die, and do it a few times, what you will discover is that more poison will be required, or that it will even cease to work at all. This is the fundamental genetic algorithm, Fitness Lives.

A final comment. The Sun is a very big ball rolling downhill, the smaller ball that is all the weirdness of biological activity is powered by it*

*as a gross abstraction :rolleyes:

[DrunkenUno]

Lard has pwnt everyone in this thread so many times that I actually lost count.

[Apocalypse]

I love Lard.

[Larsson7]

Lard has pwnt everyone in this thread so many times that I actually lost count.

Lard is a seriously smart guy and I <3 that he is a TLSC

Lard pwns all of you and Drunk is right- This guy is a smart and articulate mofo :D

[Apocalypse]

I'm not so sure if he has ownt me? Are my views not the same? i need sleep.

[Bentusi]

cheer's to lard

[LardGibs]

FYI all:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/8b/Willard_Gibbs.jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willard_Gibbs)
pwnz joo!

[LardGibs]

I must doublepost and say more, since you are all such thermodynamics fans!

If you want to find proof of 'teh hand of G0d', you should consider this. There is a thermodynamic quantity called the Gibbs Free Energy, which is largely used to determine whether or not substances or systems are at their lowest energy.

Biological processes tuned by natural selection or the Big G? either way... This quantity change of free energy state from biological step to step is as close to Zero as possible. delta-G, the change in free energy, is Zero for well-evolved biological chemical processes.

Typical sheite knocked together by hairy mammals in my profession is usually far less impressive.

[Karmashock]

Roger Karma.

Hey Lard why do evolutionist believe that we are gradually evolving into more effective or better beings...When every scientist knows that the second law of Thermodynamics states that all things tend to decay and die?
MC,
For the love of god, Stop trying to back up god WITH science... it's STUPID! Science has ZERO evidence that god existes or existed... or that god doesn't exist... science can explain anything that we can get good data on to a degree that there is no need for god.

Religion is about FAITH, not knowledge...

I repeat, religion attacking science is like a shark attacking a tiger on land... also, Science attacking religion is like a tiger trying to attack a shark in the water.

Science is the master of the physical; Religion is the master of the metaphysical.

Get over it.

Leave each other alone, it's pathetic.
L&P, KS.

[Outrageous Cheek]

Well I wouldn't be so proud...You are a post-college mad scientist who "owned" someone in 10th grade who read his science book wrong.

:rolleyes:

[Karmashock]

There is nothing you have said that I haven't heard from a creationism douche of many times my own years.

This isn't something that you came up with, it isn't entirely your fault... it's the creationists... They're making Christians look stupid. Denounce them... they're the best thing the enemies of your faith have going for them.

[LardGibs]

Well I wouldn't be so proud...You are a post-college mad scientist who "owned" someone in 10th grade who read his science book wrong.

:rolleyes:
Listen, you called me out, ya twerp. Don't pick fights you can't win and go back to the spam forum.

I'm trying to show you the extreme irony of asking LardGibs a thermodynamics question, but apparently you didn't see the humor.

The fact is, I agree with the premise offered that science can't be used to prove anything because it's built through induction. Unfortunately because of your limited reach our discourse cannot reach that level. Where I began with this whole mess that you aren't able to follow, was that there is a basic flaw in epistemology, in that persons formulating a position begin with a belief and cherry-pick facts they think they understand to support their position.

Debate fags make it even worse because they train in it and, like shit eating lawyers fight for either side, for hire.

Doesn't this illustrate that many of your other beliefs are potentially built on equally shoddy preconceptions?

[Karmashock]

for hire?... shit are people getting paid :D

[Outrageous Cheek]

Doesn't this illustrate that many of your other beliefs are potentially built on equally shoddy preconceptions?

I'll tell you what I told you all last time we made a thread like this.

You know, I belive (On eye witness accounts and documented story events, not just fossil records) that God created us to glorify him and to serve him, and in turn he will save us, give us wisdom and strength on a daily basis, help us through our struggles in life, forgive us for our sins and as give us eternal live in Paradise (Heaven). You believe that something happened out of nothing and an organism turned into a monkey which somehow turned into a human over billions of years. You also believe that we have no purpose at all, meaningless and random. Wow that seems really bleak.

Help me understand why anyone would want to believe that. Both require faith, so why is it that someone would choose the one that is so bleak?

[Karmashock]

oh, life does have a purpose... it's something that all life shares... the will and ability to survive. Furthermore, human intelligence is something that can be explained through evolution. Not as a means to outsmart our environment, but as a means to outsmart each other and win mates. The brain is the human peacock plum... and a means towards competition for power and status within the pre human society. A strong creature would not gain power... they might be muscle for someone else... but a specific type of brains got you power.
////////////
I stand between these two groups... the spiritualists have their place and so do the materialists. Either of you attacking the other is foolish. Merely ensure that you are permitted to do what you do best and leave it at that.

Love and Peace, Karmashock.

[LardGibs]

You know, I belive (On eye witness accounts and documented story events, not just fossil records) that God created us to glorify him and to serve him,
You said this before and I let it go. Who are the eyewitnesses? Spell it out so I'm certain what you mean, rather than guessing.

I would serve God a tasty dessert if he would just drop by.

[Karmashock]

that doesn't require any faith...

And if I put a gun to your head and gave you 5 minutes to make your peace with the other side, I doubt you’d make no plea to God(s)... be a vain attempt at self preservation or your last chance at securing salvation. ;)

And if you’d do it then… then everything before then was just empty hypocrisy.

I know I WOULD make that plea… and so I don’t tarnish my philosophical credibility by pretending that I’m sure.

Most atheists only give lip service to it because it's perceived as modern... and no one likes to think of themselves as primitive do they?

[Outrageous Cheek]

oh, life does have a purpose... it's something that all life shares... the will and ability to survive. Furthermore, human intelligence is something that can be explained through evolution. Not as a means to outsmart our environment, but as a means to outsmart each other and win mates. The brain is the human peacock plum... and a means towards competition for power and status within the pre human society. A strong creature would not gain power... they might be muscle for someone else... but a specific type of brains got you power.
////////////
I stand between these two groups... the spiritualists have their place and so do the materialists. Either of you attacking the other is foolish. Merely ensure that you are permitted to do what you do best and leave it at that.

Love and Peace, Karmashock.

I respect you Karma.

But I have to ask, is that all you want to do in life? Survive? After all it's futile that we all die. I for one, do not want to just survive, I want happyness, I know you do too.

Not as a means to outsmart our environment, but as a means to outsmart each other and win mates.

Outsmarting eachother and winning mates will have no ultimate satisfaction, man. When you do outsmart a person (Such as Lard did with the Thermodynamics thing :) ) what comes out of it is praise and self satisfaction...For a little while. It last only a short amount of time...then what? Winning a mate (you mean like a wife or husband, right?) is great. (heh) But that's not as fullfilling as imagined before hand. When someone gets married, do they go "I'm 100% satisfied! I'll never want anything ever again!" and stay that way forever? Nah.

The brain is the human peacock plum... and a means towards competition for power and status within the pre human society.

Power is fun but nobody is ever satisfied with the power they have are they? They want more more more. (I don't need to give examples...Cuz I'm sure you can think of dozens)

Either of you attacking the other is foolish.

Please don't get the missconception that I'm attacking. If I have sounded like I am, I did not mean to. I am sharing. I am trying to tell you guy how I feel, I am satisfied with my faith in God, and I know my purpose, and I feel happy. (Sorry if i'm sounding supercilious...Really don't mean to) I want you guys to know what it feels like too (Cuz I like you guys alot, No hard feeling Lard, right?), but I know it's very hard to talk about this online ( :rolleyes: )...

That's all.

[Outrageous Cheek]

You said this before and I let it go. Who are the eyewitnesses? Spell it out so I'm certain what you mean, rather than guessing.

I would serve God a tasty dessert if he would just drop by.


The bible, man. It explains what happend in the beginning; there are no other records like it, nothing even near it. But I know that means nothing to you, because it's all a load of BS without faith.

But! Has the bible ever been disproven? It sure hasn't.

[DrunkenUno]

The bible, man. It explains what happend in the beginning; there are no other records like it, nothing even near it. But I know that means nothing to you, because it's all a load of BS without faith.

But! Has the bible ever been disproven? It sure hasn't.

So if I write a fantasy book suddenly its an eyewitness account?

[Karmashock]

I respect you Karma.
But I have to ask, is that all you want to do in life? Survive? After all it's futile that we all die. I for one, do not want to just survive, I want happyness, I know you do too.
What I want and what I am are two different things. I was merely pointing out the fact that all life shares a common will… to survive. There are things that don’t quite relate to that… but that’s because a human-being is really two creatures… we are flesh and we are ego. Our bodies evolved the ego because it gives the body an advantage in a social world. However, there is a price… and that price is that the ego is a separate creature altogether. And unlike the body, which is a thing of flesh and blood, the ego is a creature of concept. Our love of story… of philosophy… of magic… of fantasy comes from the ego… The ego, while residing within a material shell is no more a part of this world then a computer program exists outside the machine. It is a thing of story and song… wisp of smoke made mortal.

This is the scientific explanation for the soul… for the thing that gave birth to religion, art, and culture itself. It survives by different means… and my body is more a slave to this thing then it is to the body (this is not true of all humans obviously… one might even say that to be truly human one must be above the body… to have the ego dominate the flesh… but that is not a thing science will ever understand). The body’s only redeeming feature is that I cannot exist, so far as I know, without it. Do I seek happiness?… what does that mean? Do you seek physical pleasure or spiritual fulfillment… the body can only lust and the ego can only love… the body can know rage and the ego can know hate.

I seek spiritual fulfillment… but that’s just in the best interest of the ego… great deeds are the only way it can really live on… in books… through words… remembered deeds… the body lives on through the blood…

At the end of the day both of these things matter to us… to achieve these ends to the extent that we are body or ego is to know happiness.


Outsmarting eachother and winning mates will have no ultimate satisfaction, man. When you do outsmart a person (Such as Lard did with the Thermodynamics thing :) ) what comes out of it is praise and self satisfaction...For a little while. It last only a short amount of time...then what? Winning a mate (you mean like a wife or husband, right?) is great. (heh) But that's not as fullfilling as imagined before hand. When someone gets married, do they go "I'm 100% satisfied! I'll never want anything ever again!" and stay that way forever? Nah.

Power is fun but nobody is ever satisfied with the power they have are they? They want more more more. (I don't need to give examples...Cuz I'm sure you can think of dozens)
Of course we will always want more… how can you have enough pleasure or life? The answer is that one is too much when it becomes a poison… pleasure can kill the ego by drowning it in the wants of the body… and spirit can kill the body in the same manner.

We must have balance until we are free...

Love and peace, Karmashock.

[LardGibs]

So if I write a fantasy book suddenly its an eyewitness account?
Yes, if you accept Gandalf as your personal savior, you will get to sail with him and the elves to the Undying Lands.

Meanwhile if you don't you'll end up like wretched smeagol, burning in the fires of Mount Doom.

*yawn*

[Outrageous Cheek]

So if I write a fantasy book suddenly its an eyewitness account?

If you write a fantasy book that explains and ties into everything in the world while at the same time being undisprovable, telling more wisdom than can be found in any other book, containing a full way of life; something that millions of people read everyday, a book that-thousands of years later-can still (If you read it) teach you how to live effectivly, and a book that people spawns thousands of other books to help people understand it's more complex and elaborate contents...Then you won't even need eyewitness accounts.

[Outrageous Cheek]

Yes, if you accept Gandalf as your personal savior, you will get to sail with him and the elves to the Undying Lands.

Meanwhile if you don't you'll end up like wretched smeagol, burning in the fires of Mount Doom.

*yawn*

Do I mock you? No.

BTW, Tolkien had the same beliefs I have.

[Outrageous Cheek]

MC,
For the love of god, Stop trying to back up god WITH science... it's STUPID! Science has ZERO evidence that god existes or existed... or that god doesn't exist... science can explain anything that we can get good data on to a degree that there is no need for god.


Too late..Heh I already wrote this...

... (http://www.tlsconline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=16887)

[DrunkenUno]

If you write a fantasy book that explains and ties into everything in the world while at the same time being undisprovable, telling more wisdom than can be found in any other book, containing a full way of life; something that millions of people read everyday, a book that-thousands of years later-can still (If you read it) teach you how to live effectivly, and a book that people spawns thousands of other books to help people understand it's more complex and elaborate contents...Then you won't even need eyewitness accounts.

1)How does the bible "explains and ties into everything in the world?" I must have missed that biblical passage that describes nuclear fission. Or why the sky is blue. Or how to hit the G spot perfectly on any girl.
2) If the Bible is "undisprovable" then that would make the Koran, the Sumerian writings (which basically state that aliens were our gods), and the greek and roman myths "undisprovable" as well, since the only way to truly "anti-undisprove" them would be to go back in time to when they were written.
3)Millions more people read the Koran everyday. Does that mean its right? I'm sure millions of people listen to Britney Spears every day, does that make Britney's cds as "undisprovable" a "way of life" as the bible?
4) The Koran has spawned thousands of books. So has World War 2.

All your points are horrible. Rethink your stance please.

[Larsson7]

No one will know until they die.

Not one person here can say with 100% conviction that God exists or doesnt.

I just hope that God does exist because I want to believe that something better exists than this fucking shithole of a planet.

[/<yle]

Indeed. It really is a matter of faith tho

[MVB]

I think I just had an immaculate conception just now. The stuff that came out of my butt ... man, it had no resemblance to anything that went in me ... so, I think the holy spirit put it there. I flushed our savior.

-- this bit of religious humor will be forgiven by the loving forgiveness and good humor of the New Testament God --

-- the Old Testament God was a PC n00b irritated at being omgwtfpwned by all but 12 tiny tribes of one tiny nation, and he would have looked at me and gone "OMG CHEET HAX0RZ 11111 and then caused my connection to lag out from the spam --

[laserflip]

For the better part of the first 1500 years of Christianity, Christian meant Catholic. In fact, the word Catholic was never used, so much as the lowercased catholic (meaning universal), which was just a way of describing the Christian Church.

After the schism in the Church, traditional Christians took the name Catholic, to help differentiate themselves from other Christians. Unfortunately, other Christians didn't do the same, and left themselves in one big lump group. Now, Baptists are Baptists, and Lutherans are Lutherans, etc., but they often just get referred to as "Christians."

I'm a Christian, because I believe in Christ's teachings, etc. I'm a Catholic because that is the form of Christianity I follow. It may or may not be 'right,' but it is MOST in-line with the original Church, though not at all identical.

AND, if you're HARDCORE Catholic, you molest people. Only the hardliners though.

[MVB]

Allow me to smear feces on your face and introduce you to your savior lassie.

Sorry, but I'm a very strong Catholic; I had this conversation with lard yesterday; I'm not outspoken about my faith, nor do I force it on others, nor do I take it verbatim without translating meaning or thinking about what a given rule developed in the 8th century to boost the fish industry really is meant to do.