Bush physically pulls security through :D

[Karmashock]

http://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/rids/20041121/i/r1099370513.jpg
http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20041121/capt.bpt20111210040.bush_security_fracas_chile_ape c_bpt201.jpg
http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20041121/capt.bpt20311210040.bush_security_fracas_chile_ape c_bpt203.jpg
SANTIAGO, Chile (AP) - President Bush stepped into the middle of a confrontation and pulled his lead Secret Service agent away from Chilean security officials who barred his bodyguards from entering an elegant dinner for 21 world leaders Saturday night.

Several Chilean and American agents got into a pushing and shoving match outside the cultural center where the dinner was held. The incident happened after Bush and his wife, Laura, had just posed for pictures on a red carpet with the host of the Asia-Pacific Economic Cooperation summit, Chilean President Ricardo Lagos and his wife, Luisa Duran.

As Bush stepped inside, Chilean agents closed ranks at the door, blocking the president's agents from following. Stopping for more pictures, Bush noticed the fracas and turned back. He reached through the dispute and pulled his agent from the scrum and into the building.

[Polaris]

haha, bush is teh shit
there's a good man, takes no crap from anybody, not the chilean guards, not the terrorists.

[Karmashock]

I just love this picture...
http://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/rids/20041121/i/r1099370513.jpg

observers say he looked annoyed... :D

[MVB]

HAhaha, so man presidents would be so pussy-whipped by their orders not to get themselves in trouble that they'd have done nothing and just looked confused. Bush goes "fuck this shit" and settles things personally. Great.

Stupid Chilean security agents probably were too damned dumb to realize they were his bodyguards, and not just random reporters or the admiring public or something like that.

[MVB]

"There was some confusion over whether the president's Secret Service agent could accompany him to the dinner, but the issue was resolved," White House spokeswoman Claire Buchan told CNN.

You're damned right it was resolved :)

[Karmashock]

Like the president is going to go anywhere without the secret service :D

and in Chili of all places... didn't they have a successful assassination there a while back?... like in the royal palace... just yikes... I can understand getting taken down in a public place by a sniper... or like three snipers with one dupe and two secret ones according to Oliver Stone"d"... but getting taken down in your own palace is just embarrassing...


Again... this pose says it all... doesn't that just scream "wtf?"...
http://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/rids/20041121/i/r1099370513.jpg

[Foree]

Bush looks like a kid on a zoo trip with his parents, after passing by a gorilla cage...

[Polaris]

i dont think so
it definately says "wtf?!"

[JADezimar]

Just another example of, The United States isnt weak. And neither is our Leader.

[MVB]

Yeah, his look there is definitely "what the fuck?"

He turns to say something to his agent, or just turns b/c he hears something at the door, and there is his personal guard being detained by some chilean guards. He didn't think it was neat to look at like a gorilla at the zoo; he thought "what the hell is going on?"

[MVB]

God, all I can think is that the security agent he is run up against trying to shove through the crowd, must have looked over like "who the hell is ... OH SHIT!"

[DrunkenUno]

Bush shoulda whipped out his wang and given those chilean's some mushroom tatoos.

[/<yle]

Bush pwnt chillean security. Bush 1, Chille 0

[Shackled Phoenix]

Just think of how the secret service guy felt. These guys are ready to pull their own hearts out of their chests with butterknives to protect the prez, and suddenly these guys try to stop them? I can't imagine the chaos if Bush hadn't noticed.

and yeah, that look is SO "WTF!?"

[JADezimar]

Wed probalby have a war over something as stupid as that :p

But Bush pulls through. Hmmm the queen of england would be using her walker come here Skinny tim get off your ass plz. I need you to help carry me to my seat.

[Karmashock]

That's a good point... They wouldn't have tried that BS with someone with a crown...

what do you think?... should bush wear a cape?... just so people get it? :D

[shutupandshave]

But Bush pulls through. Hmmm the queen of england would be using her walker come here Skinny tim get off your ass plz. I need you to help carry me to my seat.
JAD, is that one of these examples where someone made fun of the US and you're making fun of us back.

[MVB]

He's actually just making fun of the Queen. You make fun of America, I don't see why he can't make fun of the Queen is he so pleases.

[shutupandshave]

He said he only makes fun of the UK because someone else starts... I was asking if this was an example of that.

He's welcome to make fun of the queen, but he shouldn't be upset when I make fun of Bush.

[Karmashock]

Jad, please make suas fell good about his symbol... tell him she's hot or something...

[shutupandshave]

<Karma> A small mind will make fun of people instead of making points.

(or words to that effect).

GJ Karma, you've owned yourself again.

[Karmashock]

:oohoo: Try again small fry... You've been at least as disrespectful of us, so your comments have past hypocrisy and entered the zany land of flat out stupidity.

and now... I dance! :jig:

Love, Karmashock.

[shutupandshave]

Karma, you saying that insulting someone means you have nothing to say then insulting me, is different to me just insulting you.

Me insulting you does not make me a hypocrite. Me saying that people that insult for no reason, and then saying something isn't true about you to put you down would make YOU a hypocrite.

You have started more fights between us than I have.

MVB argued with me too, and he was wrong (As was I a couple of times) a couple of times. He realised that being wrong doesn't bother me, being right doesn't bother me - it's someone saying "you're fucking wrong you stupid retard, you're such a faggot" because I suggested there might not be WMD (which seemed obvious to me at the time) in Iraq.

Stop insulting me and we'll get on fine?

You see - the interesting thing here - is that in almost every post, I have tried to be polite. The only thing I feel could be taken badly was when I said "GJ you owned yourself again"...because you literally did. It was YOU claiming that the little digs made someone a faggot (or whatever name you actually said)... which is exactly what YOU are doing. YOU owned YOU, no one else... so really - it's the truth that owned you, nothing else. I am just pointing it out. Anyway, I have been polite, and you've still been your usual abusive self.

[Karmashock]

Stop insulting me and we'll get on fine?
*sigh*... I could have said the same thing to many times... Leave me be and I have left you be. Press nonsense or insult me or my position and I'll respond in kind. Don't like that?... tough.

You see - the interesting thing here - is that in almost every post, I have tried to be polite.
Total and complete bullshit.
Anyway, I have been polite, and you've still been your usual abusive self.
The lies do come easily off your lips don't they?


I didn't respond to the rest because it was just so much bitter tripe.

Anyway...

<3 Love, Karmashock.

[shutupandshave]

The thing is Karma, it has already been proven that what you consider nonsense and lies have sometines turned out to be truth, and not nonsense and lies at all... the problem I have is that you insult things I know to be true (you insulted me during that conversation about the median earnings, about something that turned out to be true for example)

If you were more willing to keep an open mind (or at least stop insulting people) until things had been discussed - no matter how obvious it may seem to you that people are wrong - I am sure that this board will be a much nicer place to be for everyone.

[Karmashock]

If you were more willing to keep an open mind (or at least stop insulting people) until things had been discussed - no matter how obvious it may seem to you that people are wrong - I am sure that this board will be a much nicer place to be for everyone.
I make no apologies for insults that I haven't already apologized for... they were fitting to the situation and I would say it again.

As to open minds, you have a habit of saying "well we'll never know" or something similar when you've been backed into a corner... even when it's obvious that we do know right now and there is no doubt.

If you don't want insult thrown around, I have TOLD YOU HOW TO PREVENT THEM!

Just DO NOT INSULT ME, MY COUNTRY, or MY IDEOLOGY! If you think any of those things is silly or stupid, then find a more constructive way of going about it. Attack one or all of them and I'll open up on you. Furthermore, don't be dishonest. I know this is just a debate tactic to you and you don't consider it dishonest, but I do. When you suppose things that you know very well aren't true or hold out information that you know would crush your point that is dishonest.

Deal respectfully and honestly with me and you'll have no problems.

[shutupandshave]

Ahh - perhaps I missed the apologies - could you please link me to them?

You take me stating people's opinions as an attack on your country and you.

For example, I quoted that SOME people (and I was quite specific about saying it wasn't me) said that the US is displaying fascist tendancies. You told me that it was completely untrue (that anyone thought that), and then a couple of days later said that some German minister was completely stupid for saying that (proving the point that other people DO think that).

Tell you what - next time you feel that I have insulted you or your country - instead of insulting me - tell me that what I said that insulted you without swearing or calling me names... then perhaps we'll both realise that we take each other out of context too much. I wont call you names either...and if you insult me, my ideology or my country/eu I will be sure to let you know...

Deal?

[Shackled Phoenix]

First of all, chill you two. Going against each other stating facts relating to the topic athand is one thing, but when a post is made simply arguing over who insulted who first, it's getting out of hand. No i'm not a mod or such, I'm asking as a fellow TLSC member, stop making me read through alotta name calling etc (from both of you) to be able to get to the actual GOOD points you've both made. I like you both because you (generally) know how to have an intelligent arguement with people other than each other. Even though I generally agree with Karma, I respect saus's right to his own views. These are threads with the intent of political debate, and that's what suas is giving us.

So I ask again guys, please take it to a private thread, or PM's.

Sorry for getting off topic

[Karmashock]

Tell you what - next time you feel that I have insulted you or your country - instead of insulting me - tell me that what I said that insulted you without swearing or calling me names... then perhaps we'll both realise that we take each other out of context too much. I wont call you names either...and if you insult me, my ideology or my country/eu I will be sure to let you know...
I'll give it a try, but this is only half of the problem... you can review my previous post of the the other issue.

[shutupandshave]

Okay, look forward to getting along now.

[JADezimar]

Its hard to get along with someone that A. PLays the devils advocate or B. Hates Everything U.S. ,and or right, And is biast to anything Dealing with what I am as a person.

Suas I hope its just the devils advocate part. On the other hand we know thats not the case with Angel.

[Larsson7]

Its hard to get along with someone that A. PLays the devils advocate or B. Hates Everything U.S. ,and or right, And is biast to anything Dealing with what I am as a person.

Suas I hope its just the devils advocate part. On the other hand we know thats not the case with Angel.

You know nothing.

Your "Factual" staements are based on your own opinion.

Please try and not confuse Fact with Opinion.

Kthx

[JADezimar]

Angel, You know nothing and.... You are a biasts hater. Anyone that read all your posts on the forums will agree. I have never seen an objection to my opinion on that accept yours. And I have seen people comment on how you are way off from right feild ;p

[Larsson7]

oh rly?

I have heard nobody but you brand me a "biasts hater"

Still, if you say so...

[JADezimar]

Which you are ;) a fascists lover of the IRa

[Shackled Phoenix]

Angel i actually side with JAD on that you're biased. i've yet to see many posts with valid arguements from you. SUAS atleast, even though he seems to be biased and despises the US, has atleast attempted valid arguements.

[/<yle]

Everyone is biased in one way or another... some let it show through more than others.

[shutupandshave]

People seem to take critism of the US as a dislike of the US. You say I despise the US - I suppose you didn't read the thread where I went off for a while about how great the US is.

I like the US for the most part, but I think it's fucked a few things up. I think all countries have. The difference is - if someone says to me "the Uk really things up in Africa" I will say "yeah it did" and involve myself in a debate about it. Iwont say "OMG YOU FUCKING BIASED HATER, YOU HAVE NO FUCKING ARGUMENT, YOU FAGGOT RASCIST BIASED FAGBUCKET"... I can take usually take criticism... especially when it's backed up by valid arguments and facts.

Shackled, if you can find evidence of me HATING the US, I can find you evidence of me not hating the US evidence... so it will even out, and the end result will be that I think the US has it's good points, and I think the US has it's bad points. Right now, I think the worst part about the US is the way that the country is so agressively defended... both on these forums (where people from all over the world have no choice but to start to see the US in terms of people like JAD and Karma), and in the political arena (where you're attacking a country for something it didn't do). Remember - when we went to war with Iraq, the primary reason was not for regime change. It was because Iraq posed an immediate threat, and had links to Al-Q...not for regime change.

[Larsson7]

Angel i actually side with JAD on that you're biased. i've yet to see many posts with valid arguements from you. SUAS atleast, even though he seems to be biased and despises the US, has atleast attempted valid arguements.

Who are you?

You really do not know what the fuck you are talking about.

JAD has gone off on a tangent that I am an IRA supporter despite the fact I have stated on several different occasions that I am NOT, in any way, a supporter of the IRA.

Is this clear to everyone?

If I were a supporter of the IRA I would hate suas and Apoc because they are British and I would hurl invective at them frequently. Do you see this happen?

The American attitude of moral superiority does take me to the fair sometimes. Do you think everyone else in the world should just shut up and not critisice you for how your military operates? This just means we give you a carte blanche to do as you see fit without critisism or being held accountable by the rest of the world.

Please start thinking for yourself and stop being a mindless drone and hopping on the "Go Bush" bandwagon.

If you cannot see that you are possibly starting something that may have global consequences then you are being very short sighted.

Oh - please point out which of my posts are not valid. Just because I don't agree with your point of view does not make my opinion invalid.

[shutupandshave]

I think another way of looking at it...
The US has said many times that it is the policeman in the world.
US people on this board have said many times that what the US does affects the world... well that gives the WORLD the right to comment on what the US is doing.

[Larsson7]

I think another way of looking at it...
The US has said many times that it is the policeman in the world.
US people on this board have said many times that what the US does affects the world... well that gives the WORLD the right to comment on what the US is doing.

STFU already!



























I am a rabid IRA supporter so I naturally hate you. Havent you noticed this yet? :P

[shutupandshave]

*resists the urge*

[Critta]

Just DO NOT INSULT ME, MY COUNTRY, or MY IDEOLOGY! If you think any of those things is silly or stupid, then find a more constructive way of going about it.

Deal respectfully and honestly with me and you'll have no problems.

As SUAS has already said, we are doing nothing but stating our points of view. Giving you a different perspective on the world. If you choose to take this as an insult, I think it says something about how strongly you believe in those things you state to be important.

[Critta]

I am a rabid IRA supporter so I naturally hate you. Havent you noticed this yet? :P

You evil, evil man... obviously you are hated by all of us brits.

Bloody IRA fanboi :P

[shutupandshave]

As SUAS has already said, we are doing nothing but stating our points of view. Giving you a different perspective on the world. If you choose to take this as an insult, I think it says something about how strongly you believe in those things you state to be important.

Faith and belief don't belong in politics...as I think Ummon once said.

[Critta]

I know, and I couldn't be bothered to argue with him at the time. But what is a point of view if not what you believe about something. Not many things in politics can be proven 100%, therefore any kind of opinion/point of view you give in a political debate is nothing more than a belief.

[shutupandshave]

Indeed, however if you cant accept other people's opinions, you dont deserve the righit to voice your own.

freedom of speech works two ways, and doesn't include hurling abuse at people.

[MVB]

ANGEL YUR A BIASTS ASSHOKLE

[MVB]

Actually, I think Angel is wrong often, just like I think suas is wrong often; the difference is I'm not going to insult them for it. When I have what I feel to be a good, strong argument against what they are saying, and/or when I have the energy to respond, I do.

HOWEVER, I don't respond by being stupid or just saying "clearly you're wrong," when it might not be clear to anyone besides yourself.

I will say that I think both Critta and Angel are so angry at the United States right now (I'm not using the word hate), they aren't arguing nearly as poignantly or clearly as suas sometimes does.

[shutupandshave]

Wrong often?

LIES

I am rarely wrong, because I rarely do anything other than convey people's opinions. :D

I'm just interested in the conversation baby... and I'm old enough to know that you cant often be definitely right in these conversations.

[MVB]

The fact that I often think you/your opinions are wrong doesn't mean they are :)

[shutupandshave]

Fair enough :)

[Larsson7]

Actually, I think Angel is wrong often, just like I think suas is wrong often; the difference is I'm not going to insult them for it. When I have what I feel to be a good, strong argument against what they are saying, and/or when I have the energy to respond, I do.

HOWEVER, I don't respond by being stupid or just saying "clearly you're wrong," when it might not be clear to anyone besides yourself.

I will say that I think both Critta and Angel are so angry at the United States right now (I'm not using the word hate), they aren't arguing nearly as poignantly or clearly as suas sometimes does.

r u serios?

I don't think I am angry at the USA at all.

I do question it's foreign policy because, imo, it picks and chooses who it should help and why. I believe Iraq was picked a s a target for the following reasons:

Strategicially important for US in this region
Oil
Easy target.

Other countries who are living under dictators do not enjoy the same pursuit of their rights for Democracy that the US provides the people of Iraq.

I doubt anyone could provide information that would show a close bond between USA and Iraq yet the USA are acting like they are helping out a poorer brother who really needs their help.

I do believe the Americans on this board expect that all other nations of the world should be grateful for the actions of the US. I would find it doubtful that some of the larger military powers see this invasion as a good thing because of the precedent it sets for others to do the same thing.

What happens, MVB, if China invade Taiwan and tell the USA "Hey, you guys invaded another country so we are just doing the same thing"

Although, in your minds, you invaded Iraq for the right reasons - China may think its reasons for invading Taiwan are equally valid and just.

What does the USA do then? Will it go to war with China to protect the democracy of Taiwan? That would be a war in which you really would know you were fighting. It could possibly be the last world war.

I think my argument in this matter has been perfectly lucid, however, blind National loyalty is preventing many Americans from seeing what a dangerous action this is.

[MVB]

I think what Bush has done in Iraq is absolutely 100% the very correct thing to have done, in every way. The execution by ground forces hasn't necessarily been perfect, obviously.

Are you accusing me of blind loyalty?

[Larsson7]

I think what Bush has done in Iraq is absolutely 100% the very correct thing to have done, in every way. The execution by ground forces hasn't necessarily been perfect, obviously.

Are you accusing me of blind loyalty?

Would the "right thing" for Bush to do be providing an affordable healthcare system for your own people?

Would the right thing be to reduce pollution produced in the US to levels that will not destroy the Earth?

Would it be the right thing to do to reduce guncrime, hate crime, race crime, sex crime at home?

There are a lot of "right things" to do for a President and it is somewhat surprising that he choose emancipating a nation who the USA has never really enjoyed a great accord with as interesting.

I think it is somewhat blind of those who greet this war with open arms to not be concious of the very possible, if not inevitable, fallout that will follow in it's wake.

When does this war become "Not the right thing to do"? Is it when the US death toll hits 10,000? 50,000? 100,000 or are you of the opinion that no matter how many die it will be OK?

Now you are an intelligent guy, MVB. Do you not see the rammifications that can lead from this? Do you think the USA will have the strength to beat the world if it comes to that?

[shutupandshave]

I think what Bush has done in Iraq is absolutely 100% the very correct thing to have done, in every way. The execution by ground forces hasn't necessarily been perfect, obviously.

Then yes I am.

100% correct = right information. If it could have been done better (such as the right information was presented about WMD etc) then it was not 100% to begin with.

[Ummon]

The argument what Bush has done in Iraq is wrong because he could have done better stuff, is IMHO wrong: the world is full of problems, and crises, the Bush administration has picked the one it thought essential to resolve.

It may be so that they were mistaken, but the American people has not voted so, therefore, in the eyes of the american people Bush has acted well. Since it is the Americans who do, or do not, enjoy the advantages of better healthcare in the U.S., and other similar stuff, we have no right to argue with their judgement that Bush has been doing the right thing. We're not American citizens.

About international law and preemptive strikes (better objection), the system, as it is now, does not work. The current destructive technologies we have access to can easily be acquired by dictators and terrorists. The attempt to quell the terrorist threat and improve the number of countries which adhere to democratic values, is an excellent way to ensure that WMDs are not going to be used on a large scale, thus hampering seriously our collective chances of survival.

Laws have to change according to new problems and the evolving needs of humanity. The old international law, with its U.N. security council stalemates, looks like a weak protection against the new threats our civilization is facing, which require quick and efficient decision-making on a global scale.

The challenge is to acquire this new capability in a democratic fashion, but the old system is obsolete anyway.

[shutupandshave]

The argument what Bush has done in Iraq is wrong because he could have done better stuff, is IMHO wrong: the world is full of problems, and crises, the Bush administration has picked the one it thought essential to resolve.
That's not what I was disagreeing with - I was disagreeing with the MVB saying he couldn't have done it any better.

Voting in doesn't count for much does it... wasn't hitler voted in (at least somewhere)?

[Ummon]

Sorry about not making that clear, I was referring to the various objections Angel has made in some of his posts.

Hitler was voted, I think he had something around the 20% of suffrages. He never had majority. Mussolini probably had even less.

EDIT: With regard to your objection, well, there's always something better one can do. I think that attacking Iraq was not the best possible choice, but sometimes by going forward with bad or less-than-good decisions, one ends being right.

I share all the basic principles if not the very reasoning which led the Bush administration to attack Iraq. And I do think that, if they have the resources, they should soon start with Iran and Syria right after Iraq. They do not have those resources, though. Luckily, in a sense. We live in dangerous times and only history will tell who's right and who's not.

[shutupandshave]

Of course things can always be done better - but the Iraq invasion was nowhere near 100%. There were (in my mind) three main reasons to attack. 1) WMD 2) AL-Q links 3) Terrorist marketplace 4) Hussein = cunt.
3 = true
1,2 = false. 50% is a long way away from 100%.

Well, America taking over the world COULD be a good thing - people would probably end up being happier eventually... but the same goes for almost anyone.

[JADezimar]

[QUOTE] will say that I think both Critta and Angel are so angry at the United States right now (I'm not using the word hate), they aren't arguing nearly as poignantly or clearly as suas sometimes does.[/QUOTE

Completely AGreed. But Angel has admitted to the whole im anti America thing Back in a different thread.]

[shutupandshave]

As you have admitted to be Anti-European/UK in previous threads?

[JADezimar]

Nope Im not anti Uk. The only time I hinted at a disgust to em was do to angel. Go read the posts again. I.E. They produced haters like angel.

(I think its funny how you guzy hold the double standards though. Angel can make comments about hating. You guyz can name call, But If I or someone does it to you. You bring out the book right and wrong)

[JADezimar]

Would the "right thing" for Bush to do be providing an affordable healthcare system for your own people?

Would the right thing be to reduce pollution produced in the US to levels that will not destroy the Earth?

Would it be the right thing to do to reduce guncrime, hate crime, race crime, sex crime at home?

There are a lot of "right things" to do for a President and it is somewhat surprising that he choose emancipating a nation who the USA has never really enjoyed a great accord with as interesting.

I forgot. When I am sitting at the computer I first have to open my eyes then read. I then when finish reading have to close my eyes, Then type, When done typing, I can move my head to the left or the right. I then can try to proof read as I have done. According to Angel, Bush And Americans are only capable of doing 1 thing at a time.

[shutupandshave]

More like fuck the Un and the Fascists Tendancies that euro Has displayed throughout the years.
Angel hadn't even posted in that thread when you wrote that JAD.

[MVB]

In regards to Angel's "is it right" comments ... I think he doesn't know what Bush exactly has done in office; let me elaborate point by point to his commments ...

Every company I've interviewed provides affordable health care for me. I don't see a problem. IMO Bush's approach to the whole healthcare system si a good one, and there aren't very serious problems right now.

Bush is the ONLY president of the two candidates, or any candidate besides republicans to date, who advocates renewable energy source research that actually is low-to-no pollution. Kerry advocated carbon-based "renewable" fossil fuels, which were really just long-term-reusable fossils, that still produced pollution. What Bush realizes, as an oli tycoon, and what no other people seem to realize, is that the oil companies own the patents and rights to all feasible renewable energy technologies, including hydrogen fuel. Unless you are a friend of the oil companies, you'll never convince them to start using that technology until they're good and ready, which will be when fossil fuels aren't worth what you pay for them.

Crime in the United States has been on a downward spiral for years, and that spiral has actually accelerated with Bush at the helm, though Presidents have little to do with solving crime, to be honest. The death penalty, which Bush supports, certainly drastically reduces murder rates in the states which advocate it as a punishment option.

This war is the right thing to do, in my opinion, because it is earning freedom for 25 million Iraqis, and because it removed a dictator who had every ability -- and may have already been -- to support terrorists who would attack the United States and ALL free peoples, because that's who they hate. One man's freedom may be another man's tyranny, but Freedom is NOT another Nation's tyranny. That silly phrase, I think mentioned by someone else, does not apply to an entire nation. Our freedom is Saddam's tyranny, or Al Sadr's tyranny; it is not the Iraqi Peoples' tyranny.

I'm a long term thinker; Angel, more Americans died during our Civil War than have died if you combine EVERY AMERICAN CONFLICT IN HISTORY together; I'm a historical and a long-term thinker; I'm willing to accept that freedom comes at a price. What kind of hypocrites would we be to say that freedom is only worth it for us, and that when we have the ability to stop tyranny we won't b/c we don't feel like it costing us anything, or because money-motivated (oil-motivated) nations say we shouldn't.

This is why I advocate places like Sudan for invasion, but not places like NK (where it isn't feasible/doable to invade them, due to nukes).

I do see the rammifications that can result from this, DOWN the road. Unlike you maybe, I study history -- I have seen the results of a nation doing smoething unpopular when the rest of the world disagress, and I have seen what happens to strong nations and to weak nations in this case. We are a strong nation, and the world may disagree with us now. When peace comes to Iraq -- which it will if we stay the course regardless of cost and public opinion -- the world will view it in hindsight as the right thing to have done, seeing the freedom of the Iraqi people as not something you could criticize.

I appreciate that you think I'm an intelligent guy. Consider that each coin has two sides.

[shutupandshave]

Every company I've interviewed provides affordable health care for me. I don't see a problem. IMO Bush's approach to the whole healthcare system si a good one, and there aren't very serious problems right now. no but you have a university education and so can get a job - there are millions of Americans working shitty jobs that dont offer the same luxuries as you are afforded.

and what no other people seem to realize, is that the oil companies own the patents and rights to all feasible renewable energy technologies,
Oh I realise that very well... and it would be wise not to get me started on this... Why the hell are all these oil companies that "apparently" own the rights to everything from wave energy to hypergravdistortionblahblah (if you listen to the extremists) not releasing this information now? Why not 30 years ago when they started buying this stuff. The oil companies are making a profit at the expense of the planet and I challenge anyone to defy that.


Edit: I dont think the world disagrees about Iraqi's being happier, or Saddam being bad, or Iraq needing regime change. I think people object to the amount of BS that went along with it.

[MVB]

I even object the amount of BS in hindsight. The slight variation is that I believe the President was deceived as well, as was our entire government. I don't think Bush did the "wrong" thing because I believe he trusted our intelligence, which turned out to be flawed. Instead of overreacting and pulling out in an attempt to sway public opinion, Bush then made the deicision to stay the course and see things through to their RIGHT conclusion, instead of wrongly giving up on Iraq and leaving the Iraqi people in a huge mess.

This is why I don't like most anti-Bush supporters; you see, most anti-Bush people oppose him for things that really weren't his fault at all.

[shutupandshave]

I have stated that Bush may well have believed it. If he didn't, or he knew that the evidence was flawed - then that's a whole different kettle of fish... It's not even worth debating it.

You know how these things work though... and whoever's fault it may have been down the line, the buck stops with the president... as it does in any other civilised nation. We're not talking about not being able to find someone that shoplifted in kentucky - we're talking about wading into a country under a LOT of false pretences and all manner of innocent people getting killed in the process...

Will you not feel a twinge of doubt if he makes similar claims about another country?

[JADezimar]

Quote:
More like fuck the Un and the Fascists Tendancies that euro Has displayed throughout the years.


Angel hadn't even posted in that thread when you wrote that JAD.

oh forgive me that was to when you called the states fascist. For the same tendancies that euro has shown too, once it had come to light ;)

[JADezimar]

all manner of innocent people getting killed in the process...

Iraqies are dying regardless of whether were there or not. As long As Sadaam was in rule. Thats the lamest argument people use.

[Larsson7]

[QUOTE] will say that I think both Critta and Angel are so angry at the United States right now (I'm not using the word hate), they aren't arguing nearly as poignantly or clearly as suas sometimes does.[/QUOTE

Completely AGreed. But Angel has admitted to the whole im anti America thing Back in a different thread.]

JAD - you are a gigantic cocksucker.

This much is true.

Despite the fact that I have said - on numerous occasions - I AM NOT ANTI AMERICAN, You constantly jump on a lone crusade of branding me as such.

You Sir, are a fucking retard. You seem to lack the capicity to read and understand (lets not start on your spelling, punctuation and grammar)

You simply want to take potshots at me constantly because I dont roll over and bow to all things American and how Americans conduct their business.

WAKE UP!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Billions of people, worldwide, do not agree that America is right all the time.

You have created this lone cusade that I am Pro IRA and Anti American -

Both of which are not true.

As a new member be careful how you step. I am an Admin here and could modify/delete your posts or ban you outright, however, I am not prepared to do any of those yet.

Should you continue on your crusade to blemish me with comments I have not said - I will take it to the Officers/Senior Officers forum to decide your fate.

Please note that I have NO OBJECTION to you expressing your Point of View, however, I do take exception to you branding me with things that I have not nor would not say.

Please behave yourself in a decent manner or accept the consequences.

P.S - I hate handing down the law, however, I would do it to anyone who is being a fucking obnoxious prick to another member.

[shutupandshave]

oh forgive me that was to when you called the states fascist. For the same tendancies that euro has shown too, once it had come to light

Which was when? And incidently what evidence is there to support that, or were you just name calling

[JADezimar]

That whole posts is a crock. When you Out-right called me names for my views before I ever attacked you.

JAD - you are a gigantic cocksucker.

As a new member be careful how you step. I am an Admin here and could modify/delete your posts or ban you outright, however, I am not prepared to do any of those yet.

Wow now were on a power trip. Saying youll suspend or possibly delete a user for, Things you are doing yourself. Uh ill call you hypocrite.

[JADezimar]

Which was when? And incidently what evidence is there to support that, or were you just name calling

Suas Dont you keep track of things you say? You are constantly asking when did I say that. To Karma, Mvb, Me probably others too. You should really start to track what you say. And try to remember.

[Larsson7]

That whole posts is a crock. When you Out-right called me names for my views before I ever attacked you.

.



Wow now were on a power trip. Saying youll suspend or possibly delete a user for, Things you are doing yourself. Uh ill call you hypocrite.

I will never suspend anyone.

I will, however, always follow the family ethos that we have here.

Should you continue to spread lies that I am "Anti Amerian", "Pro IRA", "Racist" - then I will ask the Officers/Senior Officers to decide what action, if any, should be taken.

Should Suas, Drunk, LardGibs, Demon, Critta etc etc spew unsubstantiated lies against another member here - I would advocate the same action.

You are stepping way out of line and, despite the many times I have publicly stated otherwise, you continue to call me "Pro IRA".

MVB, Stealth, Psycho and many others have known me on an online basis for 4 plus years and have never had to call me pro terrorst

[JADezimar]

lol. Well Go back and look at some of the things you called me. And what you called America. You should go back, Everyone should go and re-read federal deficit.

[Magus]

Quote Them. Link them. Since I just read all of Angels posts in that thread, and the main thing I saw of interest was a refutation of a point you made in another thread.

[JADezimar]

For an educated guy, MVB, that is probably the dumbest thing I have ever heard you say.

This was before Me and Angel ever started talking directly to eachother I know its nit picky. But it shows Angel already getting defensive over his opinoins.

Originally Posted by JADezimar
Id hate to c a world where china was on top >.< no offense to the chinese but the government has often times been more aggressive than even the states o0.

Interesting. I cannot remember the last time China invaded another country but I do remember the last few that the US have invaded.

He Went as far as Defending China, That when invading in the pasts do so for conquering not just trying to do a good thing. That Is when I started to believe Angel was completely biast and racist to the states. Not to mention he slamns the states yet again.

By Ummon
During the 1945-1990 period China has invaded Korea, Vietnam (and they have been annhiliated in a short battle by the Vietnamese) and Tibet. Tibet is still under chinese rule, and N. Korea is a (very roguish) satellite state of China.

Angel
Is there some research I need to do as I have no recollectio, certainly in my lifetime, of China being an agressor towards another nation.

I can remember the USA invading Iraq (twice), Grenada and, just outside my living memories, Korea and Vietnam!

Please let me know how China has been "on top of conquering just like the states" since China has not invaded anyone! (not that I know of)

hmm heres a point where Angel States unreal facts. Didnt he state earlier to me about the banning of me that he doesnt state opinions like fact. o0
Again he defends china then slamn the states. I also Really dislike the fact he called the U.S a conquering nation when we dont hold any territories outside of the United States.

Who am I pointing fingers at? The US?

Why would that surprise you?

That looks like a blatant admittance to biast opinoins/hatred of the united states.

Yup - The Dollar is the currency to be holding today because it is worth shit.

Tell me why the US$ should be the currency of choice? No one wants that worthless POS currency (unless you are going on holiday to the USA and want to take advantage - like me )

Yep Another statement that would state he really hates the States. I dont go around calling the euro etc A pos currency. Or make false claims that no one would ever want to own it. No one in there right mind would make a claim like that unless they got a true problem.

Uh huh - you really are fucking smart - right?

Angel Said that to Karma.

If we are getting a better rate of £ to $ then we are better off, assknocker.

Angel also said that to Karma.

OMG - Americans come to Ireland for a holiday so they fund the IRA - am I rite!? You Sir, talk the biggest pile of shit in defense of your arguments. You do not even HAVE an argument because you cannot think for yourself.

ANother statement from Angel to me.

You live on the diatribe of what your government feed you and vomit it back into the faces of people who can actually think for themselves.

Again Angel said that to me.

Your country has killed millions all around the world in support of "Life, Liberty and the pursuit of happiness" You sir, are the biggest fucking hypocrite of all.
It must be since the reverse operates with you

I would like to c the millions. But another hatred, Statement from Angel. How many wars have we been in unjustified that would add up to 1 million ?

[JADezimar]

Holy Fucking Shit!

I am praying that you are not taking a major in Economics.

This is a statement to Karma, In which Angel new very well that Karma is majoring in economics. Or atleast he claimed he did earlier in the thread or different one. Prior to that posts.

Again I posts alll this is becuase I had reasoning to my Posts and for Angel to sit back and say he never got rude either is completely wrong. Theres alot more threads ill cover thats just one. One of Angels more docile ones.

[Magus]

1: Means nothing. I call friends worse daily.

2: Defending China? So? Thats like saying defending America is wrong, because they have done wrong things

3: He's wrong. That can happen, you know. He even says as much: "(not that I know of) "

4: I frequently malign America. If I was about to insult a country or nationality, you could place a pretty sure bet on it being America or Americans. Does that make me anti-american? Possibly, depending on the definition, but I doubt it.

5: Dont go around insulting the Euro? "You can take your euro dollar and shove up your gay ass" I beg to differ. Besides, insulting a currency now? Are you saying every issue of America is sancrosanct to the point where we cant insult it, or risk "state he really hates the States"?

6: Plain "You are stupid insults"? Um, wtf sir. This isn't even the argument being made. To restate: "Should you continue to spread lies that I am "Anti Amerian", "Pro IRA", "Racist" - then I will ask the Officers/Senior Officers to decide what action, if any, should be taken." Lies =/= insults. This point can be applied to several I have made above.

7: See above

8: See above, and In addition, your argument in this case happens to be bullshit. I likely would have responded in the same way, with a bit more civility and a link to where you can sign up for a logic course.

9: That's a bit low, I'll easily concede that. However, lets not get into an insult war, as I can easily find by browsing more insults of the same or greater caliber. To quote: "And number 2 Angel you are fricken stuipd pathetic moron. You can take your euro dollar and shove up your gay ass, As america fucks you like the little gay fag you are. Anyone that even gives half of what you ever say any merit is a total moron. Cuase you are a racists biast human being. You are the type that cuase deep hatred. Maybe you can ....... justify your own nation and why it is so great with a homeland IRA ?" Not only insulting, but a few unjustified lies thrown in to boot.

10: The millions, possibly. Depends how broad a definition you accept. However, consider Vietnam. Look up casualty figures. How many of those are America's fault? Again, Hatred =/= lies.

Edit: Formatting

[Magus]

This deserves its own point. Hatred and Insults do not equal spreading lies. Otherwise Drunk, and Laser would be long gone. However, they do not call people baby-rapists, terrorists (btw, fuck Rod Paige), racists, etc.

You do. This is fundamentally different.

[JADezimar]

Hmmmmz So your saying its all ok for Angel But my replies and frustration to him is wrong ?

Dont forget about the other thread. That has to be considered in this argument which is unified. You Kinda left that out o0. I perfectly pointed out and stated why I did so. And to call me a cocksucker is no different. Maybe in My mind thats one of the worst things and offensive things in my book. Its all your point of view and how a person takes it. You dont have the right to decide which is right and wrong.

http://www.tlsconline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9750#post9750

this conversation shows a bit more of the whole Situations also. These are interlininked.

[JADezimar]

2: Defending China? So? Thats like saying defending America is wrong, because they have done wrong things

Why defend 1 nation for 1 act while attack another nation for that act. FIRST thats hypocricy. That would Define you as a hypocrite. SECOND why ? the only real intention or reasoning for this would be a animosity or ill will towards the 1 over the other.

I frequently malign America. If I was about to insult a country or nationality, you could place a pretty sure bet on it being America or Americans. Does that make me anti-american? Possibly, depending on the definition, but I doubt it.

Its just as wrong for Hitler to malign against a Jew, As it is for a Person to malign against a certain nation. For dislike or regard. It all depends on the manner in which its done if its acceptable or not.

9: That's a bit low, I'll easily concede that. However, lets not get into an insult war, as I can easily find by browsing more insults of the same or greater caliber. To quote: "And number 2 Angel you are fricken stuipd pathetic moron. You can take your euro dollar and shove up your gay ass, As america fucks you like the little gay fag you are. Anyone that even gives half of what you ever say any merit is a total moron. Cuase you are a racists biast human being. You are the type that cuase deep hatred. Maybe you can ....... justify your own nation and why it is so great with a homeland IRA ?" Not only insulting, but a few unjustified lies thrown in to boot.

I never claimed to not insult him. But he did it too. He earlier Claimed when we go back to the whole delete account etc. That he didnt do it. And it was wrong for me to do so. I also am stating Why is it ok for him to do so and not I ?

LAst but not least Karma And Saus will respond to eachother almost every time 1 of them or the other posts. I think thats another frustration Angel has. I should be able to posts every time I want when he does. Karma and Saus have constantly attacked eachother. And Saus has brought up a few things over and over again with karma. When it came to a point that Saus wanted to prove to Karma. Why should I give up?

[Magus]

No, I am saying that his hatred is just as "acceptable" as yours. However, Angel isnt making an issue out of your hatred.

In the other thread, I am arguing like a more civilized member of the Political Discussions, and because I think your views are wrong, I am arguing against them.

Here, I am acting as an Officer and pointing out that if I were to go ballistic and type "SHUT UP YOU STUPID RETARDED WHOREMONKEY ASSHOLE CUNT!!!!!" after every post you made, It would be "allowed", though I bet stealth would cloak my posts. However, what you are doing is persisting lies despite his refutation of said. This would be like me constantly saying you are a member of Al-Qaeda. You could be, true, but I find it unlikey.

And true, I dont have the right to judge right from wrong. No one does, unless whatever higher powers there may be decide to become incarnate. However, I do have a vote as an officer about what is right and wrong here. Being called a cocksucker may be the most offensive thing in the world to you. Fine. However, if myself and however-many officers would be required find that it is acceptable on these boards to call people that and not a racist or terrorist supporter, then that shall be the law on these boards.

And I still wouldn't vote for any action, unless you didn't stop. Is civility really that hard anyways (that goes to you too Angel)

Edit: And damn, now the entire conversation here is split. I'll bring over my post I just made there because I believe it goes to the heart of the matter.

"And it is your right to tell him why you think he is wrong, through your interpretation of his logic. It is not your right to tell him that he supports terrorism. It is your right to tell him why you think a viewpoint taken by him is racist. It is not your right to call him a Racist.

Have I made the difference clear enough?"

[JADezimar]

No, I am saying that his hatred is just as "acceptable" as yours. However, Angel isnt making an issue out of your hatred.

On the contrary he is. Or everyone wouldnt be getting upset. And he wouldnt be asking for an officers vote. If he has the right to dislike my country and what it stands for. I have a right to dislike him. As long as I do it in all fairness and its not a constant bit of flames. Ive already shown you in the other thread where I come to my conclusions. I have refuted what Angel says about the States several times. But that Doesnt mean He doesnt have the right to come to his conclusion somehow. Just the same way I have about him. Its just as much a persons right to dislike an individual as it is a whole country.

Allthough I think many would agree. That hating 1 person is more of an indivudual basis. Where as if you hate a country thats a form of racisms.

Edited

[JADezimar]

And it is your right to tell him why you think he is wrong, through your interpretation of his logic. It is not your right to tell him that he supports terrorism. It is your right to tell him why you think a viewpoint taken by him is racist. It is not your right to call him a Racist.

Have I made the difference clear enough?"

Then why is it angels right to call me a cocksucker. INstead of he thinks Im a cocksucker? Why does he have the right to say Iraq doesnt want us there. When he should be saying he thinks Iraq doesnt want us there. Why does he have the right

Why does he and you guzy have the right to tell me that I dont have the right to claim that. When he has the right to claim that the United States has supported terrorisms etc ?

[Magus]

Better point: I think that the American school system sucks. Alot. I think that those people who think that private schools are the answer are not thinking straight, because it would screw over new immigrants and other groups.

Does this mean I can declare them anti-American for going against American ideals? Can they call me Anti-American for going against the status quo americana?

Alot of your points revolve on an incomplete basis for your statements. Angel thinks the Dollar is a piece of shit. Therefore, he "state[s] he really hates the States". It does not follow. This makes just as much sense as declaring me anti-american for saying the school system is a piece of shit.

So blindly saying: "I hate all british. I dont care who, I dont care why, I hate them. The goddamn british can all burn in hell."
Is different from saying: "I think the P.M. and his government are a great collection of fucking morons, that brits are too fucking stupid to realize this, that the Pound is useless compared to the Euro or Dollar, that the brits in their history have been incredibly warlike, going up to the Falklands, etc.
And that is the difference that I see, and why I strongly believe that the label of Racist is wrong.

Note: The opinions except the concluding one are all hypothetical examples, factual errors included.




Edit: And I may or may not continue this in the future, since I need sleep, and when I get up there are better things to do. E-mail me if it comes to a vote.

And for those that are Americans here, happy Thanksgiving tomorrow.

[JADezimar]

Alot of your points revolve on an incomplete basis for your statements. Angel thinks the Dollar is a piece of shit. Therefore, he "state[s] he really hates the States". It does not follow. This makes just as much sense as declaring me anti-american for saying the school system is a piece of shit.

Now your just using any basic example you want to. When you want to present my whole case come back to me other words I will be done talking to you. Its rediculous for me to have to posts the same crap over and over again. When you are just gonna ignore it. And Reposts and single out only Certain examples.

(you were better off trying to make a valid point when you were being clever) What happened?

I have a plane and simple right to think he's biast. To tell me I dont is being Dictatorial. And For you to believe me or not is your right. Im seriously offended everytime Angel posts, Becuase I know Its never gonna be positive. You know why? Becuase He doesnt like the states period plane and simple. In one posts he went as far as bitching that the United States didnt jump on germany and hitler sooner. Yet We eventually did clean up in wwII. But he says we were in the wrong there. I would think people would clue in that he's biasts I have reasoning to beleive this and have the right. Its one thing Ya I can disagree with the shootings france did. But You wont here me constantly dogging on them or any other nation for that matter. I may make Points about Certain things I dislike, The IRA for example. Or things I think they do wrong, The IRA for example but every living posts I posts wont be about a dislike of a certain nation. Comon People cant clue in that theres got to be some animosity there ? Comon, IF someone had to say that much bad shit about Black people over and over again. The entire community would be asking him if he was racists. I Damn sure know a black person would ask him that. Its one thing to have a bad opinion. Why hell I dont like Kerry, Hes American. I dont Like Certain things about the American government and IVe priored posted it, for instance certain perversions of our laws. But I also know other countries are flawed also. When Angel posts he litterally defends the same flaws of other countries that he attacks on the states. THATS BLATANT biast. How Blind do you have to be to not want to c this? This I find offensive.

And happy thanksgiving to all. Including Angel :)

[shutupandshave]

I think JAD is Karma in disguise :)

[Critta]

In one posts he went as far as bitching that the United States didnt jump on germany and hitler sooner. Yet We eventually did clean up in wwII. But he says we were in the wrong there.

To be fair, you may have helped out eventually in WWII, but we had been asking yor for assistance in the war since 1939 when Europe was being systematically invaded and captured by the Nazi's.

You finally joined the war in 1942 after Pearl Harbour when all of Europe aside from the British Isles and other small pockets of resistance had been conquered by the Axis.

I think the problem here isn't that you helped. Rather that the help very, very nearly came too late. If it wasn't for the RAF winning the Battle of Britain in the sky, there wouldn't have been much of Europe left for you to "clean up".

Hope this makes it a little clearer.

I may make Points about Certain things I dislike, The IRA for example. Or things I think they do wrong, The IRA for example but every living posts I posts wont be about a dislike of a certain nation. Comon People cant clue in that theres got to be some animosity there ?

What about the IRA? All I have ever seen you do is mention them, maybe you could be a little more specific?

The IRA is also the root of one of my major gripes with America, you funded them for many years.

I dont like Kerry, Hes American. I dont Like Certain things about the American government and IVe priored posted it, for instance certain perversions of our laws. But I also know other countries are flawed also.

I don't like Bush. Not because he's American, but because he's giving your country a bad name. Kerry wasn't much better, and probably would have made things worse.

JAD, just a polite request, but is there any chance you could give your posts a bit of a proof read before you post them please? It is sometimes a little hard trying to work out the exact nuances of what you are saying because of spelling mistakes. Cheers!

Hope everyone has a good Thanksgiving! It's today isn't it?

[Critta]

Why defend 1 nation for 1 act while attack another nation for that act. FIRST thats hypocricy. That would Define you as a hypocrite. SECOND why ? the only real intention or reasoning for this would be a animosity or ill will towards the 1 over the other.

I think you have got a slight misconception in your head here, the statements which you believe were defending china were I imagine, not trying to defend that country, but point out (as I have said many times on the old boards) that the US is just as bad as everyone else.

The only reason it appears that people like myself and Angel seem so against America is that people like yourself and Karma will go to any lengths to prove your nation is not guilty of any wrong-doing, ever. This becomes frustrating after a while, there are times I know I am posting the truth, yet get told in no uncertain terms that I am wrong and my point completely ignored because I'm biased/lefty/stupid etc.

Is that me being biased against America, or the person who I am arguing against being biased for it?

At the end of the day, we all have a bias in any situation, it is what causes us to be us, rather than a mindless pleb. I'm actually a lot less anti-American than you all think, however, some of the decisions your government has made over the years annoy me - mainly all the decisions involving causing physical violence (either directly - i.e war, or indirectly - funding terrorist groups etc.) and there have been quite a few of them made, often unneccesarily, and this is the part which annoys me the most.

[shutupandshave]

I think Critta has made the point quite well, but I still want to say the same thing in my own words (again, because no one listened the last 15 times I made it).

The thing that is annoying, is the "America has done no wrong, and can do no wrong" attitude... It's fucked up a whole lotta things, at least 15,000 families have been destroyed in Iraq in the past year or so. It HAS invaded a shit load of countries, it HAS fucked up, and it HAS funded terrorists. There are other countries that have done this too, I know, we all know. That doesn't make it okay for any of them.
It is the attitude that everyone else has done wrong, and when the US does these things - it's right.
It is the attitude that if I say "the US has funded terrorism" people immediately question it... It's not about laying blame, it's about the sharing of knowledge and ideas, and the sooner people begin to look at their country objectively the sooner these kinds of conversations will end.

The answer to "has the US ever funded terrorists" is not "fuck off, you stupid bastard." or "YOU'RE A STUPID RACIST HATER", it's not even "WELL THE EUROPEANS DID IT FIRST"... it's "yes it has...(followed by any other comments).

[Magus]

Suas wins the thread. Or maybe Critta, cant decide.

Anyway, thank you for reminding me why the only political discussions I ever partake in are in the Reliquary or in person. I'll take my leave from these boards (the political ones, not the TLSC boards).

However, I will make two points first. Everyone is biased. Anyone who denies that is an idiot. As long as you are a human being, you will be biased. I never said Angel wasnt biased. About your example about if this were about race, here would be the difference: We also have people who (following the example) constantly say they do no wrong and are the incarnation of god upon earth. Constantly denying that point would not make him racist, it would make him realist.

Anyways, happy thanksgiving (I specified America because I thought it was only celebrated here, could be wrong), and I'll cya all elsewhere.

[MVB]

I won the thread when I answered Angel's "is this right" post and he ceased to carry on the argument further.

All these other jokers are n00bs. Clearly.

[Larsson7]

I won the thread when I answered Angel's "is this right" post and he ceased to carry on the argument further.

All these other jokers are n00bs. Clearly.

Incorrect, Bitch.

You win nothing here :D

Sometimes I let arguments drop because i simply cannot be bothered to repeat myself for the millionth time.

Then again - You are just a stupid fucking American and I hate you since I am a racist.

Love

Angel

[MVB]

Or maybe there was no good answer, cunt.

<3

[shutupandshave]

I won
And your prize... I think I left it on the floor...you might want to pick that up there, in case it breaks...

*smirks to the camera and viewer hears zipping sound as picture fades*

[MVB]

Fag, I told you I wasn't going to marry you suas. It's about my definition of marriage; it's not you, it's me.

You pick it up.

<3

[JADezimar]

The only reason it appears that people like myself and Angel seem so against America is that people like yourself and Karma will go to any lengths to prove your nation is not guilty of any wrong-doing, ever. This becomes frustrating after a while, there are times I know I am posting the truth, yet get told in no uncertain terms that I am wrong and my point completely ignored because I'm biased/lefty/stupid etc.

B.S Ive admitted We have done wrong. You just seem to pick alot of examples I think We had the right to do.

Critta
The IRA is also the root of one of my major gripes with America, you funded them for many years.

Critta You have still yet to provide the proof that USA funded the IRA. I mean if you want to get real technical, Irishman And brittains fund them too. For god sakes the IRA is Part of the UK but you go as far as to put blame on some U.S businessmen that fund them that came from the UK. Which Is alot more in the wrong here ?

[shutupandshave]

Woah, the UK funded the IRA, the IRA is part of the UK?
WTF?

[MVB]

He's saying that members of the IRA are technically UK citizens. He's saying that businessmen in the UK may well have funded the IRA, as transplanted Irishmen for isntance, just as much as US businessmen may have.

I don't think he's saying the UK gov't funded the IRA, nor is he saying the IRA is a sponsored UK organization, just that its members are technically UK citizens.

Not that he's right, but that's what he's implying.

[shutupandshave]

Well they're not, they're Irish citizens.

JAD - have you got any evidence to back up your claim that the IRA was funded by the UK?

[JADezimar]

MVB basically spelled it out for you. I just find it really far fetched to blame america for the IRA. When the IRA exist in Ireland. For them to not be found out. Im assuming Actual Irishman would be apart of it. And meaning there money and possibly businessmen money from the "UK" would be supporting them. To put the blame fully on america for something your own people are partaking in is just using the States as another scape goat.

Why dont you guzy go protests the IRA more. Instead of Spending all your time on IRaq? I mean seriously since its been stated A Government or President or Country or whatever can only do 1 thing at a time. You guzy should be concentrating on Your homeland affairs not Iraq.

Would the "right thing" for Bush to do be providing an affordable healthcare system for your own people?

Would the right thing be to reduce pollution produced in the US to levels that will not destroy the Earth?

Would it be the right thing to do to reduce guncrime, hate crime, race crime, sex crime at home?

There are a lot of "right things" to do for a President and it is somewhat surprising that he choose emancipating a nation who the USA has never really enjoyed a great accord with as interesting.
Angel
You spout this bullshit of "Oh these people have to resort to car bombs and blah blah blah" These people have to fight within their means. They are not equipped with stealth bombers, aircraft carriers or nukes - they have to strike with what they have.

So angel Do you atleast take this quote back ? Cuase I dont c how Them shooting there own people has to do with fighting within there own means.

[Larsson7]

So angel Do you atleast take this quote back ? Cuase I dont c how Them shooting there own people has to do with fighting within there own means.

No JAD - I do not take it back.

The point I was making was that Insurgents/Guerilla fighters/Freedom Fighters/Terrorists (however you care to name them) have to use unconventional ways to strike as opposed to the way a regular army will conduct warfare.

Regular armies have billion dollar budgets and awesome logistical support along with mammoth numbers of troops and back up/support staff.

These are all things that Insurgents/Guerilla Fighters/Freedom Fighters/Terrorists do not have access to.

[shutupandshave]

Why dont you guzy go protests the IRA more. Instead of Spending all your time on IRaq? I mean seriously since its been stated A Government or President or Country or whatever can only do 1 thing at a time. You guzy should be concentrating on Your homeland affairs not Iraq.
Wait - you still think the IRA is active in terrorist activity... Perhaps you should get your facts straight before telling me what to do.
If the IRA were still being terrorists yes I WOULD be trying to do something about them, but they're not... life is sometimes still edgy in N.Ireland but it is a damn site better than it was. There are still occasional killings but no more than there are in the rest of the world.

JAD - have you got any evidence to back up your claim that the IRA was funded by the UK
Where? I had a look and couldn't find it. NOWHERE (that I could see) does it explain how the UK funds the IRA.

I am not going to let this one go.

[Critta]

MVB basically spelled it out for you. I just find it really far fetched to blame america for the IRA. When the IRA exist in Ireland. For them to not be found out. Im assuming Actual Irishman would be apart of it.

JAD, sometimes I wonder about you :P

Right...

The IRA is teh acronym for the Irish Republican Army, a terrorist group who operate openly in Ireland and in the 70s were engaged in conflict with British security forces for control of Northern Ireland.

They have never been a particularly secret organisation, they have a political party called Sinn Fein who are part of the Irish government. They are an Irish group, fighting against the UK (contrary to what you may believe, the UK and Ireland (or EIRE as it should be known) are completely seperate countries, with the UK controlling the North Part of Ireland.

Tell my, why would a UK citizen want to be a part of a group fighting to cut down on his countries holdings? Why would the IRA trust anyone who was not Irish, in the terrorism game, I imagine it pays to be cautious, an English man trying to join the Ira would most likely just be shot or sent away.

Why dont you guzy go protests the IRA more. Instead of Spending all your time on IRaq? I mean seriously since its been stated A Government or President or Country or whatever can only do 1 thing at a time. You guzy should be concentrating on Your homeland affairs not Iraq.

Iraq was made our problem, the situation in NI is all but under control now. In the height of the IRA campaign, there were 1-2 attacks a week in London, now there is occasional sporadic fighting between security forces and IRA members in Ireland.

As far as proving that the US funded the IRA:

http://members.lycos.co.uk/inac/

Take a look at the posted site. Your government finally added the IRA to their list of terrorist groups in 2001. They have been operating since the 70s.

[JADezimar]

JAD - have you got any evidence to back up your claim that the IRA was funded by the UK

Saus
Where? I had a look and couldn't find it. NOWHERE (that I could see) does it explain how the UK funds the IRA.

I am not going to let this one go.

Again Saus Is it so hard to believe that People in the UK were not members of IRA and im sure there atleast there own money, if not money from businesss etc, funded the IRA. You went AS FAR as claiming the United States Funded the IRA, How the hell would the US have funded the IRA and not someone in the same country responsible for it ?

Like We stated critta You go as far as blaming, The U.S and hating the U.S for a few citizens. Yet actual Irishman are involved in this whole Thing too And you dont blame theM ? And Ya maybe this is a false beleif. But I beleive Ireland is apart of the UK

Plus, For all we know those people "The NOraid" are blooded Irishman. #2 We dont know if the site is credible or not, cuase its not an official Site that site is like one of the conspiracy sites. Etc Etc.

[JADezimar]

The point I was making was that Insurgents/Guerilla fighters/Freedom Fighters/Terrorists (however you care to name them) have to use unconventional ways to strike as opposed to the way a regular army will conduct warfare.

So now. Are you defending that they use those means? Sympathizing, Im not clear where you stand on those means. Becuase to the blatant eye you saying they have to use those means you seem to be ok with it.

[shutupandshave]

And Ya maybe this is a false beleif. But I beleive Ireland is apart of the UK
It's not a false belief, it's just not fact. If I said "I maybe wrong but I believe that Africa is a part of Mississippi" I would be equally wrong.

The reason then, that you find it so hard to believe is because you are misinformed. I guess it seems obvious to me, and crazy that anyone would think otherwise... but Ireland is not part of the UK... While you are googling the fact that the UK has funded the IRA, you can google a map of the UK. Why, for example, would a bunch of UK people be complaining that a part of the the UK was part of the UK instead of a part of the UK as it should be? It makes no sense. However, if I said "why would a bunch of Irish people be complaining that a part of Ireland was part of the UK instead of a part of Ireland like it should be" it would make more sense.

Anyway, please find this evidence or admit you were wrong.

[JADezimar]

Anyway, please find this evidence or admit you were wrong

What am I looking for ?

#2 so basically its still up in the air if Ireland is considered UK or not? This never ever became official ?

[shutupandshave]

No JAD, it is not up in the AIR, Ireland is not a part of the UK. Northern Ireland IS a part of the UK. The IRA are from Ireland.
The IRA is not a part of the UK.

You are looking for evidence that the UK has funded the IRA.

Northern Ireland is a seperate COUNTRY to Ireland (the Republic of Ireland)

[JADezimar]

Its absurd to beleive that the IRA is strictly of the ROI. And no other involvement, accept US involvement has been done. Now thats just blind ignorrance or a want to beleive your own country does not wrong ;)

Iraq was made our problem, the situation in NI is all but under control now. In the height of the IRA campaign, there were 1-2 attacks a week in London, now there is occasional sporadic fighting between security forces and IRA members in Ireland.

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/world/20041125-0817-nireland-firebombs.html

New wave of IRA attacks.

Some analysts estimate the current strength of the IRA at about 400 hard-core activists, with perhaps a similar number of 'auxiliary' or 'second-line' activists who can be called on in a crisis. Most of these members, known as 'volunteers', are concentrated in Northern Ireland, although a smaller number are based in the Republic of Ireland and there are also small cells in the UK. IRA cells have also operated from time to time in the USA and other overseas locations. Many of these volunteers may not necessarily be full-time but may work at other occupations.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/ira/inside/org.html

The day-to-day running of the IRA is conducted by a seven-person Army Council. Members of the council always include the chief of staff, the adjutant general and the quartermaster general. In recent times, the members have been mainly from Northern Ireland and the Border counties. Members of the present council come from Belfast, Derry, Donegal, north Monaghan and the Louth-Armagh border area.

One of those listed is a woman. Most of the names would not be known to the general public in Ireland but, despite the heavy concentration of names from the Republic in the executive, there is no doubt that the people who exercise real power in the organization - the members of the seven-person Army Council, are mainly from Northern Ireland or the Border counties.

Hey you said the North Ireland was the uK was it not ?

It is believed that operations in the UK formally come under the jurisdiction of the Southern Command, but in effect this arrangement seems a very loose one. During the bombings in London early this year, there is believed to have been as much input from the Northern Command as from the Southern Command.

Edited. so Suas didnt confuse my words with my sources.

[shutupandshave]

Yes the IRA has cells in the UK, but that is very different to the UK funding the IRA...
By your definition the US funds AL-Q because it also contains/contained AL-Q cells.

There is nothing in your links to suggest that the UK is funding the IRA.

No one has ever said that ONLY the US has funded the IRA.

[JADezimar]

Yes the IRA has cells in the UK, but that is very different to the UK funding the IRA...
By your definition the US funds AL-Q because it also contains/contained AL-Q cells.

No you guzy claimed the US Funds the IRA thats your definition get it straight. I dont think thats at all fair to use that definition, then to turn around when it turns on you to claim its my definition. I should be able to use your definitions to show you the flaw. For you to claim I cant use that definition and you can is highly flawed in itself.

Critta
As far as proving that the US funded the IRA
[url]http://members.lycos.co.uk/inac/[/url

Oh heres the link. Might I add. These members in the U.S could very well be the members that came to the states in the first place, that my more professional article states. Its interesting how poorly layed out crittas source is. It reminds me alot of the conspiracy theory sites. (Meaning, They have reason to beleive this, but no factual evidence)

[shutupandshave]

You're missing out an important word there Jad... which is ONLY.

You said "And no other involvement, accept US involvement has been done."

The actual conversation went along the lines of
<Suas>the US has funded the IRA [not the US funds the entire of the IRA]
<JAD>no the US has never funded the IRA, and anyway, the UK does
<suas>no, there is no evidence to support that.
<jad> there are IRA members in the UK

Just to make it clear one LAST time.
There are businesses in the US that have funded the IRA.
There is NO evidence to support the UK funding the IRA
the IRA is not a UK organisation
Ireland is not in the UK

Okay?

[JADezimar]

K Read those exerts those arent my statements those are an official fact site go read the link again saus it contradicts half of what you just said. These words particuliarly

There is NO evidence to support the UK funding the IRA
the IRA is not British
Ireland is not in the UK

And now theres reason to beleive those US business are from the IRA, From the site I posted above.

There are businesses in the US that have funded the IRA.

[JADezimar]

Suas
No JAD, it is not up in the AIR, Ireland is not a part of the UK. Northern Ireland IS a part of the UK. The IRA are from Ireland.
The IRA is not a part of the UK.

My Source
The day-to-day running of the IRA is conducted by a seven-person Army Council. Members of the council always include the chief of staff, the adjutant general and the quartermaster general. In recent times, the members have been mainly from Northern Ireland and the Border counties. Members of the present council come from Belfast, Derry, Donegal, north
Monaghan and the Louth-Armagh border area.
One of those listed is a woman. Most of the names would not be known to the general public in Ireland but, despite the heavy concentration of names from the Republic in the executive, there is no doubt that the people who exercise real power in the organization - the members of the seven-person Army Council, are mainly from Northern Ireland or the Border counties
It is believed that operations in the UK formally come under the jurisdiction of the Southern Command, but in effect this arrangement seems a very loose one. During the bombings in London early this year, there is believed to have been as much input from the NORTHERN Command as from the Southern Command.

Are you starting to c at all?

Suas
There are businesses in the US that have funded the IRA.

MySource
IRA cells have also operated from time to time in the USA and other overseas locations. Many of these volunteers may not necessarily be full-time but may work at other occupations.

Its saying the IRA Cells arnt even necessarily american. ;)

[shutupandshave]

Gah, that's like saying that AL-Q is American, because it is fighting for Muslims in America.

If these people consider themselves British, why are they fighting to kick the British off of the Ireland?

The closest thing to the IRA being an organisation based in the UK (which I wouldn't have debated about completely different) is that your link suggests that the N Ireland contigent may have as much power as the Southern.

Yes of course some of the IRA are based in Northern Ireland, but the organisation is Irish, not UK.

You have as much right to call the IRA a UK organisation as I have to call AL-Q an American organisation.

[JADezimar]

Yes of course some of the IRA are based in Northern Ireland, but the organisation is Irish, not UK

No JAD, it is not up in the AIR, Ireland is not a part of the UK. NORTHERN IRELAND IS a part of the UK.

k Ill answer your statement with your own statement here.

You gonna start saying Irishman thats government is part of the UK but there irishman so there not part of the UK. You gonna start saying the scotts are not UK? Its called the United Kingdom cuase there are multiple countries in your Empire, its not just england. Not just England makes up the UK. I find that arrogant that you possibly could be suggesting that. IF thats truly how you feel and beleive. Then maybe Scottland Ireland. Various other pre-english countries should be removed from your UK :)

[shutupandshave]

Then perhaps ALL the money from the US came from IRA cells over there... which may well be the case... however, as you are convinced that the IRA in the UK makes then English then you will also admit that the IRA in the US means that the IRA is an American terrorist organisation.

why didn't the US stop them... and the answer to that is - because the US didn't consider the IRA to be terrorists until 2001.... why's that?

If people in Northern Ireland are in the IRA they do not consider themselves to be British.

[shutupandshave]

*Sighs*
okay, so AL-Q is American then, because some of them are in America.
Good Job JAD, you've just claimed something ridiculous true based on the fact you would rather make things up than be wrong.

[JADezimar]

Are you saying Angel is not brittish, or possibly could consider he isnt brittish ? Cause he lives in IReland ? Why ill defend Angel on that one. He is a UK :) (of course im assuming he lives in North Ireland.)

[JADezimar]

okay, so AL-Q is American then, because some of them are in America.
Good Job JAD, you've just claimed something ridiculous true based on the fact you would rather make things up than be wrong.

Wrong al-q dont live here as american citizens. Those Northern Irshman are originally from NOrthern Ireland My Article states if you read it. Your just trying to really Twists the subject as much as possible cuase you dont like to admitt that you guzy may have involvement in terorrism.

[shutupandshave]

Angel doesn't live in Ireland, he lives in Northern Ireland I think... and if he DOES live in IReland, then no he's not British, he's Irish.

[shutupandshave]

YES, THERE ARE ALMOST CERTAINLY AL-Q CELLS LIVING IN THE US AS AMERICANS!!!!

[JADezimar]

So your admitting he's brittish if he lives in northern ireland ?

[JADezimar]

Find me links Suas. And there not living there to be americans this has been proved in another thread. If they came here with the intent to be terorrists they arnt american. Where as your northern Irishman if you read my article were already indegeoness to the area.

[shutupandshave]

Yes of course he is British because he lives in Northern Ireland.
Northern Ireland is part of Britain...

as I said in the other thread...


Let me clarify it - the UK thinks the IRA are terrorists, and have done for a long time.
There is no evidence to support that the IRA has been funded by anything other than IRA cells living in the UK
there IS evidence to support that US business (which have no known links to the IRA) has supported the IRA.

I do believe that semantically the IRA has had support from UK citizens (even though they are by definition traitors, and give up their UK status by helping the terrorists)... which is a level detail I hadn't considered... however this all started when you said that the US has never supported the IRA, so either you are wrong, and the US HAS supported the IRA, and so have a few members of the IRA in the UK (which would make me wrong), or you are wrong because the IRA never got money from the US (or the UK).

I admit that I did not consider the IRA members in N.Ireland to be British (because they were fighting against the British, and didn't want to be British - which is a fair assumption) and they might "technically" be (which I still believe is a technicality) - however by proving me wrong here, you have completely invalidated your original point, which is that if someone in a country supports a terrorist organisation then the country supports terrorism.

Basically, I am happy to concede that point 1) because I believe technically you are right, but also because 2) by saying that people that live in that country that support terrorism means that country supports terrorism - you are saying that the US supports the AL-Q because some people lived there for a while that were terrorists.... and that makes me laugh.


I dont have to find you links about people living in the US all their lives, because the UKers that support the IRA are no longer Ukers by definition... they want to be part of Ireland.

[shutupandshave]

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2002/nov2002/yem-n12.shtml

US citizen - terrorist.

Also killed in the attack was Kamal Derwish, 29, a US citizen who was named as an unindicted co-conspirator in the federal case against six men in Lackawanna, New York charged with giving “material support” to a terrorist organization for allegedly attending an Al Qaeda training camp in Afghanistan in early 2001. Derwish was born in Buffalo, the son of a steelworker.

There we go
the US is now supporting Al-Q according to you. I hope you make sure you tell people your opinions.

Here's another for you.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2002/06/10/terror-arrest.htm

And another
http://prisonplanet.com/terrorist_worked_with_fbi.html

It seems the feds believe that US Citizens can be terrorists - but You dont Jad? What do you know that they dont?
http://www.newstarget.com/001575.html

So back to the point. There are many anti-us terrorists that are US citizens. Personally I wouldn't count them as US citizens as they gave up that right when they decided to hurt the US - however, you insist that the IRA members living in N.Ireland are still from the UK, so these people MUST be US citizens - and because if you live in a country and then commit terrorism in that country, it means the country you are living in supports the terrorism - by YOUR definition, the US supports terrorism.

Now, do you see the hole you've dug?

[JADezimar]

you are saying that the US supports the AL-Q because some people lived there for a while that were terrorists.... and that makes me laugh.


I dont have to find you links about people living in the US all their lives, because the UKers that support the IRA are no longer Ukers by definition... they want to be part of Ireland.

So by definition those Al-q were never Ever EVer Americans. Cuase To be american you have to want to be. It was discussed in another thread if you dont remember what makes you american. And someone moving to america with intent of terrorist was never ever an american in the first place. Nor Would the US support there acts. But on the other hand Northern Irishman Were once grown up and raised As brittish. They are apart of your nation. ya its fair to say they want to be irishman and are giving up there right to be Brittish, But one day you could be in norhtern ireland talking to a gentleman thinking he's a britt but really deep down he's an IRA. Do you get my drift?

Here's another for you.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation...rror-arrest.htm

Nice find. But I didnt dig a hole. You guzy had started it. With the whole USA supports terrorism and we dont gists. All you did was prove you do also. Or We both dont but were both same. its your pick

it means the country you are living in supports the terrorism - by YOUR definition, the US supports terrorism.

Again that wasnt my definition that was your guys Defintion. Maybe not yorus maybe critta's. Maybe not critta's maybe angels. But you guzy aruge quite polarized its all the same :)

[shutupandshave]

Not really - because some US people supporting the IRA is a whole different thing to the US/UK supporting terrorist groups that attack them...

I never said the whole of the US supported the IRA. In fact I made the point of saying that it wasn't the whole of the US when other people did... so no, I never started it, and please dont suggest I did.

Thank you - and good night :)

[JADezimar]

Again that wasnt my definition that was your guys Defintion. Maybe not yorus maybe critta's. Maybe not critta's maybe angels. But you guzy aruge quite polarized its all the same


I never said the whole of the US supported the IRA. In fact I made the point of saying that it wasn't the whole of the US when other people did... so no, I never started it, and please dont suggest I did.

And whether You were wrong or not I didnt care. The fact that you just helped me prove the other 2 wrong makes me satisifed enough :0

[shutupandshave]

Jad, for the last time, - I have said that I didn't agree with them previously. Also, just because you and I believe that the US government didn't directly support the IRA (although the fact that the US government wouldn't classify the IRA as terrorists is evidence to the contrary) doesn't mean they didn't... it certainly doesn't PROVE them wrong.

The only thing you've proven is that you dont read what I write properly, and that you are willing to waste lots of times proving things that have already been said.

[JADezimar]

lol No Saus. Continue to Dance to Do whatever it takes to prove you and your political buddies are not wrong. Im satisfied on this topic quite thoroughly.

You already really gave in on the points that really count. Now your blowing smoke and I can bring them all up again if you would like ? :P

[shutupandshave]

Christ, you ARE Karma!

"Jad, for the last time, - I have said that I didn't agree with them previously. "

Read what I have written. YOU HAVE NOT PROVEN ME WRONG BECAUSE I DISAGREED WITH THEM TO BEGIN WITH.

As for other points?
Did you prove that Ireland was a part of the UK - NO... you just displayed your extreme ignorance about the whole situation?

[JADezimar]

As for other points?
Did you prove that Ireland was a part of the UK - NO... you just displayed your extreme ignorance about the whole situation?

No you Just stated Several times that Northern Ireland is part of the UK. And my Source blatantly States, That Northern Ireland People Indogenous to the area, Are also a large part of the IRA. You consider Angel A Britt and he is from northern Ireland Saus. So take your pick, Stop ignoring previous posts or Ill go on forever with you on this topic. I am not gonna let you end it with words like your extremely ignorant is what you proved yatta yatta yatta, hoping that people when they pop in will only read the last couple posts.

Read what I have written. YOU HAVE NOT PROVEN ME WRONG BECAUSE I DISAGREED WITH THEM TO BEGIN WITH.

Thats exactly what I said a couple posts up. Then you admitt there wrong. That right there says you disagree with them so you think there wrong. Then you went on to say there not wrong. So its like your changing your stance on the issue. Suas pick 1 or the other. You have Un-clearly switched sides several times on this topic when it looks convenient for you. You are doing you so called battle of witts (which mvb has xplained to you who is right or wrong, And on important topics like this a winner of a debate shouldnt win on a battle of witts.)


My source also says that within the last week. New Wave of Attacks had hit. And that the UK has reason to beleive more will hit. You stated the situation was pretty much dead and taken care of. I think your the ignorrant one.