US right galvanising European moderates towards the left

[shutupandshave]

Now it's quite apparent that the US moderates are to the right of European moderates, however what I've noticed happening recently is that many Euro moderates are galvanising their position in response to the US appearing to move to the right. This has the potential to polarise US/Europe in the same way that the US has become polarised. If Europe decides for some reason that the US is a threat to it's stability it could be the beginning of a lot of tension - with both sides being quite capable of wiping each other of the face of the earth simultaneously. While I think it very unlikely that the two powers are going to stand toe to toe in the forseeable future it does have the potential of causing problems...

To what point do people think this polarising will continue too (if they agree it exists at all)?
What measures could be taken to help ease the situations from both sides?

[Karmashock]

Now it's quite apparent that the US moderates are to the right of European moderates,
Or European moderates are to the left of American moderates.
however what I've noticed happening recently is that many Euro moderates are galvanising their position in response to the US appearing to move to the right.
Perhaps the US has moved right in response to your move to the left? Why do you assume that you're normal and that we're strange?
If Europe decides for some reason that the US is a threat to it's stability it could be the beginning of a lot of tension - with both sides being quite capable of wiping each other of the face of the earth simultaneously. While I think it very unlikely that the two powers are going to stand toe to toe in the forseeable future it does have the potential of causing problems.
I foresee some girly fight hair pulling from Europe, which we will largely ignore... their pms will pass and things will settle down.
To what point do people think this polarising will continue too (if they agree it exists at all)?
What measures could be taken to help ease the situations from both sides?
Mutual acceptance would be a start.
We don't go to your countries and analyze your elections or criticize for things that don't effect us. We don't care what you do... we would appreciate it if you didn't involve yourselves in our domestic politics... you wouldn't appreciate it if we involved ourselves in yours... Of course... your involvement only gave strength to the side that you oppose... and I imagine that our involvement would have the same effect... Ergo, we never will.
At any rate, I'm happy with Europe being a socialist mediocrity... you be happy with the US being moralistic capitalist bordello.
As to international affairs, Europe is divided… so pretending that it isn’t will only piss off those that disagree with you… which will shift focus from us to you.

[JADezimar]

Mutual acceptance would be a start.
We don't go to your countries and analyze your elections or criticize for things that don't effect us. We don't care what you do... we would appreciate it if you didn't involve yourselves in our domestic politics... you wouldn't appreciate it if we involved ourselves in yours... Of course... your involvement only gave strength to the side that you oppose... and I imagine that our involvement would have the same effect... Ergo, we never will.
At any rate, I'm happy with Europe being a socialist mediocrity... you be happy with the US being moralistic capitalist bordello.
As to international affairs, Europe is divided… so pretending that it isn’t will only piss off those that disagree with you… which will shift focus from us to you.

I couldnt have put it better myself. Its the problem, A righty has and idea or action a leftie doesnt like, and the lefty gets completely bent out of shape, puts its nose where it dont belong, And literally grows a hatred, Dislike of the rightie. thats are problem its not that we cant accept one another. Its The rightie you guzy view not as a person but as a object lower than you. This is utterly wrong. And I would think maybe if people would stop and think about what they sound like they would wisen up o0 You guzy are entitled to your opinion we are ours. But the rampant hatred from angel, etc is rediculous. Hatred only leads to more hatred you accomplish nothing. I seriuosly dont get what angel gets off on with his fricken problem. I just dont c how this affects him so bad. That he would like to be the new kkk leader against america and americans.

[MVB]

Karma makes some valid points. My only problem is the assumption that Europe is one happy undivided continent run by true moderates who are clearly the more 'normal' ones and it is the US which is too right, rather than Europe which is too left.

[shutupandshave]

The US elections affect the entire the world. Karma (amongst others) has repeatedly pointed out that the US is the most influential country in the world at the moment... Therefore the outcome of the US election DOES affect me. I dont think that gives me the right to try and force anyone to vote a certain way, but it does give me the right to voice my opinion.

[Forsaken]

I really don't care what happens in Europe, and I really don't see a problem with the basic Republican ideas in America. What I don't understand is where all this right-wing shit is coming from. Whether of not you agree, I think its pretty clear America has shifted towards a right-wing view since 9/11. I find this disconcerting, because so many conservative views are based on things that have seemingly no reasonable basis to them.

Our family used to be very good friends with a former republican congressman (who was considered a moderate by most), and he was always saying things like "we should force gays to move out of the country" and went on about how when there was a war against a country, people who are of that nationality and are US citizens shouldn't have the same legal rights.

And I say he's a former congressman because I believe at this moment he has been elevated higher in the system...

Republicans may have the successful businessmen, but IMHO most change occurs due to liberals. And I think this country needs change. A country can't survive if its trying to adhere to old times rather than adapting to new ones, or better yet, creating the new times.

[MVB]

Fors, I think you're view on most right wingers is horribly flawed and biased. I consider myself generally a moderate, with right-leaning beliefs.

Left-leaning beliefs, such as pro-choice, are NOT based on facts or logic, but are based ENTIRELY on emotion and social norms alone. Think before you talk, and/or talk to a wider view of right-wingers with an open mind, which you clearly don't have on the subject.

[shutupandshave]

I also dont have a problem with basic republican ideas.
Read through Jad's post though - and you'll see there is a lot of emnity between the right and the left. It's an example of someone on one side (in this example the right) being abusive to someone on the left because the people on the left are abusive.

This type of attitude galvanises me to my views (which would be American left - or EU centre) because it shows me that someone right wing is unreasonable and insulting. I know not everyone is - of course, but how many "New Republicans" does it take calling me a commie before I start to think Republicans are mostly twats.

You have Karma arguing for the sake of arguing
"Or European moderates are to the left of American moderates." (what he said was exactly the same as what I said - however it was from the US perspective). It doesn't change anything. If he expects Europeans to state things from an American perspective in situations like that (or doesn't realise that the European perspective even exists and was in fact correcting me) then his....I cant think of the right phrase... not self-obsessesion... but "belief that the US perspective is the only existing view point and any other perspective is wrong" (if someone knows of a way to explain that neatly, feel free to let me know) is far worse than I ever thought. Either way - he's arguing for the sake of it (which puts me off him/republicans) or he has a strange "belief that the US per......" which also puts me off Republicans.

MVB is a reasonable Republican, and while I believe his views to be slightly askew - I respect them... If I didn't think his views were slightly askew - his views would be my views...and I would also be a Republican.

Edit: Just read your post MVB, which you made whilst writing this. The pro-choice thing is interesting. In the UK pro-choice is used by the right-wing. The ability to make your own choices without the state involving itself (the ability to smoke where you want or to hunt foxes with hounds...as an example of recent debates...however the left also talks about pro-choice by taking away rights (the choice of people to not have to be subjected to smoke in a public place - or the chance for foxes to have a chance to live (or other animals)... oh man. I could write for hours on this. In an ideal communist state, nobody has any rights at all, because no one needs any. It's the argument that I believe you have used before. "Why would you complain about the US government spying on you if you weren't do anything wrong". The argument against that (from the right wing) would be that people are entitled to privacy, and shouldn't have to prove that they have nothing to hide.

You know what - this has got me thinking. The traditional left wing/right wing ideals are out of whack nowadays.

What we need is a different way of measuring things. For example it is considered left wing to take away liberties for the good of the country - however it's being done by the right wing, and is now becoming associated with the right wing.
Now I cant think of how a new measurement system would work immediately, but I can certainly see that there would be a different scale to measure things by. Perhaps there already is - and I dont know about it - in which case someone please let me know.

If anyone knows what I mean - and wants to help to try and flesh out a new way to look at these things interact now let me know.

[JADezimar]

This type of attitude galvanises me to my views (which would be American left - or EU centre) because it shows me that someone right wing is unreasonable and insulting. I know not everyone is - of course, but how many "New Republicans" does it take calling me a commie before I start to think Republicans are mostly twats.

You have Karma arguing for the sake of arguing
"Or European moderates are to the left of American moderates." (what he said was exactly the same as what I said - however it was from the US perspective). It doesn't change anything. If he expects Europeans to state things from an American perspective in situations like that (or doesn't realise that the European perspective even exists and was in fact correcting me) then his....I cant think of the right phrase... not self-obsessesion... but "belief that the US perspective is the only existing view point and any other perspective is wrong" (if someone knows of a way to explain that neatly, feel free to let me know) is far worse than I ever thought. Either way - he's arguing for the sake of it (which puts me off him/republicans) or he has a strange "belief that the US per......" which also puts me off Republicans

That so could be completely reversed.

But yes Polarizing is becoming a problem. And Personally In most cases it starts with the lefties abuse. Saus. Here are examples. I had a friend named cassi, She was in wal-mart one day, And some lady was talking about politics and cassie was in line. Well the lady brought it up to her and asked who were you voting for, she said GWB and the lady said well..... You must not have any family in Iraq then. (Well of course this is deeply gonna upset her cuase her husband has been deployed there over 3 times and is going for a 4th time) Not to mention Military families usually vote republican, cuase despite the IRaqi war is most often times treated better. Kerry voted to go to war, then votes to cut spending for the much needed gear that the troopos needed.

jBut its comments like those and thats a mild incident that the left constantly has pushed and been rude to righties. More often then not a leftie gets rude. Calls someone ignorrant. I started getting touchy over the subject playing a game called shattered galaxy. When scubasteve would start defacing bush and righties in the free boards. Unprovoked. More people would join in on this. When a rightie would defend bush or the right wing. ScubaSTeve and his outspoken freinds would then in turn Be verbally aggressive calling us ignorrant and stupid. I mean half the time when a leftie has something to say. There making fun of bush's appearance, And his speech patterns neither of which affect his true intelligence. Ive had less attractive freinds or freinds with speech patterns and that upsets me.

Lefties are generally verbally abusive, and have been known to go as far as attacking property and in xtreme cases being violent. This has caused some righties (2 wrongs dont make a right ) react the same way. So if you want to start talking about fascisms, Maybe start with the origins of it. And where the anger comes from. Lefties in congress are constantly taking religion outta the government etc etc. And restricting there rights yet giving what they view as morally wrong more rights. The country was founded on Righties rights. Now they are trying to defile the ancestry of where the states coming from. (Im not saying we shouldnt move forward, but we shouldnt move backward either) Righties are generally Christian in origin, yes they dont have tolerance for gays, lesbians etc But they dont hate them either. They often times will try to get them to go to church etc and convert them, Cuase they Are taught to love. They dont get violent with them, Nor do they kill them. Thats another Thing that makes righties so defensive. YOu have all the lefties, in the big cities that are alwayz making remarks about there intelligence ya some rightie redneck today* those are commen remarks.

I myself am a perfect example. Angel has absolutely no tolerance for anything with the states and its people. So he is a hating bashing racist, Anyone should c why me an american would be upset. Suas youd feel the same way if someone just started bashing your country and everything to do with it.

(But everything is about perception. And Maybe A rightie feels he is a moderate just like you may be a leftie but feel your a moderate etc etc.)

[shutupandshave]

But yes Polarizing is becoming a problem. And Personally In most cases it starts with the lefties abuse.
That kind of statement is the reason for the divide.

Making fun of Bush because he doesn't know the name of the president of France IS a valid comment on his intelligence. Dont you think it is something that a US president should know?

I have seen more abusive and condescending tones from you and Karma than from myself and Angel on these boards... I admit that the both of us are rude too sometimes, but I dont think it is as often as you two are.

I think that Angel is too hard on the US sometimes, and you have not really be rude about the UK or Europe, however you have been very rude to me and Angel personally, and in international debate the things you say reflect the opinions of your country.

It is a KNOWN fact that people in cities (in actual fact it's places of international travel - so it used to be mostly sea ports, however now we have airports in cities) are more culturally aware. Not necessarily more intelligent (although it could be argued that the majority of intelligent people in a capitalist economy move to where the money is - but I am not going to debate whether the american urban population is more intelligent that the american rural population) but have a better understanding of the world.

I think you forget that European politics is not so aggressive as American politics...and just because a US democrat is abusive, it doesn't mean that the Euro "democrats" are like that. Maybe when someone right wing says something over there, the opposition jump all over them - and so when myself or angel disagree with you, you expect us to launch a personal attack and so you start acting like we have attacked you.

I tend to only start calling people names when I am frustrated... or when I am insulted. I tend to get frustrated because I feel that people are not listening, or are taking me out of context. I dont know who started the name calling between you and angel, but aggression breeds aggression, and you might want to go back and check why the fight erupted in the first place.

[Ummon]

I can tell you this, the Italian left is a nightmare of abusiveness, self-righteousness, patronizing, we-have-lost-but-we-are-the-only-legitimate-winners-and-anyway-you-suck-and-you-can-only-be-wrong attitude. The best opponents one can hope for.

[JADezimar]

have seen more abusive and condescending tones from you and Karma than from myself and Angel on these boards... I admit that the both of us are rude too sometimes, but I dont think it is as often as you two are.

I Dont remember pointing fingers at you in the lasts posts saus. #2 Angel Litterally posts stuff just cuase he hates us. He even admitted it. Go read the posts again suas. How do you expect me to react. #3. Anti War is a conservatists view. Wouldnt that make you a rightie even further right than the united states ? Maybe its not that the united states is too far right. Maybe its too far left for you ?

Suas you also argue with karma, just for the fact of arguing. You also dont respect our karmas opinions anymore than he respects yours.

[JADezimar]

It is a KNOWN fact that people in cities (in actual fact it's places of international travel - so it used to be mostly sea ports, however now we have airports in cities) are more culturally aware. Not necessarily more intelligent (although it could be argued that the majority of intelligent people in a capitalist economy move to where the money is - but I am not going to debate whether the american urban population is more intelligent that the american rural population) but have a better understanding of the world.

With the internet. The News. School education being just as prevalant as anywhere else. How can you say there not just as well informed. Aint it true that even california and New York were still very close in the popular vote o0.

I think that Angel is too hard on the US sometimes, and you have not really be rude about the UK or Europe, however you have been very rude to me and Angel personally, and in international debate the things you say reflect the opinions of your country.

I tend to only start calling people names when I am frustrated... or when I am insulted. I tend to get frustrated because I feel that people are not listening, or are taking me out of context. I dont know who started the name calling between you and angel, but aggression breeds aggression, and you might want to go back and check why the fight erupted in the first place.

Well there you have it. You have the right to get frustrated or insulted. And We dont ? I find Angels Admitted hatred of My nation and what we stand for, And The people of it and its views highly frustrating. Hes breeding the aggression and hatred. Ya im not helping by adding to the fuel. But I didnt originate it go re'read.

I think you forget that European politics is not so aggressive as American politics...and just because a US democrat is abusive, it doesn't mean that the Euro "democrats" are like that. Maybe when someone right wing says something over there, the opposition jump all over them - and so when myself or angel disagree with you, you expect us to launch a personal attack and so you start acting like we have attacked you.

Different Nations of the world. Are just as abusive when it comes to bush and the american people particuliarly the right. Some nations agree with what its doing. It dont matter what nation it is though The ones that disagree are still just as verbally abusive. Canadian politcal figure heads have went as far as saying that I hate that bastard bush. Well what kinda reflection is that for its people. You cant single the U.S out as the only nation that shows acts of intolerance when you Are indeed intolerant of me and Karma Despite what I or karma have done to you. And despite you Doing exactly what we do o0.

[Ummon]

I have to say Suas has become A LOT less aggressive and more tolerant lately, though.

[JADezimar]

I have too accept for...... Angel. I cant stand Pure hatred. I havnt personally attacked saus for awhile. I dont c why hes lashing out at me again.

[Karmashock]

I have seen more abusive and condescending tones from you and Karma than from myself and Angel on these boards... I admit that the both of us are rude too sometimes, but I dont think it is as often as you two are.
Think again… My manners are reactionary.

I think that Angel is too hard on the US sometimes, and you have not really be rude about the UK or Europe, however you have been very rude to me and Angel personally, and in international debate the things you say reflect the opinions of your country.
Didn’t you say “don’t confuse anti karma with anti America”… Well… Don’t confuse anti Suas with anti England… Furthermore, lots of internationals express hatred of Bush without expressing the same thing of the US.

Conclusion: you have no point… try again.

It is a KNOWN fact that people in cities (in actual fact it's places of international travel - so it used to be mostly sea ports, however now we have airports in cities) are more culturally aware.
Of what?… Of themselves… Not of their own country that’s for sure.


Not necessarily more intelligent (although it could be argued that the majority of intelligent people in a capitalist economy move to where the money is - but I am not going to debate whether the american urban population is more intelligent that the american rural population) but have a better understanding of the world.
Not really, the urban areas are just as ignorant as the rural areas. You just ignore the teaming masses of people in ghettos and focus on park avenue. If you look at the rural areas averaging out the whole population… the literacy rates are higher… and the income via purchasing power parity is just about the same. Cities are dense concentrations of people that are responsible for different services… that’s about it.

So don’t ignore the stupid in cities and don’t forget that while people in cities get paid more, that’s more because living in a city is more expensive then anything else.

For every investment banking per 1000 people in the city, I can produce a successful rancher or farmer in the country.

I think you forget that European politics is not so aggressive as American politics...and just because a US democrat is abusive, it doesn't mean that the Euro "democrats" are like that.
I think the German foreign minister compared Bush to Hitler… NO DEMOCRAT IN THEIR RIGHT MIND WOULD DO THAT! You’re at least as nasty as we are and likely quite a bit more because you’re not used to be stared at when you say ridiculous things.

I just don’t think you realize how completely ridiculous you sound to American ears. No doubt I sound ridiculous to British ears… but at least I’m not pretending that I’m the center of the fucking universe.


Maybe when someone right wing says something over there, the opposition jump all over them - and so when myself or angel disagree with you, you expect us to launch a personal attack and so you start acting like we have attacked you.
Dude… You do attack us… you attack us every single time… you’re doing a better job of it recently… but you attack at least as much as we do if not more.

I tend to only start calling people names when I am frustrated... or when I am insulted.
I do it when someone makes a dishonest argument (ie intentionally lies or distorts the conversation, which is an insult to my intelligence at the very least) or when someone insults me.

Deal honestly and respectfully with me and you won’t have any problems.

but aggression breeds aggression, and you might want to go back and check why the fight erupted in the first place.
We were doing very well until recently… we had about a day or so of civility.

[shutupandshave]

Karma, when I find a median of "individual income" you 1) told me it wasn't a median (when when you actually checked - you realised it was), you then 2) started telling me I was stupid and I need to take a course in economics before speaking to you. Ironic when you are the one taking a course in economics and I was right. I dont see how your aggression was in any way reactionary.
Karma, really - please stop talking to me. It's quite clear you cant be polite to me... Our views fundementally differ. You say I am wrong, I say perhaps you are wrong unless I have facts backing it up. You say that you never said the UK was a Republic, and if someone gives me a link to the old boards, I can prove you wrong. I am fed up of taking the time to point out facts to you because you're too dishonest to admit to your own mistakes.

Conclusion: you have no point… try again. You're just rude. Just because you dont understand my point, or you are unwilling to admit my point - you have to be rude. There have been occassions when EVERY SINGLE person posting on the politics board has said you were wrong. You still insisted you were right and everyone was stupid. You're renowned for not taking listening to reason.

For example...Dude… You do attack us… you attack us every single time… you’re doing a better job of it recently… but you attack at least as much as we do if not more.. The sheer fact you say I attack the US in every single one of my posts is not true. If I dont attack it in every post, dont say I do.

I dont want to have to point these things out all the time. I know how our arguments will go, and I feel I have gone a long way to understanding you. I dont feel you have made any attempt to understand Europe or me, unless by doing so you could get one over on someone.

Really, please please dont talk to me. I enjoy my time here except when I am speaking to you. No smug comments that are not true, or are just rude. No little quips about how shit Europe is.

You say you're only rude when someone lies or distorts an argument. In that "median" conversation - it was not me lying or distorting the conversation that caused you to start hurling the abuse. It was you making a mistake.

In the "how much do we earn" conversation, I never distorted anything or lied. You (halfway through the argument) started changing the goal posts (after you realised there WAS a median average in the US and it didn't support you) and said that we were all talking about something we weren't. Karma NO ONE other than you (and I suspect you were not at the time, but I will give you the benefit of the doubt) was talking about their salary in terms of "adjusted purchasing power parity" or whatever. NO one. You were incredibly abusive...whilst clearly wrong.

To sum it up, please dont speak to me. You've lied, and you've character assassinated me on things based on your mistakes.
There are arguments I dont get involved in because I dont know what I am talking about (or I will say, I dont know what I am talking about but this is what I think). There have been times when I have said something and been mistaken. I have admitted it as soon as I have realised and I dont drag it out over three pages making someone prove it to me.
Tell you what... if I can find 3 examples of you calling me names, or being rude first in a thread will you stop talking to me...as you implied you are only ever rude as a reaction to someone else being rude?

Of course when you said your manners were reactionary what you might have meant is "my bad manners are a reaction to being beaten in an argument", in which case I agree ;)... and yes that is rude of me to say, but honestly believe you'd claim you meant it, if I could prove that you often start the mud-slinging.

[Karmashock]

Karma, when I find a median of "individual income" you 1) told me it wasn't a median
This is a bald faced lie.
I said that the CIA's numbers weren't median.
You're pathetic.

It's quite clear you cant be polite to me
You're just rude.
you have to be rude.
Says the pot to the kettle.
I feel I have gone a long way to understanding you.
And I you. There are lots of people like you where I live... You're nothing unusual or special to me.


I dont feel you have made any attempt to understand Europe or me, unless by doing so you could get one over on someone.[/qjuote]
Not at all, so long as you're being honest and polite, I've been very civil with you. But when you lie or insult me I'll call you out.

It's really that simple.

[quote]Really, please please dont talk to me.
You're in as much control of that as I am... hell, you don't even belong to TLSC. You're coming here to this club where you aren't a member and telling people not to talk to you?... get a life.

I enjoy my time here except when I am speaking to you.
Only because I see right through your bullshit. I've had a life time of it being fed to me by people just like you and so I'm very good at dealing with it.



You say you're only rude when someone lies or distorts an argument. In that "median" conversation - it was not me lying or distorting the conversation that caused you to start hurling the abuse. It was you making a mistake.
Read it again... you'll find that every insult by me was inspired by an insult from you or a willful distortion on your part.

Karma NO ONE other than you (and I suspect you were not at the time, but I will give you the benefit of the doubt) was talking about their salary in terms of "adjusted purchasing power parity" or whatever. NO one. You were incredibly abusive...whilst clearly wrong.
YOU CAN"T COMPARE SALARIES BETWEEN TWO COUNTRIES WITHOUT USING PURCHASING POWER PARITY YOU FUCKING TWAT! It's like trying to talk about mileage without involving distance... it's fucking stupid. You even admitted in that thread that "your friend at the pub" set you right on that... so what is this? More of your dishonesty… Knock it off.

You've lied
No I didn't.

you've character assassinated me
You committed character suicide.



Everything else was so much drivel... If you don't want me to talk to you, then don't post here. I am a member of this community and by posting here you are asking for it's opinion.
==========================
Back on point, as you’re trying to cloud the discussion again with your bitter tripe.

Lets talk about how to seal the breach between the US and Europe. I suggested mutual acceptance… what do you propose? :)

Love, Karmashock.

[shutupandshave]

Please stop talking to me.

[Larsson7]

Actually Karma - suas is a former TLSC member ;)

Ok - It was a short lived membership but a membership nonetheless :lol:

[MVB]

Thou shalt not bring up that period in our history again, oh Pillar!

'Twas a tumultuous time indeed.

[Larsson7]

Thou shalt not bring up that period in our history again, oh Pillar!

'Twas a tumultuous time indeed.

OMFG!! You just made me burst out laughing in work and my boss wants to know what I am laughing for!

You just got me fired :mad:

[shutupandshave]

Yeah but you had more posts on your forums in those couple of months in the previous (and subsequent) few months.

Suas = fun

[MVB]

No, suas = spammer. Jesus, you're like fuckin' Justice.

[shutupandshave]

I only had about 300 posts, but I remember that there were a lot of posts generated in other parts of the forums.

[Karmashock]

Please stop talking to me.
Don't insult me or challenge anything I care about in a forum I post in then. 8)

[JADezimar]

If youve noticed. Its us righties yet again on the defensive of our beleifs, choices and ways. Yet its the Lefties yet again on the offensive. Usually when your in a defensive position you were forced there. So yet again the lefties are the aggressors and starting this whole shit of nonsense. Whos the fascists?

Us righties. Or euro lefties hmmmmmm

[shutupandshave]

*sighs*