Fish have feelings too...

[Karmashock]

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=519&u=/ap/20041116/ap_on_re_us/fish_empathy_3&printer=1


and trees write poems... I mean... how else would it get on the paper? :lol:

[shutupandshave]

It was proven a while ago that goldfish have retentive memories, contrary to popular belief.

There was also research done with Tomato plants, which measured their electrical activity. It was found to shoot up when the leaves were burnt... which could be intepreted as pain. What was REALLY interesting about the research, was that the same electrical activity occured if the researcher THOUGHT about burning the leaves.

[LardGibs]

My goldfish can tell the difference between me and my GF from across the room (big blob/small blob?). Personality wise it does remind me of a stupid dog. I have kept other smaller fish and they aren't like this, but it may be because their eyes are so small, I dunno.

I think it would be cool if it could swim around in the air of the room.

Shortly after arrival:
http://www.coe.neu.edu/~pswett/ben.jpg
and a year later
http://www.coe.neu.edu/~pswett/benito.jpg

[shutupandshave]

MVB - Karma seems to think it's ridiculous that Fish have feelings...
Perhaps you're experience would be useful here.

[JADezimar]

I think all things have feelings etc. Or they wouldnt run form something they thought was gonna kill them. And thats amazing saus.... Tomatoes can read ppls minds ?

[JADezimar]

Omg I am laughing my ass off after just reading my posts..... But thats basically the truth of the posts ?

[Ummon]

Dolphins are mammals...

[shutupandshave]

No shit sherlock

[Ummon]

Nope, watson...

[shutupandshave]

So, what does the fact that Dolphins are mammals have to do with ANYTHING in this thread?

[Ummon]

Maybe MVB being a dolphin trainer cannot tell us if fish have feelings?

[Critta]

In order to become a dolphin trainer I assume you have to have some training/study into marine biology etc - Thus he might have a decent idea on this one.

Dunno, MVB?

[shutupandshave]

MVB has said that he knows about all kinds of fish, and not just Dolphins - I think the whole MVB <& dolphins came about because of the pics of himself with them. In actual fact I think he has spent time learning about all kinds of different sea creatures.

Your single minded determination to try and discredit me astounds me sometimes... I've left you alone for the most part so far because last time I actually took time to read your posts, go through them and point out how much shit you actually talk you quit TLSC and I felt bad. Now if you want to start your shit again. Fine - we'll start - but make a new thread to do it in, or leave me the fuck alone - especially with the kind of lame shit that you've tried in this post.

[Ummon]

Suas, you're a bit touchy.

[MVB]

Suas is accurate in my background work. I have spent far more time working with a larger variety of sea creatures than I have working with dolphins.

Fish have feelings, memories, and are eminently trainable. "Feelings" is probably a bad word to use, BUT they react to pain, are capable of aggression and anger, are capable of "play" despite the fact that to do so seems outwardly ridiculous as a suggestion for a fish. Now, they are far from the smartest creatures in the sea, but they certainly have feelings and reactionary emotions.

On the other hand, PETA is full of absolute bonafide certified 100% morons. 99% of their organization, even the people with Marine Biology PhD's, are total fucking morons. They don't know shit about shit, when it comes to really KNOWING animals, and I wouldn't take a single thing they say seriously. I consider myself an ethical, intelligent and informed conservationist. PETA is full of uninformed, radical and oftentimes UNETHICAL environmentalists. Don't know the difference between a conservationist and an environmentalist, look it up.

Anyway, back to the issue at hand, the concept of fish not having feelings is stupid. They have a brain, and nerve endings, and they feel things. They can feel hot and cold, pain and pleasure, and they can actively react to these feelings and others. Their emotional development is significantly weaker than our own, so they don't have emotions in the way that we do, HOWEVER they do tell the difference between individual human beings (they don't view them all the same, even similar-shaped/sized ones), and they do find some people reinforcing and some people punishing (annoying kid who pounds on glass vs. calm adult who does water changes and feeds them).

I'm not sure really waht's being asked, and when I saw the headline of the article, I didn't even bother reading it. PETA is full of, I repeat, fucking morons. They don't even focus on the right animals to try and protect.

[MVB]

I'll add this

Fish are stupid as shit. I read some of the article, and it pissed me off. They have feelings, true. They have memories, true. They have extensive instinctive developments, true. They can be TRAINEd, true -- we trained a porcupine puffer fish (diodon hystrix) at dolphinquest to partially beach himself on SD for kids to pet, and to spit water on hand signal. They are, however, not smart, by any comparative chart, unless you're comparing fish to other fish, in which case some are indeed smarter than others.

The "smart" animals in the sea, besides mammals like dolphins, are ALL invertebrates. The top 2 are undoubdtedly squid and stomatopods. Squid, most people have heard of, are very smart, but they lack much intelligent development because most are extremely short-lived, averaging lives of 6 months to a year for most species.

Stomatopods, on the other hand, commonly and erronneously called "mantis shrimp," are perhaps the best developed animals on the planet. They have extensive memories, have THE best-developed eyes on Earth, have THE fastest point-to-point movement on Earth, are THE strongest animals per inch on Earth (a 6" mantis in the right species and circumstances can generate the force of a .22 caliber bullet in its strike), are the ONLY animal on Earth capable of wheeled LOCOMOTION, and have exceptionally complex feelings, emotions (yup) and interactive capabilities. They often will test their aquariums for weak points, and will ALWAYS break breakable aquariums at the weakest spot on the tank. They are capable of problem-solving and maze-learning, etc. etc.

Fish have feelings, basic emotions, can learn and have memory, but otherwise they're damned dumb. Some other creatures of the sea, however, are truly even more remarkable.

[JADezimar]

Wow thats insanely cool I want one fo those :p Stoma whatevers. where Can I find more about them and what they look like ?

[MVB]

Here are some photos of the commonly kept Peacock Mantis Shrimp, Odontodactylus scyllarus

I can tell you all about keeping them :-)

http://www.edge-of-reef.com/stomatopodi/STOodontactylusscyallarus2.jpg
http://www.blueboard.com/mantis/pics/full/ajones_odsc_full.jpg
http://www.mataking.com/pics/others/CRW_0660_RJ%20Mantis%20Shrimp%20(Peacock).jpg

another random fact about them is that they can see polarized, ultraviolet, infrared and other wavelengths of light ... can be a lot of fun to put on polarized glasses, b/c you'll see some of their appendages go all flashy, b/c some of their appendages actually emit polarized light of their own


oh, and they're not compatible with any tankmates; they are extremely vicious and aggressive animals, and will kill anything you put in with them; they also require caution when working in the tank, because they will attack your fingers, and are extremely capable of removing appendages

[JADezimar]

Crazy. So they can break there aquariums and how do they interract with eachother ?

Think there the next species to inhabit this planet after we leave ? :p

[MVB]

Heh, they don't die very easily; they're a meter species on reefs, b/c when tons of them start showing up and thriving, it's a sign of trouble -- they're the ones that take over the niches departed by more fragile animals on the reef; I added an EDIT about their interactions with tankmates; they can't break acrylic aquariums or thicker-walled aquariums, unless you get the larger species (some grow up to 1.5 meters long)

[JADezimar]

ouch..;... what makes em so mean? There like primitive Humans ..... Or teenagers :p i.e ppl like divinersage and his freind johnny apple seed :p

[Karmashock]

There was also research done with Tomato plants, which measured their electrical activity. It was found to shoot up when the leaves were burnt... which could be intepreted as pain. What was REALLY interesting about the research, was that the same electrical activity occured if the researcher THOUGHT about burning the leaves.
bullshit.
===================================
MVB - Karma seems to think it's ridiculous that Fish have feelings...
Perhaps you're experience would be useful here.
instincts?... sure... remember a few things?... why not... pain?... of course... consciousness?... no.
==================================
Guys... THEY"RE FISH... PETA IS FUCKING INSANE!

I refuse to feel bad about eating BABY COWS... so I'm sure as shit not going to feel bad about fish...

Fucking loonies... these guys are the left's equivalent of abortion clinic bombers. Sure most of the activists don’t bomb or hurt anyone… but damn near all of them are completely unreasonable and are infamous for having an unsetting glint in their eyes…


Anyway, join them if you want… tell us all about how trees have feelings too… I seriously didn’t expect anyone to do anything other than laugh at peta here… they’re such indefensible douchebags.
=================================
MVB,
That is perhaps the coolest marine animal I've ever heard about... very neat...

Love, karmashock.

[MVB]

Karma, you should read what I wrote about fish. I agree that PETA is totally fucking insane. However, Fish do have feelings and emotional responses to a degree, and to be ignorant for the sake of ignorance is stupid.

I eat almost exclusively seafood, so it doesn't deter me ... I simply avoid eating fish which we cannot aquaculture.

[JADezimar]

Ya im not gonna stop eating something do to this. But I do beleive they have feelings etc.

[Karmashock]

Karma, you should read what I wrote about fish. I agree that PETA is totally fucking insane. However, Fish do have feelings and emotional responses to a degree, and to be ignorant for the sake of ignorance is stupid.

I eat almost exclusively seafood, so it doesn't deter me ... I simply avoid eating fish which we cannot aquaculture.

not sure if you read all of my post...


instincts?... sure... remember a few things?... why not... pain?... of course... consciousness?... no.
instincts ARE emotions... I'm sure they get afraid and paniced... maybe they feel horny?... But those are all instincts...

I also wrote that BEFORE reading your post... I'm sure you know a lot... but to me, what little I wrote there is common knowledge.

[MVB]

There's an enormous difference between instinct and learned behavior. The ability to learn is instinctive in all of us, but WHAT we learn is not instinctive.

Fish LEARN, and can be trained to perform behaviors which they otherwise would never develop. This alone is a sign of a level of intelligence above that of animals which cannot truly learn.

[JADezimar]

-_-. Wha animals cant learn ? I disagree -_-. Even though I like dogs more. I know for a fact my cats have feelings too. And they know when things hurt you or hurt them. I have a cat that would rather fall on her ass and hurt herself rather than dig her claws into my skin cuase she knows it hurts me. She doesnt just care for herself she cares for me.

[Karmashock]

There's an enormous difference between instinct and learned behavior. The ability to learn is instinctive in all of us, but WHAT we learn is not instinctive.
I never said they don't learn... I sort of generally included that in memory...

I've seen them do some sort of complex things like navigate a maze... still pretty fucking stupid... it took them about 2 weeks to master a 'maze' that was only slightly more complex then a straight tube.

Don't create difference between us when there isn't any. We agree on all of this. All you have is greater specificity.

My answer was general.

Fish LEARN, and can be trained to perform behaviors which they otherwise would never develop. This alone is a sign of a level of intelligence above that of animals which cannot truly learn.
so... more intellegent then worms?... worms can learn too... yes they can.


I grant they have limited intellegence, but it doesn't strike me as special.

[/<yle]

dude.. a .22 cal bullet!? fking insane! i want one... gonna sick it on my friends... take that biznatches... look at him break that fucking glass tank and attack your ass... mauahahaha

--------------------------

fish are friends, AND food! I have no qualms about eating lesser species, including our green friends. If i were to become a vegitarian, it would be because A) the girl im interested in is one and is making me, or B) i decide i fking hate plants!

That being said, Fish are cool. PETA is lame (already knew that) and like most of the left, brainwashed to a point of lacking common sense.

[shutupandshave]

What you said Karma was this

and trees write poems... I mean... how else would it get on the paper?
You implied that it was as likely that fish had any "feelings" as it was that trees wrote poetry.

Perhaps the tomato story is bullshit. I read it in a "101 science facts" book when I was young. Along with such gems as explaining why ice-creams make you hotter instead of colder, and how many grooves an LP record has (2 of course - 1 on each side). I dont see why they'd make something like that up. They didn't say it proved anything, and it could have been a response from some kind of pheremone signal the doctors gave off when thinking about destroying something.

[Karmashock]

the tomato story is bullshit...

and the fish have instincts... fear... anger... lust...


but nothing complex... no saddness or love... no hatred...

What PETA is trying to do is humanize fish... which is asinine...


I feel nothing for fish... most people are like me... and that will not be changed by the pathetic machinations of PETA.


Support them if you will... it's time wasted. ;)

[shutupandshave]

I dont support them. I dont however think that the idea that fish feel things is akin to trees writing poetry.

[Karmashock]

it is in that it's another kooky left wing group trying to humanize something that isn't.

They've tried it with trees... they was a big march here about how trees have feelings... the music of the forest... the spirit of the trees.... they were literally trying to say that trees not only have feelings, but consciousness... like your tomato nonsense...

So in that... they are the same... via the organizations... and the argument style.


Further debate on this tangent is petty.

[LardGibs]

I feel nothing for fish... most people are like me... Karma, you are a rather odd fellow for simple discussions :|
what about those of us with fish for pets? not exactly a dangerously misguided minority...

you feel nothing when a fish is out of water, thrashing, gills flaring. no sympathy or misguided anthropomorphism for the distress it feels? just a tasty snack in the making.

I abso-fucking-lutely guarantee that most of the sedentary sheep in this society really don't have what it takes to kill the simplest of food animals, not to mention the effort required for the tastier ones :thumbup

[MVB]

But these guys had what it took
http://www.photolib.noaa.gov/fish/images/fish2011.jpg

mm, mm, tuna

I don't eat Tuna anymore, b/c we cannot aquaculture them effectively, and world populations of Tuna have dropped by 90% in the last 15 years, while average tuna weight has dropped by 200 pounds (which is enormously significant).

[shutupandshave]

To not be able to feel empathy with an animal in pain is a sign of psychopathy. You dont believe me... ask Ummon. He's the resident psychologist here.

Anybody that enjoys gardening as a serious hobby will tell you that their plants have feelings... and it's well documented that plants respond to conversation. The idea that a plant may react to some of our non-verbal signals is in no way absurd. really... you've never heard of gardeners saying how talking to plants/trees makes them healthier?

[MVB]

Suas, my experience is not limited to just fish and dolphins, and while it's a nice thought, plants do not have feelings. They lack any nervous system whatsoever, and so literally cannot feel. Don't get me wrong, I've got nothing against plants, and am a firm conservationist, but they just don't ... sorry, but you'd have to provide a hell of a source, from a hell of a non-biased scientific research project, for me to even considering it as scientific in any way, shape or form.

[LardGibs]

well, I think that photo is taken out of context.

Marlinespikes are really required to keep that tuna from thrashing about the deck and throwing those poor bastages into the ocean.

I don't think it's the pleasure of the kill that motivates them in that picture. :|

http://www.livingtravel.com/namerica/indiana/Indiana0052.JPG

[shutupandshave]

Maybe they do, maybe they dont. I cant say for sure. All I know is that you're telling me they dont, and people that spend a lot of time growing plants say they do. Plants dont have a nervous system but they DO react to stimuli.

[LardGibs]

They lack any nervous system whatsoever, and so literally cannot feel.
So it has to be an electrical impulse traveling down a meaty string of neurons to count? Plants have all sort of chemical messages traveling throughout them and among each other and the symbiotic bacteria and fungi in their ecosystems.

Just as evolutionary forces shaped the dog to serve man, selective pressure warps the behavior of plants to enhance their domestication and utility. Anything they have will be brought to bear.

[Karmashock]

I abso-fucking-lutely guarantee that most of the sedentary sheep in this society really don't have what it takes to kill the simplest of food animals, not to mention the effort required for the tastier ones :thumbup
I'm confused... are you saying sheep are people?... help me out here...

sheep aren't people... please... we've had one guy saying plants have feelings in this thread already... so my ability to detect sarcasm is shot.
======================================
see?... this shit just kills me...
To not be able to feel empathy with an animal in pain is a sign of psychopathy. You dont believe me... ask Ummon. He's the resident psychologist here.

Anybody that enjoys gardening as a serious hobby will tell you that their plants have feelings... and it's well documented that plants respond to conversation. The idea that a plant may react to some of our non-verbal signals is in no way absurd. really... you've never heard of gardeners saying how talking to plants/trees makes them healthier?
=====================================
well, I think that photo is taken out of context.

Marlinespikes are really required to keep that tuna from thrashing about the deck and throwing those poor bastages into the ocean.

I don't think it's the pleasure of the kill that motivates them in that picture. :|

http://www.livingtravel.com/namerica/indiana/Indiana0052.JPG
I would agree... if only because there is no time... you have to work quickly... so you don't waste it f'ing with the animals.
===================================
So it has to be an electrical impulse traveling down a meaty string of neurons to count? Plants have all sort of chemical messages traveling throughout them and among each other and the symbiotic bacteria and fungi in their ecosystems.

Just as evolutionary forces shaped the dog to serve man, selective pressure warps the behavior of plants to enhance their domestication and utility. Anything they have will be brought to bear.
What is the difference between this gaia crap and Christianity... or any other religion?...

you guys high hat religious people then turn right around and start talking about the feelings of trees...

you should all go chant around a stone circle and drink goat's blood... it's more fun... and there's usually ritualistic sex afterwards too... which is always good...

Loooooove and Peace, Karmashock.

[MVB]

Lard, I wasn't saying anything about the spikes in that photo, or their pleasure at using them or making the kill. Where did that come from?

[shutupandshave]

we've had one guy saying plants have feelings in this thread already
Where did I say that?

I high hat religion? What do you mean?

[MVB]

I think he's suggesting that you/others treat religious people as inferior or just ignorant for putting religion above other things like science/economy/whatever.

Lard -- chemical interactions and reactions are just that ... they are evolved environmental responses. They are NOT feelings, nor do they really feel "pain" in any way shape or form. A plan reacts to stimuli in the most basic of ways -- meaning it is ALIVE, which does not inherently mean it feels.

In relation to an earlier comment by Karma that I missed, you cannot train an earthworm to complex behaviors. You can train a fish to complex behaviors. Big difference in the realm of "learning," unless by simply BASICALLY referring to animals as learning in one big realm you put yourself on the same level as an earthworm because -- after all -- it can learn and so can you.

I hate this suas hates karma b/c suas thinks karma sucks at arguing and says stupid things, and karma hates suas because suas is condescending and karma is too "thing" just as much as I hated it when it was more directly between suas and I. It got old really fast, and to an outside observer it doesn't make either of you look better than the other.

[shutupandshave]

MVB - you also know that I hate your "as an impartial observer, I am right and everyone is wrong, and I know I've made some mistakes in my life, but I'm great and you're wrong" comments... and also the "pink is green because I proved it, and if you want to prove me wrong, post in this thread, if you say anything more about it however, then it goes to show that I automatically right... thread locked". Comments like those are the only times you and I fall out (recently at least).

Karma tells whoppas and is wrapped up in himself. Ummon is a truth twisting fascist, you're self-obsessed and ego-centric and I'm aggressive and holier than thou. Welcome to the forums.

In what way are human/animal responses not "chemical reaction"

[Karmashock]

you're just a nut...


Put some pants on and get a job.

[shutupandshave]

I have a job.
I'm at it (earning more than the US national average btw.

Why dont you spend a while in another country. France or China would be good, although personally I'd rather Iraq, where I suggest you walk round the streets of an Iraqi city at night shouting "I am a westerner with lots of money. Allah is less than a dog". If nothing happens that night, try again the next night.

[Karmashock]

I've probably been to more foreign countries then you have... I've been to every continent except for Antarctica.


And doing better than average is easy…


all of my friends, self included, were in 95 percentile or higher for all of our tests... we all were kind of wondering who would be dumb enough to get down into the 50th... but whatever... I have a shit college job right now… it’s part time so I don’t make a great deal… but if I do as well as most of my family then I should pull in about 80 thousand a year at least.

as to travel plans... Why don't you come to South Central LA and start yelling in your white boy english accent "Americans are wankers... Any nation in the world is better than you!"... I'll give you about 5 hours before someone beats the fucking shit out of you... do that when the sun goes down and you'll never be heard from again. ;)

Peace, Karmashock.

[shutupandshave]

I wouldn't say that Karma, because I dont believe it.

It's sad to think that you've been to more countries than me, and you still have so little idea what is happening around the world.

[JADezimar]

luck you -_-.

[Karmashock]

want to throw you meat on the table?... I've got a yard stick... :D

[LardGibs]

Lard, I wasn't saying anything about the spikes in that photo, or their pleasure at using them or making the kill. Where did that come from?context, old salts pillaging and you don't eat tuna, and context of the whole thread.

it's more interesting though that they and the industrial agriculture/husbandry have the proxy of people who open cans and pull plastic instead of slit throats and bone out roasts.

as far as gaia goes, meaning ecosystem consciousness: there's no magic in neurons as far as science has demonstrated to date that can't be done with other methods, it is basic computation and messaging. Poking somebody with a pin or moving a light, may be a different timescale but both achieve an autonomic response. therefore, a nervous system is not a basic requirement.

I'll get back to you when I figure out how to talk to bacteria with my DNA typewriter, I suspect they have a lot to say.

AND

ooo wow Karma is going to make a lot of money... so impressive. I made a lot of money once manufacturing chemicals, almost died 3 times, got burned out, and don't make shit for $$ now. I'm at least 60% happier and 450% less arrogant. which probably puts me in a higher percentile than my standardized tests ever did.

[Ummon]

We have now got started with the new trendy argument, "I make more money than you do". :lol:

Fascism is about one person/idea/group of people controlling the life of everyone else. This is exactly the opposite of what I believe. My grandgrandfather started the anarchist batch of our family. He was killed by fascists while holding a speech against the King before tens of thousands of workers. There's infact a way entitled to his name in the city where I live, because apparently he was an anti-fascist hero. If things had gone differently he might have been one of the ministers in the first cabinet of the People's Republic of Italy.

My mother's uncle was a partisan, and he spied on Nazis. He was tortured by Gestapo and his head was permanently deformed through the aforemetnioned torture.

My grandfather from my mother's side escaped conviction in a Nazi prison camp by running from a Gestapo HQ.

My grandfather from my father's side was sent to the Russian front by fascists because he splattered a plate of rice on a photo of Mussolini during his service in the Army in WWII.

Since 1920 there is no such thing as a member of my family who can be called "a fascist". We're are all anarchists generally, sometimes left-wing, sometimes right-wing.

About the lack of empathy towards animal suffering, it's not considered a sign of emotional stability. It's quite a complex subject, though, there are many variables.

[JADezimar]

I feel for the animals.... But ...... I aint gonna stop eating them. it would be unhealthy.

[shutupandshave]

About the lack of empathy towards animal suffering, it's not considered a sign of emotional stability. It's quite a complex subject, though, there are many variables.
I was under the impression (and perhaps I am wrong) that almost all psychopathic individuals tortured animals as children.

[MVB]

I don't think that's a fair generalization to say that almost all actually did, but I think I've also read that a presence of 0 empathy for animals, at least as children, cadn be a sign of serious emotional deficiencies. Nature vs. Nurture, however ... my friends and I used to hit fireflies with baseball bats at the age of 10 after baseball practice, to watch them light up when you hit them, we used to rip the wings off butterflies and all that kids' stuff, and I did stupid shit to things like goldfish when I was very little, with no remorse whatsoever. Yet, today, I'm an avid animal conversationist, breed tough-to-keep and even endangered species, and am very ethically motivated towards informing people about how to keep things alive, and I have about 2 physically aggressive bones in my body.

So ... I think partially you're right about the animal empathy vs. no empathy thing, and partially wrong (only in the sense that you really can't use it as a signpost).

[Ummon]

Well, actually, the term "all" in psychology/psychiatrics is always mistaken. Although you referred to "lack of empathy" not torture originally.

If someone sees an animal tortured for example, and he does not even for a moment feel the animal's suffering as if it were his own, experience disgust, etc. this is a sign of a malfunctioning in one of the basic processes which allow us to live in a community and reduce our tendency to violence, empathy.

More so in the case of human beings being tortured, etc. of course.

There are many reasons why this process of empathy might be malfunctioning.

1) The subject does not experience emotions, so he qualifies to be defined as a psychopath.

2) The subject has an adversion/hatred for that peculiar type of animal, long discussion should follow on the reasons why it is so.

3) The subject experiences an emotion, but this is removed from his conscious mind, in which case we have a neurotic and not a psychopath.

Etc...

[Karmashock]

wow Karma is going to make a lot of money... so impressive.
I have a job.
I'm at it (earning more than the US national average btw.
================================================
I don't think that's a fair generalization to say that almost all actually did, but I think I've also read that a presence of 0 empathy for animals, at least as children, cadn be a sign of serious emotional deficiencies. Nature vs. Nurture, however ... my friends and I used to hit fireflies with baseball bats at the age of 10 after baseball practice, to watch them light up when you hit them, we used to rip the wings off butterflies and all that kids' stuff, and I did stupid shit to things like goldfish when I was very little, with no remorse whatsoever.
When I was a child, I used to feel sorry for pieces of trash that I threw away... I worried about the paper cup... where it would go... would it be lonely... would it be afraid... I told the trash to be strong and not be frightened... I imagined it joining its friends and being comforted by old newspapers... such a dork...


My empathy worked on fucking overdrive when I was a kid... I felt for EVERYTHING... I thanked the sky when it was pretty... I was gentle to little insects... I said nice things to pieces of paper that I threw away... Every animal was a world of wonder and joy... I wouldn't hurt a fly...

Once my balls dropped that nonsense ended.

If that never happened, I might support PETA. :\

[/<yle]

you were a fucking pussy as a kid. I liked destroying stuff as a kid... i was godzilla, i made lego citys then SMASHED them. it was gravy (actually, my brothers made them, i destroyed them).

[Karmashock]

yeah... pretty much... sunny, happy, blissful little kid... almost never got angery, pissy, or otherwise upset...

[Justice]

Who here is a vegetarian who believes firmly in animal rights?

cheers, and
-=</|awesomeparty|\>=-

[/<yle]

If i were a vegitarian, it would be because i fukin hate plants, not that i want to save the animals. As it is, im an omnivore and hate everything i can sink my teeth into

[MVB]

I believe firmly in animal rights within reason. I am not a vegetarian, because IMO vegetarians are intentionally avoiding an appropriate diet for idiotic reasons, and I wouldn't want to think of myself as idiotic. Of course, this is just my opinion on vegetarians and they have the right to their own way of life as long as it is not hurting other people unnecessarily.

Animals should have a set of rights, and I firmly believe in protecting them. The question, Justice, should not be who firmly believes in Animal rights, but what rights people believe animals should have.

[Justice]

The question, Justice, should not be who firmly believes in Animal rights, but what rights people believe animals should have.

I just have a real problem with people walking around with signs saying, "Stop Killing Helpless Pigs" and chanting about how eating meat is a crime. I can't tolerate their hypocritical nonsense.

Animals should have rights ... i.e., don't torture them, don't mistreat them. But making a big deal of killing an animal for meat? Come on. Have you ever been to the savanna in Africa? DO YOU KNOW WHAT FUCKING GOES ON THERE?

Lions eat zebras. Hyenas eat wilderbeast. Panthers eat antelope. Cheetahs eat gazelles. It's nature. It's life. Get over it.

cheers, and
-=</|awesomeparty|\>=-

[Karmashock]

I'm happy to protect them so long as said protections don't interfer with the price or quality of products produced from them... food included, or the progress of science.

So long as neither of those is harmed, go for it.

free all teh circus animals...

[DivinerSage]

Ok that Mantis shrimp looks crazy after all that I heard about it the picture of it was still crazier.

MVB what does it use to attack? Claws/pincers? Mouth? Hooks? some piercing appendage?

Whats their life span? Where are they mainly indigenous to? How deep of levels do they normally reside?

AND If you got mixed up with a big one could it crack your cranium if it wanted? And after it did this would it eat you or does it just fight anything it meets?

[LardGibs]

Have you ever been to the savanna in Africa? DO YOU KNOW WHAT FUCKING GOES ON THERE?
Once again Justice shows he is an oligopolist of ignorance....

Have you ever been to a factory farm in America? DO YOU KNOW WHAT FUCKING GOES ON THERE?

Doesn't look like idyllic nature to meh...

http://www.goveg.com/page/general/l2-broilerhouse.jpg
http://www.goveg.com/page/general/l2-pigfarm.jpg
http://www.goveg.com/page/general/l2-dairyfarm.jpg

so beautiful... so primal... so tasty...

[Ummon]

Lard, sure, but humanity's needs take precedence. Of course we could discuss this for hours, but it's a pointless discussion. Humanity's needs take precedence anyway. And we're talking about animals, while there are actually people suffering in the world. I think it's a matter of wrong priorities, too.

[MVB]

Justice you're a fucking moron. Lions don't breed zebras in large amounts, then slaughter them all, leaving the majority of their parts uneaten. I'm not a vegetarian, and I've made that clear, but there's an enormous difference between the untouched wilds of Africa and the animal farms of America. So, shut the fuck up, until you get a fucking clue about anything, you ignorant 15-year old.

I "KNOW WHAT FUCKING GOES ON THERE" better than you, by a long shot, as this is the kind of stuff I spend my free time learning and reading about, and whenever possible working with hands on. You probably haven't got a clue, and you proved it a little right there.

Diviner, a mantis would be unlikely to eat you, however even a small mantis would attack you to defend its burrow ... they are absolutely fearless. They use raptorial appendages, which are modified front legs in the form of either spears, in the case of the group of stomatopods called "spearers," or heavily calcified clubs, in the case of the group of stomatopods called "smashers."

Their life span varies on species, with some living 3-6 years, and some living up to and including 50 years. The average stomatopod will live a life longer than 10-15 years.

The group is circumtropical, and normally resides on reefs. There are a few subtropical species, but they are more elusive and definitely off the beaten path of the "norm." They superficially resemble lobsters and shrimp, but split off from the same evolutionary path those creatures took more than 200 million years ago, and so are in a branch of the Crustacea and Arthropoda that is entirely their own.

They are reef dwellers, and usually the tropical species are not found at overly exceptional depths. Their depth depends largely on the depth of the reef.

[LardGibs]

Well, agreed on the pointlessness Ummon, but hell that's what we're here at tlsconline.com for. The situation is a consequence both of the free market, and of consumer ignorance.

Humans* don't need that much meat, to be forced to produce it like that. Nor dairy products. Many feel that soybeans are inferior, as well as cereals, and they could be right, but meat production dissipates at least 90 percent of the food value of a feed substance as well as producing waste. Brilliant innovations like feeding animals slaughtering wastes, newspaper, antibiotics, and feces are succeeding in the marketplace. It is surely a bright future, I'll place an order for some conagra stock.

In the dystopian future where the nation falls under my decree, I would require two weeks civil service of all teenage adults in various manufacturing industries, so they could be more educated consumers before they drench everything with Lysol and stock up on chicken nuggets.

Meateating is a brilliant tradition, but it should be practiced with respect and KNOWLEDGE of the process. Quod erat Jessica Simpson and her chicken of the sea/buffalo wings.


-edit-
Oh, and Juiceyp00, what's going on the savannah lately is enlightened African bon vivants eating bush meat (Monkey Hands) and brewing up the next AIDS!
sorry but you earned it:
:urstupid: :agree:





*Americans :D

[Ummon]

The zootecnic field is generally inefficient and wasteful, true. But here in Italy for example, agriculture in some places is an art. Same goes for many European countries, and even some areas of California and Australia. There are types of food which are produced with knowledge accumulated in centuries and millennia, and are both healthy and very tasty, but foremost unique. There are forms of agriculture which try to avoid pesticides, use every part of cattle to obtain high quality foods, etc.

If you eat an animal, it's bound to suffer, because you have to kill it first. Going for maximum efficiency and good controls on the process is essential, but one cannot make the suffering of animals an essential point for the evolution of society. It's not so, IMHO.

[MVB]

Ummon, funny as it may sound, humanity's needs do not take precedence in 90% of the cases. There are an enormous number of situations where we are acting towards our "immediate" needs, but dangerously threatening our future well-being in the process.

Wise conservationism is essential for the future success of our species and of this planet. 90% of the world does, including most of the US, does not practice wise conservationism.

[Karmashock]

Actually our high protein diet is one of the things that makes us so much more healthy then most countries... at least when it comes to infection or disease.

Beyond that, when it comes to animals... well... their interests are distant secondary to our own. So if being nice to them doesn't interfer, then fine... if it does... then I can't help.

[Ummon]

Well no, actually high protein diet is quite unhealthy: the best lifestyle is made of balanced diet, which should be just a little under the daily caloric needs, and lots of physical and mental activity.

[Karmashock]

read again... for your immune system...

[JADezimar]

In the dystopian future where the nation falls under my decree, I would require two weeks civil service of all teenage adults in various manufacturing industries, so they could be more educated consumers before they drench everything with Lysol and stock up on chicken nuggets

Uh Gabs if I did that I would never eat meat again. Just about every person that works at a meat factory either A. Dont eat meat or B. cook with gloves on etc. o0

I think Forcing ppl to work there is a horrible idea I got an idea of what goes on there but, Doing it and knowing about it is 2 different things. Why shit if most people even knew what went on in restaurants and fastfood they wouldnt eat at those places ever again o0. If people knew of half of what was in all there food whos dirty nuts touched there milkshake etc. :P Its gross. And I dont have the greatest stomach. Why hell once I got sal manillia or however you spell it from "Sub-Way I havnt eaten at subway for 4 years. I probalby could now since its been awhile but if stuff like that makes me sick just think If I worked at meat factory no way jose. I dont think people have to do something hands on to really know how things are.

But gemini most people defending animals and think its wrong for them to be consumed. Dont even think about the factory aspect of it. They just think its wrong to kill them period. So yes the africa thing is relevant to the subject of most morons that are vegetarians. Half those animals in the factories may have shitty lives. And be cared quite cruely o0 but they wouldnt exist at all..... If we didnt breed them and feed them. o0. Personally id rather have a CoW from a Ranch, than a factory they do taste better o0. I find CoW's from where I come are alot more expensive than normal factory meat cow at the super market. How much is it worth to your pocketbook to give them a very humain life ?

[MVB]

If we place the needs of ocean plankton as "a distant secondary to our own" to the point where there is a mass die-off, the resultant millions of years of rebalancing evolution would destroy our species and a large portion of the life on this planet.

Global warming is not a major concern; destruction of keynote aquatic species IS a huge concern, and one which is happening at a near unbelieveable rate. Even the destruction of worldwide tuna populations can have IMMEASURABLE side effects on the average person, as such massive fish feed on enormous quantities of smaller fish, and so on and so forth.

[JADezimar]

Yup I am against the elimination of entire species and when....... We dont help provide to the population were killing off that can be bad o0.

forgive me for calling you gemini I meant mvb =( really sorry about that.

[LardGibs]

Global warming is not a major concern;it is if it shuts off the Gulf Stream :|

republican00b.... :P

[Ummon]

Nope Karma: you don't need a protein-RICH diet to improve your immune system. You need to keep a slightly positive N2 (nitrogen) balance, but not a protein-rich diet. If you go for a prolonged protein-poor diet, then THAT affects the immune system negatively, because Acute Phase Proteins and Antibodies are all proteic compounds, for example, and hence require amino-acids to be synthsized, amino-acids which come from the proteins introduced through the diet.

Protein-rich diet = unhealthy.

[Karmashock]

it is if it shuts off the Gulf Stream :|

republican00b.... :P
you mean like in the day after tomorrow?...

you know the story that was partially written by Art Bell?
http://www.coasttocoastam.com/
=================================
I don't know a great deal about diets etc... so I'll have to trust to your likely superior knowledge on the topic.

this was sort of interesting though...
http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/protein.html

[Ummon]

The Bottom Line: Recommendations for Protein Intake:

Get a good mix of proteins...
Pay attention to the protein package...
Balance carbohydrates and protein...
Eat soy in moderation...

These are all good points.

There's a recent study I see quoted there on hyperproteic diets. They also quote the influence of high protein intake on the onset of diabetes, both Type 1 and 2.

Overall, serious article.

[Karmashock]

Indeed... I read the whole thing... and I looked it up because I realized I wasn't very well informed on the subject... ;)

[JADezimar]

What do you think of the supplement pill N02 Ummon I used it for awhile in weight lifting and it does fricken wonders. Its like Roids but approved by the general public :p

[Ummon]

I am not sure, you're saying NO2?

I can see why NO (without the 2) might have that effect (it's a known local transmitter signaling for dilation of capillaries) although I know no way to locally deliver it, but I have no clue about the NO2 thing.

More specifically, is NO2 the name of the pill or the chemical formula of the content? If not the latter, tell me what's the content, and I'll give you my opinion (drug names are a lot different in different countries, the important thing is the chemical compound).

[JADezimar]

I believ it is both. And yes it widens the arteries You look like your on roids. But I got the book Ill have to find it. Does this differently from how roids do it. It actually is suppose to be an altering of yourself rather than roids when you quite you quite. i think it stands for nitrus oxide. And I cant remember how they explained they delivered it. They claim that every other system out there that pretends to be like N02 is fake cuase ....... They have a patent with the U.S government. I think they used the way to deliver it with some research of diabates or something or another.

I was just wondering if you knew much about it. Cuase You seem to know nutrion quite well.

[Ummon]

Then it maybe works by releasing NO, and therefore increasing the blood flow to your muscles. Steroids are hormones, they work in an entirely different way and have side-effects. I'd have to check that out physically (eg. watch the pill case and read the description), but the most important thing is that it is approved by the Food and Drug Administration: if it is so, then it's safe. Personally, I doubt it's dangerous, and I think it might be efficacious. If you want further info, I'll be happy to check it out, although that's not my specialization field so I am not sure about it as I would be if I was talking about a psychotrope.

[JADezimar]

I think everything you just stated I remember reading. It does increase blood flow. And now that I remember this it also not proven is assumed to increase nutrient intake. Your Cells or whatever only carry so much at a time and your body will only absorb so much at a time. But its beleived that this No2 Increases this. Along with the blood flow increasing oxygen and intake of nutrients to your muscles. Giving you naturally stronger lifts, allowing you to increase your lifting strength. As increasing your strength is directly related to your max push load. The more You push at once the more you increase the possibility of pushing more.... Your muscles have a memory and a limit which will increase. N02 is suppose to increase this load. Some things like this I havnt hit the gym for awhile but If i went and hit the gym id look like I was on roids after 2 weeks even if I didnt start no2 up again. I think this is also partly do to an adrenaline rush. Ive alwayz had large blood veins whilst lifting, playing sports, or severe anger. And have performed some high feets when Ive noticed this condition. Its amazing what a surge of blood will do. (and adrenaline) But the no2 has even furthered it. Its been studied that nitrus oxide is a very healthy element of the body. It is what is used in rogain. to grow hair. Helps xplosive strength. And has something else to do with the heart, when rogain was discovered they were researching a heart disease of some sort medical fix. nitrus oxide If i am naming the element right is naturally in the body, And your body Creates it at times of exercise etc. So no2 increases the amount you take in. Alot of women that were married to the men that started taking it, started using it whether they started lifting or not. Thats what I remember reading.

[LardGibs]

hmm let's tighten things up here:


NO: nitric oxide, bonerizer/vasoconstrictor. previously thought toxic but the magic behind viagra.
NO2: nitrogen dioxide, commonly obtained as a byproduct of air-fed combustion
N2O: nitrous oxide, whipped cream propellant and CNS depressant.

Nitrous oxide is an anesthetic gas and not particularly healthy nor natural, generated by the thermal decomposition of ammonium nitrate or as an industrial byproduct in the nitric acid oxidation of caprolactam.

Nitric oxide/nitrogen dioxide are more ubiquitious as a criteria air pollutant and a component of NOx.

What I find interesting about the whole debate, is that eating sausages with sodium nitrite preservative now has a direct causal relationship with powerful erectile response. :D

[JADezimar]

Zzzz No wonder im having problems I stopped eating salt 2 weeks ago :p

And it must be nitrogen dioxide... let me go check the bottle hmmm its called NO2 and it says its nitric oxide. And yes they mentioned it being an ingredient to viagra. I sometimes was frustrated at the gym cuase it didnt take much to get a rise.... if you know what i meant. I also just naturally felt meatier too.

[Ummon]

NO is a vasodilating agent Lard.

I had some doubt about that product as nitrates are used in the treatment of angina pectoris, but I couldn't believe they were using the same principle as an anabolyzing product. I did some online research: the NO increase is systemic? I still haven't got what's the molecule they're using though.

My suggestion is now: do not assume that product. They're making quite a confusion and this is not a good sign.

Also, isn't sildenaphyl based on c-UMP amplification? If it were based on NO, it wouldn't produce erection, just the opposite.

[JADezimar]

Well its got the same stuff in it as Viagra that would explain it no ?

[Ummon]

Ok it's final, I found the page of the product you're talking about. It has nothing to do with viagra.

It's innocuous, and probably has no effect.

It's just a supplement of L-argynine, which is used to form NO in the endothelium of capillaries, by 3 subtypes of the same enzyme NOS-1,2 and 3(these things they do not tell you of course). A long story short, it's nothing special, and probably doesn't have any significant effect.

For a moment I feared it was much worse.

[JADezimar]

o0

[LardGibs]

sorry bout the 'dialator mixup, I'm more versed on the nomenclature than the use... so it would be an anti-bonerizer? :D no, it would turn on the flow to pump things up...

However what I think JAD should take out of this is what any rational adult reading a dietary supplement label should. The hucksters who make this unregulated shit have the weakest command of nutrition and medicine out there, and really are just trying to make a 'scientific sounding' label. Because it's herbal or nutritional, it is largely unregulated as to claims and efficacy.

Protein powder and simple products like creatine are one thing, but ECA stacks and other mumbo jumbo are simply that.





The Building Blocks of Erection: Nitric Oxide . . . and More Nitric Oxide A team of Hopkins scientists has greatly advanced the science of penile erection, showing for the first time the mechanism for continued production of nitric oxide that maintains an erection over time. The findings are published in the March 19 issue of the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.

"The physiology of erection is like driving a car," says Arthur Burnett, M.D., associate professor of urology at Hopkins and senior author of the study. "You can't just turn the key and expect to go anywhere. You also need to hit and hold the accelerator."

Researchers at Hopkins ten years ago discovered that release of nitric oxide from nerve endings in the penis caused erection, but the temporary release of nitric oxide – a neurotransmitter that survives just a few seconds before breaking down – couldn't explain how erections are naturally sustained over time.

Working with rats and genetically transformed mice, Hopkins scientists found that after an initial burst of nitric oxide from nerve endings triggers erection, blood vessels release more nitric oxide to harden and maintain the erection.

"Once blood starts flowing into the penis, the source of nitric oxide in the blood vessels is continuously activated so that more nitric oxide is released, more tissue relaxes, more blood comes in and a sustained erection is achieved," Burnett says.

This cascade of events, Burnett says, begins when erotic thoughts or physical sensations produce nitric oxide release in nerve endings in the penis. Nitric oxide is a relaxant that allows blood vessels to open up or dilate, bringing increased blood flow and swelling of tissues. The flow of blood also creates a minor stress on the blood vessel wall which activates the release of more nitric oxide. This time it is from cells in the wall of the blood vessel – the endothelial cells – rather than from nerves. Endothelial nitric oxide causes more tissue to relax and the process repeats until the penis is fully erect.


A key element in the attainment of erection is the continuous activation of the source of nitric oxide in blood vessel walls, according to Burnett. Finding this source, a special form of the enzyme called endothelial nitric oxide synthase (eNOS), plus the discovery that the pressure of flowing blood against a vessel wall could induce it to produce nitric oxide, were critical pieces of the puzzle. These discoveries offer a fuller picture of the complex physiology of erection.

In addition to its application towards new and improved therapies for erectile dysfunction, Burnett says, this understanding of nitric oxide's effect can be extended to other areas of the body that are more difficult to observe, such as the heart and other internal organs
Mechanisms of NO Action

The signaling functions of NO begin with its binding to protein receptors on or in the cell. The binding sites can be either:

a metal ion in the protein or
one of its S atoms (e.g., on cysteine (http://users.rcn.com/jkimball.ma.ultranet/BiologyPages/C/Cys_met.gif).
In either case, binding triggers an allosteric change (http://users.rcn.com/jkimball.ma.ultranet/BiologyPages/A/A.html#allosteric) in the protein which, in turn, triggers the formation of a "second messenger" within the cell. The most common protein target for NO seems to be guanylyl cyclase, the enzyme that generates the second messenger cyclic GMP (http://users.rcn.com/jkimball.ma.ultranet/BiologyPages/S/Second_messengers.html#CyclicNucleotides) (cGMP).


Three prescription drugs

sildenafil (Viagra®)
vardenafil (Levitra®)
tadalafil (Cialis®)
enhance the effects of NO by inhibiting the enzyme that normally breaks down cGMP.

[Ummon]

I have to confess, my Urology exam is in a galaxy far far away (7 years now)... :howdy:

Although I can clearly see the page I studied in my mind, and I remember the mechanism described was different from this one. I'll check out my books to see if I can find that page again!

EDIT: Oh yes, I just read that in the last line of your quote, but that's exactly what I said. I think the mid-term molecule in the cavernous body's endothelium (more precisely smooth muscle cells) is c-UMP, or maybe that was just a typing mistake in the book or false memory by me, who knows. Although I remember cyclic GMP is the messenger in the coronaric endothelium, infact the mechanism above is a perfect description of how nitro-derivates work (these increase NO release and cause vaso-dilation). Anyway, these molecules (sildenaphil etc.) do not act on NO directly, because if they did, the effect would be systemic, and not organ-specific.

It's just a matter of where you're aiming at, not a problem of mechanism. The overall cascade which is stimulated is that originated by NO, but the drug acts specifically on the cyclase's product lifespan. If you had a molecule which acts directly on NO release, it would cause general dilation in the microcirculation (I hope the translation is correct), which means, blood flow redistribution, less blood pressure to fill the cavernous bodies, less volume to strain the "Tonaca Albuginea" and therefore less closed venulae in the cavernous body envelope, ----> no erection, or less likely erection.

Therefore, that NO2 product has nothing to do with viagra, one is supposed to increase the release of NO generally, the other inhibits the lysis of cyclic Guanylate or, as I think, cyclic Urydilate locally.

Futhermore, NO as a neurotransmitter promotes erection IN THE PENIS, but this is not it's general effect. The general effect of NO is vasodilation, erection depends on the peculiar mechanics in place in the penis after vasodilation takes place.

Finally, where were we?

[shutupandshave]

where are you?
About 15 ft above me right now.

[JADezimar]

Damn straight Saus Maybe even taller.

[MVB]

This discussion about NO has been wonderful for me to read. I deal more with NO2 and NO3, as well as NH3/4+ in my own line of work, but it's still all within the potential realm of protenacious waste compounds. I <3 some of the smart folks here.