Thoughts on the Presidency?

[Justice]

Just found something interesting here (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=519&ncid=519&e=2&u=/ap/20041114/ap_on_re_us/schwarzenegger_president)


What's your opinion? Should foreigners be allowed to take the Presidency? I personally think it's not right. For security concerns as well as the motives of the Framers to provide Americans with an American president, I think the system is fine the way it is.

Oh, and :arnoldsay

[Polaris]

how ironic that you put ahnold up there, who, may i remind you, is austrian by birth

[edit]
and i just now clicked the link...
[puts foot in mouth]

[JADezimar]

Theres a difference between an outright Alien or foreigner and Someone Born elsewhere :P

[Karmashock]

I say this as someone who voted for his rise to the governorship of my state... no.

Foreigners are banned from the seat for a reason... They don't have the same connection to the country... they never will have it... Their children born into this land can take it as easily as one that has come from a family that has lived here for hundreds of years... That's good enough...

you have to be 100 percent American to take that seat... and Arnold can never be more then 99 percent.

[JADezimar]

Arnold has been better than any pasts governor -_-. And hes an american at heart.

[Karmashock]

whatever... I'm not changing a seal like that just for one man.

he's the exception that proves the rule.

[JADezimar]

ya i could agree on that. i wouldnt trusts most foreigners o0.

[Karmashock]

I seriously wouldn't even vote for him if he were allowed to go through... I'm not having a president with an Austrian accent... seriously... this is a dumb move... anyone that is backing this is A) wasting their money and B) making themselves look silly.

[MVB]

In my opinion it should be case by case, even though that sounds funny.

Arnold understands what America is really about better than 99.9% of the Americans in this country. He came here with basically nothing, and made a real, successful life for himself. It was not a case of a guy who got the bonuses of America without earning it, but quite the opposite. Now, I voted for Bush, so I don't mean to insult him, but he was BORN American to an American family that was immensely successful ... he has no real understanding of what makes America so great -- the fact that you have the opportunity regardless of race or ethnic nationality to go from nothing and become something. In my opinion Arnold understands every American in this country better than most people in the world; he's got money, so he understands the wealthy; he came from nothing, so he understands the poor; he's a full American citizen and governor of an American state, so he understands the American people, and he's an immigrant by birth, so he understands where immigrants to the US are coming from. His policies may or may not be the best, but I doubt there are many men in this country, and there are NONE who were native-born who can possibly understand this nation's people as well as he can.

That being said, this isn't necessarily true for everyone, but Arnold is as much an American citizen as anyone else. I don't give a damn where you were born; this is not a Royal Family, that you must be American by blood to be an American. This is a nation of immigrants, founded by immigrants and run by them. The fact that he's a first generation immigrant is a ridiculous meter for qualification. A man should be judged by what he is, who he is, and what he does, not by his blood or place or status of birth. Isn't that a founding principle of this great nation?

[shutupandshave]

Great post MVB, I completely agree.

ya i could agree on that. i wouldnt trusts most foreigners o0.
Christ - nothing like a bit of xenophobia to make you popular eh?

[Karmashock]

In my opinion it should be case by case, even though that sounds funny.
inpractical to enforce... I'd rather this law be too strong then too weak.

It's unacceptable to have someone in office that doesn't put America first... first before all. I wouldn't trust anyone but an american to do that.

A man should be judged by what he is, who he is, and what he does, not by his blood or place or status of birth. Isn't that a founding principle of this great nation?
The president is requires a higher bar... you can be senator... one of a hundred if you weren't born in this country...

Let it rest... you don't want to open this door... because once opened, you won't be able to close it.

Choices like this will effect things long after we are dead, Karmashock.

[Justice]

That being said, this isn't necessarily true for everyone, but Arnold is as much an American citizen as anyone else. I don't give a damn where you were born; this is not a Royal Family, that you must be American by blood to be an American. This is a nation of immigrants, founded by immigrants and run by them. The fact that he's a first generation immigrant is a ridiculous meter for qualification. A man should be judged by what he is, who he is, and what he does, not by his blood or place or status of birth. Isn't that a founding principle of this great nation?

It may be a good thing to hope for, but nobody's ever going to get the 2/3 majority to get an amendment to the constitution to change it.

cheers, and
-=</|awesomeparty|\>=-

[/<yle]

I wouldent vote for arnold for president. Arnolds a great man, i shook his hand, and my uncle meets with him semi-regularly (hes an employee of the state). However... he is the exception to the rule. I want an american running america. But Go ARNOLD! hes up for re-election in 2 years right? im voting for him again.

[JADezimar]

Yep you get some retard like shave in The election and hell be too busy doing what the rest of the world wants not what american and americans want.

[tom]

Yep you get some retard like shave in The election and hell be too busy doing what the rest of the world wants not what american and americans want.

Or Kerry. ;)

[Karmashock]

Yeah, I'd totally vote for him again... he's the best governor we've had in a long time... :)

[MVB]

See, the thing is ... most Americans DON'T put America first, yet Arnold I believe truly does. It's not at all impractical to enforce a Presidential candidate being on a case by case basis, because it is rare and a very limited field. It WOULD be impractical to enforce it if it were for every legislator of every state or something on a case by case.

For one office, run for only once every 4 years? No problemo.

As for the individual, you're a fool if you trust only an American to look out for America first. Kerry, for instance, did not have America first in his mind. On the other hand, some think Bush has TOO much America first, although I personally don't believe this and did vote for him. Face it, Karma, the Presidential election is ALREADY judged on a case by case basis as far as candidates go, both in the Primaries and in the election itself. Opening it up conditionally to long-time US Citizens regardless of original nationality only gives us at least the option of having PHENOMENAL candidates from an even wider selection. Anyone in their right mind knows that Arnold doesn't give a damn about Austria, relative to the United States, and would never betray America. Think about foreign policy, however ... I think Germany (which lately hasn't exactly been pro-America) would be MUCH more agreeable with an Austrian native who speaks their language fluently. Plus, Arnold has bipartisan appeal, and is definitely moderate (heck, he even supports stem cell research), and even has a staunch democrat for a wife.

I just think that by having a total refusal regading the law, you've got people *like* Arnold who are ruled out of running, when maybe that shouldn't be the case. Besides, it's not like some half-US mongrel who'd barely been here long at all would ever even have a snail's breath of a chance.

[tom]

I know my grandmother didn't vote for Kerry because she didn't want any "damn foreigner" as a first lady.

[|AiTd|-Shepherd]

Just to put my 2 cents worth in the conversation, I think Arnold would make for a great president because from EVERYTHING I see and hear from him, it seems he really cares about America and i dont think he would try to fuck us up for any reason. :)

[Karmashock]

See, the thing is ... most Americans DON'T put America first, yet Arnold I believe truly does.
I disagree with the first point, and further one man isn't enough to change this... it's just dangerous.


It's not at all impractical to enforce a Presidential candidate being on a case by case basis, because it is rare and a very limited field. It WOULD be impractical to enforce it if it were for every legislator of every state or something on a case by case.
Who would judge?... Your change wouldn't make it case by case... you'd just remove the requirement altogether...

Anyway, we don't need Arnold there and won't take the position. That path is blocked.

As for the individual, you're a fool if you trust only an American to look out for America first. Kerry, for instance, did not have America first in his mind.
It's a question of probabilities and a deeper connection to the people. Arnold will never have that same connection. He only fits in in places like LA and NY because they're used to a lot weird shit... the Midwest and south wouldn't be able to deal with it.

Face it, Karma, the Presidential election is ALREADY judged on a case by case basis as far as candidates go, both in the Primaries and in the election itself.
So again, who decides?... you're not judging this case by case with your system, you're just not judging at all.


Anyone in their right mind knows that Arnold doesn't give a damn about Austria, relative to the United States, and would never betray America.
I would bomb Austria into ash if it was in the best interest of my country... I doubt arnold would.


Think about foreign policy, however ... I think Germany (which lately hasn't exactly been pro-America) would be MUCH more agreeable with an Austrian native who speaks their language fluently.
Then you don't understand European politics... if you want to deal with them you have to send them someone that they can't condescend to... Arnold, as nice a guy as he is, is easy to condescend too... and they would look upon America as comical thing.

The primary reason why Bush gets torn apart by the Euros is not because they actually don't like him... it's because they CAN tear him apart. They will capitalize on political weakness like sharks do on blood.

Plus, Arnold has bipartisan appeal, and is definitely moderate (heck, he even supports stem cell research), and even has a staunch democrat for a wife.
We have better choices at our disposal. The war has elevated many of our ranks into the national eye... some have been made modest heroes by it... we don't need to go changing the constitution to win an election.

I don't change the constitution unless there is something seriously wrong with it... there is nothing wrong with this provision... and changing it for one man is madness.

I just think that by having a total refusal regarding the law, you've got people *like* Arnold who are ruled out of running, when maybe that shouldn't be the case. Besides, it's not like some half-US mongrel who'd barely been here long at all would ever even have a snail's breath of a chance.

With the Mexican vote rising you never know...

I think you take the constitution too lightly... not your fault... it's a failure of our time.

[Justice]

I think you take the constitution too lightly... not your fault... it's a failure of our time.

Amen. Remember the principles this country was founded on. Remember the circumstances in which this country were founded during. Remember what the Framers wanted the country to be like. Tossing their word out of the window just seems wrong.


cheers, and
-=</|awesomeparty|\>=-

[MVB]

Justice, their word supported slavery and strongly opposed abortion. You willing to put your money where your mouth is?

Karma, you'd get a lot further if you didn't use such a foolishly condescending tone. You've got not age, wisdom or education on me, and as such should not be taking such a childish "I'm superior to you" stance. I'll respond to your arguments again when you grow up a little. This does not mean I won't help you out with DoW.

[eXoRciSt]

I think Terrell Owens should be president imo.

[/<yle]

I think your a fuckingdumbass and shouldent post here

-----

Dunno. Arnold does love this country. However, hes a damn fine govenor. Hes ambitious, but the ammendment will never pass. however, if he did run, he would win by a landslide. No candidate would even get close to the needed votes.

[MVB]

Demon, why would you vote Terrel Owens? You're a big 49ers fan, and he dissed the 49ers like so much dirt on his shoe. He split town, called your QB gay (forcing his departure as a result), and said FU 49ers, you can all burn in hell, I'm going for the big money and Donovan.

[eXoRciSt]

lol, he nevr said that...

But last year, he kinda ran for govener of cali.

[shutupandshave]

Yep you get some retard like shave in The election and hell be too busy doing what the rest of the world wants not what american and americans want.
You do know I am not American don't you?

The primary reason why Bush gets torn apart by the Euros is not because they actually don't like him... it's because they CAN tear him apart. They will capitalize on political weakness like sharks do on blood.
I find it difficult to believe you listen to anyone enough to know what their opinions are - especially Europeans. Incidentally, as a European, and someone that has spoken to a lot of Europeans about Bush, I can tell you with some authority that you're wrong.

[Karmashock]

Shave, you've been given people like Bush before... Reagan was similar in all the things you likely hate... the difference between the two men is that Reagan was fluid and able to deal with your nonsense. You loved Clinton because he agreed with you on most stuff and more importantly he was a brilliant speaker. You capitalize on the vulnerability of a leader and pounce... It's not something I'll blame you for... it's in your nature... I mean, how do you stand Blair?… He’s with Bush on all the foreign policy issues… could it because he’s quick enough to avoid and counter punch?

Anyway, you should like the next US secretary of state... he was chosen specifically with your nature in mind.

There will be peace, Karmashock.

[shutupandshave]

I was too young to express my views when Reagan was in charge. I don't stand Blair... or B.Liar as he's known as here. I have marched against him, and will do so in the future.


Reagan never dealt with MY nonsense. The two of us never said a word, and when I was young I thought he was quite cool, but then I also liked playing with guns, and wanted to be Captain Kirk when I grew up.

Please, ask me my opinions instead of second guessing them, then replying with your usual patronising and incorrect opinions. Presumptious, self-centered wanker.

[MVB]

You're both heavily patronizing, and I think a great deal of mansechs is in order. It seems in both your natures to view differing opinions or less capable debaters as less than you.

Go on, get it on. *turns on the funky karma-suas love music*

[shutupandshave]

I think the difference is - I do, and have admitted when I am wrong, and am fully understanding when I am.
I dont lock threads, start throwing insults about, and cry like a bitch when I am wrong...only when I am right and whomever I am talking too, is too stupid to GET IT.


THREAD LOCKED SUAS RANDOM EDITED WITH NO WARNING LOTS OF MANSECHS

[MVB]

sorry, couldn't help myself; thread not really locked

[Karmashock]

shave,
when was the last time you admitted you were wrong?... you tend to just stop posting when you've been caught in a big one... :D

[MVB]

I'm not one to defend suas, admittedly. He has done nothing to try and curb his animosity towards me, and it frequently flares up. I don't really have anything personal against him, but he seems often to feel the opposite about me. Nonetheless, he has on some occasions admitted he was wrong.

He would likely say something very similar to what I would say, on the lines of "I don't pick fights I don't know about, and so I'm not often wrong simply b/c I don't talk about things I'm clueless about."

[Karmashock]

Well, clearly he hasn't been wrong since "ye olde tymes of yor"... because I've never seen it.

[shutupandshave]

I think that's because you don't pay attention to what other people say.

Incidentally, when have I been caught in a big one? I'd like some links please?

[MVB]

Here you go; suas caught in the big one

http://bdmlr-images.frontios.com/albums/userpics/10001/normal_Grey%20seal%20in%20net%20credit%20Ross%20Fl ett.jpg

[JADezimar]

Terrel Owens is a huge fag. Has major attitude problems. Even before he had em with the 49'rs you could c it when he played other teams. Hes a loose cannon

Quote:
Yep you get some retard like shave in The election and hell be too busy doing what the rest of the world wants not what american and americans want.


You do know I am not American don't you?

Yes Shave thats why I would never elect you. Look at your attitude and the general foreigners attitude towards the states. Total hater -_-. I play games and discuss on forums ideas and opinions all the times and we are perfect freinds. But -_- there not pure haters like you are. You are no better than what you preach against.

[JADezimar]

[Terrel Owens is a huge fag. Has major attitude problems. Even before he had em with the 49'rs you could c it when he played other teams. Hes a loose cannon

Quote:
Yep you get some retard like shave in The election and hell be too busy doing what the rest of the world wants not what american and americans want.


You do know I am not American don't you?

Yes Shave thats why I would never elect you. Look at your attitude and the general foreigners attitude towards the states. Total hater -_-. I play games and discuss on forums ideas and opinions all the times and we are perfect freinds. But -_- there not pure haters like you are. You are no better than what you preach against

[shutupandshave]

I have stated many many times that I have no problem with Americans - it's stupidity that I cant abide. Sometimes I am not completely informed, however I tend to be able to hold my own in the majority of the debates I take part in. I feel that you, personally (and you seem to enjoy getting personal) wade in, without thinking.

You say I am no better than what I preach against - what AM I preaching against, and what am I doing that makes me no better than it?

[Karmashock]

Ignore him... he's 99 percent rhetoric... shut off the air and he'll choke.

Snuff, Karmashock.

[shutupandshave]

Why dont YOU ignore me Karma?

PLEASE?