Got a favor to ask yall'

[TaiNteD]

Well, I have agreed with Hanna to help her figure out which maps should be in the next community map pack. Soooo, we made a deal. She tells me which maps she wants me to look over to see if their competetive/ nice looking, all that good stuff, and I test them. Though, the catch is that I need some volunteers to help me try out the bigger player maps. Sory, I can't tell if a 3 v 3 map is competetive if it's jsut me. :P That and I want the feedback from all yall' so I can give a populists rating. The first map were gonna' do is The Three Kings. Hanna made it herself. You can find it here: http://dawnofwar.filefront.com/file/Three_Kings;35942 Anyone interested in helping me out with this, post here and give me a time when you're available. :D

[Chance]

Seems good i just wish i had deacent internet(it would take likle 30 mins to download :( )

[TaiNteD]

Dammit.

[Hickory]

I can play it any time tomorrow after 7 pm pst. If Hanna's as creative with maps as she is with writing, then this oughta be veeeeery interesting. :jig:

edit* pst=gmt-8 so that would be 3 am gmt. for all the overseas guys :)

[TaiNteD]

Ohhh yeah. You be right near meh. :) And that time sounds good to me too, if nothing else we'll play on some 1 v 1 maps and do that. But hopefully Hanna shall also be on so we can play the 2 v 2 maps ffa. Or possibly a team match if we can manage to drag another play on too. :D

[The Fell Hand]

Sure thing Taint, count me's in. Bug me sometime so i can get around to dling/installing

[Mistress Crystal]

Downloading

[TaiNteD]

SWEETNESS! Thanks guys, owe ya's one.

[Hanna]

I want to be there to play and hear people's impressions.

Well, just the good ones. The bad ones I don't wanna hear cause I have heard way too many criticisms of the map for one lifetime (there's a link to the thread when I released a public beta of it and people shredded me to pieces). The map's final for all intents and purposes, though I might make a new loading screen and credit TLSC for all the help and for being just generally nice to me. :)

It's a 3 v 3 teamplay map. Three relics. Each side gets one relic for free and there is one in the very center to fight over. There are six critical objectives -- one for free at each end of the map next to the relic and four in the middle on pedestals in the castle/temple complex.

In the beginning of the game it is usually a fight in the castle/temple complex, setting up defenses on the many control points that are set up in strategic places to block the ramps up into the castle/temple, but also to outside of the complex so that advancing out of the complex is dangerous as well. That's assuming people are building listening posts on them, otherwise they get capped and uncapped a lot.

There is a lot of cover on the map and a lot of it is used in unconventional ways. All ramps are negative cover. People have complained a ton about this, but I was trying to simulate height advantage. There is light cover around all of the edges of the walls in the complex, but it is very thin cover, not enough to cover a whole squad. So, basically, it's trying to simulate troops having an advantage of being on the castle/temple walls shooting down onto troops on the ramps which aren't defended. You'll see what I mean when you get on the map. I do suggest playing a skrimmich against the AI just to get a feel for the map before you play online to get used to the non-standard cover dealies. There are many "easter egg" cover spots that make sense when you think about it from a trying-to-simulate-height-advantage perspective. It's not perfect because the engine just doesn't understand differences in height, but in general, it is better to be in a protected area than not. It's bad to be going uphill or downhill when the enemy is above you.

There are some craters. Again, good to be in the craters, bad to be standing on the lip of the crater where you are likely to get your head blown off. It's even good to be just outside of a crater because you can get some benefit from hiding behind the same crater lip they are hiding behind but being on the other side of it. It's a slim area, not enough to protect a whole squad, but enough to protect the one soldier who is smart enough to duck down and fire over the edge of the crater at whoever is inside.

Starting points are set up midway between the back of the map and the temple/castle complex in the middle. So, you have to watch your back as well as your front. Invisible units can sneak in behind you and fuck you up.

I know people are going to complain about it, but it's what makes the map. Whether that's good or not is up to each individual but I'm not gonna change it. The map works, it feels right to me. If nobody likes it then that's fine, but the map is what it is. If you get into the theme of it, it can be a *really* fun map. It's big, it's complex, there are many ways to play the map and it's not so straightforward as something like Kasyr Lutien or Bloodshed Alley.

That's what I was aiming for anyway, but I've only played a few times online with people and a lot of skrimmich against the AI. One of the things that I learned while testing some of the 1vs1 maps with Tainted last night was that most of us are making maps and we have no idea how people are actually going to play them. The two maps we played that I really love and have a fun time playing skrimmich games on are *horrible* for people who actually know how to play the game and know all the tricks. Most of the mappers don't know the tricks and we are just making maps that feel right to us and we spend more time trying to make maps look interesting than we do making them balanced and not so easily exploited by people who know way more than we can ever know about actually playing the game.

I'm starting to see the flaws of the map pack project: that we're giving people maps that we think are cool but just don't work for people who play at such a high level as so many of you do. I'm trying to include as many of Psy's maps as I can, but they got such *ahem* luke warm reception by other mappers that it's becoming clear that we just don't know what the hell we're doing most of the time. We're just painting pretty pictures.

Which isn't an entirely bad thing. The Map Pack project isn't just for competitive high-level players. It's for everyone, from the person who just bought Dawn of War yesterday and the people who will never play online and for people who only play multiplayer at LAN parties. Since none of our maps can be played auto-match anyway, they'll only be distractions for high-level players.

Still, I think we have the ability to make maps that can be "tournament quality" and I'd like someday for our maps to be included in tournament games. That means we have a lot of work to do and I'm going to have to do a lot of research into how you play, pick your minds, and (without giving away your secrets) write up a document on how to make maps that are balanced, take into account the way high-level players play, and always leave each player with a fair chance. That's not easy to do.

So many maps that might meet those qualifications have some graphical issues that will cause the mapping community to disqualify it. And that's fair, but dammit, it's so hard to make a map that is "tournament quality" *and* meets the incredibly high artistic standards of the mapping community sets for itself.

I'm seeing the Map Packs as a way to get feedback now, to make better ones in the future. Which doesn't mean I think that Map Pack I sucks. Much to the contrary. I basically put together Map Pack I by myself because the project was stalling and about to die and if someone didn't put something together and release it we wouldn't have a Map Pack project going. Now that we do, we still have to balance the needs of all the different players, but having maps that meet the qualifications that people who play as well as you require will benefit everyone.

Hope to see y'all tonight. :)

Remember, be nice to Hanna. If you don't like my map that's fine. You can even tell me you don't like it. But I don't want a list of what's wrong with my map. There's already a five-page thread in the Maproom forum for that. :) What I need is feedback on how we can make maps that work for high-level play and your permission to write up a tutorial about it. I'd love it if people would add their opinions here or in another thread or email them to me because GameSpy doesn't log conversations and I have no memory (and usually can't even read most of what is said because the font size is so fucking small and impossible to read).

And I am on my knees begging all of you to download Map Pack I. There are some fun maps in that Map Pack, including one of Psy's. So you're supporting TLSC by downloading it. :) Map Pack II will have another one of Psy's maps in it. We're supposed to be releasing Map Pack II early next week and *no* testing has been done except what Tainted and I have done last night. Somehow I have to find a way to make Map Pack II better and more exciting than Map Pack I and I don't have anyone else to turn to.

It may be too late to save Map Pack II but I know there are going to be at least some great maps in it. The problem is filling in the map pack with other maps that could be great maps with a little editing. I want these Map Packs on everyone's computer. I want them being played online. That's the whole reason we're doing this. Making them easy to install and worthy of playing. Yes, we made mistakes with Map Pack I and we'll make mistakes with Map Pack II, but I hope we can do something to make the maps that the community makes to be maps that people like TLSC will play regularly.

I can only do this with your help.

Love,

Hanna

[amir]

i'll play i ya want me to, depends what time GMT though

[TaiNteD]

Was thinking around 17:00 GMT time tonight. Can joo make it?

[amir]

Erm well its 18:36 GMT now lol. :)

[TaiNteD]

*Scratches head* Okay I'm confuzled now. *Counts on fingers.* 3:00 GMT correction. That's awhat I meant....I swear. >.> <.<

[amir]

is dat 3:00 am if so soz but i cant make it mate :(

[TaiNteD]

When can joo make it?

[amir]

Well dont change all your arrangements for me mate :) if ya plans for that time just carry on with it :)

[TaiNteD]

Answer the question dolt. :P Because if you can make it on a time, I don't have to switch all the arrangements around, we could get together and play 1 v 1 maps, everything helps. My schedules really interchangable that's why I ask. They wanna' release the next map pack Monday. :(

[amir]

Well i'll be available tommoz 8:30pm ish GMT

[TaiNteD]

*Thinks* Okay good, I can be on at that time. Sweet, hope to see ya' tomorrow. If nothing else I'll check out some 1 v 1 maps for us to try tonight so I got some maps already picked out and ready to be tested when I see joo tomorrow. :D I'M SEEIN' SOME SERIOUS PROGRESS!! YAYNESS!

[amir]

Kk mate :)

[Hanna]

Damn, all that happened while I was editing my message (http://www.tlsconline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=49567&postcount=9)? :/

Still Loving You, You Fast-Posting Dears,

Hanna

[amir]

Hahaha :)

[TaiNteD]

KKKKKKKKKKKekekekekekekekekekekeke.

[1kn0wfear]

ur even saying kekekke now! Im going to have to copyright my personality so u dun become me taint :P

[TaiNteD]

>.> <.<

[Hanna]

So, in like two hours, right?

I'll be there. Sleep deprived, but there.

Love,

Hanna

[laserflip]

I have nothing productive to say.

[Mistress Crystal]

Can someone mod LAser, there? That post was pure spite.

[TaiNteD]

Heh. Nice thing I was sleeping then. :P Well me and Hanna have checked out quite a few of the maps already. We still haven't been able to organize a big ass three kings game. But we are running out of time so I think that that's gonna' be scratched unless we get uber lucky. But either way, whenever I see someone thats agreed to it online I'll give dem a shout.

[Hanna]

If I get end up getting uber lucky, it ain't gonna be cause I'm online. ;)

Love,

Hanna

[Hickory]

lol, Hanna. :ass: (never used that one yet! ;) Seemed like an okay time to use it. :up: )

So i have yet to play the map in a normal 3v3. Maiden and I played against the comp, but we left to get back to the lobby hoping to catch the rest of you all. I never got to see the oasis yet. heh Guess I'll have to check it out by myself. Can't wait to see it. :D

[Psy]

grab prax (weavern) if you can - he's very perceptive map play and balance wise and has helped me with khaine isle in that as well.