Is it MEH, or does TLSC seem right-wingish?

[tom]

I dunno, it just seems to me that TLSC is pretty to-the-right.

Why is this?! INTERNET GAMING COMMUNITIES ARE SUPPOSED TO BE ULTRA LIBERAL PINKO COMMIES!

[Karmashock]

nah, this is normal for the country...


This is WHY we talk about left wing media bias... it disguises and/or ignores half the population... or makes us out to be either stupid or insane.

The last three clans I've been a part of broke this way too... I was in one that broke liberal... but it was pretty small.

[Weavern]

We should all get out that evil test that floats around the relicboards which determins how political we are and average everyone's results to see if we really are right wing... coarse that would require work and most of us here are lazy folks are we not?

[Karmashock]

ok you could just do a poll and have people declare themselves...


Provide 5 options gradiating from very left wing, to neutral, to very right wing.

[Weavern]

Thats the problem with polls like that they dont really adress people's realistic perspectives they just are what they think they lean towards. I'll dig up that poll. Which is here http://www.politicalcompass.org/ I seem to remember this poll being much larger and not green but I guess they have changed it since last i saw it.

[Karmashock]

polls like that are stupid because they don't have enough dimensions to cover ALL politics. You can't put Hitler and Gandhi on the same graph unless you have at least four dimensions.

American politics all by themselves are more specialized and can be more accurately looked at one two dimensional graph...

That said, out of laziness... one dimension is fine for us.

[/<yle]

The neo-concervative movement from the 70s is finally in fruition. Down with the media left!

[Karmashock]

I love the smell of napalm in the morning...

[/<yle]

Apoc now... great movie :banana: :nod:

[The Dark Messenger]

Yeah, we all know that American media is controlled by huge left-wing groups, such as Fox ¬_¬

[/<yle]

Fox is the exception, and i dont like them.

[Karmashock]

I like their news side... I don't like their programs...

and they're ONE and new... the others are all pretty left leaning... though msnbc is sort of trying... the have a right leaning show... but their news coverage hasn't improved.

[The Dark Messenger]

What, so you like news stations having political agendas? Yeah, because nobody likes unbiased opinions anyway.

Sometimes I watch Fox News over in the UK. Man, nothing makes you LYAO more than that :)

[/<yle]

I dunno, i watched CNN in europe, it was so fucking biased. there was an israeli/palestinian conflict, the first announcer said that palestianian gunmen fired on israeli troops and they retaliated. immediatly they went to break and a new chick was up there, saying that israelis shot into a crowed of palestinians. so biased. thats one example

[Ummon]

Reality and truth as we imagine them do not exist, so in the end they're not biased at all.

[The Dark Messenger]

Okay, Fox isn't biased. So what the hell is, then?

[Ummon]

Human, I guess.

[vacio]

controled by goverment (bit paranoid i am)

[Ummon]

Most of the things we think and say are lies we tell ourselves. They sell information and not give it away for free, therefore they will pick the information we want to buy most: lies, as I was saying.

The revolution which saves us from biased media (both left and right-aligned) starts in our eyes and brain. Until we remain biased, the lies we are told will only be our fault. When we stop being biased, they can tell an infinite amount of lies, but we will be able to follow our inner truth nonetheless.

[vacio]

then their is that too

[MVB]

Fox isn't biased. The problem is that it ISN'T, and so all of the other news stations that are more or less hyper left wing LOOK like the "norm," making Fox look right wing by association and relevancy.

[Karmashock]

Fox is pro republican... It just is... that said, most news stations are pro dem...

what's good about fox is it's news coverage which is pretty fair... the shows are more for entertainment...

[Magus]

Actually, it seems to me that its right wingish only because right-wingers here are the ones who come into this forum :). Odds of me convincing anyone in here of anything: 0. So I dont bother getting exasperated.

About the political compass: on the RB, Atredies Paktu, a very right wing member, scored slightly to the left of John Kerry. Bad poll, or sad commentary on the shift to the right?

[KWK man]

KILL EVERYONE! thatll show em, no but commies suck and so do politicians, in general

[JADezimar]

Ya most of fox shows actuallly give both sides a chance to argue it out. And they try to display facts from both sides. Where as other media programs the majority of em only point fingers and pick which subjects they want to cover ignoring other subject. Half they time there even manipulating the truth. But I am tired of being called ignorant or a morn cuase I support bush.

But mvb really put in perspective when he explained why fox isnt biased.
Any of you here of kfy or i radio from los angeles ?

[Karmashock]

<---------- Lives in LA...

POLITICAL HUMAN SACRIFICE!!! :D :D :D

[The Dark Messenger]

Until I receive broadcasts myself, I'm not gonna believe that there's worse than Fox.

BTW, I'm a mid-lefty quarter-liberal :)

[JADezimar]

Oi i think mvb put it well when he said almost all media is left winged. so Fox showing both sides of the story and actually siding on the right side. Makes them so horrible :P
If you watch fox more often then not does it programs like hanity and colms not get to argue and display both sides of the stories? Whereas other channels only display the side they want you to c ?

[DrunkenUno]

America as a whole is right-wingish.

[Polaris]

i've always thought this clan to be more to the left side, but not really actively. it seems to me that most of the active informed persons in politics that participate here are conservative, and thats why it appears to be more right-wingish.

[/<yle]

Neocons are taking over universities.... muahahahahah :banana:

[shutupandshave]

If you're far right, then something in the middle is going to be to the left of you. Even if, generally speaking it is right wing.

Basically, for the Nazi's among us... If eveything seems left wing to you, it's because you're fascists

[JADezimar]

Shave thats very retarded. Theres a Far right, Theres a Far left, And in the middle you have Right and left then very few middle ground. Its ignorrant to call every person on the right nazi or fascists, that would be the general whole populists. Corporations which generally control the Far Left and control TV media etc Is Far Far Far left o0. Most the american population is right to Far right. THis is why your mislead to believe that the majority of things are left and The far right views everything as left. Yes Tv Makes it appear that mostly eveyrthing Far Left is normal But i just xplained its corporation. Most of america Disagrees with these views meaning there the middle ground how else would republicans have taken the senate and presidency o0. I dont c everything left nor do republicans but we are generally speaking media is. Thats why Fox which is halfway normal would seem Far right to you o0.

[shutupandshave]

Woah there Mr Presumptious. When did I say fox seemed far right?

When did I say fox seemed far right.

My point was (and it might help if you read this slowly). IF YOU ARE FAR RIGHT, THEN EVERYTHING SEEMS LEFT WING TO YOU.

Obviously the same is true in reverse.

It was an observation, and a comment aimed at a few people here (not to you though) that I am sure will understand.

[JADezimar]

Sorry was just relating it to the last posts semi on track of the topic o0. (And i miss poloris my apologies)

[DrunkenUno]

Woah there Mr Presumptious. When did I say fox seemed far right?

When did I say fox seemed far right.

My point was (and it might help if you read this slowly). IF YOU ARE FAR RIGHT, THEN EVERYTHING SEEMS LEFT WING TO YOU.



Very true Suas. In fact, the Democratic party itself is either centrist or slightly right wing, but is called the left because it is simply to the left of the Republican party. There is no true "left wing" political party in the US that has any power at all, unless you would consider the socialists and workers parties, who get like 5000 votes nationally.

And I guess the Green Party could be considered SLIGHTLY left wing.

[JADezimar]

Untrue drunk there is far left democtrats, there are far right republicans then you have regular right republicans and regular left democrats. Your own morals, ethics and views determine what you c as regular left and the republicans as far right o0 and no far left. what you see as extremisms far right. Other people on the other spectrum will c your normal left As far left.

(this was stated by our last election, Kerry and Democrats have obviously lost touch with the american public in general wouldnt that mean that ...... there alot further away in the left than the norm of the generral public) Thats how I and most people would interpret that o0

[Karmashock]

Very true Suas. In fact, the Democratic party itself is either centrist or slightly right wing, but is called the left because it is simply to the left of the Republican party. There is no true "left wing" political party in the US that has any power at all, unless you would consider the socialists and workers parties, who get like 5000 votes nationally.

And I guess the Green Party could be considered SLIGHTLY left wing.
Socialized medicine is of the left.


If the American democrats look like right wingers to you, then it's because you're all commies.


Same logic... prove me wrong and you annihilate your previous argument. Hold that my arguement is true and you are at least as bad as any of us.

Love, Karmashock.

[tom]

America is somewhat social as-is. What with welfare and all.

[Karmashock]

Exactly my point, so don't say we don't have leftist parties here or that we're all rightists.

That's nonsense... Are the rightists winning?... yeah... the socialists haven't had a new idea in decades. But that doesn't mean that they don't embody the soul of the democratic party.
=============================
Oh, and about SS... Bush is going to try and privatize it. :)

[JADezimar]

hmmmz if I had more details on that Id say its a good idea. WHat all they plan to do with the ss ?

[Karmashock]

privatize it.... start a process where people will put less money into public SS and more into private accounts that people will own and the government won't be able to touch.

[JADezimar]

I think thats a good idea. I fear on teh current route to have no ss in future for myself. Plus If you put into your own ss account youd automitically get a return. My Wife's aunt her and her husnband both worked, She worked for over 20 years. And her kid got sick So she quite working to take care of him. Well when he died things really went shitty she got sick and now is blind and handicapped also. The husband is working 2 jobs to make it. And she cant collect ss cuase its been more than so many yrs that she is worked. Aint that messed up o0 ?

[Karmashock]

yep, the nice thing about something that is yours is that it belongs to you... obvious, but over looked.

[DrunkenUno]

Untrue drunk there is far left democtrats, there are far right republicans then you have regular right republicans and regular left democrats. Your own morals, ethics and views determine what you c as regular left and the republicans as far right o0 and no far left. what you see as extremisms far right. Other people on the other spectrum will c your normal left As far left.

(this was stated by our last election, Kerry and Democrats have obviously lost touch with the american public in general wouldnt that mean that ...... there alot further away in the left than the norm of the generral public) Thats how I and most people would interpret that o0

My point is, regular democrats are not left. Sure theres a LEFT WING part of the democratic party, but the party as a whole is centrist/slightly right.

Just like the republicans arent FAR RIGHT WING, but there is a section of the party that is.

[Outrageous Cheek]

I dunno, it just seems to me that TLSC is pretty to-the-right.

Yeah. And thank GOD FOR THAT!

[Karmashock]

My point is, regular democrats are not left. Sure theres a LEFT WING part of the democratic party, but the party as a whole is centrist/slightly right.

Just like the republicans arent FAR RIGHT WING, but there is a section of the party that is.
Both American parties are moderate by international standards, however both of them are on different sides of the line. The democrats are certainally leftists. This is obvious in the kinds of programs they support and the way in which they phrase their messages. The republicans are in a state of transition at the moment so it's difficult to see where they'll go. Currently they're right wingish on social issues and increasingly moderate on economic issues.

I wouldn't say that the democrats are right wingish over all or that the republicans are leftist over all. Both parties have components that go against their grain, but on average they remain leftist and rightist respectively.

[JADezimar]

Just goes to show Drunken is a Lefty and so that seems like normal middle ground to him. Making it appear that anyone near the right being alot further to the right to him.

[shutupandshave]

The rest of the known universe think the Republicans are fascists and that the US is about to descend into a bout of genocide against Muslims...

Sorry, the US "HAS" descended into a bout of ....

[Karmashock]

Fascists?... you're a total and complete irredeemable tool.


Stop talking politics and go make balloon animals for the kids...

Billy wants a pony, Karmashock.

[/<yle]

Republicans arnt facists. Were not putting people in camps or shooting people who dont agree with us. The american public is fed up with the Far left that rules the Democratic party and has given the republican party a mandate. It has both houses and the presidency, and looks like a lot of judges will be retireing soon. However, the ones that are up for retirement are Concervative so, it dosent change the makeup of the court much.

[JADezimar]

Shave Shave should just go jump off a cliff. lol

[Karmashock]

people like him are just too filled with bitterness and hatred to be reasoned with... it comes from a life of living in the leftist echo chamber... it's really kind of sad...

[JADezimar]

More like another country :P

[Karmashock]

nah, it's not a national thing... any group can have an echo chamber and we have lots in our own country... there are also some very open foreign cultures... Shave comes from one of them... that said, you can choose to live in a box in such a country... as I said, rather sad.

[shutupandshave]

Republicans arnt facists. Were not putting people in camps or shooting people who dont agree with us.
LOL - this is hilarious
Guatanemo bay anyone?

JAD, Karma and you will never like me, because I make fun of people that are stupid. That would be the two of you. Karma gets the piss taken out of him because he never listens to anyone else, he always thinks he's right, even when proven he's not, and because he's so far up his own arse it hurts. You get the piss taken out of you because you're a stupid kid who decided to suck up to people that talk big, without thinking about whether they're right or wrong.

Hell, even MVB has stopped talking to Karma on these boards apparently... why? Because Karma makes wild claims and never has any kind of evidence to back them up.

You mistake amusement and mild micky-taking for bitterness and hatred. If you didn't think you would clever, I wouldn't make fun of you for being so stupid. You also mistake anger at the system as anti-US sentiment (I believe you call that terrorism nowadays).

[MVB]

Suas, I hope that you're not one of the "rest of the world" which thinks that Republicans are a) fascists, and b) are going to embark on an anti-Muslim genocidal campaign.

I'm willing to believe that the rest of the world is that goddamned stupid, but I'd hope all quas-intelligent and greater individuals in it do not belong to that level of ignorance.

[shutupandshave]

The same "rest of the world" that screamed that there were not a whole tonne of WMD in Iraq before that war...
Yes that's us.

I dont really think that all Republicans are fascists, and that there is going to be a general anti Muslim genocide (or sentiment) throughout the world. However if you look at this thread you will notice there ARE some fascist ideas, and just speaking to Ummon will show you how anti-muslim someone can be... ideas that were not expressed before a couple of years ago.

Edit: if you look at Kyle's definition of a fascist (or more to the point, his reasoning as to why the US government was NOT fascist you can see why anyone could call the US government fascist in this particular debate).

[Karmashock]

shutupandshave,
<added to the ignore list.>
=============================
MVB,
If you live in the liberal echo chamber then it's hard to believe anything else... it's like a religion.
===============================
edit:
I had to...

The ONLY thing in kyle's definition that could even begin to be described as fascist was being against the dem's claptrap... if that's all that it takes for you to throw the word 'fascism' around then you do so very lightly... the word loses all power when used like that... you have cheapened it beyond recognition.

As always, good work...

[MVB]

Ummon is not a Republican, nor an American.

As far as anti-Mulsim sentiment ... I think Islam as a religion was founded by one of the worst human beings Earth has known; a man who would have been every bit as bad as Hitler if he'd had the resources for it, killing everyone not a Muslim he could possibly get his hands on, unless they converted. I think that there are plenty of good Muslims today, though, and don't have anything against them as people or individuals.

I think any intelligent and rational individual would inherently know that the US government is not fascits, and so would not come to any such moronic conclusion. I know you're just trying to point out how bad some of the arguments made sound, and can't possibly actually believe such a silly thing yourself.

[shutupandshave]

Most of time I dont believe it, but then I think about it - and I saw a lot of comparisons - the loss of personal freedom for the good of the state, unjustified/illegal wars, people imprisoned without trial...

Karma, you are FUNDAMENTALLY stupid. The US government, in the past few years, have done BOTH of these things
Republicans arnt facists. Were not putting people in camps or shooting people who dont agree with us.

[MVB]

The UK invented the concentration camp. There are times and places for everything. The difference-maker is the long-term, and whether short-term losses of liberty for the greater good really do remain absolutely short-term. Although I have to say, I have lost 0 liberties. I'm a law-abiding citizen, so patriot act laws don't really apply to me.

It has potential for liberty-removal that is somewhat worrisome, but from my point of view things like abortion are the worst acts of genocide in human history, and make me wish there were a free pro-life nation I could move to that was a decent place to live. So I certainly have big problems with the US, but things like the Patriot Act are -- in my book -- horribly insignificant.

[Karmashock]

gitmo isn't a fucking concentration camp... are they detained?... yeah... that's about the only comparison...

[shutupandshave]

"gitmo isn't a fucking concentration camp"

1) Did Kyle say concentration camp or did he just say "camp"?
2) What is your definition of a concentration camp?
(according to google, the definition is..."penal camp where political prisoners or prisoners of war are confined")

[MVB]

Invented by the British in South Africa during the Anglo-Boer war; the original usage was by the British general, who literally wanted to Concentrate the Boers by placing them in barbed-wire enclosed areas, in order to curtail guerilla warfare.

[shutupandshave]

Which unfortunately had the opposite effect. The majority of the prisoners were women and children - which the British fed and clothed, leaving the men completely free of obligation to fight against the British. What you posted wasn't a definition of a concentration camp though.

[Critta]

Republicans arnt facists. Were not putting people in camps or shooting people who dont agree with us.

*cough* Iraq *cough*

[MVB]

Actually, over 20,000 women and children died in the concentration camps; the British treated them like shit. Over 14,000 Africans also died in said camps.

[JADezimar]

>.< What you all dont c is The United States isnt in Iraq for hatred of muslims. If we were we'd be keeping the country for ourselves. Raking all the oil in that we could for ourselves. We wouldnt be sending food over there for them. We wouldnt Be trying to defend the helpless ones. We wouldnt be paving there roads. We wouldnt be putting up Commen luxuries like phones. We woulndt waste Our time on them we would kill them off. I think You guyz have twisted Iraq. And rememberThe UK started Camps so does that make them the fascists too ?

OH WMD ya that may have been a reason to go there. But there were plenty of other treaties embargoes that were being violated And were enuff justification. There didnt have to be wmd. But on a 2nd Note high amounts of uranium were found shortly after the war was over. Ya it wasnt in a nuclear state. But the only thing that I know you can do with uranium is make nuclear weapons -_-.

What id like to know is there truly a way to ignore a racists fag like shave ? He is an absolute Hater, I guess that would make him a fascists also. Hmmmmz He hates states ppl, like he thinks states ppl hate muslims, how does that make his 2 year old brain any better than the ppl he hates?

[/<yle]

Critta, in Iraq, aside from a few badapples who abused some murderers, albit wrongly, where are the camps? Most Iraqis are allowed to move freely about their country.

[shutupandshave]

You've mentioned the fact the British invented concentration camps THREE times now MVB - what relevance does that have?

It's old news, and something that I've bought up in the past, and has been mentioned many times in this thread. I don't understand it's relevance?

There is a camp in guatanamo bay, there are non (to my knowledge) in Iraq.

JAD - which trade embargo's were being violated?
No, the fact that the UK invented the concentration camp 100 years ago doesn't make us fascist now. By your (retarded) logic - the present US government should all be tried for racial genocide against the Native American Indians.

I have, many times stated that I don't hate Americans - I dont like the way the US foreign policy affects so many people negatively. This is the last time I am going to be polite to you if you continue to make shit up. When did I ever say Americans hate Muslims?

[The Dark Messenger]

Y halo thar, Patriot Act (2001)???

[/<yle]

There is a camp in guatanamo bay, there are non (to my knowledge) in Iraq.

No, theres a Prison at Guantanomo bay. Big difference.

[shutupandshave]

The difference being what?

I think probably though - this is likely to turn into a "clan/gaming league" discussion.

[/<yle]

well, technicly its a military base. However their in cells, gaurded by MPs. A camp has comunal living area for prisoners, whereas prisons have cells. in WW2, POWs were kept in camps, where they shared living with other soldiers. Its a distinction.

[The Dark Messenger]

Guantanamo Bay is no prison. Prisoners get treated better. It's a psychological torture chamber.

[MVB]

Nobody has a clue what goes on at Guantanamo Bay. Speculation is nonproductive.

I mentioned the Brits the 3rd time because you made the statement that they somehow treated people at that camp well, Suas, which is utterly ridiculous (you mentioned something about taking in the women and children and clothing them, as if Afrikaners -- not africans, bu Afrikaners -- didn't have clothes of their own already).

Hopefully this would never turn into the clan/bunchofgamers discussion, b/c that would be a case of the truth vs. an outsider demanding the insiders change their ways.

[Karmashock]

gitmo isn't a concentration camp by any definition... we're only detaining terrorists or suspected terrorists there...

if it were a concentration camp we'd be detaining tens of thousands of a given religion or ethnic group for no other reason then that they belonged to that group...


The only two times I can remember the US doing anything like a concentration camp would be with the Japanese Americans during WWII (which although totally unconstitutional, was very humane) and the Native Americans occasionally (occasionally horrific)...

Gitmo can't be defined as a concentration camp unless you stretch the definition to the point where it loses meaning...

go for it though... Clinton when so far as to question the definition of the word "is"... so we've seen it all...

[MVB]

The Japanese-American concentration camps during World War II were not humane, Karma. Whoever told you that is wrong, and wherever you read that is flawed.

[Karmashock]

Just to make sure we mean the same thing...


I think it was fucked up that they had to go... I know that they lost most of what they had...

I know that the camps could not be left unless you could relocate east or fight in Europe.


however, life in the camp from what I have seen wasn't inhumane...

Don't get all pissy at me... that's what I’ve read and seen… I watch fucking interview with some of the people that were in the camp TODAY... if you know differently then make your case.

There were basically zero deaths from violence... they were properly fed... they were allowed to do pretty much whatever they wanted so long as they stayed in the camp.... they could buy things from mail order catalogues... the government even set up college classes in the camps later on... The kids in the camp described it as being like "summer camp" for the first few months in there... after the novelity of not having to go to school wore off, they stopped looking at it that way... but to look at it like that at all would be impossible unless the environment were at LEAST humane.


What do you mean?... the camps were f'ed up because good honest Americans were treated like a national security risk just because of their national organ. Beyond that, I don't know what you'd be talking about...


Again, don't get pissy... just state your case and we can exchange what we know like adults.

[MVB]

Well, for one, you have to think about atrocities and what they mean. I'll get to the uglier stuff, but for one;
Their homes and all of their possessions which could not be carried with them, any automobiles they had, everything was taken from them and sold off; they received little to nothing for them. When they were finally allowed to return to homes that no longer existed in most cases, they were given $25/person or only $50/family and train fare "home." These peoples' lives were removed from them, before they even GOT to the camps, and they were not returned to them afterwards.

Welcome to your new apartments
http://www.lib.utah.edu/spc/photo/9066/p144n192.jpg

What's that? You were well educated, a business owner, relatively successful?
Welcome to your new line of work
http://www.lib.utah.edu/spc/photo/9066/p144n058.jpg

Let's watch you with armed soldiers, like a bunch of common prisoners (and we will shoot people who violate the perimeter ... people were shot and killed)
http://www.lib.utah.edu/spc/photo/9066/p144n264.jpg

http://www.lib.utah.edu/spc/photo/9066/p144n226.jpg ... very humane


A quote from an article on the camps;
The U.S. internment camps were overcrowded and provided poor living conditions. According to a 1943 report published by the War Relocation Authority (the administering agency), Japanese Americans were housed in "tarpaper-covered barracks of simple frame construction without plumbing or cooking facilities of any kind." Coal was hard to come by, and internees slept under as many blankets as they were alloted. Food was rationed out at an expense of 48 cents per internee, and served by fellow internees in a mess hall of 250-300 people.


Unfortunately I'm not on UVA grounds, so I don't have access to primary sources that I normally would have; HOWEVER, I will be doing research there on and off all week, ON the subject of American public opinion regarding Japan during World War II (my actual THESIS, and the area which I am most well affilliated, is treatement of Japanese by Americans during the war), so if you continue to doubt the inhumanity of the camps, I will provide more in-depth research later on.

I will say these were not Death camps; people were not being mass-murdered, nor were they dying left and right from a myriad of diseases. This does not excuse them, however, and they certainly were inhumane. These people were 67% American citizens, BORN here (relating to your references about being born in America or not being born in America in another thread), and they had more or less all of their civil rights violated. Their quality of living went down drastically, to about the worst in the nation while they were in the camps, and they had their lives destroyed and removed from them -- their wealth, income, businesses, jobs, everything.

[Ummon]

Yes "humane" is not the proper word, at all. This is the example of how bad can someone react to someone else's crimes (eg. Pearl Harbour).

It's funny how everyone loves the WWII U.S. and everyone spurns the contemporary ones, yet in Guantanamo there are only terrorists or people who resisted with the force of arms to an attempt to convict terrorists, while the Japanese in those camps were all innocent people.

The paradoxes of human irrationality.

[shutupandshave]

Hopefully this would never turn into the clan/bunchofgamers discussion, b/c that would be a case of the truth vs. an outsider demanding the insiders change their ways. dont make comments like these - they're the exact comments that wind me the hell up, because.... it means that if a TLSC members calls TLSC a clan, TLSC would be a clan - and as they have, that makes you wrong.

Kyle: So, the only difference between a camp and a prison is the way the rooming is arranged. Ah okay.
*grins*

[Ummon]

Suas's point is a bit on the ontologic side. He is postulating that there is an abstract definition of TLSC that does not depend upon the choices of TLSC members. It's like saying that the UK is a Republic. Infact the reason why the UK is not a Republic is that the english people did never make it one.

In truth, most of Suas arguments do not make any sense.

[shutupandshave]

Just because you don't understand them Ummon, doesn't make them untrue.

I doubt you understand the mathematics behind the special theory of relativity. Does that mean it doesn't exist?

[Ummon]

Actually, my 1st hobby when I was ten years old was physics: I wanted to become a Physicist and I ended a Physician. The special theory of relativity is hardly comparable to your arguments, since it works much better and is far more complicated.

The general exposition of the special theory goes as such:

KE being the kynetic energy of the material point, SQR square root:

KE = mc^2/SQR(1-v^2/c^2) instead of the classical mv^2/2.

[JADezimar]

Good argument there Suas But ..... outta context o0 Even if Tlsc was a clan or not still doesnt mean they dont have the right to game with other people o0. Theres no rule in any game that says oh and if you wear a clan tag you cant game with other people :p

[shutupandshave]

JAD, thank you for your appreciation of my argument, however it's a long debate that people have waged within, and without of TLSC. At the end of the day it doesn't matter if TLSC are, or are not a clan. It matters when people tell TLSC what to think...and vice versa.

Ummon: once again you missed the point. Good Job.

[Ummon]

Maybe because there's none, Suas?

Or better, your point is tautological, or circular, and this sort of arguments makes for paradoxical consequences and never proves anything. I hope my objection is clearer now.

[The Dark Messenger]

Oh, so it's alright to psychalogically torture people just because we suspect them of believing that the Western world is morally wrong?

If the terrorists had a prison where they would hold our soldiers in cramped wire cages, deprive them of natural sunlight and keep them there without a single word that they may be released or have their suffering ended by death, would you consider that okay as well?

[JADezimar]

Ummmmmm the terrorists were the aggressors. And they dont keep our ppl locked up if you remember right they cut there heads off slowly with a dull knife o0.

And the United States isnt locking up every muslim in the cuontry. Only those That showed up and curious times and that theres evidence of that they are part of the terrorists network.

[Ummon]

If in believing so they kill people, you can bet on it.

[shutupandshave]

Ummon, a lot of what I say goes over your head because you simply refuse to listen to a lot of facts.

Too keep it interesting for other people - why not just not reply to anything I say that you don't understand, or don't see the point of... and I will assume you dont understand, and you can assume I had nothing to say.

[Ummon]

Suas, the one who doesn't understand that given your inferior capacities a little bit of modesty would be appropriate, is you. :dur:

Stop patronizing people like Karma and JAD who are just expressing their opinions to which they have right, and learn some politeness. And, if you don't like people refuting your points, it's you who should stop posting, and not the rest answering.

[shutupandshave]

Or quit TLSC because I was publically exposed as a liar, and owned numerous times in TLSC private.

Leave it Ummon.

[Ummon]

Sorry but Suas, you have never realized why I left TLSC. But you are free to think that the one reason you pointed out was the real motive.

[shutupandshave]

ah okay, so when you told people it's because I picked on you (argued with you and won) and they posted it all over the forums, and you agreed with them - you weren't telling the truth and neither were they.

Everything you complain about other people doing - YOU do... to the point that on occasion I have only realised you were doing something when you've accused someone completely innocent of doing it.

[Ummon]

Suas, I never complain on people, I just beat them if they deserve so. Like I just did with you.

And yes, I lied about my motives for leaving TLSC, and I'm pretty happy with the results, thanks. Many TLSC know the real motives, infact, and approve them and the said results. Now digest your bitterness, and get back to the on topic discussion if you can, hopefully learning to admit when you are wrong.

[JADezimar]

I have to admitt at times Saus is one up on me then karma saves my ass. But when I am one up on suas he does get quite patronizing -_-

[shutupandshave]

Ummon
You have complained about me in THIS thread - dont claim you dont complain about people!

JAD, Karma has made about 3 points in the entire time he has been on these boards, none of which I think have ever beaten anyone over the age of 11.
The fact I patronise you is wrong, but I do it because you're so infuriatingly stupid sometimes.

[Ummon]

Ok, you call it complaining, I call it owning. We disagree on terminology.

[JADezimar]

EH o0 Generally ive made good points occasionlly i just get irritated and frustrating with your condescending attitude. You really think your better than americans. If you search hard enough you even admitted it to one of mvb's posts o0. You said you hated americans and america and thought you were better. Thats why I lash out, thats a direct attack on me. I dont know your exact nationality I dont care cuase I dont hate a direct group or country. Like you apparently do o0 I can disagree with there actions sometimes. But thats where you should leave it you may disagree with things we do but it shouldnt make you anti US Like many ppl thats like hating someone Cuase they chose to play football instead of baseball. bleh I dont liek that you chose to go to the movies with betty instead of me I hate you!

[shutupandshave]

Yes, you call it owning, when it's not. Another one of your faults.

I think you need to spend a lot less time talking about other people's methods of argument, and the way they live their lives, and start looking at your own.

You're a liar, and more shockingly than that - you are - without a doubt the single least professional "psychologist" I have ever met (and - as you know my line of work, you'll know I have met a few). I am sure I've said this before... but you're attempts to analyse people over the internet - and then use your supposed qualification as a psychologist to label them unfit as a human being is an apalling misuse of your status, not just because you cant really make an accurate enough judgement over the net to do such a thing...

Anyway - If you want to make a point, make a point - dont attack the way I argue, attack my arguments. If you cant, then dont say anything.
Please.

Edit: JAD - can you please find where I said I hate all Americans, or that I hate America. That is not a view I have, and if I said it, I was probably very angry, and would like to apologise for it. I am very grateful for what the US has done throughout the world. I think for the most part the American people are fair, intelligent and well-rounded. I think however that they're sometimes manipulated, and out of touch with world affairs. I also think that Bush is stupid, but that does not mean the US government is.

[Critta]

It's like saying that the UK is a Republic.

Don't get me started on that one again :P

[JADezimar]

K shave Think were on the same page I apologize for my blatant rude attacks too o0. But I do like bush etc I just hope we can agree to disagree and We can cool it and be more professional o0

[Critta]

Ummmmmm the terrorists were the aggressors. And they dont keep our ppl locked up if you remember right they cut there heads off slowly with a dull knife o0

Right, so they attack - once.

You've now invaded 2 countries... and sent a lot of the Iraqi prisoners to where...

IN my mind (and the minds of a lot fo the people who have been locked up - America are the agressors and have been for a long time.

[JADezimar]

Weve invaded which 2 countries are we talking about again plz clarify what your talking about o0. And waht are you talking about iraqi prisonors again plz clarify o0? And zzz terrorists struck first with 9/11 Get off it about us being the aggressors.

[shutupandshave]

:)

thanks JAD - apologies for having a go at you too.

[The Dark Messenger]

I'd rather be killed quickly than be held in a Guantanamo for years, possibly only to be executed at the end.

At least give them decent living conditions, for Christ's sake.

And personal attacks only show that you don't have any more points and that you're getting desperate.

[Critta]

Weve invaded which 2 countries are we talking about again plz clarify what your talking about o0. And waht are you talking about iraqi prisonors again plz clarify o0? And zzz terrorists struck first with 9/11 Get off it about us being the aggressors.

The terrorist struck first, you attacked back (Afghanistan) - fair enough.

You then go on to attack a country that had NO INVOLVEMENT in 9/11, and mistreat PoW's you capture. In my mind that is agression.

Your president also has the cheek - 2 weeks into the war, to announce that "We've won" and begins to call any further fighting "terrorist attacks". Basically deciding that anyone still fighting is a terrorist, and thus can be sent to be mistreated in Guatemano Bay.

I won't "get off it about you being the aggresors" because as far as Iraq goes - you were.

[The Dark Messenger]

I still believe that Saddam needed to be stopped.

However, so do many other dictators around the world. Get to it!

You're definately right about the Bay, though. Enemy combatants my arse.

[JADezimar]

Its no longer war when the existing government and all its leaders are eradicated and a new iraqi government is implace. In which the Terrorists are even attacking the new existing government heavily supported by the normal Iraqi non-militant population.

#2 Its time to fully eliminate any chances of it happeneing again. YOu cant just sit back and wait for The next set of terrorists to Kill a bunch of innocents when our military could be eliminating a tyrant from the world and bettering a nation. Also Giving an ally in the middle east which will dearly help Centrailze a way to seek out terrorists.

What do you call beheadings. Thats you say warfare? Your sick critta very sick. (isnt Al quada behind the beheadings they claim to be meaning there operating in iraq too)

[Critta]

I really don't like your presumption. After the second week, when the accusations of terrorism were made, there was no Iraqi government, in fact from May 1 2003 to June 28th 2004 Iraq was under the control of the US millitary.

Now millitary occupation is not a whole world different from millitary dictatorship, you just have a country in control instead of a person. The Iraqi soldiers were attacking this dictatorial, occupying force which had taken control of their country. Yet they are branded terrorists? Open your eyes, take a look at it from their perspective - as far as they are concerned, your soldiers are as bad as you say their soldiers are.

Hey. maybe next time some terrorists kill some inncoent people, it would be a really good idea for the response from a "civilised" country not to involve the slaughter of more innocents than were killed in the original attack. (Check out the civilian casualty figures for 9/11 and then the Iraq/Afghanistan wars combined - you'll find there are a lot more dead Iraqi and Afghanistan civilians than there are American). Add to this the fact that the terrorist attack was perfomed by a small terrorist group, not either of those countries and I see a small amount on injustice there.

I call beheadings murder. What do you call dropping bombs on civilian houses?

[Ummon]

Suas, I have never said you are "unfit as a human being" for psychological reasons, but I do think that you are unfit as a debater for logical reasons. And what has this allegation of yours to do with the present debate? Has the fact that I might be the devil himself anything to do with your being right or wrong? Besides, if you pass your time exploiting bugs to peek in the private forums of TLSC and gain advantages in an online game, people have the right to suppose you have issues. Whatever their profession.

You postulated that I would not understand the mathematics behind special relativity, and I showed you it isn't so, with open sarcastic intent. Of course the point was not central and even logically related to your argument: but it's a fair indication of the arrogant way you look at the world, and how mistaken your assumptions generally are, and a wonderful occasion to make fun of you as much as you try to make fun of others. You know so little, and yet presume so much, that it is fun, IMHO.

And let me tell you, the fact that you took my joke about your sanity seriously, was your choice, and a relevant choice at that. MVB didn't take your joke about his sanity seriously, who knows why. And you still keep talking about that, so I have to suppose that it must have been something very important in your life, Suas. Not so in mine, alas, however you may judge that.

Am I a liar? I do tell minor lies to people like you who are hostile, and troublesome, sometimes, and always acknowledge that if possible, when the said lies are not useful anymore. Don't you? Never never? Well, it's not a good sign, you know. Being unable to lie is not being honest. It's being rigid. But I think that you are more likely unable to admit to yourself that you lie, and do it quite often, suas.

Although I remember you calling JAD Mr. Presumptuous without reasons, as he had not offended you. I remember you offending Karma when you could have just told him why he was wrong in your humble opinion, and accept the fact that he disagreed with you even after that. But the fact is, you have no such thing as a humble opinion.

Now, the fact that you judge me this or that way, leaves me completely indifferent. But thanks anyway, I appreciate the effort you put in it. Since you cannot in any way affect my life with your judgement, though, I think I will just take it as the rest of your statements, eg. an interesting curiosity.

Finally, there is no inherent proof in someone stating that members of an organization are suited to define it's nature more than outsiders do, of the fact that such organization must be defined one way or the other a priori. The argument is specious and it is so for formal reasons, of which you might be unaware of: but this doesn't excuse your mistake, nor force me to avoid this reason as a motive for my objections.

There's a latin saying: Mihi amicus Plato, sed magis amica veritas. Plato is my friend, but much more so is truth. Change Plato with "my opinions", change the number accordingly, and you have the answer to the reason why people generally have fun debating: it's to the betterment of their own opinions, not those of others. I don't think this is your motive though, really.

[The Dark Messenger]

Of course beheadings are part of warfare. Just look at the middle ages. A beheading was about the cleanest kill you could get.

Like I've already said, I view G/Bay as a bigger crime towards humanity than a few beheadings.

[Ummon]

Now millitary occupation is not a whole world different from millitary dictatorship, you just have a country in control instead of a person.
...
I call beheadings murder. What do you call dropping bombs on civilian houses?

1) Dictatorships tend to last a lt longer, and never peacefully change into democracies. Also, MVB has posted figures which show how the majority of Iraqis do not agree with the terrorist campaign, and appreciate the U.S. work on their behalf. There must be a reason for that.

2) War? Because we have said many times that those civilians were not the prime target.

Although let's agree as a paradox that the actual governement of Iraq is a dictatorship: judging from results, it's a far better and more convenient dictatorship than that of Saddam, and with a larger base of consensus too.

[JADezimar]

A bomb is an accident A Beheading takes planning. 9/11 very planned and intentional. Iraqi citizens yet again are most likely not even dying to us soldiers bullets. And no the military occupation didnt last long after the full decleration of peace. The government by the iraq's was put into place quite quickly o0.

Guantanimo Bay didnt kill ppl o0 but im not gonna defend that cuase I agree it was wrong. Even the president apologized for that for the states. But no the beheadings are far worse you should watch one and c if you can even make it all the way through without being mentally changed for the rest of your life.

[MVB]

I will say that after watching them kick that man on the ground, and intentionally saw his head off with a relatively small knife, I knew right then and there they were truly evil people, and NOT freedom fighters just believing in a different way of governing things than us.

Dez makes a point, amidst that post. If civillians become casualties in the line of fire during war, that's "bad," but certainly neither new or necessarily "wrong," but simply unfortunate. The United States certainly is not intentionally killing any civillians, YET Iraqi terrorists ARE intentionally killing civillians. Hell, in Falluja they are SNIPING civillians who are trying to get to Aid trucks to receive rations. The insurgents believe that even accepting food from the free Iraqi government is unacceptable. Drawing comparisons is, IMO, impossible.

I was pleased, btw, to see that in his letter of resignation Colin Powell expressed his pleasure at being able to work with the President in the liberation of the Iraqi people. Some fools claimed Powell was the "voice of reason" who was against the war. Such was certainly not the case.

[Karmashock]

Well, for one, you have to think about atrocities and what they mean. I'll get to the uglier stuff, but for one;
Their homes and all of their possessions which could not be carried with them, any automobiles they had, everything was taken from them and sold off; they received little to nothing for them. When they were finally allowed to return to homes that no longer existed in most cases, they were given $25/person or only $50/family and train fare "home." These peoples' lives were removed from them, before they even GOT to the camps, and they were not returned to them afterwards.
I already mentioned that... nothing you have said would be called "inhumane".

Lets not be silly here... it was bad, we both agree on that, but inhumane is going too far and not being fair to the authorities of the time. They were wrong about a lot of stuff... but they weren't monsters.

[shutupandshave]

Now, the fact that you judge me this or that way, leaves me completely indifferent
Which is why you posted a little speech pronouncing your innocence.


And this is the reason I think you're scum.
Suas, I have never said you are "unfit as a human being" for psychological reasons
And let me tell you, the fact that you took my joke about your sanity seriously

Anyway - moving on.
What about the US soldier that shot and killed the (I believe) wounded, unarmed person/soldier lying on the ground?

[Karmashock]

The offical statement by the US government at this point is that, if he did it, he broke the rules.

So the most you can get up set with is one soldier.

[Ummon]

Lol Suas, you make allegations, I have no qualms in answering.

It takes a lot of effort to explain stuff to you, apprently. Like the difference between a joke and saying "you are unfit as a human being". My apology for the verbose answer, the short ones you didn't appear to understand very well... Neither the long one really, but one has to do with the debate opponents he gets.

Next time you "move on" do it BEFORE adding snide comments though, it's much cooler.

[shutupandshave]

Karma
That point was aimed at JAD
Iraqi citizens yet again are most likely not even dying to us soldiers bullets.


Ummon
Next time you "move on" do it BEFORE adding snide comments though, it's much cooler.
lol

[Karmashock]

if you don't want anyone but jad to reply, then pm him.

[shutupandshave]

Just as you should have pm'd me with that last comment of yours?

Sure. However I didn't want only JAD to reply. I was actually letting you know who I was replying too so you could see the context in which the comment was made.

[JADezimar]

Saus... out of 100,000 you can name 1 direct Statement where a US solder shot 1 Iraqi solder..... now is that iraqi solder a civilian in teh 100,000 studies or a soldier? And yes that U.S soldier broke the rulz of engagement and its possible hell be prosecuted. I stated in another thread Iraqi citizens are being payed to fight also. And they do so outta there own greed. o0 Which could add to possibilities of U.S soldiers killing iraqi so called citizens. But saus that 1 soldier doenst justify several planned attempts of Terrorists targeting civilians when THe U.S doesnt condone shooting citizens.

[shutupandshave]

WOAH!!!!

The U.S. soldiers are being paid too - and you dont call them greedy!??

There have been more than one instance of US soldiers mis-treating Iraqi prisoners/civilians. Perhaps the Western media doesn't portray them so often... Try checking the Arabic media.

[JADezimar]

Ok NOw thats another lame comparison. U.S soldiers werent hired on the thought they new theyd go straight to war. Most ppl sign up for the military expecting a free ride. And I know about the G-bay That again was apologized for and those soldiers were repremanded. The U.S government I will state again, (you should try going back up to mvb's posts also) That our goal is not there to target citizens or do the cruel things that the terrorists goal is. How clear does this have to get. Or are you just ignoring the Facts I am stating trying to create this little dance of dodging the real subject with sad statesments like =us soldiers are getting paid. Or a U.S soldier shot a iraqi unarmed soldier which you were comparing to a 13 yr old kid civilian being sniped by Iraqi terrorists as the same thing. comon dude :)

[shutupandshave]

No, I agree it's not the US's goal to kill civilans. The fact however, that "apparently" it has still killed more than the terrorists and Saddam in the past 10 years, begs a few questions.

[MVB]

They have not killed more than the terrorists and Saddam in the past 10 years, as far as I'd heard anywhere. The facts are also suspect, and do not deliberately state the deaths as being caused by Americans, OR American bombs. Also, if a bunch of terrorists start firing from a building at Americans, and soldiers fire back, knocking the buliding down, and later find out that civillians were ALSO inside, I'd dare say all those civillian lives lost are the fault of the Iraqis, and NOT the Americans in such a situation.

That 100,000 killed is a ridiculous number, relates to deaths due to military action, and doesn't analyze the causes behind various deaths. Plus it's 12-16,000 killed, 100,000 total wounded, isn't it? Or something like that.

Also, that Iraqi dude was playing dead, and apparently wasn't even seriously wounded, i.e. could still operate a suicide bomb or something. They tried to get him to move and what-not, and he refused, attempting to basically trick them into leaving him there to get away and shoot at them another day. Killing him was wrong, but he certainly asked for it from someone like a US soldier who is having suicidal maniacs drive trucks at them all day long full of bombs. Frankly, I'm 100% glad that insurgent is dead. I have no remorse, whatsoever, for the bastards. Sniping their OWN people in the street just for accepting food from supply trucks. Taking unarmed contractors, burning them alive and hanging them in the streets for all to see their charred corpses. Let's get something straight -- nothing any American could EVER do comes ANYWHERE near the DAILY atrocities of the terrorists operating in Iraq.

[JADezimar]

HOw do you like this. Terrorists willl give kids guns, or put bombs on them and then send em to walk up to us soldiers and tell them to point the gun and pull the trigger, and or detonate a bomb when the kid gets up to em. Would be scary what do you do ?

[Karmashock]

Fact: We are acting out a sense for what's best for the region
Fact: We do not want to kill or hurt innocents.
Fact: We are not stupid.
Fact: We are not religious zealots.
Fact: We are merely human.


Now, taking that into consideration... proceed.

[shutupandshave]

MVB, that's a lot of hate for someone that knows very little about the individual that died.

Just because some of the Iraqi freedom fighters are real nasty people (which you KNOW I agree with) doesn't make them all like that. I have NO idea what the percentage of soldiers to terrorists are in the fighting force in Iraq at the moment.

Does this mean that all US soldiers are bad because some of them like to chain up Iraqi's, or that all American children are murderers because some of them burl through schools on rampages - of course not.

Fact: We are acting out a sense for what's best for the region
Jad seems to think that the US is doing it because it felt threatened by Iraq. So what's best for the US, not what's best for the region.

[Karmashock]

JAD's opinion's aren't necessarily my own nor do I take responsibility for them or your interpretations of them.


If you want to attack me, then use me... using JAD is pathetic.

[shutupandshave]

The point is - not everyone agrees with you.
I dont agree with you.

You said it's fact

PROVE IT.

[MVB]

Suas, there ARE NO Iraqi Freedom Fighters. The United States and official Iraqi Armed forces are the ones fighting for freedom. The insurgents are fighting to return to a religion-dominated tyrannical state of oppression. They ARE all uniformly extremist and -- to your and my way of thinking -- ethically challenged to the highest degree. Al Sadr is not alone as the only man who cuts heads off handcuffed men and shoots women in the back of the head who had spent 25 years of their life working for Iraqis, and who were themselves part Iraqi (Margaret Hassan, who ran an Iraqi aid organization for 25 years). That's why they're so hard to put out -- all 3,000 or 10,000 or 30,000 insurgents are uniformly willing to do whatever it takes to achieve their goals, including sniping children, blowing themselves up (in the case of some), and committing -- to our way of thinking -- heinous acts.

[Karmashock]

Again, you failed reading comprehension...

"acting out of a sense for what is best"

All it has to be is our intention and I'm right.

[shutupandshave]

Yes, it is a "FACT:" that you saidthe US is acting out of a "sense" of what is best for the middle east.

I never asked you to prove that the US was doing what was best for the middle east. I asked you to prove that the US is doing what it thought was best for the middle east.

I only ask because you said it is a FACT.

I am questioning your reasoning as to what is fact, and what is not fact. I am not going to dispute your facts until you tell me how you discovered them. It may well be that you can prove beyond all reasonanle doubt that it IS a fact, in which case I will glady accept it.

I find it especially annoying that you failed to understand what I meant - and I understood EXACTLY what you meant, yet you complain that I am not understanding you.

:(

[Karmashock]

lol... you think this is one sided?... please...

Anyway, what would you accept as proof?... give me an example.

[JADezimar]

I only ask because you said it is a FACT.

I am questioning your reasoning as to what is fact, and what is not fact. I am not going to dispute your facts until you tell me how you discovered them. It may well be that you can prove beyond all reasonanle doubt that it IS a fact, in which case I will glady accept it.


Saus Iraq, we all know its true its rich in Oil. With the proper leadership and lack of violence it could one day arise to be the most powerful, wealthiest and strongest nation in the middle east. (The reason it hadnt was cuase sadaam was a greedy bitch that spent most the prophets on idols and palaces for himself, amongst probably terrorists funding and bio and nuclear research this hasnt been proven. But alot of things in the worlds history hasnt been proven but it made it ok) If This is the case Iraq has the possibility of an economy to become quite strong, And under the right hands Can be highly influential and good to the area. Where as if the wrong hands had got it like if someone a bit smarter than sadaam after sadaam had passed away, and I gaurantee this man would be evil too. He could probably easily conquer the middle east, now before The united States Invaded the middle east they thought they were pretty untouchable down there and alot stronger than they really were. So this man may have started another war. There are plenty of ways to say were doing the middle east good help.

From The arafat is dead thread. Its stated like its fact that Sadaam was also funding arafats terrorists ways. And Arafat refused to sign peace props etc etc. Plz read that thread before responding to this. So if thats the case This in another way is helping the middle east.

[shutupandshave]

Karma - whatever evidence you have will be considered...which is?

[Karmashock]

give me a theoretical example... I don't want to waste my time digging up something only to find that you won't except it....

[shutupandshave]

What kind of evidence IS there on the subject. The point is - I cant think of what kind of evidence you could submit, because I cant think of any that exists - which was the point I originally made.

You're asking me to give you details of something I already said doesn't exist.

[Karmashock]

I'm not wasting my time digging up something if I have no assurances that it will be accepted.

Give me an example... otherwise I'll just forget you asked.

[shutupandshave]

It's not my job to find your evidence for you. I will happily consider anything you consider poignant. Just make sure it consists of factual evidence and not opinion.

[JADezimar]

Ok this one has gone on long enuff can we talk about something else.

[shutupandshave]

Feel free to make a new thread talking about what you want to talk about.