the economic dynamo of europe

[Karmashock]

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=71000001&refer=news_index&sid=as0vGJBvnMGM
getting near 12 percent unemployment... yikes...


we're around 5.4 in the US... when peopel were freaking out we were around 6 percent...

[Wicksy]

Just 4.7% here in the UK.

Another reason why I'd vote "NO" to the European constitution or joining the single currency.

[stats]

US unemployment

http://www.workingforamerica.org/images/econupdate/chart1.gif

http://www1.dorsetcc.gov.uk/LIVING/FACTS/Employment.nsf/0/d63ac171b1a0c62480256e8c00576303?OpenDocument

These figuers do make the UK look good actually. pff - for europe! britain seems to be doing pretty fucking well for employment imo. rule britania.

i think the average unemployment for the uk is under 3% wicksy

[stats]

http://epp.eurostat.cec.eu.int/cache/ITY_PUBLIC/1-09112004-AP/EN/1-09112004-AP-EN.PDF

^ thats a pdf so dont download it unless u have cable.

another thing you might want to consider is that the eu is made up of countries - not states and that the 'economic developement' or whatever of these member 'states' is not equal. spain for example may aswell be thirdworld compared with the uk... infact - france and germany may aswell be thrid world compared to the united kingdom.....

..... and america is the uk's poor cousin :shens:

[Karmashock]

Britain has always had a very good grasp of economics... beyond theory, they almost seem to have an instinct for it.

If any European nation takes the lead in controlling finance, it should be the British.

If you look at almost any economic statistic, Britain is at or near the top in Europe.

Germany actually has horrid economics... look at their growth statistics if you want to see a real nightmare (between ZERO and negative growth).

A nation’s economy must grow. This is COMPOUND growth, to not grow is to quickly be out paced by geometric forces.

[Karmashock]

and america is the uk's poor cousin :shens:
*cough*
GDP - per capita:
1
Luxembourg $ 55,100 2003 est.
2
Norway $ 37,800 2003 est.
3
United States $ 37,800 2003 est.
4
Bermuda $ 36,000 2003 est.
5
Cayman Islands $ 35,000 2002 est.
6
San Marino $ 34,600 2001 est.
7
Switzerland $ 32,700 2003 est.
8
Denmark $ 31,100 2003 est.
9
Iceland $ 30,900 2003 est.
10
Austria $ 30,000 2003 est.
11
Canada $ 29,800 2003 est.
12
Ireland $ 29,600 2003 est.
13
Belgium $ 29,100 2003 est.
14
Australia $ 29,000 2003 est.
15
Hong Kong $ 28,800 2003 est.
16
Netherlands $ 28,600 2003 est.
17
Japan $ 28,200 2003 est.
18
Aruba $ 28,000 2002 est.
19
United Kingdom $ 27,700 2003 est.
20
France $ 27,600 2003 est.
21
Germany $ 27,600 2003 est.
22
Finland $ 27,400 2003 est.
23
Monaco $ 27,000 1999 est.
24
Sweden $ 26,800 2003 est.
25
Italy $ 26,700 2003 est.
26
European Union $ 25,700 2004 est.


GDP - real growth rate (%)
105
United States 3.10 2003 est.
106
Uzbekistan 3.10 2003 est.
107
Korea, South 3.10 2003 est.
108
Antigua and Barbuda 3.00 2002 est.
109
Australia 3.00 2003 est.
110
Tuvalu 3.00 2000 est.
111
Tonga 3.00 2001 est.
112
Nepal 3.00 2003 est.
113
Liberia 3.00 2003 est.
114
Lebanon 3.00 2003 est.
115
Honduras 3.00 2003 est.
116
Guinea 3.00 2003 est.
117
Gambia, The 3.00 2003 est.
118
Brunei 3.00 2002 est.
119
Czech Republic 2.90 2003 est.
120
Hungary 2.90 2003 est.
121
Anguilla 2.80 2001 est.
122
Macedonia 2.80 2003 est.
123
Yemen 2.80 2003 est.
124
Japan 2.70 2003 est.
125
Cuba 2.60 2003 est.
126
Cyprus 2.60 2003 est.
127
Iceland 2.60 2003 est.
128
Bolivia 2.50 2003 est.
129
Uruguay 2.50 2003 est.
130
Ecuador 2.50 2003 est.
131
Grenada 2.50 2002 est.
132
Reunion 2.50 2003 est.
133
Spain 2.40 2003 est.
134
Maldives 2.30 2002 est.
135
Nicaragua 2.30 2003 est.
136
Slovenia 2.30 2003 est.
137
Barbados 2.20 2003 est.
138
Swaziland 2.20 2003 est.
139
United Kingdom 2.20 2003 est.


Unemployment rate (%)
44
United Kingdom 5.00 2003 est.
45
Japan 5.30 2003
46
Mali 5.30 2001 est.
47
Netherlands 5.30 2003 est.
48
Cyprus 5.60 2003 est.
49
Laos 5.70 1997 est.
50
Hungary 5.90 2003 est.
51
Madagascar 5.90 1998
52
American Samoa 6.00 2000
53
United States 6.00 2003

[The Dark Messenger]

Small numbers of very rich people bump GNP up.

[Karmashock]

that's why Luxemburg is at the top... ;)

[Wicksy]

i think the average unemployment for the uk is under 3% wicksy

http://www.hrmguide.co.uk/jobmarket/unemployment.htm
ILO-defined unemployment September to November [2004] was 1.4 million (4.7%), up by 13,000 in the last three months and down 64,000 on this time last year. The increase in unemployment over the previous quarter was due to the increase in the labour force (+112,000) being greater than the increase in employment (+99,000).

I've no idea what "ILO-defined" means. :confused:

I'm no economist at all. But why would anyone with stats like ours (pun intended stats ;) ) want to marry up with the Europeans?! It wouldn't do us any good - economically or morally. F*ck em. :tantrum:

[Karmashock]

over all it's like over 4 percent... it's very hard to get below that...


some areas will be very low and some will be quiet a bit higher...

San Diego for instance has one between 2.5 and 3 percent... but that's just a city.

[Tank0]

as a belgian i can only hope that GB becomes a full member of the EU , not only to make the EU complete but without them all the smaller countries in europe are slaves to Big Brothers France,Germany and Turkey in a few years time.


Germany had a "emron" case in the constructionsector , many big building companies failed through that scandal , it was a serious blow for their economy on top of the reconstruction costs of a unified Germany ( former communist germany weighs on the total economy )

that and bad management has caused the unemployment rate to become as high as in 1933 , the year hitler got elected . Austria has allready fascist in their goverment , extreme parties are rising in france , the netherlands,germany . In my country 1 out every 6 citizens vote for a extreme party .

honoustly i don t understand the brits , we offer you the part of big brother in the EU and yet your policy still is to be a remote state of the US . you sacrificed a world empire to keep poland and europe free and now you turn your back . i shiver at the thought of an european army without the brits , France doesnt want to take action for fear of their islamistic citizens and Germany is really nervous sending out troops for public relations ( still a bit touchy to send the wehrmacht )

EDIT : a full member of the EU is taking part in the aspects , the euro , metric system , european army , you know all the bells and whistles

[shutupandshave]

I think there are a few reasons why the brits dont want to join the EU.

1) France and Germany run it.
We've had more wars with France than anyone else, and to be honest, we think they're stuck up faggots. The Germans steal our sun loungers at 5 in the morning and we have to sit next to the pool on our towels.
2) What has Europe done for us? Let me think: You stop our meat coming in (which by the way was safter than almost any meat in the world... every country had BSE, we were the only ones that admitted to it. As a consequence our meat is now the safest in Europe). You disagree with us constantly about everything, and whenever we're around you, we feel like you're talking behind our backs.
3) Our economy is stronger than yours. So there.

Now, personally, I want to join the EU. As soon as is reasonably possible. I am just giving you the views of some British people.

I think the single currency is a great idea. I dont mind taking a bit of a hit to get the rest of Europe up to speed.

[Karmashock]

The US's take is that we don't want to lose a friend... Sort of like one of your friends hanging out more and more with someone else... you get lonely :( ... So when the brits say "the French are faggots", we're generally pleased... the French are usually nasty to us to begin with so its not like we care what they think at this point.

As to the Germans... we have mixed feelings about them... we kind of think of them like reformed axe murderers... that might be unfair, but that's honestly the way we look at them. Never a bad word, but always a little apprehension.


So... we generally want England to be happy. If they're happier in the EU, then that's what they should do. But we'll miss them.



As to the organization of the EU, from what I've seen it's a crock of shit - as in human excrement in a can. It's some massive document that is designed to make some nations by nature subject to France and Germany for no material reason. In the US we had to make all states equal with a little more power to those that had higher populations because they wouldn't join if we didn't.


Just our take... you should hold out till the system is fair. Once you get in, it rarely gets much better without near revolutionary forces backing you up.

[shutupandshave]

Well the US state system was a lot easier to organise from new, than the EU will ever be from old.

You had a new country full of new territories... we're "trying" to make a new country out of very very old territories. There is going to be a lot of "we cant lose our identity" going on if the merger happens.

I just want everyone to get along, and it seems natural that we get along with Europe, as we're part of it.

you should hold out till the system is fair
Hmm, maybe - tell me, do states all have an equal number of people in the senate or whatever, and if it's uneven, is it proportionate? How was it decided? I really dont know, and I think that there is a lot the EU could learn from the US... however I dont agree that Luxembourg should have have the same sway as Germany.

[Karmashock]

We had all of that; it was the threat of British conquest that got people to agree. Each colony had a very distinct government, culture, and in some cases a different language. All were 'officially' English standard and English was the trade language... the Quakers were mostly German, and we had a fair amount of Dutch and French about...


Seriously, American history despite its age is very complicated. We had at least 5 major groups and neither of them much liked the others. In fact, some didn't want to leave England at all. However, they were promised that if they didn't join, we’d burn them to the ground. So it was either be burned down by the English if we lost, or be burned down if they didn’t join. They took the gamble that we’d win, over the certainty that we’d burn their cities to the ground if they didn’t help.

So they joined because they feared the other colonists more then the British... many such cases.
Hmm, maybe - tell me, do states all have an equal number of people in the senate or whatever, and if it's uneven, is it proportionate? How was it decided? I really dont know, and I think that there is a lot the EU could learn from the US... however I dont agree that Luxembourg should have have the same sway as Germany.

The congress is bicameral. There are two bodies. The senate is there to protect the elite and the powers of its given state. The House of Representatives is based upon population and is there to see that the people are spoken for. These views and interests control the federal government, which in turn deals with inter state conflicts and represents the states internationally. Technically, we're more citizens of our given states then we are of our federal government. Old US passports used to stress this point. Though we've moved away from that in many respects, there are still a lot of powers and checks/balances that harkens back to that and those will not be changed.

I could go into “first past the post,” but I think I’ve said too much already.

So if you did it like the US does in Europe, then Luxemburg would get two senators and one representative. Germany would get two senators and like 50 representatives. The electoral power of a given state is based upon the combination of its reps and senators. Ergo Germany would have 52 votes and Luxemburg would get 3. I've not calculated these numbers, I'm just making an extreme example. RI, VT, AK, NH, and MT for instance have 3 votes each, and states like CA, NY, TX have over 30 each. The two votes that the smaller states might not seem like much, and they aren't in presidential elections, but you can't pass any bill in the senate without getting some of the smaller states to agree. In the senate, RI has as much power as CA. But in the House, CA and states of that size dominate.


Furthermore, the structure of each state's government is to be decided upon by that state so long as they don't violate a given set of rules set down by the national congress. The rules are generally pretty basic... you like... slavery is illegal type stuff.

The tax system is typically in triplicate. You have to pay Federal, State, and City taxes usually... though state tends to take less then 8 percent (depending on what you're doing and the state) and the cities rarely take more then a few percent. All told our taxes are about 30 percent... higher and lower depending on how much you make, how you make it, and where you live.


It’s a good system… one of the reasons the founders are almost regarded as gods. Very very sharp characters.

[Wicksy]

My limited knowledge of US politics I got from here:
http://www.electoral-vote.com/info/electoral-college.html

Its an interesting article and easy to understand. The whole site is pretty good actually, apart from the fact that the author is a fierce Democrat. But he provides good data.

The front page (http://www.electoral-vote.com/) shows the 2004 election results and the no. of college votes by State.

[Wicksy]

that and bad management has caused the unemployment rate to become as high as in 1933 , the year hitler got elected . Austria has allready fascist in their goverment , extreme parties are rising in france , the netherlands,germany . In my country 1 out every 6 citizens vote for a extreme party
....
honoustly i don t understand the brits , we offer you the part of big brother in the EU and yet your policy still is to be a remote state of the US . you sacrificed a world empire to keep poland and europe free and now you turn your back ..
You answered your own question there, Tank0. Read your first paragraph, then you'll understand some of the many reasons why a lot of us in the UK want nothing whatsoever to do with Europe. Why would we want to be "big brother" to that corrupt lot?

As for turning our backs... yes we helped liberate Europe. Thing is I'm not sure some of them WANTED to be liberated. They sure as hell don't show much gratitude for it. The French in particular are the most back-stabbing, treacherous, ungrateful and corrupt (morally and economically) bunch I have the displeasure to be a neighbour of.

France's Socialist policies have led to national strikes every other week. It reminds me of 1970's Britain. It took the Iron Lady to sort out that Socialist-induced disaster.

Economic stagnation, unemployment, appeasement and rampant anti-Semitism also define Europe today.

No thanks.

[shutupandshave]

If someone from Israel is called an Israelite, and someone from canaan called a canaanite, what are the people from paris called?

Now there's something to unite all the British :)

[Tank0]

. They sure as hell don't show much gratitude for it. The French in particular are the most back-stabbing, treacherous, ungrateful and corrupt (morally and economically) bunch I have the displeasure to be a neighbour of.
as far as i know GB , the netherlands and Belgium have a love triangle , in flanders fields we hold a tribute every year , thousands of americans and brits visit our country each year and get the fullest respect .

if you don t take a part in keeping europe free through political gestures you ll be forced do come liberate the good guys by force again

[Papa Smurf]

..... and america is the uk's poor cousin :shens:

:shens:

Did you mean Culturally, Morally or Linguistically stats?

[shutupandshave]

I mean no real offense to the Europeans, especially the cheese eating surrending monkeys.

:)


AP and UPI reported that the French Government announced yesterday that it has raised its terror alert level from "run" to "hide." The only two higher levels in France are "surrender" and "collaborate." The raise was precipitated by the recent fire which destroyed France's white flag factory, effectively disabling their military.

http://files.free-collective.com/users/suas/france1.jpg
http://files.free-collective.com/users/suas/france2.jpg

[JADezimar]

Suas I really enjoyed your posts lol.

[Karmashock]

as far as i know GB , the netherlands and Belgium have a love triangle , in flanders fields we hold a tribute every year , thousands of americans and brits visit our country each year and get the fullest respect .

if you don t take a part in keeping europe free through political gestures you ll be forced do come liberate the good guys by force again
... is it ok if we leave france under islamic/chinese rule for thousand years first?... cus' I think it would do them some good.... give them an appreciation for what we're fighting... :)