Updated IG List

[Darwinn69]

Well after getting a couple of more games in with my IG list here http://www.tlsconline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18572 it's time to make some changes.

Some things I've noticed playing.
1. The Hydras are awesome for their points. Three of them are cheap to put down on the field and they are a big threat against anyone out their. And in a squad they are survivable enough to take a couple hits and still be effective.
2. The Executioners are amazing. Every guard list I ever write from now on will have 2 of these...period.
3. The Medusas really under perform. I thought they would work out better, but in reality they don't get enough hits vs. hordes, and marines can get cover just as easily as an Ork. I played with putting demolishers in this slot since they would be more survivable and slightly cheaper, but I'm not convinced they would be more deadly.
4. My Troops just don't spit out enough firepower. Too often it would be 40 guys supporting 4 BS3 autocannons. This slot really needs to perform better. Veterans can do it, but only with special weapons at close range which is not where this list is heading. The other solution is to get more bullets with the infantry platoon, which means either adding HW squads or Chimeras.
5. Vendettas are great gun platforms, but a single valkyrie won't do anything. Dropping the suicide melta squad never worked out well enough to get my points back for them + valkyrie. The CCS would be more useful giving orders and using their BS4 more than one turn.
6. The inquisitor is really just a waste of points. The +1 is only semi helpful and deep strike protection is too situational to justify his points.

My conclusion is that Guard win through mass amounts of shots, not necessaraly the quality of those shots, which is what I was orrigninally going for. I can still win missions with this army pretty easily, but I can't wipe people off the table like I can with my Orks. I don't think it's a lack of killpoints so much as a lack of volume of fire. While their is a corilation between KP and Shots, I don't think their is necessarally a causation. That being said, due to the style I'm building in order to increase my firepower logically my KP will increase like 50%.

So with that in mind I think I'm going to make a couple of changes. I'm going to add chimeras to my squads to act as bunkers and provide additional firepower. One stationary chimera will have 2S7, 3S6, 3S5, 3S4 shots at 36", with limited capability of splitting that up. I'll also have my command squads in range so I can issue orders and will not be opposed to dumping the squads out of the chimeras to get more anti-troop firepower if needed.
I'm going to drop the medusas for points but add Pask to provide some long range heavy anti-tank and closer range mass fire support via a Punisher and hull mounted lascaonnon. A single BS4 S10 lascannon isn't the best anti-heavy tank shot around, but I like this tank better than a vanquisher which is really just a waste after you kill the landraider. The vendettas are just fine at dealing with anything AV13 or less.

Here is the list I'm going to use as it stands:

HQ (1/2):
Company Command Squad w/ Lascannon Chimera w/ Stubber - 135 points
(Not thrilled with these guys having a lascannon, but not sure what else to give them. Maybe meltas or plamsa, but in a semi-static gunline I think they would get more use out of some sort of ranged weapon).

Troops (2/6):
Infantry Platoon
- Platoon Command Squad w/ 4 Flamers Chimera w/ Stubber and HF - 115 points

- Infantry Squad w/ Autocannon Chimera w/ Stubber - 125 points
- Infantry Squad w/ Autocannon Chimera w/ Stubber - 125 points
- Infantry Squad w/ Autocannon Chimera w/ Stubber - 125 points

Veteran Squad w/ Lascannon Chimera w/ Stubber - 145 points
(Same thing with the CCS here. One of them needs a lascannon, but I don't which one or what to give the other. I'll probably leave it for now though)

Fast Attack (2/3):
Valkyrie Vendettas - 130 points
Valkyrie Vendettas - 130 points

Heavy Support (3/3):
3 x Hydra Flak Tanks - 225 points

1 x Punisher w/ Pask, HB Sponsons, Lascannon - 265

2 x Leman Russ Executioners w/ Plasma Cannon Sponsons - 460 points

Points: 1980
Killpoints: 15
Scoring: 5

Any thoughts on where to spend the 20 points, or what to do with the veterans and CCS?

My biggest problem is I don't have the chimeras yet. I'm not going to be able to buy them anytime soon, so back to the Orks for a little bit at least.

[paidinfull]

You don't find the 2x Executioners in a squadron being Overkill? Move and shoot 8x PC templates is a ton, let alone 10x

[Darwinn69]

Actually I don't. You really need 2 shooting at the same target to be effective. If I'm shooting at a full squad of marines(which will most likely be in cover), one executioner will probably kill around 3-4, 2 executioners will likely kill around 4-8. Sure their will be a couple of guys left over, but it's good odds that they will just be a couple of guys with bolters and won't be a threat anymore.


I'm a firm believer in overkill

[paidinfull]

Right on.
Perhaps you will have better luck than I did but I found that if you are mounting a unit in a Chimera it's best if that unit was BS4 as Orders are irrelevant. I suggest trying to find the 60pts to get that BS to 4.
Other than that... looks solid.

[Darwinn69]

I was considering that option, just putting vets in chimeras and rolling up the field with meltas and flamers to deal with the enemy. The problem I had was after buying all my "must haves" for this army I really only have points left over for 4 vet squads. I just don't think that's enough warm bodies to be able to manage loses. Not to mention as far as transports go chimeras are pretty slow so the will have a hard time catching any sort of mobile enemy.

[MVB]

Chimeras with meltaguns inside have a 27" threat range, b/c you can move 12, disembark 2 to the back of the 1" base (so 3" disembark) and fire 12" ... which is plenty threat range to deal with ANY "fast" army like Eldar Wave Serpent and Ork Trukk happy etc., where being w/in 6" w/ the meltaguns is unimportant.

If the completely non mechanized Tyranid are fast enough to manage eldar and such, mech guard are as well. I wouldn't sweat that aspect at all.


Chris has the right of it ... also, I don't know about the Pask punisher ... I get where you're going, but a pask vanquisher is cheaper, more mobile (you're moving and shooting all one way or another), and just as effective at raping trukks as land raiders ... it's not like it doesn't do anything once the raiders are dealt with, as per your statement ... don't need to be too myopic on it.

Just a thought there, that saves you 40 more points.

The twin executioners are also kind of overkill ... that's a lot of points to invest in "overkill" with a squad that already has the potential to put dozens of wounds on marine squads if it hits well to begin with.


I still wonder about the Hydras, only b/c of the fact that they are immobile. You lose 9 heavy bolter shots and 6 twin-linked autocannon shots the second any one of them moves.


I think the stubbers on chimeras are cool, if overly wasteful on points by the time you've bought them for all of them.

If you think of it this way ... dropping pask to a vanquisher, and dropping the stubbers, saves you more than enough points to keep all the units you really want, and convert everything to vets ... I reck'n.


Also, as mentioned ... it's really not many points. You only have 45 scoring bodies right now, they're all in chimeras, and most of them are only BS3. How can you say 40 warm bodies isn't enough but 45 is?



Still, doing our best to help ... there was a lot of defensive "these are things I'm positive of after only a couple IG games and will not change" precursor (I don't blame you, I can be stubborn too, we all have our little commissars inside us), so finding out ways to get you to "upgrade" without screwing w/ model count is all.

[Darwinn69]

Something else I realized yesterday. I played against an eldar list with a seer councel on jet bikes. I realized that IG have no good way to deal with them(not that anyone really does).

I'm actually considering finding the points to add an inquisitor back in to provide a physic hood. Any other ideas on how to deal with an seer councel, or do you think I should just ignore them?

[MVB]

Bullets fuck up seer council on jet bikes ... 4+ re-rollable isn't all that good.

You need volume fire, which your list is sort of lacking in. You have big boom guns, but not all that many bullets. Still, bullets are what does it. Devourerspam nid lists used to laugh seercouncil jetbikes off the table, even with 3+ rerollable.

You can also take a psyker battle squad in a chimera. It's not all that expensive, useful against most opponents, and yeah you might get fucked over by t he runes but ... *Shrug* the very second you get it off and turn that fortuneseer into LD2, the seer council is dealt with.



My problem w/ the Inquis is one you've already figured out - when you're not facing whatever, it's just a useless killpoint with no real value. Taking the PBS gives you a really nasty unit to use against anybody, and a nice "answer" to psykers ... just LD2 the bitches.

[Darwinn69]

After talking with Mike in shoutbox I think this might work out better:
HQ (1/2):
Company Command Squad w/ 2xmelta, Chimera - 125 points

Eliete(1/3):
Physic Battle Squad w/4xExtra physics, Chimera - 155

Troops (5/6):

Veteran Squad w/ 3xmelta Chimera - 155 points
Veteran Squad w/ 3xmelta Chimera - 155 points
Veteran Squad w/ 3xmelta Chimera - 155 points
Veteran Squad w/ 3xmelta Chimera - 155 points
Veteran Squad w/ 3xmelta Chimera - 155 points



Fast Attack (2/3):
Valkyrie Vendettas - 130 points
Valkyrie Vendettas - 130 points

Heavy Support (3/3):
3 x Hydra Flak Tanks - 225 points

1 x Leman Russ Executioners w/ Plasma Cannon Sponsons - 230 points

1 x Leman Russ Executioners w/ Plasma Cannon Sponsons - 230 points

Points: 2000
Killpoints: 19
Scoring: 5

All chimeras have Multi Laser and hull heavy flamer. I might play around some with the special weapons setups for the squads...I kind of want one or two to have a bunch of flamers, but I'll work that out internally.

[MVB]

Yeah, it's identical to give heavy flamer + 2 flamers, so you are "set" points wise either way.


I like this list; it's scary.

[paidinfull]

I agree with Mike that this list has a lot going for it.

I run almost the exact same back line(1x less Hydra) and have a lot of success with it.

Some comments on the Seer council:

Runes of Warding = 3D6, for an average of 10.5, which means statistically you are always going to fail with your PBS. Obviously it's not 100% but it's really going to mess up your "counter". Also, I've tried them out but had almost no success with them. The shooting attack was always good on paper but never did much for me in game. Same thing with the Weaken Resolve... could never really seem to get it right.

The problem with the Inquisitor is your builds for them. You realize you can give them BS4 Gun Servitors right?
3x MM or 3x HB or 1xPC + 2x either

I suggest as a better "counter":

Inquisitor 5x - 162
2x Multi-Melta, Psychic Hood, Emperor's Tarot, 2x Mystics, 2x Warriors

It's only 7pts more and you lose a Chimera, but now you have +1 to go first, a LD10 Psychic Hood, Deep Strike Defense, and 2x BS4 Multi-Meltas. You can then have them mount in the CCS Chimera and throw the CCS in a Vendetta.

Against Eldar I think you'll find the PBS is going to be almost worthless.

[MVB]

The PBS has the job of passing "once" and thereby preventing a fortune, after which you nuke them. It's not much good besides that, which is fine as far as they are concerned.


That aside, inquisitorial warriors are fragile as poo, and so are inquisitors. If you aren't going up against demons or eldar, you basically have way less use for that unit. The PBS is pretty usefully annoying against anyone, but that's just my experience facing it. For its cost, it's pretty damned durable and effective, but also low enough priority that people often ignore them, and you don't care if they don't.


Each their own, the larger point is you're really getting on the right track. Frankly, fortune won't bug you as much now anyway, b/c you have enough small arms fire at hand when needed to just blow up seers to begin with.

[paidinfull]

Just to clarify...
PBS manages to pass their psychic test 1x... how does this prevent Fortune? The effects of the LD modifier last until end of turn, which, and correct me if I'm wrong, unless specified is the end of player turn.

Were you thinking you could make the Seer Council LD2 during THEIR turn?

My thought was that you would reduce their LD to 2 and then somehow inflict 25% casualties and getting them to run away...

On the Inquisitor:
He does have a 3+ save and you do have 2x ablative Mystics to kill as the Inq doesn't lose the ability if they die... Still, a squad of 5x vs 9x is pretty big... do the PBS get a save? 5+?

Weird that they would get standard issue flak armor...

[Darwinn69]

I agree that PBS dosen't stop fortune. I read the rules after Mike suggested it and it deffinatly says "for the remiander of the turn" which always refers to player turn. If they wanted it to last on the opponents turn they would have said "until the start of your next turn". If it were game turn it wouldn't make since...so it would effect the enemy if I went first, but not if I went second?

However, I do agree that the PBS probably fits better than the inquisitor. That inquisitor squad would be nice but I would need to get them in a chimera. At that point though they come up to 50% more the cost of a PBS. So I'd be paying over 200 points to be great against deamons, eldar, some deep strike build and have 2 MM against everything else. If I could get them at 125'ish points with the chimera it might be worth it, but right now it seems a bit overcosted.

With enough shooting it's really not hard to get 25% casulaties on a seer councel around turn 2-3. If I can get their leadership reduced then making them run for a couple of turns is all I really need. Heck I could even us a valkyrie to escort them off the table. And the PBS can deal with all sorts of annoying things that would normally give guard a hard time such as Nob bikers, (chaos) Terminators, and other nasty non-fearless units and be a S8 pie plate against everything else. Not to mention seeing Necrons run off the board would be funny.

[MVB]

Yeah, the casualty thing is correct, and the read on PBS is correct ... doesn't affect next turn.

BUT yeah ... not hard to get 25% casualties on any number of scary units and then chase it off the board with the PBS power.

Ryan has the right of it.

[Darwinn69]

The other big thought is I'm leaning heavily towards giving them shotguns. It's unlikely I'll be standing still, so the 24" lasgun won't come into effect. The only big thing I might miss is the orders, but I don't think thats end of the world as I'd probably be using the reroll cover or twin linked most of the time anyways. And I can think of many scenerio's where I would want to assault something after I shoot it. For example I get knocked out of a chimera by orks and have a mob right outside. I shoot them with a couple of units and get them down a nob with one wound, an assault has a pretty good chance of taking him down, where as if I got charged it's not beyond the realm of possibility that I could loose. Same goes for loan space marines who survive my shooting.

[MVB]

Shotguns are almost a must on veterans.

If I'm going to shoot at some marines, or orks, or anything that isn't weedy T3 ... I'd rather shoot 13 s3 shots and charge than shoot 19 s3 shots and sit there. If you finish off all but 2 marines and charge, you're actually doing ok ... if you finish off all but 1 marine and don't charge, that one marine is quite happy to hop in a transport and save himself, or shoot you in the face, or happen to be the surviving flamer, etc. Works that way with so many armies that you really would prefer they charge after flinging a full on rapid fire anyway, than throw an extra 6 shots in, which is all you get from first rank second rank, since 4 of the squad members don't have lasguns at all.

[paidinfull]

Inquisitor preference aside... I'm concerned you both are missing something in regards to the Seer Council.

without Psychic Defense Eldar will have:
A Vehicle with a 4+/4+ in your face for one round (24"/36")
- To counter that you have 3x Hydras who can be stopped fairly easy from targeting the Seer Serpent by either 2x Falcons or 2x Fire prisms or a few Wave Serpents. Don't need to kill em just stop em for a round.

Assuming you shot everything you had at it
55% chance to take it down from 17x meltaguns
15% from the Vendetta
75% from the Hydras

A Fortuned 12 Man Seer Squad (Yriel, Eldrad, 10x Locks) within that vehicle

To inflict a morale check
if by some miracle you didn't have to move your 7x chimeras
42x Shots = 3.82 wounds

After that you have a pretty small chance to get the PBS Weaken resolve off. Not sure the exact %...

Hope they work out for ya!

[Darwinn69]

I should rephrase. It's seer councel on jetbikes I'm worried about. That seer councel , although much scarrier, is easier to avoid. Not to mention with all the chimeras around it's should be fairly easy to shield my Hydras for a turn to take all the hits from the falcons and fireprisms.

[MVB]

Building lists to worry too much about seer councils isn't wise. Seer councils themselves *ARE NOT* that scary, either, not to a solid build. They're at their best against low killpoint armies where they have a good opportunity to put themselves in play against equivalent or higher value things and use that save to advantage.

As soon as they go up against a unit-heavy enough foe, they quickly get beaten down, odds or no odds.

Also, a fortuned 12-man seer squad w/ yriel involved is ... waaaaaay over the top in terms of getting bang for buck.

[paidinfull]

I should rephrase. It's seer councel on jetbikes I'm worried about. That seer councel , although much scarrier, is easier to avoid. Not to mention with all the chimeras around it's should be fairly easy to shield my Hydras for a turn to take all the hits from the falcons and fireprisms.

Just a heads up.
I've looked over the rules on "tank formations".
If I can see the turret on a tank I can shoot the tank.
If the closest side to me isn't visible I can shoot at a side I can see but the target gains a 3+

Not sure if I've shown you this little trick but positioning your Hydras at an angle behind your chimera wall presents your side armor to your opponent, however, due to the rule I quoted above, if you show a small amount of frontage, they are now shooting @ AV12 and your Hydras have a 3+ vs a 4+ on AV10.

Mike thinks it's cheesy. I think (and it's definitely WW2) it's historical tank tactics come to 40k.

You don't need other tanks to do this, however, with the chimera and a hydra(chimera chassis) it's a pretty easy argument to make that they can't actually see the side they are forced to shoot at.

Back on Council discussions, with fleet allowing them to move+assault 15.5" on average vs 18" I really don't see how the bike's are harder to avoid. From running Nobs/Nob bikers I definitely think Nobs in a BW are much more resilient over the course of a game then the Nob Bikers. I guess it's really that one/two rounds of shooting on the unit.

In a couple weeks I should have my upgraded Eldar army ready to rumble, so we will have to try it out.

@Mike
Jeff runs Yriel+Eldrad+Council, a lot of players run an Avatar(155) + Eldrad(210) + Seer Council. If you are running a mech list, Yriel is the same price as the Avatar with the same hitting power(WS7 always wounds on 2+). It really depends on the list you are facing. While the Seer Council is resilient, against PM or Nobs, you need those wounds that ignore armor.

[Darwinn69]

Bikes are harder to avoid because they don't need a waveserpant to get accross the board. With concentrated fire it's unlikely the waveserpants will survive more than 2 rounds meaning their mobility is severly limited. Even with fleet assault based infantry can be easily avoided and the damage they do limited. They are only scary if they have transport options which is not hard to eliminate given how few eldar will likely have. Oh, and by the way Eldrad doesn't have fleet.

[MVB]

Eldrad instantly renders the unit not fleet, which a lot of Eldar players forget.

Regular farseers are a good deal less durable, to boot.

As far as the wave serpent goes ... "eh" ... they don't always make it across the board with reliability at all ... and when they do, oh well ... a lot of players will make a lot of mistakes in terms of allowing a seer council to get at their valuable stuff, and I've never seen them change games the way people indicate. They are CERTAINLY good, but you can accomplish roughly the same things with a smaller council and a basic fortune seer, without having to invest such a stupid # of points into it. It's metagaming, where you hope you hit the rock to your paper ... and it doesn't make for a good all comer's eldar list (IMO).

I'm kind of with Ryan. Small fortuneseer council in a serpent, or bikeseer council ... both are functionally scary and effective, but cost effective enough that you're getting the durability (better than value in terms of bullets required to kill them) even if you don't roll all that well on the 4+/4+ / 3+/3+.

That's the other note about the seer council btw ... if that serpent DOES get knocked down through the fortune, you've got a really good chance of the council inside getting pounded in the face pretty badly. Eldrad seer councils are a good bit slower, and less scary again as a result.

[Darwinn69]

You know I was thinking about the whole PSB vs. Inquisitor thing again. And I realized that we were missing a third option. You can just as easily take a Brother Captan w/ Physic Hood and Tarrot for a total of 96 points. For that you get a guy in terminator armor with 4 I4 S6 power weapon attacks riding in a chimera with one of your squads and giving them shrouding. He's good for cleanup duty and against against anything that doesn't have power weapons, for example gaunts, guard, Tau, Necrons, depeleted SM squad etc. For even more anti-eldar fun give him a psycannon for 30 more points, letting him ignore the seer councles(and demons) armor and instant killing the farseer.

He's almost 60 point cheaper than a PBS, and more survivable and mobile than a Inquisitor on foot. The biggest thing you lose from the inquisitor is the mystics, but anti-deep strike is nice but not that important in the grand scheme of things. With a PBS the biggest thing you loose is the chimera, which by itself isn't a huge loss except that it would be harder to overwealm someone with armored targets which is what my list is trying to do. However, going from 7 to 6 isn't going to short change me, and gaining 60 points I can afford something else.

[MVB]

Check legality of tarot on BC, and can models in terminator armor ride in chimeras? I understood they could not, but could be wrong.

[Darwinn69]

Well even if they can't have the Tarrot who cares. The reason to take him is the physic hood and is generally more useful than an inquisitor. And he does the same job as the PBS only a little less efficently and at the loss of a chimera. Without the Tarrot he's a steal at 83 points.

Yes, they can ride chimeras. Ogryns can ride chimeras, and their is nothing restricting terminators from hopping on board as well. It's unsure if they take up 2 spaces as but as the chimera holds 12 it's really a non-issue. The only thing they are specifically restricted from riding is Valkyries per the FAQ.

[MVB]

I don't particularly have an issue with it. New space wolves psychic nullification is bettar, tho :p (just saw dex)

[Darwinn69]

Be sure to clean your pants once your done.