Marines 2k

[Rhethro]

Alright i think i might start up a marine army and was kicking around the idea of starting i with something like this

HQ:
Pedro (175)

Elite:
10 Sternguard 4x combi-melta sarge w/ combi-melta and p-sword (290)
Dedicated Transport: Razorback w/ Heavy Bolter (40)
1 Ironclad w/ heavy flamer (145)
Dedicated Transport: Drop Pod (35)

Troop:
10 Tactical Marines w/ Flamer and Missile Launcher (170)
Dedicated Transport: Razorback w/ Heavy Bolter (40)
10 Tactical Marines w/ Flamer and Missile Launcher (170)
Dedicated Transport: Razorback w/ Heavy Bolter (40)
10 Tactical Marines w/ Flamer and Missile Launcher (170)
Dedicated Transport: Razorback w/ Heavy Bolter (40)

Fast:
2 Attack Bikes w/ 2x Multi-Melta (100)
2 Attack Bikes w/ 2x Multi-Melta (100)
2 Attack Bikes w/ 2x Multi-Melta (100)

Heavy:
1 Land Raider Redeemer w/ extra armor and multi-melta
1 Predator (60)
1 Predator (60)

2000 pts 21 kp 8 scoring

Let me know what you all think.

Rhett

[MVB]

Gut reactions ...

1) The sternguard aren't probably necessary, though they are cool. I think there's a tendency to "overpay" for them when you have pedro due to the scoring bonus, when pedro's presence properly used gives you a whole bunch of cheap sternguard right off the bat.

2) The dreadnaught does not fit at all, neither do the predators. Autocannon predators are pretty meh, just b/c you need more autocannons to make the weapon reliable (a la Tau missile pod spam or Guard autocannon/plasmagun spam). The dreadnaught ... what the heck is it doing?

3) You only have one unit in your entire army that can take monsters or dreadnaughts in combat, and he's dropping on turn 1 or deploying, and any opponent knows that. This is an unhealthy notion.


That stuff in mind, here's a "changed" list with the ironclad and preds taken out, and some things changed, to get your mind thinkin' a different direction. Not necessarily a suggestion that you DO this, i.e. completely change things, but go with it and see what you think ...

Pedro - 175

Pedro's Squad - Tac Squad w/ Meltabombs, combi-melta, meltagun, lascannon, NO pfist - 200
Rhino Transport (lascannon combat squad can sit in here and shoot from the hatch, safer than standing still and shooting in the wide open) - 35

Tac Squad w/ Meltabombs, Combi-flamer (or melta), flamer, power fist, lascannon - 220
Razorback w/ TLHB - 40

Tac Squad w/ Meltabombs, Combi-flamer (or melta), flamer, power fist, lascannon - 220
Razorback w/ TLHB - 40

Tac Squad w/ Meltabombs, Combi-flamer (or melta), flamer, power fist, lascannon - 220
Razorback w/ TLHB - 40

Tac Squad w/ Meltabombs, Combi-flamer (or melta), flamer, power fist, lascannon - 220
Razorback w/ TLHB - 40

2 Attack Bikes w/ MMeltas - 100
2 Attack Bikes w/ MMeltas - 100
2 Attack Bikes w/ MMeltas - 100

Redeemer w/ Multi-Melta - 250

Now every squad is a threat ... solving the issue of the list above where your list lends itself to certain opponents easily identifying the higher priority threats to eliminate. Every squad has double flames and extra attacks from pedro to deal with hordier opponents, plus melta bombs and a pfist to deal with vehicles or dreds (at least enough to make players with dreadnaughts think twice about charging). The attack bikes are retained, and still a very real threat to anything vehicle, plus effective at doing things like charging eldar, guard, gaunts, non-pk orks (lol) and other weak 6 to wound T5 things.

You've got 4 razorbacks w/ heavy bolters, and one "razorback" with a lascannon (the rhino with the lascannon inside).

It goes down to 15 killpoints / 20 killpoints, but up to 10 scoring units. Still 2,000 on the dot.

Adds 10 marine bodies, adds 4 power fists, adds meltabombs and spreads the combi-weaponry to your ac squads, loses extra armor, loses a drop pod.

[Rhethro]

Alright how about running this list with another theme in mind.

HQ:

Vulkan (190)
Master of the Forge (100)

Troop:
10 Tactical Marines w/ Flamer + Missile, Sarge w/pfist and Combi-Melta (205)
Razorback w/ heavy bolters (40)
10 Tactical Marines w/ Flamer + Missile, Sarge w/pfist and Combi-Melta (205)
Razorback w/ heavy bolters (40)
10 Tactical Marines w/ Flamer + Missile, Sarge w/Combi-Melta (180)
Razorback w/ heavy bolters (40)
10 Tactical Marines w/ Flamer + Missile, Sarge w/Combi-Melta (180)
Razorback w/ heavy bolters (40)

Elite:
Dreadnaught w/ Multi-Melta (105)
Dreadnaught w/ Multi-Melta (105)
Dreadnaught w/ Multi-Melta (105)

Heavy:
Dreadnaught w/ Multi-Melta (105)
Dreadnaught w/ Multi-Melta (105)
Dreadnaught w/ Multi-Melta (105)

Fast:
Attack Bike w/ Multi-Melta (50)
Attack Bike w/ Multi-Melta (50)
Attack Bike w/ Multi-Melta (50)


8 scoring units
23 kill points
2000 points

This loads me up with lotsa twin linked melta and would fit into a nice theme i think. Let me know what you think of this.

[MVB]

That is a really nice list. Maybe combi-flamer on tacs ... you've got plenty of hurt already in the melta dept.

[paidinfull]

Attack Bike w/ Multi-Melta (50)
Attack Bike w/ Multi-Melta (50)
Attack Bike w/ Multi-Melta (50)

PFfffffffft
I know it's 3x MM for 150pts but I these units are incredibly weak IMO.

Every instance I have seen them used they haven't done squat. To each their own I suppose but I suggest dropping them in favor of

4x Weapon upgrades to the Tac squads.
Missile launchers really are pewp. I suggest 4x LC @ 40pts
4x Weapon upgrades to the Razorbacks. I suggest 2x LC 2x AC @ 100pts
1x PW on the Squad that the MoF will join

[MVB]

36" threat range twin-linked multi-meltas that need "real" fire dedicated their way to kill them are invaluable.

Plus they can spank guard squads and small eldar squads in combat / and/or tie them up.

[paidinfull]

36" threat range twin-linked multi-meltas that need "real" fire dedicated their way to kill them are invaluable.

Plus they can spank guard squads and small eldar squads in combat / and/or tie them up.

What!? 3 attacks on the charge can spank an eldar squad or IG blob? What game are you playing?

Fire from 2/3 chimeras, which isn't very hard considering most will have at least 4 in a list, or a single Krak-ish missile or a variety of small arms fire.

I am aware that they are 36" TL MM threat, however, in practice they are rarely that effective.

T4(5) W2 A2 LD 8 3+

To each their own, but in general, bikes in the standard marine list just suck.

[Rhethro]

So how about replacing the bikes w/ land speeders, it would drop the MM count by one but make them vehicles.


This would also free up 30 points that i was thinking of spreading around the squads with weapons.

Now of the list of possible upgrades i was thinking of upgrading to plasma cannons instead of lascannons for the Tac marines. I also wanted to free up some points to replace the storm bolter on the dreadnaughts with heavy flamers. One possible way to get points would be dropping the combi-melta's on the sergeants. Another note is that I am not sure that upgrading the razorback's im not sold on a twin-linked whatever is worth 35 points.

Rhett.

[paidinfull]

@40pts the basic Razorback is a steal.
@75pts it's pretty damn pricey.

I've had pretty good success with TL Lascannon Razorbacks but I still want to run TLAC razorbacks based on the Smathammer.

IMO they are better at the role you are looking for the Speeders or the Attack bikes.

@13"+ range VS AV12 the MM has a 17.3% chance to destroy while the razorback has a 14.8% w/ LC and 19.7% w/ AC

@13"+ range VS AV13 the MM has a 9.9% chance to destroy while the razorback has a 9.8% and 13.1% w/ AC

@13"+ range VS AV14 the MM has a 2.4% chance to destroy while the razorback has a 4.9% and 6.6% w/ AC

You currently have 90pts spent between a Hvy Bolter Razorback + Attack bike.
A single upgraded Razorback is 75pts so you're saving a KP and 15pts.

If you are going with the AC Razorback you end up with 1x more shot and all 4x Shots are at +1S. I think it will come down to play style for you.

They are also slightly more resilient in that:
For 1 turn they have a 4+ cover to ignore damage
They are invulnerable to small arms fire
A lascannon that scores a hit has a 22% chance to destroy your Razorback VS an 83% chance to kill your Attack bike VS a 28% chance to kill your speeder

I say try it out. From experience and what I've seen I'm not convinced bikes fluff or codex wise belong in any marine codex.

[MVB]

You seriously think three "I can kill anything, and guard squads / eldar / etc. wound me on 6's" units running around "suck?"

wee ...

[Rhethro]

I was talking to chris yesterday and there is one good point about the attack bikes.


Why in the hell did the marines take their bike designs from the 40's? The model is just so bad looking.

So i think a conversion of them might be in order, I was thinking of making them trike servitors for the master of the forge.

[MVB]

Yeah, the bikes DO look totally crap.

[paidinfull]

You seriously think three "I can kill anything, and guard squads / eldar / etc. wound me on 6's" units running around "suck?"

wee ...

I think this is an example of "how they play" versus "how they look on paper"
Like I told Rhett, I think they're too expensive @ 50pts, ugly as s*** and playing against them as Eldar or Guard, never really had to worry about them.

[Darwinn69]

With what you are looking at you should probably just go ahead and do a drop pod list. 6xDreads in drop pods, 5-6xTactical squads in drop pods and Vulkan. At that point I think it's pretty safe to add some bikes with what ever points are left over, although I like land speeders better.

The problem with bikes is everyone can deal with them, and who won't want to deal with a single guy running around with a multi-melta. They are bad for the same reason obitorators are bad, they are the glass cannons in an otherwise hard list. Now, if you get in their face and give them other things to be more worried about or spam so many of them they can't deal with them all they would be great. But I don't think 3x is really going to cut it.

[MVB]

I can't stand drop pod lists, especially in this edition. Officers of the Fleet and other things keep you off the board, you're screwed by most armies regardless of what you drop down, and it's just ugly.

Give most good builds the opportunity to have a free crack at half of a marine army at point blank charge and all fire range on turn 1, regardless of waht the marines chuck at them when they drop, and you'll see a happy opponent.

Melta, close combat experts, ork spam, and bullet spam are all common in most of today's builds. A drop list is begging to get reamed, and any list dependent on reserves is inherently at the mercy of a few bad dice rolls (hello Demons).

Plus, you're losing fire power for the sake of dropping in peoples' face. It goes from Rhett's current build - which is all comers - to "metagame" build ... which is extreme and will totally boof some armies, but be utterly cracked by others.

[paidinfull]

On the subject of Drop lists...
I don't think enough people play them well.
Having the ability to drop in someone's face doesn't mean that you should.
Every player I see uses DP as Alpha Strike... I think it would be interesting to see it more used as a means to smash a flank... or to have every Dread jump out and Pop smoke rather than fire....

Not for this build though...

[MVB]

I generally agree with you on where they should hit when used, Chris. I just don't like an army where half your army must deep strike (which has its hazards even in a drop pod) right away on turn 1 ... and where the rest comes in quite sporadically.

There are too many all comers power builds out there that can and will happily smash a marine army in a flat 100% vs. 100% fight ... much less one where you only have to fight half the marines, and none of them can charge you the turn they expose themselves.

BUUUT YES, you are correct; dropping in someone's face haphazardly with a bunch of drop pods is never exactly wise.

[Crom]

most players have learned dropzone denial tactics... most of today's stronger power build lists can pull it off in one way or another and It really screws over the deepstriking melta pods

honestly i think 6 dreadnaughts would work better as a sort of... Dreadzilla list instead of a drop half/ hope for the other half soon list

[MVB]

Andrew is correct.

The top of the power curve laughs at drop lists / reserve lists.

[paidinfull]

I think Andrew is a Curmudgeonly old man dressed in the man-suit of a college frat boy.

[MVB]

He also lost to Grey Knights in the tournament, when the entire thing was on the line.

Just FYI.

[paidinfull]

Yeah, only a curmudgeon would do such a thing!

[Crom]

fucking grey knights....

[Rhethro]

So how about a smaller rehash to the list,

HQ:

Vulkan (190)
Master of the Forge (100)

Troop:
10 Tac Marines w/ Meltagun + Multi-melta, Sarge w/pfist and Combi-Flamer (210)
Rhino (35)
10 Tac Marines w/ Meltagun + Multi-melta, Sarge w/pfist and Combi-Flamer (210)
Rhino (35)
10 Tac Marines w/ Meltagun + Multi-melta, Sarge w/pfist and Combi-Flamer (210)
Rhino (35)
10 Tac Marines w/ Meltagun + Multi-melta, Sarge w/pfist and Combi-Flamer (210)
Rhino (35)

Elite:
Dreadnaught w/ Multi-Melta (105)
Dreadnaught w/ Multi-Melta (105)
Dreadnaught w/ Multi-Melta (105)

Heavy:
Dreadnaught w/ Multi-Melta (105)
Dreadnaught w/ Multi-Melta (105)
Dreadnaught w/ Multi-Melta (105)

Fast:
5 Vanguard Vets (125)
Rhino (35)

4-8 scoring units
18-22 kill points
1980 points


Now with this list the tactics would be use the rhino hatch with the weapons inside, IE first turn run 12 and pop smoke, then use multi-meltas or move and use melta guns/flamer. The only thought would be what to do with the last 20 points. My thoughts are to use them on either the vanguard squad by adding another model/upgrading or upgrading the master of the forge.

Any thoughts?

[MVB]

I would add the vanguard vet, or give the vanguard a thunder hammer or relic blade + meltabombs.

Then your vanguard squad becomes a pretty real threat ... i.e. Vulkan + 6 vets + master o' the forge, is an ugly charge to receive for most units ... enough for them to worry at least.

I like it, overall. I'm not sure the heavy weapon represents points well spent.