[Tau] 2k Lists

[paidinfull]

So I'm thinking about digging my Tau out of the "retirement closet".
I haven't played many games with them in 5th but they were pretty easy to win with in 4th, part of the reason why I stopped playing them.

I've tried to take two separate approaches to the following lists.

One is very mobile.
This list attempts to take advantage of TLOS rules and hopefully allow JSJ by having a block of 6 Vehicles to "hopefully" block LOS. In theory I should be able to hide 6 out of the 9 suits consistently. Depending on my opponent is what will start on the table, though more often than not the only things that will be entering from reserve will be the Kroot blocks.

It can shell out a decent amount of fire @:
3x S10 AP1 Shots or 3x S6 LBT
18x S7 (suits)
3x S6 AP2 (suits)
30x S5 (mobile)
18x S5 (Fire)
30x S4 (Kroot)

2k Mech Tau

HQ
Shas' O 1x - 147
Plasma, Missile Pod, HWMT, HWDC + 2*GD, Positional Relay

TROOPS
Fire Warrior 6x - 60
Fire Warrior 6x - 60
Fire Warrior 6x - 60

Kroot 15x - 147
7x Kroot Hounds
Kroot 15x - 147
7x Kroot Hounds

Devil Fish 1x - 130
Disruption Pod, Multi-Tracker, SMS, TA, Flechette
Devil Fish 1x - 130
Disruption Pod, Multi-Tracker, SMS, TA, Flechette
Devil Fish 1x - 130
Disruption Pod, Multi-Tracker, SMS, TA, Flechette

ELITES
Crisis 2x - 124
Plasma, Missile Pod, Multi
Crisis 3x - 169
TL w/ BK TL Missile Pod, TA
Crisis 3x - 169
TL w/ BK TL Missile Pod, TA

HEAVY
Hammer 1x - 175
Disruption Pod, Multi-Tracker, Burst Cannon, Railgun, Flechette
Hammer 1x - 175
Disruption Pod, Multi-Tracker, Burst Cannon, Railgun, Flechette
Hammer 1x - 175
Disruption Pod, Multi-Tracker, Burst Cannon, Railgun, Flechette

1998 points
79 models
5 Scoring Units
15 KP


Two is essentially the opposite and is almost entirely static.
The goal of this list is to pump a ton of long range fire down the pitch. In 5th Running has made this less effective but my intent is to maximize my deployment against armies that have Outflank units and those that don't. If there aren't Outflanking units I will just sit as far back into my DZ and take out vehicles and blocks of big hitters with my 9x Railguns as they arrive. I will also in all likelihood keep my Kroot in reserve, using their Outflank to contest, or even capture, objectives outside my DZ. In the event I play someone with a lot of Drop Pods or Outflanking I will pick a side/corner and either use the kroot as the first impact or counter charge.

It can shell out a high amount of AT fire @:
9x TL S10 AP1 Shots @ 6 Different Targets
2x TL S7 @ BS5
3x TL S6 AP 2
36x S5 (Fire)
10x S5 (mobile)
22x S4 (Kroot)
12x Marker Lights


HQ
Shas'el 1x- 98
TL Missile Pod, Target Lock + Array, Positional Relay
Ethereal 1x- 50

TROOPS
Fire Warrior 12x - 135
Ui, BK
Fire Warrior 12x - 135
Ui, BK
Fire Warrior 12x - 135
Ui, BK

Kroot 11x - 101
4x Kroot Hounds
Kroot 11x - 101
4x Kroot Hounds

FAST
Path Finders 6x - 87
Ui, BK
Path Finders 6x - 87
Ui, BK

Devil Fish 1x - 85
Disruption Pod
Devil Fish 1x - 85
Disruption Pod

HEAVY
Broadsides 3x - 300
Team LDR, A.S.S, 2x Shield Drone, Hardwired Multi-Tracker, Plasma Gun, BK, HWTL
Broadsides 3x - 300
Team LDR, A.S.S, 2x Shield Drone, Hardwired Multi-Tracker, Plasma Gun, BK, HWTL
Broadsides 3x - 300
Team LDR, A.S.S, 2x Shield Drone, Hardwired Multi-Tracker, Plasma Gun, BK, HWTL

1997 Points
91 models
4 Scoring Units
14 KP

[Crom]

I'm gonna need a cup of coffee before i start my fireknife rant. Also, are these lists based off what you currently own? or just free form list building

[paidinfull]

I certainly don't have 9 BASS... I do have 6 though.
Everything else I own enough to make these lists.
The suits are able to be configured in a variety of different configurations as I have them all magnetized, sans for the FW special character who is a FK w/ Shield and one who is equipped with the AFP. I easily have 12 suits that can be interchanged however. I might need to pick up a few weapon bitz but that should be pretty easy.

Not a lot of love for the FK anymore but over the years i've had a great deal of success with em. The main reason why I take them is that they fit with my play style of Tau which is to maximize my reach. I prefer having 9 shots down field vs 6 and so on.

[paidinfull]

I was looking at the Gun Line list and realized that there were quite a few things I could do to make it more focused on static shooting. The logic behind going with FireStorms instead of DeathRain is that with the addition of Marker Lights I theoretically should still be able to benefit from +2BS while gaining more Higher Strength shots.

9x TL S10 AP1 Shots @ 6 Different Targets
3x TL S6 AP2
8x S7 (Suits)
12x S5 (Suits)
36x S5 (Fire)
10x S5 (mobile)
10x S4 (Kroot)
12x Marker Lights

So I gain 6x S7 shots and 12x S5 shots while losing 12x S4 and 6x wounds

HQ
Shas'el 1x- 80
BC + Missile Pod, Target Lock, HWMT
Ethereal 1x- 50

TROOPS
Fire Warrior 12x - 135
Ui, BK
Fire Warrior 12x - 135
Ui, BK
Fire Warrior 12x - 135
Ui, BK

Kroot 10x - 88
3x Kroot Hounds

ELITES
Crisis 3x - 165
TLdr w/ BK + HWTL, 3x (FireStorm)BC + Missile Pod, MT

FAST
Path Finders 6x - 72

Path Finders 6x - 85
Ui

Devil Fish 1x - 85
Disruption Pod
Devil Fish 1x - 85
Disruption Pod

HEAVY
Broadsides 3x - 300
Team LDR, A.S.S, 2x Shield Drone, Hardwired Multi-Tracker, Plasma Gun, BK, HWTL
Broadsides 3x - 300
Team LDR, A.S.S, 2x Shield Drone, Hardwired Multi-Tracker, Plasma Gun, BK, HWTL
Broadsides 3x - 300
Team LDR, A.S.S, 2x Shield Drone, Hardwired Multi-Tracker, Plasma Gun, BK, HWTL

1997 Points
79 Models
4 Scoring Units
14 KP

[paidinfull]

A 3rd List with only needing to add in a few kroot hounds and some weapons.

Deployment will most likely be 3x or 4x Squads of Suits and 2x Squads of BASS.
The Positional Relay will be more intended to keep my few scoring units off the table until turn 4/5.
Reserve rolls will most likely look like:
Turn 2 Squad of Suits
Turn 3 Squad of Kroot
Turn 4 FW in Devil Fish
Turn 5 FW in Devil Fish

The Fish are basically just objective grabbers. I'm considering Dropping the TL from the HQs and giving them Flamers.

Deployments:
DoW will be HQ w/ Positional Relay.
Pitched battle = Refused Flank
Spearhead = Super Corner

2k All Suits, All the Time.

6x TL S10 AP1 @ 4 Different Targets
30x TL S7 (BS4/5) @ 12 Different Targets
2x S6 AP2
22x S5
10x S4
30x S4 I5 Attacks on the charge

HQ
Shas' El 1x - 83
TL Missile Pod, Target Array + Lock
Crisis 2x - 141
TL Missile Pod, Target Array + Lock, 1xBK

Shas' El 1x - 98
TL Missile Pod, Target Array + Lock, Positional Relay
Crisis 2x - 141
TL Missile Pod, Target Array + Lock, 1xBK

TROOPS
Fire Warrior 6x - 60

Fire Warrior 6x - 60

Kroot 10x - 130
10x Kroot Hounds

Devil Fish 1x - 90
Disruption Pod, TA
Devil Fish 1x - 90
Disruption Pod, TA

ELITES
Crisis 3x - 169
TLdr w/ BK, 3x - TL Missile Pod, TA
Crisis 3x - 169
TLdr w/ BK, 3x - TL Missile Pod, TA
Crisis 3x - 169
TLdr w/ BK, 3x - TL Missile Pod, TA

HEAVY
Broadsides 3x - 300
TLdr W/ HWDC, 2x Shield Drone, Hardwired Multi-Tracker, Plasma Gun, BK, HWTL, 3x A.S.S.
Broadsides 3x - 300
TLdr W/ HWDC, 2x Shield Drone, Hardwired Multi-Tracker, Plasma Gun, BK, HWTL, 3x A.S.S.
2000 Points
55 Models
3 Scoring Units
16 KP

[MVB]

My feelings about Tau revolve around the fact that they lack reliable ways of dealing with close in threats. I'm not just referring to close combat, per se, but the arrival of large numbers of melta-type toting units close in on them, blowing their stuff up or close combat'ing it down every turn.

Kroot seem the "best" solution to this, and I've enjoyed seeing huge super cheap kroot squads hunker down in cover "going to ground" until they're needed to countercharge something or just simply keep meltaguns more than 6" from your precious vehicles, and to provide cover against most nasty weaponry like that for your precious suits.

For the crisis suits, might I recommend flamers instead of the TA. It's not really necessary, and that gives you extra "oshit" support against hordier close combaty kinda threats, without really harming your firepower. You're still 75% accurate with those missile pods, and you'll save a few kroot hounds in points IIRC.

Three broad sides with all those upgrades is silly. What's more, you've got them jammed into 2 units instead of 3, harming your fire spread. Split down to 3 pairs of 2 plane jane BASS for 160 points a pair, and you've got just as much anti vehicle poppage and threat, with far less care if a squadron of vendettas turns the attention of some lascannons their way (for example). I can't tell you the # of times I've scooted onto the board, and overlayed enough lascannon shots into a juicy broadside unit like that to force them to allocate to the suits despite the shield drones. I still don't buy into that. If you're not taking hammerheads, trio out the suits into treble BASS pairs.


Tau need to be min-maxed, and spread out. You're not quite there yet, IMO. Offensive firepower is nothing if you can't take the mauling that you WILL take. It's the same exact thing as guard lists that are too bulked up by unit.

All your bodyguards/hqcrises can also probably be split down to flamer/TLMP, and be just about as effective with far less points expenditure.

Use the saved points to bulk up a few big kroot/kroot-hound squads ... they're a big portion of what keeps Tau competitive when gunlining in this edition. And screw the relay, by the way ... it just encourages you to do silly things like stay off the board all game while a Grey Knight charges across it ... ahem Littleton.

[paidinfull]

Having not played much in 5th, it's hard for me to dispute most of the points.

BASS @ 160
I'd been thinking about this a bit. I'm willing to give it a shot, though in previous editions where you didn't see 5x Lascannon hits from one unit the 40 pt investment really paid for it's points. 20pts for an ablative ID wound? not a bad deal. If I do, it will in all likelihood run them @ 170 so that they can split fire and I can allocate multiple ID if necessary.

Deathrain w/ TA or Flamer
I'm inclined to agree with you on that as well. 75% vs 89% isn't a huge buff, but the drop in points (18pts per squad) is significant as well as the versatility.

In regards to medium ranged threats:
This is in part why I have taken Pathfinders in my "competitive" list. They are the cheapest means for improving kills when you need them. Its a school of thought that's counter to how you, Mike, make a build, of which I'm well aware, and it is certainly much more delicate. In the past, how I have traditionally dealt with issues of medium threats is to force my opponent to commit, ignore a substantial portion of their army, and focus as much fire into one "lit" unit until they are wiped out. It's also a reason why I prefer the FireKnife build over most. BS5 double tapping Plasma was pretty much required to address those issues.

Positional Relay:
Kick a man why don't you? :)
@15pts it definitely has it's uses in the lists I've included it. I don't particularly care for the trickle denial effect but in the All Suits, All the Time list, I will pretty much need to play that game in order for it to be effective. In most lists it's to improve my chances of getting the Outflanking Kroot on Turn 2.

I'm going to make some copies of the lists and see what I can milk by shaving points.

[MVB]

A couple of quick follow-up notes ..

1) Splitting broadsides is a bad idea. That's when you split at a land raider and a rhino, hot both, and roll a 3 to pen the land raider and a 6 to pen the rhino. It's not like you can fire one, then the other. You have to declare WHEN you fire. I just think it invites overextending the odds and ending up whiffing altogether. Take reliability, where you get that 3 and 6 on the same target, and pen either way.


2) For "wiping out" units you need more threats, is all. This is why I encourage getting more units by dropping points off the crisis suits, splitting the broadsides into a trio of squads, etc. The worst thing that can happen is making the choice between firing a big nasty unit at a single marine or two that's close to your lines, or killing something far more threatening that's further back. Kroot are fantastic at this, being able to provide a "bodywall" for your army at a MEGA cheap cost, esp. in this cover-heavy edition, so even if they're "to ground" you don't have to worry about those marines charging and tying up or killing your crisis suit firepower ... *and* they can also rapid fire or charge kill those survivors en masse. So when things start splitting down and you're popping transports and such but trickling leftovers of marines or Orks or the like are racing at your lines, big cheap kroot squads are your balm-all for dealing with them, while keeping the bigger guns of the suits aimed squarely at the more optimum targets.

Hope that makes sense, but it's in line w/ my discussion w/ Ryan in the shoutbox the other day.

When you don't have those big close combat units, *or* large numbers of small arms fire units, you can't effectively deal with armies as a ranged gunline in 5th edition, b/c singular survivors will sneak up and totally change your program, rendering the destruction of their transport and *most* of their squad in earlier turns utterly moot.






Example for the sake of it ...
I played Mark Ferek's Tau the other day, and he set up his crisis suit line / hammerheads / skyrays / broadsides / etc. properly, along the back board, but then outflanked his kroot, instead of making a nice line of them in front of the army. This allowed me to race up, drop all my vets out, and start lighting him up with melta. All his return fire certainly did a number to the vet squads, but without the ability to mass charge all of the survivors, a bunch of meltaguns and sarges were what was left, and that's all it took to easily finish the job on him. In short, cheapen up your stuff so it's more barebones ... twin-linkage inherent to suit missile pods and railguns takes care of the reliable kill rates for you all by itself. Spend every free point you can on big bubbly kroot squads, and screw the outflanking. Keep 'em covered with the way you deploy, and you basically eliminate any possible threat. Your whole army is covered, you can outshoot things that try to dance, and nobody can "get into you" with close combat in any kind of safe way. Bingo, solution.

/blah blah

[paidinfull]

So I've made revisions that I think make the lists more stream lined


It's Dark out Der!
4x S10 AP1
5x S8 (melta)
6x S6 AP3 (pinning)
103x S5 (36x pinning)
20x S4
5x ML

HQ
Shadowsun 1x - 175
2x SD, 1x CD, 2x FB

TROOPS
Fire Warrior 6x - 60

Kroot 10x - 124
9x Kroot Hounds
Kroot 10x - 130
10x Kroot Hounds

ELITES
Stealth Team 6x - 337
TLDR, HWTL, BK, Targeting Array, Markerlight, Fusion Blaster, 12x GD
Stealth Team 6x - 337
TLDR, HWTL, BK, Targeting Array, Markerlight, Fusion Blaster, 12x GD
Stealth Team 6x - 337
TLDR, HWTL, BK, Targeting Array, Markerlight, Fusion Blaster, 12x GD

HEAVY
Sniper Team 2x -160
6x SnD
Broadsides 2x - 170
TLDR, HWTL, A.S.S
Broadsides 2x - 170
TLDR, HWTL, A.S.S

112 Models
2000 Points
3 Scoring Units
11KP



Mech Tau
3xS10 AP1
3xS8 (melta)
12xS7 TL
6x S6 AP2
65x S5
20x S4
6x Flamer Template
8x ML

HQ
Shas' O 1x - 117
Plasma, Fusion Blaster, MT, BK

TROOPS
Fire Warrior 6x - 60

Fire Warrior 6x - 60

Fire Warrior 6x - 60

Kroot 10x - 130
10x Kroot Hounds
Kroot 10x - 130
10x Kroot Hounds

Devil Fish 1x - 120
Disruption Pod, Multi-Tracker, SMS, TA
Devil Fish 1x - 120
Disruption Pod, Multi-Tracker, SMS, TA

FAST
Path Finders 8x - 96

Devil Fish 1x - 120
Disruption Pod, Multi-Tracker, SMS, TA

ELITES
Crisis 3x - 186
Plasma, Fusion Blaster, Multi
Crisis 3x - 151
TL w/ BK TL Missile Pod, Flamer
Crisis 3x - 151
TL w/ BK TL Missile Pod, Flamer

HEAVY
Hammer 1x - 165
Railgun, Multi-Tracker, Burst Cannon, Disruption Pod
Hammer 1x - 165
Railgun, Multi-Tracker, Burst Cannon, Disruption Pod
Hammer 1x - 165
Railgun, Multi-Tracker, Burst Cannon, Disruption Pod

82 models
1996 Points
5 Scoring Units
16KP

Gundum Rine.
9xS10 AP1
14xS7
3x TL S6 AP2
107x S5
12x ML

HQ
Shas'el 1x - 80
BC + Missile Pod, Target Lock, HWMT

Ethereal 1x - 50

TROOPS
Fire Warrior 10x - 110
Ui
Fire Warrior 10x - 110
Ui
Fire Warrior 10x - 110
Ui
Fire Warrior 10x - 110
Ui

ELITES
Crisis 3x - 160
TL w/ BK BC + Missile Pod, MT
Crisis 3x - 160
TL w/ BK BC + Missile Pod, MT

FAST
Path Finders 6x - 72
Path Finders 6x - 72

Devil Fish 1x - 85
DP
Devil Fish 1x - 85
DP

HEAVY
Broadsides 3x - 265
TLDR, BK, TL PG, HWTL, 3x A.S.S, 2x SMS
Broadsides 3x - 265
TLDR, BK, TL PG, HWTL, 3x A.S.S, 2x SMS
Broadsides 3x - 265
TLDR, BK, TL PG, HWTL, 3x A.S.S, 2x SMS

71 Models
1999 Points

[Crom]

ugh, what a terrible day. My car dies, thought it was a battery problem. I go buy a new battery. Turns out it wasn't the battery... it was the alternator... which i didnt figure out till I was driving home tonight and my car died... AGAIN. Just got home from being towed, and i rode in the truck with a guy named Mack, who has been a tow truck drive for far too long, and loves to talk about towing cars (nice guy though)

Now I come home and I am not only seeing silly upsetting things related to Tau, but someone wants to bring up dirty dirty (LUCKYA$$MUTHAFUK1N*#*I#!@%^#@!$^@$%!@^$%^#%^@#^$*&@#^&DHUGFYG!@Y*&#YR*RY#DEAMONHUNTERS) memories.


Now... where do I begin...

[Crom]

I feel the best way to start out is on Tau Theory of War to help with my list critiquing.

First off, a few points

COMMON MISCONCEPTIONS ABOUT THE TAU
1) "Tau are underpowered in the current rules edition..."
WRONG. L2P...noob

2)they lack reliable ways of dealing with close in threats. I'm not just referring to close combat, per se, but the arrival of large numbers of melta-type toting units close in on them, blowing their stuff up or close combat'ing it down every turn.
WRONG. Tau do not have "traditional" methods of dealing with close up threats. But they have methods just as reliable as any other army in the 40k Universe (it all works by the roll of the dice) Which leads into the next point

3)"Tau cannot fight in CC. And if they do, they lose"
No, they can and should fight in CC sometimes. I can't tell you how often I have watched a tau player screw himself over because he refused to charge into close combat. And they should only lose CC when they are designed to lose. More on this later

4)"Gun Drones off of Devilfish/Hammerheads give up a KP, therefore are bad and should not be taken whenever possible"
If you are running a tau army in 5th edition and you have less KP than your opponent either A) You are playing an army like speedfreaks or DE that also have tons of KP no matter what they do. or B) You are going to lose against this opponent more often than not (assuming he is of equal or similiar skill)

5)And screw the relay, by the way ... it just encourages you to do silly things like stay off the board all game while a Grey Knight charges across it ... ahem Littleton.
LIES. The strategy is sound!


TAU TACTICS
Lets do something crazy and base it off of...gasp! fluff tactics found in the codex

Mont'Ka aka Killing Blow
Anytime you deploy most of your army on the board with little to no reserves, you are running a killing blow style Tau army. In codex terms, "The art of identifying a target of opportunity and attacking it swiftly."

The poster child of Mont'ka Tau lists are Tau Air Cav lists (mechanized... w/e floats your boat)

Mechanized Tau Lists attempt to do something the tau really aren't built for... which is outmaneuvering people.

Yes, that is right, Tau are not the greatest army for outmaneuvering people... imo, Orks are far better at it, marines and guard are just as good at maneuvering as us (if they want to be). All the while Eldar and Dark Eldar run circles around us in maneuverability. So why is Air Cav so effective when played right? simple

Maneuverability DENIAL

Any and every tau list that is Mont'ka absolutely MUST have a plan for movement denial if it is to be successful on an all-comers basis. What does this mean? In 4th edition it was known as Fish of Fury. FoF worked because it allowed teams of firewarriors and crisis suits to pummel enemy forces 12 inches away and then be completely safe from the enemy in the following turn.

It is a common belief that FoF and similiar tactics are dead now with 5th edition. True line of sight destroyed not drawing LoS through enemy models or terrain and what not and was replaced with a cover save. This may be true for most armies that attempted similiar tactics, but not Tau. Why?

Gun Drone walls.

A gun drone wall is when you move your gundrones towards approaching enemy A. if necessary in the shooting phase before you fire at unit A with your important unit you use a gundrone run roll to move them closer towards enemy and to collapse them into an "I" formation. Proceed to unload lots of dice into enemy A, que elevator music.....................................
.................................................. .................................
.................................................. .......
.................................................. .................................
.................................................. .......
.................................................. .................................
Hey you're shooting phase is finally over! :toast: Now in your assault phase you expand your gundrone wall to max coherency directly infront (as in the minimum 1" away) of what is left of the enemy unit. If done right, your important unit is going to be to far away to be charged. Unit A is now screwed. It cannot get to your important unit that just blasted it to hell. It now has to make a choice. Move and go around the stupid drone wall (In aircav lists this should NOT be possible)

stand there and shoot either at the drones... effectively wasting its time and stalling it for a turn, or shooting through the drones and granting a cover save. then if it shot the important unit, it cannot charge the drones. if it shot the drones... well they are probably dead and cannot charge them anyways. Or they ignored important unit and didnt shoot the drones, so they now charge, annihalate the drones, then massacre forward towards important tau unit. You have just bought yourself another turn of shooting! Huzzah!

Going back to our air cav list. The standard Mechanized tau list has something like 3-5 sets of Gun Drones depending on what units they take. that is 3-5 6 inch walls of movement denial that will not give your opponent a cover save (if it matters) and help keep large numbers of fire warriors unmolested by assaults.

Air cav lists are not the only ones capable of pulling off the drone wall. Hybrid lists with piranhas or Pathfinders will have at least 1 set of drones. IMO, a good hybrid list uses all of its FA choice slots, either with pathfinders, gun drone squadrons, or piranhas that carry gundrones. USE THEM and they will help you win with static lists.

Using this highly underated tau unit allows you to not rely so heavily on Kroot "Speedbumps" and instead use those Kroot as "counterattack" units, where they are far more effective.

DRONES VS. SMS ON DEVILFISH/HAMMERHEADS
Chris has decided on SMS'ing all of his devilfish, this is both good and bad depending on the purpose of these tanks. When you Take a SMS on a devilfish, you are no longer trying to be a Troop delivery system, but instead become a medium anti-infantry battle tank that also carries troops.

I feel like this is something that must go on a case by case basis, but the decision needs to be made based on the role you want your tank to fill. Do you want more firepower? Or do you want to protect your cargo? Tau need every unit in their list to have a purpose and to specialize in that purpose, this is a tough call that people need to make and playtest on their own.

LIST BUILDING FOR MONT'KA
Once you accept these facts, you need to look at your list and ask yourself, "How many of these units can I afford to lose?" Once you have answered this question, then ask yourself, "How many of these units can i NOT afford to lose?" If you answered yes for any unit when you asked yourself the second question; then your Tau army has lost before it has even hit the field. Why?

When you are playing a Tau army that is not making extensive use of the positional relay, you are going to have your heavy hitters exposed. In 5th edition with true line of sight, it is very hard to even do the old hide crisis suits behind devilfish trick, let alone other units in your army such as broadsides, hammerheads, and pathfinders. You need to build multipurpose redundancies into your army as much as possible. This does not necesasrily mean, spam hammerheads or broadsides with plasma or TL Missile Pods with flamers. Tau do not have the versatility of fire that the imperial guard do. They can't get mass amounts of str 10 AP1 large blasts AND lots and lots of of anti tank AND lots and lots of high volume fire power. Tau have to think more like Eldar when picking their weapons. Yes, you need hammerheads, but how many? 1? 2? none? You have to design an army list that can cover ALL of the specific types of threats. ie: Infantry, Monstrous Creatures, Tanks, Heavy Infantry, and bikes/beasts. However you need to be able to do this from Multiple angles. Your hammerheads are anti INFANTRY but can be packup heavy tank hunters (or IC poppers), Broadsides are heavy Infantry and Heavy Tanks but can be made to be better at killing heavy infantry or backup Infantry killers. Crisis suits with TL Missile pods are tank busters and Monstrous Creature hunters but can be backup infantry hunters as well. change their weapons, now you have dedicated infantry killers. or you have dedicated heavy infantry killers with backup heavy tank punch.


I am going to break myself off here, since I am now past the point of being tired. I will go back and look/edit this in the morning for clarity and what not (maybe) but until then I think I started to get a few points across (hopefully) or gave ya some things to think about. feel free to bounce questions/criticism around before i get back into finishing this section and then the second section for tau lists. although... Kayoun is pretty much talking about how to play ninja tau to varying degrees.

w/e gnite

[MVB]

A quick note re: #2, perhaps for edit purposes.

The Tau in his builds don't have the capacity (or didn't) to "finish" stragglers in close that would otherwise threaten him. You have to use those nontraditional ways you are referring to to "finish" the melta-toting or power klaw toting stragglers close in, so that your bigger guns can continue to "break" higher priority targets. Without any of those small "nontraditional solutions" in a build, you're going to lose not b/c you are underpowered, but because (like with a low KP guard army) surviving meltaguns will kill your tanks, and surviving power klaws / marines / etc. will get stuck with and/or kill your crisis suits.

[MVB]

My own Tau musings ... vehicle free (lol?)

Shas'el w/ Multi-Tracker, Twin-Linked Fusion Blasters, Missile Pod - 85 points

6 Stealth Suits w/ 2 Fusion Blasters - 190 points
6 Stealth Suits w/ 2 Fusion Blasters - 190 points
6 Stealth Suits w/ 2 Fusion Blasters - 190 points

12 Fire Warriors - 120 points
12 Fire Warriors - 120 points
12 Fire Warriors - 120 points
12 Fire Warriors - 120 points
12 Fire Warriors - 120 points
Kroot Shaper, 19 Kroot, 12 Kroo Hound, 3 Krootox Riders - 343 points

2 BASS - 160 points
2 BASS - 160 points
1 BASS - 80 points

Total comes out to an army with 4 squads that *can* deep strike w/ meltaspam to deal with hard backboard threats if the BASS can't handle them, or can stay back and fire missile pods / burst cannons and "threaten" anyone who gets too close with land raiders and the like. Meanwhile the army can chuck out 60+ s5 shots / turn from the safety of backboard cover, and can cover themselves from any unwanted assaulters with a massive kroot block that can pretty easily get cover, stretch across whatever front is required, and go to ground until combat comes its way.

95 scoring models
13 killpoints
1998 pts

[paidinfull]

Vehicle free works... the only reason why a few of my lists had 2x Devil fish is because they were mandatory on the Pathfinders.

Hmmm some pretty big issues with your list there based on your logic.

You really only have 1x reliable DS unit for Back field AT, which is your Shas'el @ TL BS4

6x BS3 Meltaguns DSing... doesn't really work out in practice, and in worse case scenario, you've just lost a 184(not 190) squad. You either will need the scatter reroll from the pathfinder fish or a higher BS via wargear / marker lights

Outside of that, I know you're thinking 12x S5 shots + 2x S8 shots... but that few shots from the stealth team won't do much without the benefit of Marker lights or improved Ballistic Skill. You're looking at 4, maybe 5 if you're lucky, wounds against a T4 unit. Add a 3+ or Cover save, and even tripling that number of wounds is still only 6 casualties. Sure you have your 60x S5 backing you up for what, 20x wounds to 6x casualties? Assuming all 5x squads are in range.

The kroot block is huge but at a relatively low LD 8, I think is more of a risk than anything else. I would recommend dropping the Shaper all together and split the block up. Drop a unit of FW to do this. It's a lot of points soaked into a pretty pewp unit @ that size.

I personally feel your list is lacking in a significant amount of punch.
Something to note, that while the majority of Tau stuff is BS3, there are a lot of means at their disposal to improve BS. Marker lights, twin-linking and targeting arrays are your means for ensuring you hit hard and you definitely need to hit hard in this edition. The reason why marker lights are important is that they are force multipliers. Yes you spent 48pts on 4 models who aren't doing squat but shooting ML. Take that 24pts and spread it across 2x squads with 18-24 shots and you manage a few more wounds. Not a lot but some.

I tweaked the points a bit to try and stick with your current list. I'm still not crazy about it but I think your main force is the same.

Shas' El 1x - 85
TL Fusion Blaster, MP, MT

Shas' El 1x - 85
TL Fusion Blaster, MP, MT

TROOPS
Fire Warrior 10x - 100
Fire Warrior 10x - 100
Fire Warrior 10x - 100
Fire Warrior 10x - 100

Kroot 22x - 200
10x Kroot, 10x Kroot Hounds, 2x Ox
Kroot 22x - 200
10x Kroot, 10x Kroot Hounds, 2x Ox

ELITES
Crisis 3x - 141
TL Missile Pod, Flamer

Stealth 6x - 244
2x Fusion Blaster, 6x +1BS

Stealth 6x - 244
2x Fusion Blaster, 6x +1BS

HEAVY
Broadsides 2x- 160
2x ASS

Broadsides 2x- 160
2x ASS

Broadsides 1x - 80
1x ASS

6x Scoring Units
84x Scoring Models
1999 Total Points
14x KP

MINE
5x S10 AP 1
2x S8 Melta @BS4 TL
4x S8 Melta @BS4
4x S7 @BS4
4x S7 @BS3 @2x Target
12x S7 @BS3 TL
40x S5 @30"
24x S5 @18" @BS4
20x S5 @24" (probably won't ever fire)
20xS4 @2x Target
3x Flamer Template

VS

YOURS
5x S10 AP 1
1x S8 Melta @BS 4 TL
6x S8 Melta @BS3
2x S7 @BS4
6x S7 @BS3 @1x Target
60x S5 @30"
36x S5 @18" @BS3
20x S5 @24" (probably won't ever fire)
20xS4 @1x Target

[MVB]

Interesting.

My own $.02 is that I can't stand marker lights. They don't work for shit at the cost and investiture against the lists I've played in the past, and I've watched player after player go all wonky over them. You also have to buy a devilfish with those marker lights, so it's not as cheap as promised.

Either way, they're cool but not game breaking, unless you're going up against people that invest too many points in single targets, I suppose.

[paidinfull]

Honestly, the fact that you dislike marker light design so much is enough of a reason for you to simply just not play Tau.

As it currently stands in 5th Edition, pathfinders are the cheapest means for getting marker lights in a list. This is because you are able to use that transport for other means, however, this does preclude most static builds and forces more of a mech/hybrid build. I wrote an article a while back on ATT about the implications of Marker Lights vs Twin Linking vs Targeting Arrays @ Cost. Ultimately the force multiplier of Marker Lights is greater per point than just improving your shooting at a flat 10 points, when you compare the cost of the basic pathfinder. The other upgrades for marker lights as I've listed below aren't cost effective in the least.

The fact remains that pathfinder marker lights are the cheapest way to improve the overall shooting power of your army. Like IG in the past however, if you were able to take out the HQ command squads, and take out the marker lights it was much easier to beat a Tau army.

When you look at the marker light system, it is currently destined to fail.
10pts for a sgt in a squad
10pts to equip them with a single marker light
12pts for a single Pathfinder
30pts to attach a single Marker Drone
80pts to take a single BS4 marker light with 3x S6 AP3 Rail rifles
125pts to take 2x BS3 marker lights on a AV13 chassis w/ 6x Seeker Missiles

When you look at the base cost of a marker light @ 10pts it's absurd. In fact the price is actually anywhere from 15 - 20pts as you need to have access to the armory in order to take one. Even giving options for Marker lights to squads in the form of the Marker drone is stupid as you are still comparing 35pts for 1x Marker light vs 36pts for 3x Marker Lights.

The Tau race is built around some amazing and incredibly appealing concepts.
- Combined Arms, multiple weapon systems and supporting units
- High Level Technology, better overall weapons
- Hit & Run tactics IE Jump Shoot Jump
- For the Greater Good, so multiple races within one
- Marker Light Technology, IE Improve Shooting, Reduce Cover, Suppress Easier, Call in Missile Strikes

Of the 3 tournaments I have won with Tau, each list has always had the same make up. Outside of the first tournament where I only had 2x Hammerheads, I always took a minimum of 4x Railguns and 12x Marker Lights. There is a large contingency of players who don't feel the army needs the system, instead opting for permanently improving BS via Targeting Arrays or Twin-linking their weapon systems where possible.

This is all fine and good, but isn't exactly what the race was designed for, which IMO was to have a dependency on the Marker Light system to be more tactically flexible. Granted, that design was poorly executed as it inherently creates a dependency on a single unit and now vehicles are forced into your list in a more Hybrid build. Unfortunately, as it stands it's very similar to taking CCS simply for the purpose of giving Orders.