A prime example of what the prison system SHOULD be doing.

[Blacksand]

Prison reform is one of the issues that puts a burr in my blanket, so to speak.
I've been a longtime advocate of a harsher jail system that actually punishes the prisoner, and this is nothing if not a good start.


For those of you who are unaware:

Arizona Sheriff Joe Arpaio who created the "tent city jail":

has jail meals down to 40 cents a serving and charges the inmates for them.

He stopped smoking and porno magazines in the jails. Took away their weights. Cut off all but "G" movies.

He started chain gangs so the inmates could do free work on county and city
projects.

Then he started chain gangs for women so he wouldn't get sued for discrimination.

He took away cable TV until he found out there was a federal court order
that required cable TV for jails. So he hooked up the cable TV again
and only let in the Disney channel and the weather channel.

When asked why the weather channel he replied, so they will know how
hot it's gonna be while they are working on my chain gangs.

He cut off coffee since it has zero nutritional value.

When the inmates complained, he told them, "This isn't the Ritz/Carlton. If
you don't like it, don't come back."

He bought Newt Gingrich' lecture series on videotape that he pipes into
the jails.

When asked by a reporter if he had any lecture series by a Democrat, he
replied that a democratic lecture series might explain why a lot of the
inmates were in his jails in the first place.

More on the Arizona Sheriff:

With temperatures being even hotter than usual in Phoenix (116 degrees
just set a new record), the Associated Press reports: About 2,000 inmates
living in a barbed-wire-surrounded tent encampment at the Maricopa County Jail have been given permission to strip down to their government-issued pink
boxer shorts.
On Wednesday, hundreds of men wearing boxers were either curled up on
their bunk beds or chatted in the tents, which reached 138 degrees inside the
week before.

Many were also swathed in wet, pink towels as sweat collected on their
chests and dripped down to their pink socks.

"It feels like we are in a furnace," said James Zanzot, an inmate who
has lived in the tents for over a year. "It's inhumane."

Joe Arpaio, the tough-guy sheriff who created the tent city and long
ago started making his prisoners wear pink, and eat bologna sandwiches, is
not one bit sympathetic He said Wednesday that he told all of the inmates:
"It's 120 degrees in Iraq and our soldiers are living in tents too, and they
have to wear full battle gear, but they didn't commit any crimes, so shut
your damned mouths!"

[laserflip]

one problem with that, black...the soldiers volunteered to be put in that position, the prisoners didnt. and dont gimme that "they asked for it" crap, because you would be VERY HARD PRESSED to convince me that even 50% of those in the prison system were guilty. how many of you have ever been convicted of something you were totally innocent of? I know I have. while i consider myself more republican than democrat in many ways, I realize that our justice system is horribly faulty and inaccurate, putting many of the innocent people behind bars. why is martha stewart in jail and OJ simpson not? Because hes a coon, and coons get special privileges. but nowadays, hey, if your 5 year old daughter goes to kintergarten and says the word gun she gets carted off to jail. fuck that. i cant wait till sherrif joe gonzales or whatever his name is goes to prison for something he didnt even do and gets to eat fucking bologna sandwiches. mexicans.

[DrunkenUno]

I agree with both of you. The excessive heat is a cruel and unusual punishment.

However, the rest of the changes look pretty good. But I think such a prison system should only be for maximum security inmates... I mean, a guy who got caught with a bag of pot or a DUI guy ro something shouldnt be in the same conditions as a rapist or murderer.

[Blacksand]

Laser - the prisoners are there because they committed a crime. Comitting a crime is a voluntary act. Don't give me the only innocent people go to jail crap, either. They were convicted and that's enough proof for me. Sure the justice system isn't perfect; mistakes will always be made, but it's a damn sight better than a bullet in the head, no?

The fact of the matter is these people are not being coddled and treated nicely, they are being punished and that is what needs to happen. Sure if we go around cutting off people's hands for stealing, the crime rate would drop, but we're a civilised nation.

As for your statement that blacks get special privledges in the justice system, explain to my why 1 out of every 3 black men are in some form of the prison system, wether it be prison or parole, or mere probation? Simpson got off because the DA and police bungled the case and he had a team of -very- good lawyers. Nothing more, nothing less. And he was -still- found liable and responsible for the killings in civil court. You want to ask a black man about special treatment by the police, ask Rodney King (even though I still feel it was right that the officers were found not guilty) or the man in NY who was shot 32 times for reaching for his wallet.

[Shackled Phoenix]

I totally agree with you sand, it's nice to see someone stopping prison from being a vacation. In a recent study in detroit, they found that 1 out of every 6 people being sent to jail in detroit commited the crime because prison was better than living on the street.

I do agree with drunken that the 138 degree heat is too harsh though, because it can have severe effects on the physical health of the inmates.

Cable TV in prison is bullshit. *I* don't even have fucking cable TV and i'm a "mostly" law abiding citizen.

i'd like to know where you get the idea half the people in prison are innocent flip? and you used martha stewart to represent that fact? she WAS guilty, if anything i'd damn sure say she got off easy. What have you been convicted for that you were innocent for? and how long were you in jail?

i'll admit, our law system has it's flaws, i know a guy who's in 45 days of prison because he couldn't afford a rehab drug anymore as a condition to his probation. but you're number of half is way off, and besides, the conditions this sheriff has enforced (with the exception of the heat, which i have stated my objection too) isn't going to kill an innocent person. Whether my time in jail is easy going, or harsh, it would have the same afteraffect on my life.

besides, i don't want to pay my hard earned money to taxes, only to have some of it go to give something i DON'T have, to a guy who woulda stolen my wallet, mugged me, molested me, or even killed me. .|.. that.

Right on blacksand, and maybe if we introduced more prisons with similar conditions, maybe we might actually solve the prison overcrowding problem.

[Blacksand]

But somehow I think you'd thrive under conditions like that, Ques..

Meh, back to the topic.

I don't think the high temperature was inhumane at all, it is a (mostly) outdoors facility to begin with. Again, those people are there to be punished and being uncomfortable with the heat is nothing if not punishment. I'm sure the inmates were provided with adequate water to keep hydrated, ect. Don't blame weather phenomena on the Sheriff, he can't control such things and it's simply something to be endured. He even made special concessions for them, letting them strip down et al..

Now, if he'd been running the chain gangs that day .. I'd be more inclined to agree to the cruel and unusual argument.

[Karmashock]

I'd go for this system or pelican bay (cali maximum security... state of the art)... both of those are fine with me.

[/<yle]

Cept pelican bay sit on their asses all day. these guys are in chain gangs, doing real work.

[Karmashock]

all by themselves... in a room with white walls... all the books and reading material they could want... no tv... no human contact.


the rooms are perfectly air conditioned...

they can sit in the white box all alone or sweat in the sun.

[Foree]

Holy fucking christ

Don't complain about your system, if you were ever in Poland you would be astonished how the law defends the criminals and how it works for victims. Here, if I used a knife to wound some fucker, trying to steal my property, and got him, *I* would be the perpetrator and he would be the victim.

Not to mention that you get busted and thrown to jail for possesion of small quantities of drugs (means you are not a drug dealer), but you are immune to law when you sit in the parlament and wound some *lower-class* citizen in a car accident.

Our prison are HOTELS. I was once on a visit to one with my class, and saw how the captives lived. Well, some guy who killed 2 persons lived with a robber and a guy who was speeding. Their cell had TV, tables, power and they were allowed to keep almost what they wanted in it. Insane.


This is how fucked this country is.

[Critta]

I'd agree with a couple of people in this thread, prison isn't an adequate punishment and does not serve as a suitable deterrent to crime.

I know someone who have been in for minor drug offence, their experience was that they went in knowing a little bit about dealing pot, they came out after spending a couple of years surrounded by "proper" criminals and by the time they left, they had an official HND in business (I wonder what that got used for) as well as knowledge (and contact details) for dealing a lot more than pot, how to break into a car, how to hotwire a car, good money laundering practices etc.

In his words, prison is "criminal school", that treat you well, they encourage you to gain qualifications and you are surrounded by people who on the whole know an awful lot about breaking the law.

This may have just been his experience, however I find that quite unlikely.

[Karmashock]

yeah... we can shoot people if they break into our homes... we just can't shoot them in the back.


That's why I say "BOO" real loud, before shooting them in the face. :D

In his words, prison is "criminal school", that treat you well, they encourage you to gain qualifications and you are surrounded by people who on the whole know an awful lot about breaking the law.

This may have just been his experience, however I find that quite unlikely.
there is a great deal of evidence that this is the way prison often works.

[shutupandshave]

That's why I say "BOO" real loud, before shooting them in the face.
You've shot people in the face?

..........

[Karmashock]

You've shot people in the face?
every day.

[shutupandshave]

That explains a lot about you.

[Tank0]

in scandinavian countries they are sending minor criminals ( no violent crime ) to farmers on remote locations under electronic surveillance . They are forced to work with the family for free for the lenght of their sentence . The family gets money to cover the costs and to make it worth it . I admit the candidates are selected carefully but the majority of prisoners learn to do a honoust days work , they grow a bond with the family ( which they never knew sometimes ) and never commit a crime again.

murderers , rapist , pedo's , etc should be put away .

I am against the deathpenalty , i believe in reincarnation so death isnt a punishment t me . punish them here first let dead be a release .

the sheriffs thing sounds good but i would prefer the white rooms , no contact , no daylight ....
hell try medicines and experimental foods on them for my part . As an added bonus i would add annoying music 24/7 and checks ever 15 minutes . The guards should be offered the best food for lunch in full sight of the inmates and they have to make sure that everybody smells it by announcing it and slowly transporting it to the guards quarters .Bright light in their cells ( sun on noon ) 24/7 for security reasons . no paper , no pens , hell not even crayons .

i would add the option for inmates to commit suicide through poison if they have enough of serving a life sentence that way , afterall i am not a sadist ;)

i know there are many innocent people in the prisonsystem but DNA research has given us a sure way to know now and CSI and other investigation techniques are becoming very reliable .

here in belgium the prison are criminal schools , the only unconvenient thing is the crowding ( 4 for a cell of 2 ) , they have daily walks in open air , playstation 2 , cellphones are only now being jammed in prisons and smuggling a cellphone in is easy , 65% of prisoners are tested positive for drugs , artists we have to pay big euro's to see are playing in prisons , they have marrital visits every month ( yes in a private room ), not to mention to right to view your case when the victims family can 't .

i respect every living being but the criminals are better off then honoust people .3 meals a day , heating , warm bed , warm water shower etc ....

no wonder they have all become asocial . people here volunteer to sit out someone else's sentence bcause they don t bother to check the fingerprints or DNA overhere , you can buy yourself free.

last year two people escaped from prison by simply changing clothes with their brother ( who lloked similar ) and walking out the door . a few days later the brother admits and he gets a light punishment who he never has to sit because of the cellshortage . FUBAR i tell ya

[Karmashock]

That explains a lot about you.
ask a stupid question, get a stupid answer... :rolleyes:

[Shackled Phoenix]

4E, why can't i complain? i can't fix your system, and my country can't walk in and take it and change, so why the hell can't i complain about something that CAN be fixed?

And critta bring up a good point, we need to devide our prison systems better. First time offenders with relatively minor offenses, need to be devided away from the more major offenses. Yeah there is SOME, but not near enough devision currently.

As for shooting someone in your house, just make DAMN sure they don't get off your property and it's self defense unless they've got one hell of a case.

sand, as for the heat, i still believe it is extreme as even with proper hydration, at 138 degrees is quite dangerous for heatstroke. I believe in punishing them, not putting them in danger, and while entitled to your oppinions, which i will debate, but never flame you for, i stand on my opinion on this.

oh and no.... being trapped in a tent or working insanely hard labor while wondering if i'm going to die of heatstroke doesn't do anything for me. I'm more interested in the short term punishments of the dark ages.

[JADezimar]

Laserflip
one problem with that, black...the soldiers volunteered to be put in that position, the prisoners didnt.

Do you not think that maybe the prisoners, volunteered by committing a crime?
Drunk
I mean, a guy who got caught with a bag of pot or a DUI guy ro something shouldnt be in the same conditions as a rapist or murderer.

I agree with that too. Even if we do not go to a harsher system we should lower the penalty on the lesser. For instance why are smotpokers in prison with rapists? Why are our druggies and people that take something from a store get more time than criminals like rapists?
Pheonix
As for shooting someone in your house, just make DAMN sure they don't get off your property and it's self defense unless they've got one hell of a case.

You might want to check that law more. It can be different in each state, but most commonly they have to be in your house, not just on your land. Some freak cases have come out the home owner getting into trouble do to not being able to prove he felt it was truly self defense. Like Karma says, make sure you absolutely do not shoot them in the back. (Even after taking that precaution, and the person survives your uber screwed in civil court)

[Blacksand]

Joking, Ques. Joking.

I agree on the drug offender issues, honestly. I've been an advocate of drug education and reform instead of mere punishment for quite a while. The archaic and quite frankly, far too harsh penalties for drug use in this country continue to astound me.

I'm not going to go into further details on that at the moment, save one. Government controlled points of sale and taxation on weed would not only save government money trying to uphold a basically unenforcable law, but make far more. And that's a hard argument to deny. Age restricted sale, the same way the sales of cigerettes and alchohol are age restricted. Government subsidized(sp?) farms, and agressive education programs designed to reduce the glamour of the drug. The existing driving under the influence laws, which do apply to drug usage, I see no reason to change at present.

[laserflip]

They were convicted and that's enough proof for me.
it is that statement that makes you foolish, and..

Sure the justice system isn't perfect; mistakes will always be made
it is statements like those that make the judicial system as problematic as it is. these types of opinions piss me off as cool as you are blacksand. it is my opinion that if a judicial system cannot be 100% perfect in EVERY case as to innocence or guilt, it does not have the right to impose pentalties.

and you have NO RIGHT TO ARGUE WITH THIS until to come back after doing time for something you didnt do. after that happens, then come talk to me. you will feel differently i assure you.

[Blacksand]

3x Terroristic threats, 1 count disruption of a public school, resisting arrest, felony assault, assaulting a police officer, attempting to evade.

All of that because someone called a school and said they were planning to blow the school up, and then they said they were me. Everything was -eventually- dropped except the resisting arrest and attempting to evade. Seven months until trial, and I couldn't afford bail. And then I still did six more months after with a year of probation as my sentence. Don't talk to me of false imprisonment, Laser. I -have- been there. It's still better than any other system around.

The best part, and the one I'm bitter about? The guy that actually made the call got off with 6 months probation and a fine.

[Shackled Phoenix]

So basically, until our court cases are 100%, murderers and rapists should walk the streets because "we've been wrong before?"

blacksand: i dunno, i see your point in the legalizing marijuana, but at the same time, we have enough problems with just alchohol, and weed fucks your brain up 10x more than just being drunk.

I've remained weed free my entire life, simply because i used to hang around alotta people that smoked it, and seeing them, after just a single blunt, It didn't look cool, the looked just fucking stupid, and did some of the most, idiotic, moronic things i've ever seen.

we've got enough people killed by drunk drivers, i'd hate to see what people could do if they could legally get high.

Like i said, i do see your point, and some of the advantages in it...
but i dunno, maybe just making smoking it in your home less of a deal, and making DUI's More of a big deal.

[Karmashock]

I think our legal system is only messed up in that its too letigious and its too easy to hurt people just by dragging them into court... i mean, if you did nothing wrong then you're still out all that time and the legal bills... which could well exceed what you were being fined or sued for.

I think the english court system is superior in this respect... and you know I'm loath to point another country for inspiration, but they do it better.

[JADezimar]

I've remained weed free my entire life, simply because i used to hang around alotta people that smoked it, and seeing them, after just a single blunt, It didn't look cool, the looked just fucking stupid, and did some of the most, idiotic, moronic things i've ever seen.

Id like to start off saying I am weed free. But believe me you look the same goddamn way when your drunk. If you look up studies, some study's suggest alcohol kills more brain cells than marijauna. Alcohol definitely impairs one to make decisions far worse than weed, not to mention impairs the ones vision by far more. If your ok with getting slamned drunk there should be no problem with weed. Try it or learn more about it, before judging it.

we've got enough people killed by drunk drivers, i'd hate to see what people could do if they could legally get high.

And Shackled people are gonna drive high and drive drunk regardless of laws. People will continue to do these "drugs" regardless of laws also. Remember when they did outlaw alcohol? The same things happened with alcohol at the time that goes on with weed now.

[Shackled Phoenix]

You believe weed consumption wouldn't GROW because of it being legalised? you quote prohibition as an example, and guess what, prohibition did cause a large decrease in alchohol consumption. Quite a bit of drinking still went on, but it still wasn't as much as if it were legal.

and you tell me to try it before i speak on it, when you've yourself, stated, you've spent your life weed free.

I write this, on my 3rd beer in the past hour and a half, and i remain nearly unaffected by the alchohol. had even one beer been a blunt instead, i wouldn't even be able to string a couple words together in sentence.

I can't believe you honestly think that weed being illegal doesn't prevent it's use in the slightest.

[JADezimar]

Quite a bit of drinking still went on, but it still wasn't as much as if it were legal.

And how many people were getting in trouble for crime? How many people were going to prison? How many people were dying over prohibition? They legalized it again for a reason.

and you tell me to try it before i speak on it, when you've yourself, stated, you've spent your life weed free.

I have been weed free for 4 years.

I write this, on my 3rd beer in the past hour and a half, and i remain nearly unaffected by the alchohol. had even one beer been a blunt instead, i wouldn't even be able to string a couple words together in sentence.

You cannot make that assumption. 3 Beers for 1 is very little acohol in an hour and a half. 2ndly 1 blunt is a shitload of weed for 1 person to smoke at one time. Thats improper proportions (things are about proportion, too much of anything is bad for you, including water). 3rdly Weed if not abused will open the mind, Alcohol will close it.

I can't believe you honestly think that weed being illegal doesn't prevent it's use in the slightest.

I do not think it would prevent it, obviously if I think it should be legal that is not my goal, why does it need to be prevented? My goal is not to prevent its use anymore than that of alcohol. I just personlly feel alcohol is by far a more evil, worse for your body. Above all too many people dying over weed, going to prison for weed for more years than rapists and people that have committed far worse crimes.

[Karmashock]

weed doesn't open the mind any more then a kick to the head. 8-)

[JADezimar]

weed doesn't open the mind any more then a kick to the head.

Ive seen intelligent people go through there lives acting stuipd being dumb, the minute they sit down and pass a blunt around there having intelligent conversations, and thinking about things that are of an intelligent theorists of a level. Its all about proportions. Drink too much alcohol and look what happens? You can drink yourself pasts knowing what you are doing and lose your memory? Just like most people getting stoned, will smoke as much as absolutely possible, people will drink as much as possible.

If you notice people over the age, will generally start drinking less and drinking more maturely and responsibly. This is not always the case, but the novelty starts to wear off and the excitement. When you can hit a bar whenever you want and can buy it whenever you want. I just feel weed will be handled more responsibly. Just like after the legalizaion of prohibition.

[Shackled Phoenix]

I would argue this point which has been argued a nearly infinite amount of times before, but i have beer (not something i often possess, or even care to possess but i'm in a weird mood tonight) and a full CS server... so i'm going to make better use of my time and shoot some terrorists.... or counter terrorists depending on which team auto assign puts me on.

[Karmashock]

I've seen that... it was all gibberish... "oh duuude, I got an idea... why don't they combine pizza and nachos? You can call them pizznachios! I could really go for some pizznachios right about now"... absolute pathetic dreck. I love the guys that write down their little brain storms while they're stoned. Then they come back to read it when they've come down and all they find is a page full of chicken scratches or drawings of boobs.

They're not more intelligent, they've just lost the ability to tell they're being stupid. Everything is funny and everything is brilliant. When in fact, it’s all vague ramblings that are only amusing in the same way that drunk people are amusing.

Love and peace, Karmashock.

[JADezimar]

I have seen that too with alcohol or weed. I am not claiming weed is good for you. I am not claiming its a wonder drug. But it is no worse than alcohol.

[Karmashock]

you were saying it 'opened your mind'... which unless you mean so that your brain falls out, I'd have to disagree. As to the rest, it's a different sort of drug and has different side effects.


My vote is that it stays illegal. Disagree? Out vote me in the national polls.


Love and peace, Karmashock.

[JADezimar]

o0 yar. I agree to disagree.