[IG] Tank List 2k

[paidinfull]

So the idea is to spam a ton of Chimeras
It's based off a 4th edition list I had a lot of success with.

8x Chimeras
3x Hydras
2x Executioners

HQ
6x Command Squad - 120
Astro, 4x Meltagun
1x Chimera - 55
Multi-laser, Heavy Bolter

TROOPS
10x Veterans - 130
3x Meltaguns, Demo, Meltabombs, Shotguns
1x Chimera - 55
Multi-laser, Heavy Bolter

10x Veterans - 130
3x Meltaguns, Demo, Meltabombs, Shotguns
1x Chimera - 55
Multi-laser, Heavy Bolter

10x Veterans - 130
3x Meltaguns, Demo, Meltabombs, Shotguns
1x Chimera - 55
Multi-laser, Heavy Bolter

5x Platoon Command - 150
Al'Rahem, 3x Plasmagun
1x Chimera - 55
Multi-laser, Heavy Flamer

10x Guardsmen - 75
Plasmagun, Plasma Pistol
1x Chimera - 55
Multi-laser, Heavy Flamer

10x Guardsmen - 75
Plasmagun, Plasma Pistol
1x Chimera - 55
Multi-laser, Heavy Flamer

10x Guardsmen - 75
Plasmagun, Plasma Pistol
1x Chimera - 55
Multi-laser, Heavy Flamer

HEAVY
3x Hydra - 225

2x Executioner - 230
2x Heavy Bolter, 2xPlasma canons

1x Executioner - 230
1x Heavy Bolter, 2xPlasma canons

I honestly think Hydras are under rated. @ 75 pts they are a very good deal for 2x TL Autocannons + HHB.

[flipperray]

IMO a solid list. Drop the demo doctrine, no point if you have 3 meltas even if it was 10pts, but 30pts definitely no way. You can save 90pts right there.

[paidinfull]

Actually I like having 3 S8 AP2 templates in there as I play quite a few chaos players who run lots of Oblitz and or Termies. The templates really add to how nasty the unit is against... MeQ and troop equivalents. I doubt I will ever throw the Demo Charge at a vehicle as it's been nerfed from last edition.

I did however consider something else

Creed isn't necessary in this list.

If I drop him I can take 2x Lascannon Scout Sentinels.
@ 100 pts they are the cheapest mobile platform for 2 lascannons.

[flipperray]

First i was speaking about the meltabombs. Sencond I still dont see the point of the demo in that case. The instances where you are in range are few and far between and even when you find a squad that is somehow not in a rhino or LR you demo and shoot them hopefully not kill yourself, kill some of them, they are fearless, then get assaulted and die. Not the ideal situation. Demo doctrine is 100% overpriced. Drop the sentinles and demo doctrines and get a vet squad with meltas in a valk or vendetta.

[MVB]

Meltabombs are very, very good ... s8+2d6 grenades gives your veterans legitimate chances to kill even walkers in close combat, which is a huge boon

It also makes them immune to tank shock, b/c nobody's going to tank shock a unit that gets a free rear armor 8+2d6 hit that automatically hits, and taht if it fails only kills a vet w/ a lasgun.

Demo's very, very good

If you can afford it in your list, demo doctrine is very, very solid

[paidinfull]

philip you goof.
do you remember how much melta bombs were in previous edition?
Right now they are about 5pts per model
In this instance I am getting them at 3pts a model AND a demo charge to boot.
It's, IMO, the best deal out of the 3, especially since the demo is in addition to their other weapons.

In respects to getting to use the demo charge, I'm afraid I have to disagree with you. The entire list is mechanized, so the way it will play is substantially different from how you would play if you had all Valks or were on foot. I don't expect to disembark from the chimera unless absolutely necessary(12" move to get me in range)... which I'm not sure given the 5 fire point rules why I will need to frequently.

Mike is also right about the walkers. A perfect example is in my game against rhett. He charged them with a War walker, yes they had Krak grenades, and I managed to inflict 1 glance round 1, but had it been a meltabomb, he would have:
1) probably not charged
2) lost the war walker as S8+2D6 crushes AV10-12

I'm already at 19 KP, and I do have the models, but I don't think adding another 2 Scout Sentinels w/ lascannons is what this list needs.

Against MeQs or TeQs I have 1 Large Blast S8 AP2, which will instant kill, and should hopefully yield 3-4 wounds, plus 3x Melta shots 2 wounds, plus the shotguns & laspistol 2.8 wounds, I could theoretically take out a whole squad of MeQ if lucky. The template makes them incredibly good Anti-Troop... I'm surprised you don't like that configuration. On paper it looks amazing. Couple that with mobility and you have a really nasty unit... make that 3.

[paidinfull]

It also makes them immune to tank shock, b/c nobody's going to tank shock a unit that gets a free rear armor 8+2d6 hit that automatically hits, and taht if it fails only kills a vet w/ a lasgun.


It's against front armor for Tank Shock BTW. Tank shock rules supersede the normal HTH against vehicle rules.

[MVB]

My only concern w/ firing out of the Chimeras is that you can't move 12 and fire out of them ... only if you move 6.

That said, it's still useful.

[paidinfull]

My only concern w/ firing out of the Chimeras is that you can't move 12 and fire out of them ... only if you move 6.

That said, it's still useful.

Very true. I will have to do some play testing to see if I need to swap some weapons around. I can always of course move 12" disembark 2" and fire...

[MVB]

Yes, you can always do that, but it incurs some of the risks flip was pointing at.

Now, I don't necessarily agree that those are risks, but it is what it is. At that point, when you're disembarking, valks are actually a better option ... b/c the valks are going to be much more hitty themselves to back up the attacks of the veterans, whereas the chimera is just going to sit there with its weaker armor and slower overall movement.

[flipperray]

I have to disagree with you both, ive ran demo vets. If you see a walker its dead to your meltas, you dont even need to disembark for that. move six melta its face. the demo charge is almost useless on them. If you are in a chimera you are going to move 6 fire out of the chimera or move 12 and disembark and melta. There are minimal situations where you are assaulting a vehicle or being assaulted by a walker. Even when a squad of walkers is a threat, just melta out of the chimera get assaulted be blown out or disembark and then melta again. 2 rounds of vet melta will most of the time destroy walkers. the 90pts could be better spent. Ive ran it, and if you do run it im sure youll come to the same conclusions.

[MVB]

Phil, you've gotta think more outside the box than just single target 40k.

You can't theorycraft everything.

Walkers are great for killing veteran squads b/c the vets just ganked a tank or w/e, and the walkers can't lose charging them. Your meltaguns don't work if you get locked into combat. It's why your veterans are always getting wtfpwned like nobody's business - you leave them open to countercharges after they let fly over and over again, and in the scoring unit heavy world of 40k, you need to do a better job of protecting them. Meltabombs will actually change peoples' tactics against you - they won't tank shock meltabomb vets, and they risk a lot if they charge even dreadnaughts into them, when normally that's an utterly safe bet on both counts.

That said, I've also run demo vets in numerous games so far, just not in my league matches, as you're aware. It's not a bad bet at all, and it's cheap pie high value pie plates.

Splinter and Plank, my fine gambling friend ... you run Straken ... and power fists ... dude! :p Talk about points being better spent elsewhere. Running a fine line between "cool" and cost efficient is important, and if you know how to use your veterans, the demo doctrine is actually a pretty solid points investment, and it's certainly a very efficient way to get some meltabombs. Suddenly getting the opportunity to melta and then charge a leman russ squadron (for example) just got way more lucrative. B/c you aren't going to reliably gank land raiders or russ squadrons or any kind of vehicle squadron with just 3 melta shots. Backing it up with meltabombs really drives home the point.

I don't use it b/c I'd have to lose meltaguns or valkyries to pull it off ... and no, you shouldn't sacrifice meaningful unit purchases to get any of the doctrines, but in a case where his army has what it needs, and he's got enough points for ... a half equipped non-transported vet squad? A couple of crappy sentinels? Those points are actually a decent expenditure.



My "real" issue with the list, honestly, is using plasmaguns on guardsmen. Their accuracy is pretty poor, and you've got a good shot at ganking your own guys ... it's just not healthy policy. Plasma for IG, if you really need it, is best acquired using executioners, or at least veterans so that you're getting the hits in before you gank yourself.

[paidinfull]

True, the cost point is substantially different and while I like the Elysian style I have always loved the Armored Company. Something about having that many APC's and tanks. I essentially get 2 chimeras(6 S6 shots & 2 Hvy Flamers) + 2 Meltaguns for the cost of a Single valk(3x S6 shots & 2x S4 AP5 LBT).

The list is going to have a hard time against multiple AV14 but against everything else I will have plenty of "show stopping" power.

The nice thing about having the cheaper chimeras is that it offers me more unit choices. If I am facing a LR w/ Termies I can send 2+ units of Vets to essentially jump out, pop the LR, then have the other squad(s) wipe the embarked unit.

[paidinfull]

My "real" issue with the list, honestly, is using plasmaguns on guardsmen. Their accuracy is pretty poor, and you've got a good shot at ganking your own guys ... it's just not healthy policy. Plasma for IG, if you really need it, is best acquired using executioners, or at least veterans so that you're getting the hits in before you gank yourself.

I realize you didn't play Guard before... but the Plasma gun is definitely the Guardsmen weapon of choice. It has been since 2nd edition. Las/Plas?

I am fine throwing away a 20pt guardsmen for the prospect of killing 2x 40 pt terminators. The multipliers are totally worth it.

I have not run an Executioner yet, but I do feel the cost is a little prohibitive, plus if I take 1 I will need another as its going to be soaking up a lot of fire on its own.

You know... maybe I drop the Sentinels and upgrade the LRBT...???
That sounds pretty sexy.

[HuronBH]

I definitely thing that Plasmaguns were the weapon of 4th edition, they just made the most sense. However in 5th, I would say the meltagun or even the melta weapon is king. Even when it comes to guardsmen.


-jay

[paidinfull]

Another note I'm not sure either of you are considering...
What if I'm 10" away?
3 shots, and I fail to destroy it?

"Like the Wind"
Shoot then immediately move D6"

If I didn't just disembark I could then theoretically shoot and then assault a vehicle... ensuring I take it out. The demo charge is sorta an added perk.

Anyways I updated the list, dropped Al'Rahem's squad's Plasma Guns, dropped the Sentinels, and then Upgraded the LRBTs to Executioners with Plasma cannons

[paidinfull]

I definitely thing that Plasmaguns were the weapon of 4th edition, they just made the most sense. However in 5th, I would say the meltagun or even the melta weapon is king. Even when it comes to guardsmen.


-jay

You are correct sir. The melta is a great all around weapon but it lacks range, something the Plasma gun has. Also as Mike has pointed out, BS3 puhsux, so having 2 shots increases my odds a great deal.

[flipperray]

Ok Ill try and address several different issues here. First Straken and yarrick together are in the top 10 percentile of assaulting units adding something like that to an army that has 0 elsewhere has its uses. Power fists are 30pts of my list, it is debatable if there is somewhere it could be better spent. I still dont see how me having points that could be better spent disqualifies my argument against demo vets.

Your argument that it makes it harder for walkers to counter assault vets is correct, where i think your logic strays is the fact that vets dieing to walker counterassaults is maybe like 6% of the time or so. Yes you could spend 90pts to make sure you dont get tank shocked but at the same rate you could take camo netting on a hellhound incase that .000434% of the time where its in cover. Its not that meltabombs are not useful, i agree there are situations where they are, its that the situation percentage doesnt justify 1/20th of your army.

[paidinfull]

1/20th is pretty small. B)

Assaulty guard is a fun concept and difficult to pull off, so I applaud your attempts.

There is an aspect that I think Mike and I are seeing but you might not be, or are dismissing it.

"The Meta-game"

A significant part of tournament play is psychological.
Prioritizing targets correctly
Assessing when your dice are bad
Using "threat" to control your opponent

Meltabombs are not always going to be useful. Neither are my shotguns, and again neither are my demo charges.

In this list, however, the Demo doctrine does a few very important things:
Prevents my vets from getting tied up by an AV10 walker for the game.
Gives me a cheap Large Blast Template that is AP2
Ensures I can take out a vehicle in an assault if necessary

[paidinfull]

Dropped a hydra so I could split the Executioners
Dropped a flamer
Added 4x Meltaguns
Added 3x Plasma guns