League FAQ questions

[paidinfull]

Space Wolves Codex.

Storm Shield... C:SW has a description... 4+ only in HTH, but also says see C:SM
Does SGi play it as a 5 pt piece of wargear grants a 3+ INV or only a 4+ INV in HTH?

Power fist... C:SW says it is a 1 hand weapon...
Does SGi play it grants an additional attack in HTH if equipped with another CCW?

Imperial Guard Codex.

Rough Riders + Furious Charge
First time charging, do they get S6 I6 attacks if they have Furious Charge?

Can Orders be given in an opponents turn? (silly I think but just wanted to clarify)

Ork Codex
MOB RULE! (quote)
Ork psychology and morale is directly linked to the number of boyz around them at any given time. An Ork with a trukkload of his mates backing him up is a good sight more confident than one with just his half-wit mate Zog at his heels! Because of this, Ork mobs may always choose to substitute the number of Orks in their mob for their normal leadership value. If an Ork mob numbers 11 or more models, it has the Fearless special rule.

From FAQ
Q. Can a Weirdboy’s Leadership be increased to
more than 10 by the Mob Rule?
A. No, it can be increased, but only up to a
maximum of 10.

Ok, so there is all the Mob Rule! info I can find. My question...

If I Mind War a Painboy, who's base LD is 7, in a squad of 11+... what is his LD?

GENERAL FAQ
Shooting at Skimmers Rule BRBpg71 wrote: A skimmer that is not immobilized and has moved flat out in its last Movement phase counts as obscured (cover save of 4+) when fired at

If I Move Flat-Out during a Scout move with a skimmer do I gain a 4+ Cover save in my opponents shooting phase?

[MVB]

There's a couple of these I can answer off-hand ... and I reserve the right to change my answers in the face of cogent argument :)

1) C:SW Storm Shields grant a 3+ invul save, or a 4+ invul in HtH - whichever you prefer as the owning player. Obviously, people are going to use the 3+ Invul save. It's perfectly legitimate to use the codex to which it refers, especially given it is more recent. That said, since there's also a rule in the SW codex proper ... you could use that too. We'll leave it at "3+ invul save."

2) Power Fist - The BRB retcons power fists as not benefitting from 2nd close combat weapons. I don't have the book in front of me, but I'm quite sure it is referred to as not getting the bonus for reasons OTHER THAN one-handed. That is to say, the Pfist doesn't get bonuses one way or another, not ... "the pfist doesn't get bonuses because it is 2-handed." In fact, the power fist isn't a 2-handed weapon at all ... it's just a "special" close combat weapon akin to Lightning Claws and Thunder Hammers that doesn't grant its benefit to a 2nd ccw by virtue of design. BRB makes this one clear I think.

3) Rough Riders + Furious Charge - yes, first time charging they're operating at S6I6

4) No, orders can't be given in an opponent's turn (yes, silly, and in need of clarification from a higher power)

5) Since it does not just substitute the leadership value for purposes of one or two tests, you're mind warring LD10. The rule does not state that an Ork mob numbering 11 or more models is INSTEAD fearless, only that it is fearless. Since stats with few exceptions can't be raised above 10 by any combinations or rules, the LD caps at 10 by virtue of the rules on stats, and fearless then applies also. Their LD doesn't suddenly revert to normal, b/c the rule for fearless in Mob Rule is not mutually exclusive ... i.e., not "instead."

So, you're Mind Warring LD10.

6) I think a skimmer scouting fast SHOULD get a 4+ cover save, b/c the RAI seems clear ... if it moved fast right before you shot at it, it's harder to hit. That said, RAW trumps and the rule clearly states in its last MOVEMENT phase. Since the Scout move does not occur during a movement phase, and in fact no movement phases have even occurred in that case, no ... no 4+ cover save after scouting (much to my 9 valkyrie list's chagrin)

[MVB]

Good call on starting to ask these questions, Chris.

[paidinfull]

We've had these come a few times and I figured rather than beat our heads against a wall like we have just put them out there and address them quickly.

The downside to the Scout discussion... bikes definitely get cover, but because of wording RAW skimmers don't... counter intuitive.

Cool, we're all on the same page now. B)

[Crom]

Just curious, what bikes get a cover save when scouting?

[paidinfull]

Any bike that turbo boosts while scouting.
Dark Angels Ravenwing bikes
Deff Koptas
Scout bikes

I know there are a few more. The scout move allows a normal move, which includes turboing, so long as you remain 18" away from your opponent at all times, including flying over your enemy.
As a bike if you end your move 18" away, up to 24", you gain a 3+ cover save.

[Crom]

6) I think a skimmer scouting fast SHOULD get a 4+ cover save, b/c the RAI seems clear ... if it moved fast right before you shot at it, it's harder to hit. That said, RAW trumps and the rule clearly states in its last MOVEMENT phase. Since the Scout move does not occur during a movement phase, and in fact no movement phases have even occurred in that case, no ... no 4+ cover save after scouting (much to my 9 valkyrie list's chagrin)

So this is our interpretation of flat out moving VEHICLES and not bikes in the scout phase of DEPLOYMENT, but in fact they are the same

Now Scouting is done outside the normal phases of the game turn sequence (move, shoot, assault) and as Mike stated

Since the Scout move does not occur during a movement phase, and in fact no movement phases have even occurred in that case

Then I feel like you can safely assume that nothing done before the game starts in a movement phase that doesn't exist, can affect a future shooting phase. All you are doing by scouting is changing your deployment a bit to get into a more advantageous position.

A scout move is pretty much the same as a strategic redeployment in Apocalypse, only it happens OUTSIDE the normal game

Unless there is an FAQ I am missing I don't see how someone could claim a cover save for turbo boosting before the game starts, and here is my justification.

The way someone interprets a turbo boosting bike receiving a cover save as described by the WH40K rule book is:

to represent the difficulty of shooting such a fast moving target

Now I can see that by making a SCOUT MOVE why people would interpret that when they are making their scout move, their bikes or deffkoptas or w/e fly 24 inches forward to (insert corny, race specific fluff here)

But then we look at the scouts rule in the WH40k rulebook:

Scouts are used to reconnoiter ahead and are always in the vanguard of the army. TO REPRESENT THIS...

So as soon as your SCOUTS (your bikes or Valkyries or w/e) make their SCOUT MOVE, all they are doing is representing that they have always been in the "Vanguard" of the army.

A Vanguard is defined as: (citation=dictionary.com)

van⋅guard
  /ˈvænˌgɑrd/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [van-gahrd] Show IPA
–noun
1. the foremost division or the front part of an army; advance guard; van.
2. the forefront in any movement, field, activity, or the like.

So your bikes or Valkyries, or Deffkoptas have always been in this forward position, as REPRESENTED by taking your scout move.

It doesn't matter how far you move in your scout move, Or what special movement rule you are taking advantage of in the WH40K Rulebook while scouting. The fact of the matter is:

The unit in question has not moved fast enough to be granted a cover save in the following shooting phase, because the unit has always been in this forward position as REPRESENTED by making a scouting move. In short, Movement done in deployment does not affect the normal turn sequence of the game

Note: This message has not been spellchecked, this message was typed quickly in order to get my message across. Now off to the bank before it closes!

[MVB]

You are correct, that in a "common sense" application, no scout move deserves a cover save.

For better or worse, though, in playing a board game with a set of rules and regulations governing its play, generally we must follow the rules as written in support of the designers' intent.

That said, we are well aware that numerous errors exist across their games, most notably in their newer, non-FAQ'ed publications (i.e. the new Imperial Guard codex). As such, RAW bikes/etc. that turbo boost (not "move fast") get a cover save if they do it in their scout move, but skimmers moving fast do not (weirdly, I admit).

While we could consider going to an RAI on this one, the RAW is easy to figure out if you follow the brainchain of the rulebook ... at least for this one. Since we want the league to be able to operate without the need for extensive FAQ publications from our forums "on hand," and to be able to resolve rules questions in a RAW ---> ask commission member --> dice off sense, quickly and efficiently while playing, we're probably going to stick to the (admittedly somewhat bizzare common sense-wise) RAW of turbo boosting bike scout moves = cover save, fast-moving skimmer scout moves = no cover save.

[paidinfull]

Gentlemen I completely agree with you both... for different reasons obviously

I just wanted to illustrate that RAW permit a scouting turboing bike a 3+ cover save but not a Skimmer. It definitely is not consistent. Bikes have the phrase following shooting phase, skimmers have the phrase in their movement phase. I am fine with however SGi decides I just wanted to know before it came up in a game.

Turboboost
p. 76
In the following enemy shooting phase, the bike benefits from a cover save of 3+ to represent the difficulty of hitting such fast moving targets. blah blah can't be pinned. blah blah no going to ground.

[Belhothar]

and its for linguistic inconsistencies such as this that you should always badger the crap out of any design studio person you ever meet. It takes virtually no work to standardize language, but the gaming experience is HUGELY improved by it. And no, the "but English isn't their first language" excuse doesn't hold water either. Hire a frikken copy editor, they work for pennies (pence, whatever) anyway.

Aside from that rant, I like all the RAW interpretations above. Not that my agreement is worth anything, but I do think Mike's spot on on the RAW way to play the game.

[paidinfull]

Rhett and I were saying this is why MTG has done so well.

Studio supports with constant FAQs on release

[Hawtogre]

I realize I do not have the experience that you gentlemen have when it comes to 40k...

:SW Storm Shields grant a 3+ invul save, or a 4+ invul in HtH - whichever you prefer as the owning player. Obviously, people are going to use the 3+ Invul save. It's perfectly legitimate to use the codex to which it refers, especially given it is more recent. That said, since there's also a rule in the SW codex proper ... you could use that too. We'll leave it at "3+ invul save."

I wonder about this because as a ex-red shirt, I can tell you it is a basic store(Games Workshop) rule that an armies codex has final say, especially when it comes to the weapons and gear that particular army uses. As such while the space marine codex has storm shields as 3+invunerable, if Dark Angels are using them they are a 4+ invunerable because that is how they are listed in the Dark Angel Codex. I don't think it has ever been possible in 40k or fantasy for that matter to cross codex's. If the weapon or piece of gear has been redefined in the BRB then it can be used as described in the BRB. Storm Shields are not defined in the BRB and as such should be used as per the rules set for the particular army the player is using.

Dark Angel Scouts come with both Shotguns AND bolters. Will that translate to my vanilla scouts?
Dark Angel bikes and attack bikes have the Scout rules. Does that translate to my vanilla bikes?

Most players at the store will not be familiar with your interpretation of this. Just wanted to bring this to your attention :)

BTW... Mike tell you guys I held my own against him? Mwuhahahaha!!!!

[MVB]

I agree w/ you Lee, except for the fact that the SW Codex effectively tells you to use both / either, when it tells you to refer to the SM Codex at the same time. Basically, both work ... since there's sort of an obvious choice, might as well just point to the marine codex.

[Hawtogre]

except for the fact that the SW Codex effectively tells you to use both / either, when it tells you to refer to the SM Codex at the same time.

Ah but the Dark Angel, Black Templar nor the Blood Angels codices send you to the Space marine Codex. Those Chapters are S.O.L in the case of Storm Shields? As a matter of fact, I don't think SW or Black Templar assault cannons are rending, and they do not refer you back to the space marine codex.

Really not trying to be a dick here, just asking for clarification.

[MVB]

It's not that we should go "oh well the other ones don't refer you to the codex, but this one does, so sucks for them." It's that there are such discrepancies throughout the codices and rulebook. Using RAW as a strict guideline prevents the need for having to craft a giant league FAQ where we "fix" what we think they intended or didn't intend.

Rules As Written, Space Wolves get 3+ storm shields, but none of the other guys do. Sucks for them, yes, but dat's da way da cookie kwumbles.

Besides, Black Templar have some pretty nasty tricks ... and as for the others, well ... price you pay for playing with a known-to-be-weak codex ... besides, you can always play them as nilla rines.

Heh, also not trying to be a dick here :)

[Hawtogre]

Ooooooh-tay

[MVB]

Don't worry ... word on the street is space wolves don't get storm shields at all ... or at least don't get them with thunder hammers, in the new wolf codex.

Instead they just get pricey relic blade spam (effectively).

[paidinfull]

I think what bugs me about the other older marine codex is SGTs don't have TA included. The models that can take PF all only have 1 attack.
Supah lame

[paidinfull]

I like that idea better... Lots of Relic blades.
B)

[HuronBH]

There's a couple of these I can answer off-hand ... and I reserve the right to change my answers in the face of cogent argument :)

3) Rough Riders + Furious Charge - yes, first time charging they're operating at S6I6


While I agree with the rest of what you have posted I need to ask a question about #3. You guys are a RAW club which confuses me why you chose to go with the S6 I6 choice for this question.

Sorry I do not have either book in front of me so I can not direct quote, however I have been in discussions about this before so have a pretty clear idea of the wording of the rules associated.

Furious Charge - Models who charge receive +1 Strength and Initiative on the first turn of combat.

Hunting Lances - The first time during the game a model with a hunting lance charges they fight at Strength 5, Initiative 5, and their attacks count as being from power weapons.

The wording for hunting lances clearly states that when attacking with them a model fights at Str 5, Init 5. It does not say that they gain +2 Strength and Init but that whatever they would have now counts as Str 5 Init 5.

While I will admit by RAI I am pretty sure they meant for the two to work together, by RAW they do not. Models with out lances and all models on subsequent charges will benefit from Furious charge however.

I will abide by the clubs decision, though it will be weird as the other club I am in (The IFL) have gone the str 5 init 5 way.


-jay

[MVB]

It's a good one to discuss ... I don't know if it's RAW that way or both ways ... maybe we can chat it out.

At any normal point in time, Rough Riders fight at Strength 3 and Initiative 3.

When they charge with the hunting lance, on that first round of combat, they fight at Strength 5 and Initiative 5 instead. Furious charge doesn't say models who charge receive +1Strength and +1 Initiative ONLY TO THEIR BASE STATS ... it just says +1s/i ... if they are fighting at S5 and I5, furious charge RAW seems to then add 1 s and 1 i to that.

It can be a semantics game, but it seems both RAW reasonable, and RAI reasonable. Additionally, you could cross reference something like power fists and furious charge, I imagine.


Open to discussion, for sure!

[HuronBH]

It's a good one to discuss ... I don't know if it's RAW that way or both ways ... maybe we can chat it out.

At any normal point in time, Rough Riders fight at Strength 3 and Initiative 3.

When they charge with the hunting lance, on that first round of combat, they fight at Strength 5 and Initiative 5 instead. Furious charge doesn't say models who charge receive +1Strength and +1 Initiative ONLY TO THEIR BASE STATS ... it just says +1s/i ... if they are fighting at S5 and I5, furious charge RAW seems to then add 1 s and 1 i to that.

It can be a semantics game, but it seems both RAW reasonable, and RAI reasonable. Additionally, you could cross reference something like power fists and furious charge, I imagine.


Open to discussion, for sure!

Okay, this is why I need to always quote rules, I found this over on the IFL forum.

p44
Hunting Lance
"RR are armed with a long hunting lance tipped with a shaped explosive charge that can tear through even the toughest armor.

RR use their hunting lances the first time they charge into close combat, after which they cannot be used agains.

When they charge into close combat a unit armed with hunting lances count as being armed with power weapons that strike at Strength and initiative 5. Models with a hunting lance cannot gain an extra attack from having an additional close combat weapon."

That was the bit the sparked this with me, the wording actually says that they Strike at Strength and Initiative 5, not there their strength and initiative actually are 5. So even though they would get the bonus from furious charge they still have to attack at Strength and Initiative 5.


-jay

[MVB]

This is why I think it's a semantics game.

You strike at your strength. If you're striking at Strength 5, that's what the strength of your attacks is.

Take it this way - Power Fists strike at double strength ... they add the Furious Charge AFTER this ... not before it. So furious charging strength 3 models are not Pfist Strength 8 ... they're pfist strength 7.

Same type of rule writing/phrasing ... but works that way.

It doesn't really matter what you're hitting with ... the fact is, whatever special weapon you're using, furious charge adds +1 to the strength and initiative you're using. Weapons don't even HAVE initiative values ... it's an impossibility, so you can't claim that b/c it says you strike at that, you don't have those stats for the strike. If that makes any sense ... perhaps it doesn't :)

But as I read it, the rules as written can be interpreted EITHER way, without abusing the Englisih language, or the precedents of the game. Backing that up are responses from GW rules boys, and FAQs for well regarded tournaments, that generally support a S6I6 response.

*shrug* perhaps?

I'm open to hearing continued discussion ... I enjoy this type of thing.

[HuronBH]

Hmm, Shrug. To me it says it strikes at Str 5 Init 5 so that is the strength you hit at during the Init 5 step of the combat phase other rules be damned. Special rules for weapons and equipment have always been a bit wacky (and poorly edited). For me the point comes down to what each special rule is meant to effect.

Furious Charge I believe is supposed to modify the stats of the model. A model with a power fist doubles his strength when attacking, but it is still his strength score that is being used. The reason you multiple the strength then add to it is just because that is the order of operations GW chose to go with.

The Hunting Lance defines when and how the weapon attacks no matter who is holding it, so it is describing the Strength and Initiative of the weapon not the user. So if joe and bob both were attacking with a Hunting Lance and Joe was Strength 3 and Initiative 3 and Bob was strength 4 and Initiative 4 both would strike at Str 5 Init 5 no matter what other special rule they would have.

But as I said before I will play with whatever ruling which ever club I am gaming with has made.

[Crom]

My 2cents on the rough riders:

Furious charge affects the base stats of the model, so a Str 3 Int 3 Guardsmen with furious charge is now a 4/4 guardsmen. His weapon allows him to attack at Str 5 int 5. so he then gets an additional bonus on the first turn he charges due to the hunting lance.

Now for my thread derail on another Ruling regarding the IG codex.

The Officer of the fleet affects enemy reserve rolls (-1) made for a unit that comes in from reserve. (I'm not sure on the exact wording, would appreciate if someone would post that)

The Tau Positional Relay:
From the second turn onwards, as long as the bearer is on the table at the beginning of the turn in which this device is used, a single unit that is being held in reserve may be deployed on a D6 roll of 2+, though no other units in reserve may be deployed this turn.

RAW, it does not look like Officer of the Fleet affects the PRelay.

Thoughts?

[HuronBH]

I think the question is does the roll of the PRelay count as a Reserve roll? If yes then the Officer of the Fleet would modify said Reserve roll to a 3+. If it is not a Reserve roll and is instead a special affect the applies to models in Reserve, then I would say it does not affect the PRelay.

That said, for example, what happens if the model with the PRelay gets killed in say turn 2 in subsequent turns. Do you revert to normal Reserve rolling in turn 3?


-jay

[paidinfull]

Now this is just my interpretation, but I see it that the Positional Relay allows you to make a single reserve roll that succeeds on a 2+. I realize it says "may be deployed", but that also raises the question... are you technically "deploying" if you move on from the table edge? Deep Strike has the wording "deployed" in it... kinda weird though.

I think officer of the fleet does work against it, unfortunately, though I think it shouldn't.