Good turnout from Iraq

[shutupandshave]

I didn't want to post this in the "Iraqi's have the spirit of freedom" thread, because that thread was mostly just Bush-Sucking.

Anyway.

It seems the turnout was going to be pretty good. There was a lot less trouble than there could have been - a LOT less. I am sure there will be some dispute over the results, however that seems to be the case in all American run elections ;) and should be resolved quickly.

There's no doubt that this wasn't the best election ever, however it was not the worst. Good turnout (although why people didn't think there would be is beyond me), and perhaps a couple of elections down the line, Iraq WILL be a standard for democracy in the middle-east.

[stats]

yeah, it wasn't a full democratic ellection i feel - but hopefully it will bring some stability to the region. it's a shame about the suni's i fear that will come and bite the new government in the arse before long. Good luck to them though.

[Karmashock]

I didn't want to post this in the "Iraqi's have the spirit of freedom" thread, because that thread was mostly just Bush-Sucking.

Anyway.

It seems the turnout was going to be pretty good. There was a lot less trouble than there could have been - a LOT less. I am sure there will be some dispute over the results, however that seems to be the case in all American run elections ;) and should be resolved quickly.

There's no doubt that this wasn't the best election ever, however it was not the worst. Good turnout (although why people didn't think there would be is beyond me), and perhaps a couple of elections down the line, Iraq WILL be a standard for democracy in the middle-east.

It wasn't bush sucking... I just commented on the fact that bush will likely go down as a hero to this new country for generations... which I find amusing considering what a horrible speaker he is and how poorly received he is in the west.


The point of that thread was to point out that these people have the will to defend their republic from tyranny. You have to look the tyrants right in the eye and give them the same fucking crazy look back.

The look that says, you might be willing to kill a million of me to get your objective, but we're willing to die to see that you fail.

That's what the Iraqi people need... and I think they have it. It means they won't need the US to keep them free in the long term... they'll be able to hold their own ground whatever may come.



As to the Sunnis, if they don't participate in the government, they'll be ruled.

That's the way it works... vote or have decisions made for you. If they do participate, then the violence from them should subside and eventually stop. The foreign terrorists will not stop until their generators are shut down.


Love and peace, Karmashock.

[shutupandshave]

Hmm, once again we'll see.

The Sunni boycott will probably help in the long run, however it may cause 20% of people to stand up against the government and try and take it down.

[Karmashock]

they're just hurting htemselves... they'll figure it out or become irrelevent.

[Tank0]

it looks good but they are walking a thin line .

the boycott could lead to a civil war that can take decades to solve ( ireland )
the elections can result in a muslimstate ( iran )
kurdish selfcontrole could make turkey nervous because the large kurdish population at the border .

first steps are made but they will have to watch their steps

[shutupandshave]

they'll figure it out or become irrelevent.
You sound like the borg.

[Karmashock]

We have suggested a federal state with each group having regional control of its area and proportional control of the federal government.

That is what makes sense to us... but they're free to set it up however they like.




As to the borg, only because I like words like irrelevant and futile. I used to be a treky when I was a little kid... perhaps that's a hold over.

Either way, it's true. We're banking on the human will to freedom and the radials are banking on their ability to scare people.

They can't win. All we have to do is hold the line and they lose.

so yeah... their attempts are futile.

Humanity will be free.

[shutupandshave]

by the US' definition*

[Karmashock]

By any... they can tell us to fuck off it they like...

They can create an islamic state... they can do whatever they want.

It's their country. All we're doing is making sure that it's their choice.


That is freedom by any definition.


IF you want ot play "there is no spoon" head games then take that drivel else where... it's of no use to anyone.

[shutupandshave]

Was there the option on the voting poll to put Saddam back in power?
Was there the option to have all Allies leave immediately?

[Tank0]

They can create an islamic state... they can do whatever they want.


yeah right , then you ll go "liberate" them again

[MVB]

Suas, there are British people, I'm sure could be found, who want the Queen beheaded. Why do they not get a voting option somewhere that says "behead the Queen?"

Those fighting against the Americans seek a government which they -- a minority -- decide upon, undemocratically (you'll notice, Zarqawi made a statement saying "democracy was a lie, anyone who participates in the election is an enemy of Islam"), and regardless of the will of the people as a whole. The current US approach has given them the right to choose, to some degree, what they wish to do with their own nation.

This is the greater freedom, at the very least. Your worst, and most hilarious argument, has consistently been the attempt to claim the US would somehow be giving more freedom to the Iraqi people if we just up and left. They were not free under Saddam, and another Saddam is all they would get if no force stood in the way of the terrorists operating there right now.

[Karmashock]

Was there the option on the voting poll to put Saddam back in power?
Was there the option to have all Allies leave immediately?
Sure... The elections were for people to represent the people in the new government. If those people wanted, they could free saddam and tell the US to leave.

Bremer says U.S. will leave Iraq if new government asks (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4978361/)
We're not the soviets... we respect freedom. If the people honestly choose to live under tyranny, then they can have it.

They won't... because NO ONE EVER WANTS THAT!... but heck, I'll take a bet I can't lose.
yeah right , then you ll go "liberate" them again
Nope. If they keep to themselves and don't cause a larger issue, then they can do whatever they like.

We are freeing these people and that means something. It isn't just a word, it means something.


I guess you'll just have to see... perhaps you'll figure it out after ten years or something.

[shutupandshave]

Your worst, and most hilarious argument, has consistently been the attempt to claim the US would somehow be giving more freedom to the Iraqi people if we just up and left.
MVB, I have never
never
said that.

I have ALWAYS said that we need to stick it out.

Dont make things up to make people look bad MVB, it's disgraceful.

[shutupandshave]

And I would like to point out - that we attacked Iraq for the WMD and Saddam's Al-Q links.

That was the primary reason.

[Wicksy]

yeah right , then you ll go "liberate" them again
No we won't. We'll leave that to the grand Old European armies who have liberated so many in the past.

And I would like to point out - that we attacked Iraq for the WMD and Saddam's Al-Q links. That was the primary reason.
For you maybe. I've already given you rather substantial lists (http://www.free-collective.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=29056#29056) (several times) of why I PERSONALLY think we went to war against Saddam. They're not trivial matters either, but none of them seem to sink into your head. There were in fact plenty of reasons why the job needed to be done. But you either weren't aware of or didn't care about them.

You advocated war against Afghanistan (http://www.free-collective.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=29106#29106) for much less, remember?

[Morpheus]

"We" went to war against Saddam, or Bush(es) went to war against Saddam?

Just wondering.

[Wicksy]

"We" went to war against Saddam, or Bush(es) went to war against Saddam? Just wondering.
Here's a full list of countries that are part of the Coalition or went to war against Saddam and his brutal murderous gangsters:

US, UK, Australia, Japan, South Korea, Poland, Italy, Spain, Denmark, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Netherlands, Norway, Portugal, Romania, Ukraine, Bulgaria, Estonia, Georgia, Kazakhstan, El Salvador, Colombia, Nicaragua, Costa Rica, Dominican Republic, Honduras, Eritrea, Ethiopia, Uganda, Rwanda, Angola, Philippines, Afghanistan, Azerbaijan, Uzbekistan, Marshall Islands, Micronesia, Solomon Islands, Mongolia, Palau, Tonga, Albania, Macedonia, Turkey, Croatia, Slovenia.

Many thanks to Krogoth for providing some of this list :)

[shutupandshave]

Wix, the reason you thought we were going to war (which I unfortunately have no proof of) and the reason the governments went to war are two different things. I dont disagree with some of the reasons you thought we went to war... however we were not discussing that, so the fact I am not talking about it here should come as no surprise to you.

When I was on these boards, everyone was talking about weapons of mass destruction, hardly anything (if anything at all) else. THAT'S why the people here thought we went to war, certainly primarily, and that was a lie.

I have told you many times before that I agreed with the afghanistan war because it made sense at the time. Going into a country to get non-existant WMD didn't make sense to me.

Afghanistan was a war against a regime that was harbouring a criminal against the US. Bin Laden had organised the bombing of the twin towers, and in a response the US asked for him, and was refused, so they said "fuck this we're going to go find him"... which incidently they've been unable to do.

If the Taliban had handed him over, I seriously doubt there would have been regime change.

The fact you suggest that the primary reason the UK and the US public were given for going to war was NOT WMD, is crazy. I have polled people about this - almost everyone agrees, and I was able to dig out evidence proving almost all those that said they didn't agree were lying.

Perhaps you should sink it into your had that you cant come into a thread half-way through and start complaining because the thread wasn't talking about the reasons you weren't to war.

[Karmashock]

MVB, I have never
never
said that.
You've implied that the US should have left them under saddam... and you seem to be unhappy with the way their new government is going.

[shutupandshave]

Implications infer your assumptions on something I say
I have not said I was happy with the way the new Iraqi government is going
I am unhappy about the fact the US invaded Iraq under false pretences, I am unhappy about the innocent people that died for lies.

I have stressed before that I do believe Iraqi's will be better off in the long run...so that the rest of my comments coule not be seen as an implication.

[Karmashock]

... Read.

I have not said I was happy with the way the new Iraqi government is going
Nor did I say or infer or suggest or hint or telepathically project that thought.
and you seem to be unhappy with the way their new government is going.















I am unhappy about the fact the US invaded Iraq under false pretences, I am unhappy about the innocent people that died for lies.
They're free and happy about that... again, history won't remember things in your pessimistic tone.

I have stressed before that I do believe Iraqi's will be better off in the long run...so that the rest of my comments coule not be seen as an implication.
Again, you seem to suggest that the US should have left Iraq under tyranny FOREVER.

So in the long run, your solution would have been worse for the Iraqis regardless... I mean... even by your own logic.








See why we feel we get a bum rap by you people?... of course not... we're evil...

*cries with frustration*

[shutupandshave]

They're free and happy about that...
How can dead innocent people be free and happy? For christs sake you're getting sick now.

Again, you seem to suggest that the US should have left Iraq under tyranny FOREVER.
No, I am saying the opposite - I am AGREEING with getting rid of Saddam. However there are usually better ways to get rid of infections than cutting off limbs.

[Karmashock]

How can dead innocent people be free and happy? For christs sake you're getting sick now.
Again, you're making the argument that nothing is worth any loss of life.

where would humanity be if that were the case? probably extinct.


No, I am saying the opposite - I am AGREEING with getting rid of Saddam. However there are usually better ways to get rid of infections than cutting off limbs.
A civil war would have killed more people. I can't think of a more bloodless and effective way considering what Iraq was coming from.

think of how awful a civil war would have been with those ethnic groups etc.


the fucking horror... our actions have been less then a scratch compared to that.

[shutupandshave]

Again, you're making the argument that nothing is worth any loss of life.

where would humanity be if that were the case? probably extinct.

<suas>I am unhappy about the innocent people that died for lies.
<karma>They're free and happy about that
<suas>How can dead innocent people be free and happy?
<karma>Again, you're making the argument that nothing is worth any loss of life.

No I'm not

I was expressing remorse at the people the died, and you said they were happy.

I dont agree with the loss of life, but I understand that some things are worth it... this was not what we were talking about though.

[Karmashock]

yes you are... I'm taking all our discussions on this as one.

what would be worth the loss of life? nothing... nothing is worth more then so much as one life... for anything.

[shutupandshave]

Well stop making assumptions, and stick to the thread of the conversation then please... that way we can have one, instead of having so many disagreements, because you decide to change the scope of the conversation without telling anyone.

[Karmashock]

Well stop making assumptions, and stick to the thread of the conversation then please...
... Do you know just how much of a hypocrite this line has made you? How many times have you taken all our discussions as one? I am merely adapting to the status quo.

If you want to keep each discussion seperate, as I once asked you to do, then you will have to reestablish that rule. Until then, this is my adaptation.

I mean... you've violated this rule several times today... Asking me to obey it, in this context, is idiotic.

[shutupandshave]

Karma everything you just said is not true.

Tell me, how many times HAVE I taken all our discussions as one?

It is quite clear to me when the thread of the conversation changes with anyone else.

Let me try and explain to you what it's like when I have a conversation with you

suas: 1 and 1 = 2 right
Karma: right

suas: 2 and 2 = 4 right?
karma: right

suas: 3 and 3 = 6 right?
Karma: right

suas 4 and 4 = 8 right?
Karma:You stupid pathetic loser, you are such a fucking idiot. You should take a maths course you idiot. Fucking hell you're stupid, you fucking idiot.

suas: wtf? You fag! so what's the answer then?
Karma: 14 of course, you have the 8 then you add it to the 6 before hand, christ they teach that in elementry math. It's called the fibonacci sequence.

suas: *sighs*
karma: I OWNED YOU.
everyone: *giggle*

Karma, if we stray from the context of the thread, that's one thing, as long as we're continuing to maintain the thread of the current conversation - if you want to bring some outside rules in - that's fine, but let me know when you do it... dont just change the rules.

I said "people are dead" and you said "they're happy about it" (emphasis added by me).

You cant just claim that you were talking about Iraqi's in general.

[Karmashock]

Karma everything you just said is not true.
I didn't read any farther then this... I'm not playing stupid games with you. You know the facts, and you seem disinterested in having discussions beyond trying to look cleaver. The double talk, the anal and irrelevant contractitions, the false logic, etc.

I'm bored by this... Either have discussion, or you will have succeeded in killing it... which likely your goal... so good work.

[shutupandshave]

Karma, I am discussing, right now we're discussing the fact you were wrong, and you're pretending you weren't again, by changing the rules of the conversation.

I cant discuss anything with you unless you know how to have a conversation, and it seems that you're lacking in that area somewhat.