Next months guard, critique please.

[flipperray]

First i want to thank myself for being bad and having a garbage list for this month and guaranteeing my first 3 scheduled matches to be loses :(. But looking forward i came up with a list that I'm planning on running for next month that has the same principle but more efficient execution.

I would also like to preface this by understanding that its very possible that a list with 123 valkaries and 23534 vets with meltas/flamers is the best list however I'm trying to go another direction so if anyone would care to help me refine my list keep that in mind.


HQ

-Company command squad w/ Officer of the fleet = 80


Elites

-Storm trooper squad w/ melta x2 = 105
-Storm trooper squad w/ melta x2 = 105


Troops

-Platoon #1= 225
-Command squad (30)
-Infantry squad w/ autocannon (60)
-Infantry squad w/ autocannon (60)
-Heavy weapons team w/ lascannon x3 (75)


-Platoon #2= 160
-Command squad w/ autocannon (40)
-Infantry squad w/ autocannon (60)
-Infantry squad w/ autocannon (60)


-Veteran squad w/ heavy flamer, flamer x2, power fist, grenadiers doctrine = 145


Fast Attack

-Vendetta gun ship w/ twin linked lascannon x3 =130


Heavy Support

-Leman Russ vanquisher w/ KC Pask, lascannon = 220


-Leman Russ squadron = 425
-Leman Russ punisher w/ plasma sponsons, heavy bolter (220)
-Leman Russ demolisher w/ plasma sponsons, heavy bolter (205)


-Medusa squadron = 405

-Medusa w/ medusa cannon, heavy bolter = 135
-Medusa w/ medusa cannon, heavy bolter = 135
-Medusa w/ medusa cannon, heavy bolter = 135

[flipperray]

Wow i posted this on another site and someone noticed that im even dumber than i had originally imagined. A heavy weapons team is 60 base plus 15 PER las, so my original list was invalid seeing as i had it listed at 75 pts not the 110 i should have been paying and i should have to forfeit my first months games anyway :( On a another note ive came up with what i im going to do for next month seeing that i cant use the las team.

HQ

-Company command squad w/ Astropath = 80


Elites

-Storm trooper squad w/ melta x2, power weapon = 115


-Storm trooper squad w/ melta x2 = 105


Troops

-Platoon #1= 160

-Command squad w/ autocannon (40)

-Infantry squad w/ autocannon (60)

-Infantry squad w/ autocannon (60)


-Veteran squad w/ heavy flamer, flamer x2, power fist, grenadiers doctrine = 145


-Veteran squad w/ heavy flamer, flamer x2, power fist, grenadiers doctrine = 145

Fast Attack

-Valkyrie = 100


-Valkyrie = 100


Heavy Support

-Leman Russ vanquisher w/ KC Pask, lascannon = 220


-Leman Russ squadron = 425

-Leman Russ punisher w/ plasma sponsons, heavy bolter (220)

-Leman Russ demolisher w/ plasma sponsons, heavy bolter (205)


-Medusa squadron = 405

-Medusa w/ medusa cannon, heavy bolter = 135

-Medusa w/ medusa cannon, heavy bolter = 135

-Medusa w/ medusa cannon, heavy bolter = 135

[MVB]

Strong Points:

Heavy support in your army is mean ... 3 Medusas are ridiculously powerful on the offensive front (if a little easy to ding), and 3 Leman Russes are nasty also. I don't like the Vanquisher at all, b/c I don't see Russes as effective anti-vehicle either way, and that's a lot of points to sink into what's basically a meltagun and a lascannon. Yes, you're very good against vehicles, effectively possessing a S9 +2d6 and a S10 shot, but I'm not sure it's the right way to go.

Questionables:

Your troops selections are very, very meager. 5 very easy to kill squads, one of which is only 5 man.

I would give your Infantry and Command Squads Grenade Launchers + Mortars, for the same points. Your range is more limited, but I don't think it will always hurt you, and it lets you keep them mega hidden if needed and still be able to at least fire the mortars. There's no points difference, and if you are in line of sight, you can at least double layer mortar + grenade launcher per squad, which will put a lot of wounds on infantry targets. Plus, you can't truly "miss," which is your big issue w/ guard accuracy.


Final Note: Valkyrie Hellstrike Missiles are NOT large blast, rules as written. They are single shot that rolls 2 dice and picks highest when hitting armor. This means that your 100 point valks actually kinda suck, offensively. I recommend finding 30 points per and giving them Multiple Rocket Pods. They're just plain worth it, and changes the valks from a flying multilaser (not very scary) to a unit that can move 12", and fire a multilaser AND 2 pie plates at a target. Two strength 4 pie plates layered on an infantry squad will kill models reliably, whether the squad is comprised of Orks in the open, or terminators.



Finally, I don't know what your command squad is doing. I guess you're going to use it to give orders to your autocannons, but seems like kind of a waste of 4 guys who can get cheap special weapons and are BS4.

[flipperray]

Wow, you were spot on with that assessment. Was missing some big holes there. I came up with a revised list thats still sticks to my original idea and incorporating alot of your perspectives.

HQ

-Company command squad w/ atropath = 80

Elites

-Storm trooper squad w/ melta x2, = 105
-Storm trooper squad w/ melta x2 = 105

Troops

-Platoon #1= 150
-Command squad (30)
-Infantry squad w/ autocannon (60)
-Infantry squad w/ autocannon (60)

-Veteran squad w/ heavy flamer, flamer x2 = 100
-Veteran squad w/ Bastonne, melta x3 = 160
-Veteran squad w/ Harker, chimera, heavy flamer, flamer x2 = 210

Fast Attack

-Valkyrie w/ multiple rocket pods = 130
-Valkyrie w/ multiple rocket pods = 130

Heavy Support

-Leman Russ squadron = 425
-Leman Russ punisher w/ plasma sponsons, heavy bolter (220)
-Leman Russ demolisher w/ plasma sponsons, heavy bolter (205)

-Medusa squadron = 405
-Medusa w/ medusa cannon, heavy bolter = (135)
-Medusa w/ medusa cannon, heavy bolter = (135)
-Medusa w/ medusa cannon, heavy bolter = (135)

[Rhethro]

So I like the new improvements the only thing i see glaring is the amount of small squads that are just sitting out by themselves, may want to cut one and hide the rest in chimera's, they have 5 fire points and can put out some decent firepower at little cost. would also prevent people from just looking at your command squads and pummeling them with small arms fire.

Rhett Austin

[MVB]

Rhett's point is a very good one .... I tend to agree.

Your infantry squads vaporize in every game I see you play. This is going to bite you in the tailpipe in some mission where you're winning on vp's, but desperately need to draw on objectives (or win on them), and can't b/c your opponent will casually look at your unprotected guardsmen near the end of the game, and they'll fall over dead.

You can sit there and fire out of your fire points on the chimeras all game long, rendering them open topped but still a free safe firing place for your infantry, immune to small arms fire. Plus, it's actually safer if the chimera does blow up, since they'll take S3 hits instead of S4.

I like Rhett's idea a lot, plus you can quickly move the squads to new scoring locations late if you need to.


Also, just for the record, I don't like your stormtroopers. I think they're "cool," but a throwaway unit that for guard are very expensive. 210 points gets you 3 Chimeras and change ... enough to put each of your infantry squads in transports (valks or chims), and further reinforcing the heavy mechanized theme of your army.

[flipperray]

First i want to thank you guys alot for all the insight, without insight from experienced 40k players it would take me months to see the things you see. I think your thoughts are fast tracking me to an army i feel comfortable with. Here is the yet again revised list.

HQ

-Company command squad w/ Lord Castellan Creed = 140

Elites

Troops

-Platoon #1 = 145
-Command squad w/ mortar (35)
-Infantry squad w/ mortar (55)
-Infantry squad w/ mortar (55)

-Veteran squad w/ flamer x3, power fist = 100

-Veteran squad w/ Bastonne, melta x3 = 160

-Veteran squad w/ Harker, chimera, flamer x3 = 195

Fast Attack

-Valkyrie w/ multiple rocket pods = 130
-Valkyrie w/ multiple rocket pods = 130

Heavy Support

-Leman Russ vanquisher w/ lascannon = 170

-Leman Russ squadron = 425
-Leman Russ punisher w/ plasma sponsons, heavy bolter (220)
-Leman Russ demolisher w/ plasma sponsons, heavy bolter (205)

-Medusa squadron = 405
-Medusa w/ medusa cannon, heavy bolter = (135)
-Medusa w/ medusa cannon, heavy bolter = (135)
-Medusa w/ medusa cannon, heavy bolter = (135)

my plan here is to use creed to give the medusas scout and out flank everything but my russes and some very hidden infantry squads who can hold objectives if need be. I feel that the vanquisher will give the anti-tank i need from a distance. i might end up subing the vanquisher for chimeras in the end but id like to try the crouching russ hidden mortars first. On a side note i believe that the valyrie hellstrike missles are ordinance. it says in the main rule book that unless otherwise stated any ordinance weapon uses a large blast template.

[Rhethro]

It looks like the list has seen a lot of improvements and i'm not a big fan of mortars but at least it looks like it is going in the right direction. Still not a fan of creed hanging out by himself. I know you can hide him the best you can but if someone gets line of sight to one of his dudes they can still rail him with some pretty good authority. I think you may want to squeeze in a chimera to protect him, just think of it as a bunker because he can still give orders from it while its weapons have some decent range. Also it being armor 12 means that anything that can reliably take it out will probably be shooting at the russ's so it will provide some nice safety.

Also a note on the ordinance weapons and if you take a closer look at the sentence pertaining to ordinance and blasts it states that:

All ordinance blast weapons unless otherwise stated are large blasts.

the key word in this is the blast right after ordinance which means that it is indeed a non-blast weapon so that rule does not apply.

Rhett Austin

[MVB]

it says in the main rule book that unless otherwise stated any ordinance weapon uses a large blast template.



The devil is in the details, my friend.

It says that unless otherwise noted, any ordnance BLAST weapon uses the large blast template. Whether intended or not, the Hellstrikes say Ordnance only, one-shot. No "blast" usage means no blast at all.

Rhett said that already, doh!



Re: the army, here's my only issue ...

3 Leman russes ... mobile firepower, can move and fire heavy weapons
3 Medusas (with intent to outflank) ... mobile firepower, can move and fire giant evil templates of doom
2 Vet Squads in 2 Valkyries ... mobile firepower, can move a ton and drop off tons of pie plates and BS4 nasty nasty guardsmen
Vet squad in Chimera ... mobile firepower, can move and drop lots of firepower

And then you've got a 140 point 5-man command unit with no weapons ... stuck immobile with 3 little guard squads with "can't move and shoot" weaponry (mortars).

It's like you're playing a 1750 game with 3 mortar templates as an "asset" coming on from the back-board ... sure they're 3 lil templates (and mortars are a good call IMO for BS3 guardsmen), but they are too disjointed from the rest of your army. If you want to be a "stationary" guard army ... a gunline ... do it; you can. Get rid of your deepstrikey/valkyrie-ie stuff, get rid of outflanking, and add more russes/keep the 3 medusas/add lots and lots of plain jane guardsmen.

Guard want 3 things:

1) Central uniformity of deployment and purpose
2) Lots of templates/pie plates for anti infantry (flamers, ordnance weaponry, etc.) ... even punishers don't deal a lot of wounds w/out pask, so it's all about the things to kill infantry that "can't miss"
3) High ballistic skill or twin-linkable anti-vehicle, preferably melta or S10AP1

You're getting closer and closer on #'s 2 and 3, but you're still missing uniformity of purpose. Veterans are not durable enough to be deployed via valkyries w/out the support of an entire army (a la 9 valkyries and 70 guardsmen). Flak armor won't keep them alive long enough.

If you want to have that unit that races forward, punches somebody, and gets annoying ... do 2 valks w/ 2 stormtrooper squads, and dedicate the rest of your points to the more gunliney attitude. Add in the astropath, and you can outflank the pair of valks on turn 2 to wherever you need them.

You're getting there, your list is already improved greatly, but think focused intent a little more. Guardsmen aren't marines, and if you aren't all for one and one for all, you'll get taken apart one at a time.



I'm going to self-promote as an idea here, and kinda focus in on most of the "best" builds that are out there also ...

Take my now-retired Tyranid ... 2 tyrants - dangerously shooty; 4 carnifexes - dangerously shooty; 60 spinegaunts - dangerously shooty; 9 warriors - dangerously shooty. Everything about the same speed, everythin assault weapon, everything fighting as a big gribbly ball of shooty doom.

Look at any really great army out there, and it's very focused on a task, and it does that task better than anybody else. Build it right, and you'll rock and roll. Leave a loose end or two here and there, and it basically feeds someone the key to beating you. You don't want anyone to ever have it "easy" figuring out what to target and when. Your army right now is better, but still riding that border where you know exactly what to use on what.

[flipperray]

Again i think you guys have hit the nail on the head, i was confused and it created wasted space. I wanted to make a final list that i feel can function as a two pronged attack and still be purposeful and mobile.

HQ

-Company command squad w/ Lord Castellan Creed, chimera, astropath, x3 melta, flamer = 260

Elites

Troops

-Veteran squad w/ melta x3, chimera = 155

-Veteran squad w/ flamer x3 = 85

-Veteran squad w/ Bastonne, melta x3 = 160

-Veteran squad w/ Harker, chimera, flamer x3 = 195

Fast Attack

-Valkyrie w/ multiple rocket pods, heavy bolters = 140
-Valkyrie w/ multiple rocket pods, heavy bolters = 140

Heavy Support

-Leman Russ executioner w/ plasma sponsons, heavy bolter = 230

-Leman Russ executioner w/ plasma sponsons, heavy bolter = 230

-Medusa squadron = 405
-Medusa w/ medusa cannon, heavy bolter = (135)
-Medusa w/ medusa cannon, heavy bolter = (135)
-Medusa w/ medusa cannon, heavy bolter = (135)

[MVB]

Aside from flamer + 3 melta on company command instead of dedicated purpose, that list is the shit.

[flipperray]

I think i have the final list lol.

HQ

-Company command squad w/ Colonel Iron Hand Straken, Nork Deddog, astropath, x2 melta, = 315


Elites


Troops

-Infantry Platoon = 290

-Platoon command squad w/ 4x sniper = (50)

-Infantry squad w/ flamer x3, chimera = (120)

-Infantry squad w/ flamer x3, chimera = (120)


-Veteran squad w/ melta x3, demolitions doctrine = 130


-Veteran squad w/ Harker, x3 sniper, heavy bolter = 150


Fast Attack

-Vendetta gun ship = 130


-Vendetta gun ship = 130

Heavy Support

-Leman Russ executioner w/ plasma sponsons, heavy bolter = 230


-Leman Russ executioner w/ plasma sponsons, heavy bolter = 230


-Medusa squadron = 405

-Medusa w/ medusa cannon, heavy bolter = (135)

-Medusa w/ medusa cannon, heavy bolter = (135)

-Medusa w/ medusa cannon, heavy bolter = (135)

[MVB]

You have 2 infantry squads w/ 3 special weapons each, which is illegal.

Your company command squad is pretty silly-fied ... very big target ... I suppose your intent is to stick it in a vendetta by abusing the Nork Deddog oversight ... could hurt you if they FAQ it (Which they should).

Platoon command squad is poo with sniper rifles. They hit on 4+'s, and won't be useful against lots of targets. Flamers in a chimera, or nothing and just there for orders, are both better expenditures.

The Harker/sniper/heavy bolter squad of veterans is interesting enough, I suppose. 2 heavy bolters + 3 snipers. Harker's relentless w/ his HvyBolter tho ... maybe better to give that unit 2x flamers, heavy flamer and put them in one of your transports, use them as an assault squad that throws 3 templates and a heavy bolter out of a chimera ... again, just thoughts.


I liked your prior list better, think the vendettas aren't a bad change though.

[flipperray]

Damn oversights, you are correct it was illegal :(

HQ

-Company command squad w/ Colonel Iron Hand Straken, Nork Deddog, astropath, x2 melta, = 315


Elites


Troops

-Veteran squad w/ flamer x3, chimera = (140)


-Veteran squad w/ flamer x3, chimera = (140)


-Veteran squad w/ melta x3, demolitions doctrine = 130


-Veteran squad w/ Harker, x3 sniper, heavy bolter = 150


Fast Attack

-Vendetta gun ship = 130


-Vendetta gun ship = 130

Heavy Support

-Leman Russ executioner w/ plasma sponsons, heavy bolter = 230


-Leman Russ executioner w/ plasma sponsons, heavy bolter = 230


-Medusa squadron = 405

-Medusa w/ medusa cannon, heavy bolter = (135)

-Medusa w/ medusa cannon, heavy bolter = (135)

-Medusa w/ medusa cannon, heavy bolter = (135)

Plan here is to infiltrate harker into a safe cover spot most likely an objective. Scout up or Outflank the vendettas, blast tanks and transports and create a mess in their front lines while having the bulk of my forces in position to template the hell out of them.

[flipperray]

Oh and ive heard that in the old codex Nork wasnt subject to alot of the same rules as ogryn, not sure if it true but it would help me sleep at night :p

[flipperray]

I think ive spent WAY to much time tweaking this list, so im ganna jusst go with this one and learn to play it as well as possible.


HQ

-Company command squad w/ Colonel Iron Hand Straken, astropath ,melta x4 = 235


Elites


Troops

-Veteran squad w/ flamer x3, grenadiers doctrine, chimera = 170


-Veteran squad w/ flamer x3, grenadiers doctrine, chimera = 170


-Veteran squad w/ melta x3, demolitions doctrine = 130


-Veteran squad w/ Harker, x3 sniper, heavy bolter = 150


Fast Attack

-Vendetta gun ship = 130


-Vendetta gun ship = 130

Heavy Support

-Leman Russ demolisher w/ heavy bolter = 165


-Leman Russ squadron = 460

-Leman Russ executioner w/ plasma sponsons, heavy bolter = 230

-Leman Russ executioner w/ plasma sponsons, heavy bolter = 230


-Medusa squadron = 270

-Medusa w/ medusa cannon, heavy bolter = (135)

-Medusa w/ medusa cannon, heavy bolter = (135)

[MVB]

Looks good to me. I would get rid of the astropath (you'll face me at most once / month unless you're lookin' fer it) and not outflank shit.

Your army needs to be on the board pounding things. You might take a master of the FLEET so that you can screw w/ people who try to outflank or drop pod things down onto you.

Your army is a mobile gunline with your infantry racing to target points. Reserves is just asking for critical parts to not be there when you need them.

So, great list, super cool, get rid of the astropath and replace w/ an officer of the fleet.

[flipperray]

Good call, I think i will do that :)

[flipperray]

I cant stop revising, :(

I figure I might as well keep the forums alive with the next evolution.

HQ

-Company command squad w/ Colonel Iron Hand Straken, melta x3 = 175


Elites


Troops

-Veteran squad w/ melta x3, chimera = 155


-Veteran squad w/ melta x3, chimera = 155


-Veteran squad w/ melta x3, power fist = 115


-Veteran squad w/ melta x3, power fist = 115


Fast Attack

-Vendetta gun ship = 130


-Vendetta gun ship = 130

-Vendetta gun ship = 130

Heavy Support

-Leman Russ demolisher w/ heavy bolter = 165


-Leman Russ squadron = 460

-Leman Russ executioner w/ plasma sponsons, heavy bolter = 230

-Leman Russ executioner w/ plasma sponsons, heavy bolter = 230


-Medusa squadron = 270

-Medusa w/ heavy bolter = (135)

-Medusa w/ heavy bolter = (135)

[MVB]

My only $.02 is I think you've still got weird things going on in your head with how to use your troop-toting valks.

Vendettas are best used as follows (in my humble opinion) within the framework of your current army ...

Option #1:
Vendettas hang back where not many dangerous things can shoot at them, and pot-shot light vehicles or monsters ... heavy vehicles if they MUST

During the game, Vendettas pick up threatened troops squads that are taking damage or are at risk of running, denying your opponent killpoints and causing the Vendettas to become "scoring" (troops inside).

Late in the game, w/ troops in them or not, and as needed, Vendettas turbo boost to objectives and contest them or captuer them if they have troops inside.



Option 2
Vendettas start the game with plain jane mega cheap guard squads inside, and do all of the above in option #1


Vendettas in your army are, in my opinion, redundant. They're delivering melta to a target, and they are fine that way. More importantly, they're some of your better dedicated anti-tank ... none of the russes/medusas are really all *that* good at it. Your meltas are better than the vendettas, though. I don't know what I'm feeling out, and I think your army is very solid as it is, but I'm not sure if you wouldn't be better suited tweaking the vendettas to valks w/ multiple rocket pods.

The vendettas are wasted points if they're moving 12" all game long to fire off only one of three lascannons, *AND* moreover they're going to be moving 24" sometimes on turn 1 to try and deliver your meltas. That's a waste of dedicated anti-tank firepower that you're going to often be struggling with thought-process-wise.

Make 'em MRP valks, IMO. Barring that, make your veterans flamers all, and hope that you knock out transports w/ the vendettas, only to flame to death whatever pops out ... for the same price as three meltas you can give your veterans 2 flamers and a heavy flamer.

Just thinking out loud.

[flipperray]

Yeah, its like Im trying to put a puzzle together in the dark. I put the pieces in order of how i think they are going to work, then the light comes on for a brief period and i had the right pieces but they were not in the correct order. Back to darkness :p

the strat (in my head lol) is to get straken and the 2 melta/PF squads in the thick of it most likely taking out alot of armor and doing as much cc as i can. With the exception of in dawn of war i can do this with ease, if it is DOW then ill just sit back with my dettas and rip. If they have any sit back and shoot armor i can rip with 1 melta squad and really not risk all that much, get back in and r+r. the though being is that unless i fail at killing their armor my vendettas can either pick up those troops if they are alive or turbo to safety and be gunships again. While this is happening on the front line my heavy support (my real strength) is in the backfield in position to unload. The other 2 squads will be my scoring units. The flamers kill probably just as many MEQ as my meltas will. If they are not MEQ then i can always assault them. And that leaves me able to take out other mech if need be with meltas, and some more wounds on monsterous creatures. As you can see from the composition of this post my brain is wired incorrectly but eventually id like to make that strat happen.

Im putting serious thought into making the vendettas MRP Valks.

[MVB]

MRP valks are just much better at troop insertion and cover roles.

The ability to move 12 and fire everything leaves you never tempted to move 6, and be vulnerable. Plus, they're toting tons of anti-vehicle firepower.

I know you're attached to Straken, but I don't know if he suits your mission at all, and the fact that he's fearless and surrounded by free kills makes him a difficult bargain in terms of getting his points back.

I like your tank brigade ... it's very good at anti-meq, anti-light vehicle, anti-monstrous creature, etc. It's not as good at dealing with heavy armor ... you have meltas for that.

My main concern is not that vendettas are bad ... they're very good. It's just that I don't know if they suit the close in melta spamming assault vehicles role that your guardsmen need to be performing. MRP's will give them a lot more flexibility in that role.

[flipperray]

Yeah im ganna make them Valkyries w/ MRPs. As far as Straken.... I am usually unsure about 95% of all things and decisions in any games (as you can see with my changing stuff around) however where i am a complete moron at most facets of any given system, the 5% where im sure and cant explain why im usually right. I just have a feeling like hes going to stay in my army for a long time.

Side note, Straken, Yarrick, and Nork in a valk with flamers and a medpack?

[MVB]

That's absurd.

[flipperray]

OK please dont show me anymore of the weaknesses i know are there :p FINAL LIST :o

HQ (175)

-Company command squad w/ Colonel Iron Hand Straken, melta x3 = 175


Elites (0)


Troops (540)

-Veteran squad w/ melta x3, chimera = 155


-Veteran squad w/ melta x3, chimera = 155


-Veteran squad w/ melta x3, power fist = 115


-Veteran squad w/ melta x3, power fist = 115


Fast Attack (390)

-Valkyrie w/ multi-laser, MRPs = 130

-Valkyrie w/ multi-laser, MRPs = 130

-Valkyrie w/ multi-laser, MRPs = 130

Heavy Support (895)

-Leman Russ demolisher w/ heavy bolter = 165


-Leman Russ squadron = 460

-Leman Russ executioner w/ plasma sponsons, heavy bolter = 230

-Leman Russ executioner w/ plasma sponsons, heavy bolter = 230


-Medusa squadron = 270

-Medusa w/ heavy bolter = (135)

-Medusa w/ heavy bolter = (135)

[Waffle]

Been there..... Beat that!!!!!! FACE

[flipperray]

LOL :'( Tom ripped me too! double :'(

Need some help, last 3 games i played i kill alota shit then had nothing to take objectives. Edited my list...suprise suprise.

HQ (175)

-Company command squad w/ Colonel Iron Hand Straken, bodyguard, melta x3 = 195

Troops (710)

-Veteran squad w/ melta x3, power fist, chimera = 170

-Veteran squad w/ melta x3, power fist, chimera = 170

-Veteran squad w/ flamer x3, power fist chimera = 155

-Veteran squad w/ melta x3 = 100

-Veteran squad w/ melta x3 = 100

Fast Attack (390)

-Valkyrie w/ multi-laser, MRPs = 130

-Valkyrie w/ multi-laser, MRPs = 130

-Vendetta gun ship = 130

Heavy Support (730)

-Leman Russ executioner w/ plasma sponsons, heavy bolter = 230

-Leman Russ executioner w/ plasma sponsons, heavy bolter = 230

-Medusa squadron = 270

-Medusa w/ heavy bolter = (135)

-Medusa w/ heavy bolter = (135)

[Waffle]

try playing with 3k worth of models and don't tell anyone. Thats probably your best bet. For real!!!!!!

[MVB]

Stats, please, from Tom game. He needs a win badly. Or not a league match? :)

[MVB]

The issue is how you're using the army, Phil.

Power fists, for one, are a waste ... 30 points that CAN and should be used elsewhere. If your guard get caught in assault, and you didn't want them to, you already made a critical mistake no matter what happens.

The catch is using your multiple vehicles and vehicle bases to get your infantry in a situation where they can shoot at a target, but can't be easily assaulted in return.

I don't know how you played the other night, but when I watched you play Brian recently, you ran all your veterans right out in front of a vastly CC superior chaos army, and said "EAT ME." It isn't that you didn't have enough, it's that you willfully suicided them.

That said, 6 vet squads = the shit ... just be careful you're mastering their use before you go crazy about it.

Honestly, and this is no props to myself really, but using a close range guard army requires a TON of practice to really master, and practice at 40k in general ... it's very vulnerable to "mistakes," whereas a more back-board gunline guard army is much more likely to survive abuse by a still-learning-the-nuances general.