New IG

[Darwinn69]

I am trying to finalize a list for my IG army that I want to start. I am debating between two lists with two completely different strategies. I kind of settled on the first list, but I'm willing to change my mind. I want to get as many comments as I can before I start buying expensive models.


This basically plays like a German Blizkrieg, tank advance with air support followed by infantry to mop up what ever is left over:

Company HQ - 155
2xPlasma
2xMelta
Chimera
-Hull HB, Turret HF

10xVetrans - 170
-3xPlasma
Chimera
-Hull HB, Turret HF

10xVetrans - 170
-3xPlasma
Chimera
-Hull HB, Turret HF

10xVetrans - 170
-3xPlasma
Chimera
-Hull HB, Turret HF

10xVetrans - 170
-3xPlasma
Chimera
-Hull HB, Turret HF

2xVendetas 260

2xVendetas 280
-2xHB Sponsons(cause I had points to burn)

2xDemolishers - 330
2xEradicator - 320

I'm considering droping the eradicator for another variant. Wouldn't mind trying to fit another LRBG in, but not sure how at the moment.
1995, 4 scoring and 14kp
9xAV12
4xAV14


My second list is a completely different tactic. Guard are really good at medium to long range firepower and this list realy trys to take advantage of that. It's a gunline list, but because everything is mounted it still retains quite a bit of mobility. I don't have this one fully fleshed out, but this is the direction I would want to go in:

Company HQ - 115
-Chimera
-Multi Laser, HB, Stubber

Platoon HQ - 95
-Chimera
-Multi Laser, HB, Stubber

Infantry Squad - 130
-Autocannon, Flamer
-Chimera
-Multi Laser, HB, Stubber

Infantry Squad - 130
-Autocannon, Flamer
-Chimera
-Multi Laser, HB, Stubber

Infantry Squad - 130
-Autocannon, Flamer
-Chimera
-Multi Laser, HB, Stubber

Infantry Squad - 130
-Autocannon, Flamer
-Chimera
-Multi Laser, HB, Stubber

-Vetrans -155
-Lascannon
-Chimera
-Multi Laser, HB, Stubber

6xVendettas - 780

Leaving 335 points for upgrades to my HQ's and either a tank or some artilery. More than likely a squad of griffons and some plama guns and flamers for the HQ sections. 6 scoring units and 14-16 KP.


I kind of like the first one better and as such it's a bit more fleshed out, but I'm open to any suggestions anyone has.

[MVB]

For the first list ...

1) I would upgrade your battle tanks to multi-melta sponsons or plasma sponsons, and make them your "big tank" hunters

2) You've got a LOT of plasma on guys who are good at killing themselves. Plasma is cool and all, but flamers and melta are better on vets in chimaeras. The flamers are the "best," letting you race chimaeras 12" into something and become a mini-hellhound, blasting 3 flame templates onto a just-tank-shocked infantry unit. Glorious, as it were.

3) So, my tweak would be probably something like all vets with flamers, freeing up ... 120 points; make the company hq 4 melta, so it has a dedicated purpose, and tank hunt with it while nesting it behind the other chimaeras on the way up; The vendettas are good, but I'd consider splitting them into 3 squads ... you're already crazy heavy on killpoints, so who cares on that one; I'd also consider taking like 2 demolishers with multi-melta sponsons, and 2 leman russ mbt's with no sponsons, and splitting them into 2 squadrons of battle tank with a leman russ MBT and a demolisher in each. This sounds counter-intuitive at first, but it lets you allocate hits onto the LRMBT until it is killed, keeping the demolisher free and clear to fire away turn by turn. AV14 glances/pens don't come in droves from any single target, really, so as long as a lucky shot doesn't gank the MBT, you can keep shunting weapon destroyed / shaken / etc. results onto it while keeping the demolisher intact.

Final note: I'd give your platoon hq 4 flamers ... pretty useful stuff there


Second list reactions ...

You've got autocannons and flamers in the same squads ...
Autocannons are cheap, but sucky on guardsmen ... they can't hit the broadside of the barn with any regularity.

I actually just plain don't like the 2nd list. That's too much single shot or low rof heavy weaponry. The Vendettas are good, don't get me wrong on that one, but otherwise you should have all veterans instead of infantry squads. There's just no point to any of your inf. squads. They aren't good at anything, really, and you don't have all that many of them.

If you think about it, 10 Veterans w/ Chimaera = 125 points. Add a flamer, and it's a 130 point unit that's better than the Inf squads you have. You're not helping yourself by having inf squads, so either utilize them fully by spamming the crap out of them, or go all vets and chims, and use your extra points to load your vets out with the weaponry they need.

2nd list leaves me shrugging and going "meh" is all

[Crom]

For the first list, I think Mike pretty much hit the nail on the head. Flamer's/Melta is much better imo on guardsman that you are going to be throwing into chim's and rushing with.

Don't get me wrong, 3 plasma gun's rapid firing is nice and all, but with only 40 guardsman you can't really afford to have your guys killing themselves ontop of what your opponent is swatting aside. The best option for guardsman to have plasma nowadays in mech lists is Plasma Cannon Sponsons (IMO)

You're second list however is messy and without much purpose or identity.

If you are going to have a squad in a chimera at any time there really is no point to include a heavy weapon in there. Once you get in the Chim its not firing so its wasting points, and once you disembark it has to wait a turn to fire, so its wasting points.

So here are your two options for tweaking that list:

1) Drop the Chim's, and go full guard spam. Take autocannons (Or other heavy weapon of choice) and Grenade Launchers. Infantry squads may not be the best shots, but accurate shooting has never been a huge strong point of guard, its all about volume of fire. Then maybe take some Artillery/tanks and a squad of Rough Riders to run over a squad of deepstriking terminators or other baddies that make it into your lines

2) Drop the heavy weapons, and make it another mechanized list that you want to try out. Maybe make the Infantry squads your tank hunters and Take tanks like the Punisher (or w/e the one with Heavy 20 shots is) and see how ya like that

[Darwinn69]

I agree on the second list, thats why it's not fleshed out as much. I was trying to make something that had a chimera wall with artillery support behind it and try to force a ranged firefight. I just keep bumping into myself in that I don't quite have enough points to make a scary artillery battery and an effective chimera screen that can handle both infantry and tanks. I will point out though that the autocannons can shoot out of the chimera when it's parked with no penality. It has 5 fire points from the top hatch and it doesn't count as open topped if you do that.

On the first list I'm going to have to think about your comments. I like the BS4 of the veterans and putting flamers on them feels like a waste...but good point on plasma guns being dangerous. If they both rapid fire I'll kill 1.5 guardsmen a turn. Realisticly I'll only get 2-3 turns to fire which means around 6 dead guard...not game breaking by it can be a dent. Doing the whole tank shock flamer trick is why I put heavy flamers on the chimeras turret instead of the multi-laser...so I'm not too concerned about a couple of more S4 flamers that will do nothing against MEQ anyways. I'm even thinking about putting a small'ish pshyic choir in their to make tank shocking more effective. I might try and find points to upgrade my plasma squads to carapace armor, or see if I can find some other special weapon combo that I like.

I had considered doing what you suggested and pair a LRBT with a demolisher or another variant. One of my favorites was Pask in the plasma cannon leamon russ with plasma sponsons paired with a regular LRBT. I might still do something like that. I do like the eradicator, it gets rid of horde armies that try to hug cover and doesn't cost much more than a regular LRBT. I might intermix those with the demolishers to give me options. Call me old school but I'm typically not a fan of sponsons on LRBT...I'll give it some more thought tho.

[Darwinn69]

Also, something else to note. If a chimera moves more than 6" then it can't shoot, and the passengers inside can't shoot either. So the only way for the tank shock/flamer trick to work is if you are in rapid fire range anyways.

[Darwinn69]

Whoops, now I realize the confusion. Two of those veteran squads are supposed to have 3xmeltas instead. So their is only 8 total plasma guns in the entire army. Damn cut and paste.

[MVB]

I understood the passengers can fire whether it moves 12" or not, just firing as if moving (a la shoota boys firing out of a 12" move battlewagon) ... why can't Chimeras do that?

Sponsons obviously have a lot of value now due to the special rule for the turrets. It never made sense to get sponsons b/c of the turret firing now I can't fire my sponsons rule, but that's gone. Not taking sponsons is actually the bad way to go now.

The problem w/ the 6 guardsmen you lose is they aren't just 7 point veterans. They're 22 point veterans. Ah to wish for a time when you could allocate "get hots" to something else besides the gun carrier ...

Melta's fine too ... it's better than plasma IMO. You only fire half as many shots, but they're much better against almost everything, and can crack any vehicle wide open. The plasma is just kinda pewp.

Also, three s4 flamer templates will obliterate MEQ, quickly. Some people made the same comment to me about my S4 valkyrie pie plate spam ... you're going to force a LOT of saves.

Think of it this way ... if you tank shock a 5-man marine squad into a nice line, and treble flamer them, you're going to get 15 hits, 7.5 wounds, and that's half a dead squad. If you're going after ANYTHING more numerous, the force multiplier is crazy. Plus, that many hits means a very high POTENTIAL # of wounds, and you never have to worry about gets hot or misses.

6 plasma shots, at most, will kill 6 marines. 15 flamer hits can do that too, but without any risk of missing or getting hot. Thinking on it, 6 plasma shots hit 4 times, and kill a guardsman. Those 4 hits wound a little under 3 times, and kill a little under 3 marines, unless they're in cover, and then they only kill like 1.5 - 2 marines. So the 6 plasma shots, for MORE POINTS (45 instead of 15), kill less marines than the flamer template does. What's more, if it's more than 10 guys, the plasma still only kills that many, but the flamers can kill even more. Going after MEQ, you killed 2 marines at the cost of a 22 point guardsman. Yay?

Plasma's just kinda poopy on guardsmen ... too much downside, too little upside for the points. A veteran is just too easy to kill to put a weapon that costs more than twice he does on him.



Final note: Veterans ARE good at BS4 ... and it does make you want to put things like plasmaguns on them for that ballistic skill, but the truth is that vets are CHEAP, compact special weapons delivery. The cheapest way to get 3 flamers on an infantry platoon is platoon hq w/ 3 flamers (45 points), guard squad (50 points), guard squad (50 points), and there you have it ... 145 points cheapest. You can get that for 85 points with veterans. Same for any other weapons combo. Vets are still just T3 5+ save guys, they're going to die often, and they're actually cheaper than infantry squads by default. So don't sweat not giving plasmaguns to the BS4 ... just don't think of it that way :p




Final case sample ... my own guard army delivers 25 bs4 meltaguns and 18 s4ap6 pie plates to the enemy for 2,000 points. There's no cheaper way to put that much firepower on a target, in the guard codex. Who'd have thought the "veterans" and rare flyers would be the cheapest way to deliver volume fire ... ? Well, they are.

[Darwinn69]

I think I cheated you. I looked it up a day or so ago and I'm pretty sure passengers can only fire if the vehicle can fire. So shaken and stunned effects the crew, and you can only move 6" and fire. I'll double check tonight.

[Crom]

You can move up to 6" and fire one weapon, as well as any defensive weapons (S4 and under)

At 6"+ you may not fire any weapons unless you are a fast vehicle, in which case

at 6" you can fire all weapons, and at 6"+ you can fire 1 weapon, as well as any defensive weapons.

I'm pretty sure the new always fire the turret weapon rule only applies to Leman Russ Vehicles

[MVB]

Referring to passengers firing, Littleton.

[Darwinn69]

Yup, just double checked. If a vehicle moves at cruising speed then passengers can't fire at all. That applies to fast vehicles as well, so if you want your passangers to fire you can only move 6 (7 with red paint job).

[MVB]

A thought on "mechanized" guard ...

Command HQ w/ Officer of the Fleet, 4 Meltaguns, Chimera (HB/ML) - 175 points
Command HQ w/ Officer o' the Fleet, 4 Meltaguns, Chimera (HB/ML) - 175 points

Vet Squad w/ 3 Flamers, Chimera (HB/ML) - 140 points
Vet Squad w/ 3 Flamers, Chimera (HB/ML) - 140 points
Vet Squad w/ 3 Flamers, Chimera (HB/ML) - 140 points
Vet Squad w/ 3 Flamers, Chimera (HB/ML) - 140 points
Vet Squad w/ 3 Flamers, Chimera (HB/ML) - 140 points
Vet Squad w/ 3 Flamers, Chimera (HB/ML) - 140 points

2 Devildogs w/ Multi-Melta Hull Mounts - 270
2 Devildogs w/ Multi-Melta Hull Mounts - 270
2 Devildogs w/ Multi-Melta Hull Mounts - 270

Whole army races forward 12" quickly; when it's time, moves only 6" ... devildogs can then fire their multi-melta blasts x2 + 2 multi-meltas at tank targets, command hq can set up to disembark if needed, but are tank hunters (4 melta each); Vet squads can 3 flamer each if the chims only move 6

Would be a "hard" army ... 8 chimeras, 6 hellhound chassis, effectively 70 armor-protected vets ... also a fast army.

[Darwinn69]

That's the same tactic that my 4'th edition Speed Freak list used....race up the field, let them get one maybe two rounds of shooting in...then what ever is left over kills the rest of their army. Problem is with chimeras since they are so much slower than trucks the enemy will easily get 3 rounds of shooting on your tanks before your in range to be effective, and if you assume they can kill 2 chimeras a turn(which isn't that hard) that means half your army is dead by the time you get their...heck they don't even have to kill the chimeras, just stun them so they advance piecemeal. And since you are spending two turns advancing full speed you aren't shooting back so they will still have most of their force intact. Veterans aren't that good at shooting that they can make up those kind of odds.

For armored advances to work you either need to get their second turn (Ork Truks/Valkries/Dark Eldar), or advance under serious cover and support(LRBT/Kustom Force Field, Wave Serpants, etc.). Your valkery list is the former...that chimera list is just a crappier version of your valkery list. I'm trying to build a list that uses cover and support to get into position, and since my special weapons are all ranged I'm more effective earlier than if I needed to use flamers.

Anyways, here is my current iteration:
Platoon HQ - 145
-4xMeltagun
-chimera

Veteran - 155
-3xMeltagun
-chimera

Veteran - 155
-3xMeltagun
-chimera

Veteran - 155
-3xMeltagun
-chimera

Veteran - 155
-3xMeltagun
-chimera

2xVendetta - 260
2xVendetta - 260

Demolisher - 355
-Melta Sponsons
Eradicator

Demolisher - 355
-Melta Sponsons
Eradicator

1995, 4 scoring, 14KP

The current option I'm considering is dropping a vendetta so I can upgrade a demolisher to Pask in an Executioner and plasma sponsons giving me 50 points to play with. I think it's less point efficent, but makes a scarrier target that will attract fire and take the heat off my vendettas/chimeras a bit better.

[MVB]

I would actually strongly applty your own critiques, at a first glance. You actually are incredibly light on troops, with only 30 guardsmen that can score, and in the already-hinted-at mega-vulnerable chimeras. Demolisher/Eradicator pairings are good, but you're shooting at 2 targets each per turn.

As for the above list, just for reference sake, it's not something you play like a "true" speed freaks. It's pretty easy to coverlayer chimera rushes when you've got a few squadrons of hellhounds to play around with. Ideall you're taking very little damage on the way in with ANY mechanized list, b/c you've got half a clue about how to set the cover up to that advantage.

The above is ok, but 2 nasty demolisher/eradicator pairings, both with limited-ish range, aren't going to threaten people enough to keep them from focus firing those more vulnerable chimeras first, and worrying about the demos later when the opponent doesn't have any scoring troops left, around ... oh ... turn 2 or 3.

[Darwinn69]

Bah, your right. It would help if I actually posted the correct list...I was missing a unit. Edited the post

[Darwinn69]

More to your point though...

Actually I feel my chimeras are less vulnerable in this situation. The tanks are being used as mobile terrain to block LoS and if thats not possible give me cover to my suqishy chimeras. Because of squad rules as long as they are alive they will keep moving. If I'm facing heavy fire the chimeras will be parked so that their front armor is directly behind the rear of the LRBT's, giving me a 3+ cover save in the front arc...assuming you even get LoS to them. Since the majority of the early anti-tank shots will have to be taken at armor 14. I only need 2 turns of cover before my chimeras are in range.

[MVB]

Thanks to the new lumbering rules, moving russes is kinda pewp, when sitting still and firing everything rocks so hard.

Moving 6" / turn sounds like a long game with you dishing out very little firepower.

Also, weird note but with eradicator and demolisher firing at once, most mixed weapon squads will be able to concentrate nocover saves on fewer models.

[Darwinn69]

Not really. The tanks are going to have to move forward a turn or two anyways to get into range, and I'll have vendetta support killing, or at least shaking, most anti-tank vehicles. I only need to keep the heat of the chimeras for 2 turns...really one turn if you count rushing and popping smoke.

It should play basically like this. Turn 1 move 6" forward and chimeras hide behind tanks...because of range and LoS restrictions most shooting has to be concentrated on the tanks which are very likely to survive. Turn 2 chimeras zip forward 12" and pop smoke...tanks most likely advance to get more things in demo cannon range. Turn 3 I should have at least 3 chimeras survive and be able to move 6" and be in range to fire meltas on any surviving high priority targets. Even if they manage to pop all the chimeras at that point the veterans are still close enough to walk and shoot things.

I've also considered dropping the vendettas to get more tanks and another veteran squad or two, but I like the vendetta models and rules so much that I would have a hard time doing that.

[Darwinn69]

This is Matts idea, but I may end up stealing it because it's such a cooler concept:

Command HQ - 180
-4xMeltas
-Creed

5xGrey Knight Terminators - 245

10xGrey Knights - 290
-2xIncenerators

10xGrey Knights - 290
-2xIncenerators

10xVeterans - 100
-3xMelta

10xVeterans - 100
-3xMelta

2xVendettas - 260
2xVendettas - 260
2xVendettas - 260

1995, 4 scoring, 9 KP

I may try to fiddle with points to get a priest in their for the terminators. I might end up playing with this list first as it will cost less $$ overall to build than my previous lists.

[MVB]

My reactions ...

a) Cool, but if they FAQ terminators in a valkyrie you're wasting money
b) Grey Knights are still the easiest things to kill for their points in 40k ... power armor for 25 points a pop w/out special ammo is pewp
c) Vendettas aren't as good as Valkyries, in most scenarios. I guess if you feel you need the anti-tank, but lascannons aren't great anti-tank, especially when all the vendettas are handicapped by a troop delivery role

It's good and fun, though, fo' sho', and will kick some peoples' asses all over the place
You can drop Creed for a command hq in general and get your eviscerator priest


I fear that the fewer valks you have in a list like this, and the fewer models, the worse you suffer when you don't get to go first. Also, the absence of astropaths/etc. makes outflanking dicey at best.

[Darwinn69]

So I was a bit bored at work today and what better way to pass the time then doing some list-hammering. My goal was to make a gunline guard. The traditional method is to spam normal guys and have some tank support. The problem is normal guys suck at range combat. Fortunatly the guard vehicles have gotten much better are good enough to carry the combat by themselfs with minimal input for the troops. The list plays pretty static, with 3-4 of the infantry squads combining most of the games and vendettas loading someone up and capturing objectives on turn 5/6. The vehicles provide massive amounts of firepower and overwealm them with armored targets (4 AV14, 9 AV12).

Command HQ (Hidden issuing orders)
-Morter

Infantry HQ (Hidden issuing orders)
-Morter

Infantry Squad (3-4 of these guys combine to get an actual morter barrage)
-Morter

Infantry Squad
-Morter

Infantry Squad
-Morter

Infantry Squad
-Morter

Veterans
-Lascannon
I like the 1 off lascannon on these guys to fire a BS4 weapon that I can issue orders too.


3xVendettas
Despite what people mathhammer, lascannons are still great long range anti-tank weapons. They will easily pop any light vehicle, and against heavy (av13+) 9 times out of 10 all you need to do is stun a vehicle so it doesn't shoot at you next turn which one vendetta squad will do that just fine. Also great against terminators and MC.

Extermanitor
-Plasma Sponson
Eradicator
Will eliminate any infantry and squad based so I can reliably fire the best one for the situation.

Extermanitor
-Plasma Sponson
Eradicator

3xMedusa
primary heavy tank destroyer and AP2 pieplates

Comes out to around 1975 with 25 points to spend. 6 scoring, 8 killpoints. 3xS10pieplates, 2xS6 ignore-cover pieplates, 10xPlasma cannon shots, 6x morter blasts, 10xtwin linked lascannon shots, 60 guardsmen.

edit: bah, didn't do my math right...only one unit of valkries

[flipperray]

Im not sure if you saw but that most recent list looks alot like mine, except i plan on outflanking my medusas.

HQ

-Company command squad w/ Lord Castellan Creed, chimera, astropath, x3 melta, flamer = 260

Elites

Troops

-Veteran squad w/ melta x3, chimera = 155

-Veteran squad w/ flamer x3 = 85

-Veteran squad w/ Bastonne, melta x3 = 160

-Veteran squad w/ Harker, chimera, flamer x3 = 195

Fast Attack

-Valkyrie w/ multiple rocket pods, heavy bolters = 140
-Valkyrie w/ multiple rocket pods, heavy bolters = 140

Heavy Support

-Leman Russ executioner w/ plasma sponsons, heavy bolter = 230

-Leman Russ executioner w/ plasma sponsons, heavy bolter = 230

-Medusa squadron = 405
-Medusa w/ medusa cannon, heavy bolter = (135)
-Medusa w/ medusa cannon, heavy bolter = (135)
-Medusa w/ medusa cannon, heavy bolter = (135)

[Darwinn69]

In my first post I was trying to do mechinized gunline artillery army and kept failing...the massed chimeras were too expensive and I couldn't afford the artillery support I wanted. After looking at your list I realized where I was going wrong and dropped the chimeras which freed up a lot of room and converted to direct heavy fire instead of barrage. With thoes two philosophy change this is what I came up with. It's funny that we came up with something fairly similar, but I think execution of the tactics will be quite different.

[Darwinn69]

Just random list-hammering today. Thought this would be a fun list and pretty solid too:

3xHydra /w Heavy Flamer- 225
3xHydra /w Heavy Flamer - 225
3xHydra /w Heavy Flamer - 225
Heavy flamers for a nasty suprise

DevilDog /w Multi-Melta 145
DevilDog /w Multi-Melta 145
DevilDog /w Multi-Melta 145

Command HQ - 145
-3xMelta
-Chimera /w Multilaser and Heavy Flamer


Command HQ - 145
-3xMelta
-Chimera /w Multilaser and Heavy Flamer

Veterans -155
-3xmelta guns
-Chimera /w Multilaser and Heavy Flamer

Veterans -155
-3xmelta guns
-Chimera /w Multilaser and Heavy Flamer

Veterans -155
-3xmelta guns
-Chimera /w Multilaser and Heavy Flamer

Veterans -155
-3xmelta guns
-Chimera /w Multilaser and Heavy Flamer


2020...little over on points but thats the general idea

[paidinfull]

Devildog = chem cannon?
I can never remember their stupid names. :)
If not I'm pretty sure the Melta ones are 135 with a hull MM.

What made you decide on the HVY Flamers on the Hydras?
I suppose so you intend to move 6" each turn and fire?

[Darwinn69]

It's the chem canon one...what ever it's call. Should be 130 + 15 for the multi-melta. Chem canon is defensive, so you can move 12" and fire both. I don't like the melta canon one as much...it's just a glorified multi-melta and since you want to take out tanks with it the odds of it scattering to a point where it's useless is pretty high.

Heavy flamers on the hydras gives them another dynamic instead of the stand off and shoot. If the battle lines start getting close to their position they can move up and provide a lot more hurting against horde armies with 3xheavy flamers than just standing back and shooting.

[MVB]

Chem Cannon one is Banewolf.

Also, I would go for Heavy Flamer + Chem Cannon instead of Multi Melta + Chem Cannon. ... you've got plenty of melta anyway, and the multi-meltas on the hellhound variants are BS3 with no orders allowed. Kind of a raw deal.

Heavy Flamer Chem Cannon on the other hand, is freakin' amazing ... and if you happen to go up against a mixed weapon 5 man marine squad, just don't fire the heavy flamer and kill 'em all. Every other target basically you are better off using both (this against the very, very retarded bell of lost souls argument that the heavy flamer is counterproductive to the killing of the chem cannon).


As for the Hydra ... I would think having 9 heavy bolter shots / squadron leading up to the hordies getting close, and still having those 9 to fire point blank at ap4 when they do get closer, ain't that raw a deal. The heavy flamers will be useful, but you're hurting yourself for every situation where another 9 anti-infantry or anti light vehicle rounds would otherwise come in handy. Keep the bolters IMO.

[paidinfull]

Mike raises really some valid points.
I think Hvy Flamers are best on Chimeras, if you plan on moving every turn or outflanking them, and as suggested on the Banewolf with the Chem Cannon.
Your logic is sound that it can, in theory, fire both, however, i'm not sure when you will want to fire a MM and flame a unit at the same time. For 15pts, its definitely one of the more expensive upgrades. If you took the MM SBT one, the Devildog, then I could see it as the role for that tank is AT.

The Hydras, I'm also a little surprised you're thinking of putting HVY flamers on them, as again, the unit is shooty but I suppose you could advance them 6" each turn and fire.

The drawback to that is that the Hydra has one of the longest reaches in the IG army, 48"(54" threat) for Light/Medium AT. There really are only drawbacks if you advance them. Also, keep in mind that the Hydra Advanced Targeting rule applies to the HB as well. Sure it's only going to work against: Rear shots, Land Speeders, Raiders & Piranha, but it's something to keep in mind.

[MVB]

Silly IG list, not one I'd advocate necessarily, but ...

This list, in most hands even, would almost find it impossible to lose objective missions without being controlled by a really, really bad player, against almost any opponent ...

It's boring on paper, but would be hilarious to deploy


Command HQ w/ 3 Meltaguns, Chimera w/ Heavy Flamer - Multilaser - 135
Command HQ w/ 3 Meltaguns, Chimera w/ Heavy Flamer - Multilaser - 135

Platoon HQ w/ 3 Meltaguns, Chimera w/ Heavy Flamer - Multilaser - 115
Guard Squad w/ Meltagun, Chimera w/ Heavy Flamer - Multilaser - 115
Guard Squad w/ Meltagun, Chimera w/ Heavy Flamer - Multilaser - 115
Guard Squad w/ Meltagun, Chimera w/ Heavy Flamer - Multilaser - 115

Platoon HQ w/ 3 Meltaguns, Chimera w/ Heavy Flamer - Multilaser - 115
Guard Squad w/ Meltagun, Chimera w/ Heavy Flamer - Multilaser - 115
Guard Squad w/ Meltagun, Chimera w/ Heavy Flamer - Multilaser - 115
Guard Squad w/ Meltagun, Chimera w/ Heavy Flamer - Multilaser - 115

Platoon HQ w/ 3 Meltaguns, Chimera w/ Heavy Flamer - Multilaser - 115
Guard Squad w/ Meltagun, Chimera w/ Heavy Flamer - Multilaser - 115
Guard Squad w/ Meltagun, Chimera w/ Heavy Flamer - Multilaser - 115
Guard Squad w/ Meltagun, Chimera w/ Heavy Flamer - Multilaser - 115

Platoon HQ w/ 3 Meltaguns, Chimera w/ Heavy Flamer - Multilaser - 115
Guard Squad w/ Meltagun, Chimera w/ Heavy Flamer - Multilaser - 115
Guard Squad w/ Meltagun, Chimera w/ Heavy Flamer - Multilaser - 115

29 "bunkered" meltaguns
111 lasguns
17 chimeras (17 multilasers, 17 heavy flamers)
140 infantry models
THIRTY FOUR KILLPOINTS (which is actually 17 "2 killpoint" vehicles, not as vulnerable as it sounds)
15 scoring units, 34 "contesting" units


In an objective mission, it would be nigh impossible to lose ... you could spend the entire game blanketing one objective with chimeras so that opponents couldn't even skimmer to within 3", and just blanket all the other objectives with chimeras to contest

This would be funny to play, competitive, but really really $$$$$ and probably boring :p

[paidinfull]

You know if you were able to find 100 pts, to make 1 platoon Outflank with Al'Rahem(70+Astropath) it could be a even more fun.

That is a shit load of shots and KPs though. :)

[Darwinn69]

I'd like to get a second opinion on this one. This is the list I'm planning on running in July:

HQ
Command HQ - 80
-3xMelta
(riding in Valkrie, makes a mobile threat that can take down anything)

Troops
Platoon HQ
4xFlamers
(riding in vendettas, rapid responce suqad for when they finally get to my lines. Since vendettas won't be moving far from the tanks it's the perfect place to put them to keep them safe.)

Platoon Squad - 50
Platoon Squad - 50
Platoon Squad - 50
Platoon Squad - 50
Platoon Squad - 50


Veterans - 90
-Lascannon
(I like 1 off lascannons to deal with stupid stuff like drop pods that I don't want to use one of my heavy hitting units to deal with)

Fast
Valkrie - 130
-MRP

2xVendetta - 260

Heavy
3xHydra - 225

2xExecutioners - 460
-Melta Sponsons

3xMedusa - 405

1950, 9KP, 7 scoring units.

I'm still debating on what to equip my squads with. I have 10 points per squad and the 3 choices I'm going between are morter/gernade launcher, Heavy Bolter, or Autocannon. I'm currently leaning heavy bolter, but I'd like to get a little input on what ya'll think would be the better weapon choice for infintry squads.

[MVB]

Mortar + GL is the way to go, with the points you have left.

This is basically b/c a small blast will VERY FREQUENTLY even hit 5-man spread out infantry squads for 2-3 hits ... in today's 40k. When even a non-bunched squad has 2 of them, you can theoretically get 5-6 hits off with just the 2 blasts, and frequently get 2-3 at least. That's more than you're likely to pull off with heavy bolters, and you become more mobile if you have to also ... at least the GL can always fire, and it can go up to S6 to at least threaten light armor and transports, if not be a statistical likelihood.

Seems the way to go.

It's a good list, multi-headed beast. Melta sponsons on the Executioners is BAD BAD BAD, though. 5 plasma blasts layered is freakin' sensational, and the meltas both cost more and suck way more ... the plasma blasts don't really "miss" all that often, they usually nick something, and it's way better than a BS3 single shot, whereas the multi-meltas are a 24" realistically 12" threat, where their points value is only made up if you're right in the face of somebody. Go with the plasma sponsons IMO.

I expect you'll be using bastion breachers on the medusas? You certainly don't need more high strength / low ap anti infantry after the exes, though I suppose your ability to target multiple squads may suffer somewhat from the squadron rules.

[paidinfull]

3 medusas, I feel, is a little overkill.
At 140 pts they will crush most vehicles in the game.

Mike i'm pretty sure it's 20 HB, 30 for MM, and 40 for PC... though I do agree it seems a little mismatched.

10 templates is a lot but I still worry about a unit of 5 marines running that big unit down... but that's just my experience of failing tons of LD 8. For 35pts making 50 guys LD 9, stubborn with a reroll, means you should outlast most units by sheer volume of attacks.

[paidinfull]

Also, do you find that having the vendettas in a squadron to be very effective? I know it's good for KP but I always find myself wanting to be able to target more than 1 vehicle with 6 TL lascannon shots.

[Darwinn69]

The MM sponsons are 10 points cheaper. The reason I included them is because currently the only thing I have that can reliably take out a landraider is the medusa's and the command HQ. This way I have another thread against

3 medusas are overkill, and I love overkill. With AV12 open topped they aren't the most survivable things out their. This way they can take some fire and still be effective. I'm not going to do the seige shells on the medusas. I want the large pie plates for when I come accross horde armies.

I'll take the suggestion about the gernade/morter under advisement. My big hesitation is that if I'm issuing order to the unit then the gernade/morter has the least effect. Where as if I did heavy bolter or autocannon the effect is much more dramatic, either twin-linking the autocannon vs. Vehicles or making horde armies reroll sucessfull cover saves.

[Darwinn69]

I haven't play tested it yet, but the reason for keeping the vendettas together is three fold:
1. Personal goal of keeping number of kill points in the single digets.
2. Vehicle squads are becoming much more prevelant. 6 shots at once has a much better chance at effecting an entire squad rather than having the glanced vehicles from the last shot take the penetrating hit from this round.
3. Harder to keep the wound allocation away from valuable squad members in eliete units like terminators or Nob Bikers etc.

But I will say I'm not that sold on the idea that I might be willing to split them up later if I see a need too.

[paidinfull]

Actually Ryan i think rerolling successful cover saves will be the most successful if you're spamming a lot of wounds, which the GL+Mortar should be. But then again Barrage (mortars) doesn't allow cover saves from intervening units. Also AP6 isn't going to pen a lot of armor and neither is AP4 for that matter.

It did just dawn on me that Re-roll successful cover saves is the most effective Order against Ork Bikes.

You should ask Rhett's experience with 3 TL autocannons shooting at his Eldar.
5 and I imagine you will have a lot of success.

[MVB]

Bring it down and Fire on my target are both orders that need to be given by a command HQ, and yours is running around in a Valkyrie.

Same can be said for your platoon hq even.

GL / Mortar doesn't rely on orders to be effective, but a Fire On My Target! can certainly help if you do run up against Orks in a KFF or Guard, or any # of things that only have a 5+ or 6+, and so are happier using their 4+ or KFF 5+ ... make 'em re-roll it.


You're going to need to move your troops from time to time. 50 guardsmen are super easy to kill, and it's even easier if they're sitting there ... the gl/mortar helps keep some firepower going when you're forced to budge, but is still very nice when stationary.


Anywho, just my $.02

Autocannons aren't any good against horde armies, they just don't have enough bullets.

[paidinfull]

Autocannons aren't any good against horde armies, they just don't have enough bullets.

I gotta disagree with you here Mike.
3x HB on average should yield 3 wounds against T4
3x AC on average should yield 2.5 wounds against T4

not a big difference
but when you take into consideration:
T5+ and Armor
ACs will do 2.5 to T5, 2 to T6
HB will do 2.25 to T5, 1.5 to T6

The problem here is they cost the same. The autocannon is by FAR the better buy.
I'm sure you might say something to the extent of bugs being T3 but even in that case you will want to shoot T4 warriors at minimum to kill synapse.

I recommend this unit for roughly the same cost.
4x AC 4x GL squads = 260
1x Commissar w/ PW = 45
305 points for LD 9 Stubborn, with a reroll, and a few extra crappy little power weapon attacks.
You're getting a lot more for just about the same points.

50 bodies also takes up a ton of space.

The other thing I mentioned in this build to Ryan was that First Rank Fire! will get you 48 Lasgun shots plus 4x S3 SBT plus 8x S7 shots. It definitely will put a hurt on any infantry. Of course this is contingent on whether he is able to give orders or not.

[Darwinn69]

I like where you are going with the AC/Gernade combo. I might just do that, with the exception of the commisar. LD9 is good if I take shooting casulties, but I don't want stubborn in this army. If my guys get into combat I want them to loose and run, that way I can shoot them next round.

That would leave me with 40 points to spend....I can get my 4'th melta gun for the command HQ, and maybe an officer of the fleet.

[paidinfull]

Lose and get run down you mean? Yeah, most things that will be chasing you will have you beat on initiative by at least 1 usually 2. You won't be able to survive HTH if you aren't Stubborn and trust me, you will lose HTH. You just want to drag out the combat to either overwhelm them with numbers or get lucky.
30 guardsmen killed a Daemon Prince over 3 full turns for me. That's needing 6's to wound. I lost all 6 rounds of combat by at least 3.
It's a war of attrition and when you are only killing 7/8 guardsmen a turn it takes forever to kill all 40guardsmen, but in the mean time if you are killing 1/2 maybe even 3... you are going to win that fight eventually.
You are welcome to not try the commissar but I think you will find he is well worth his points... assuming he doesn't get Telion sniped or Mind War'ed by Rhett!
Also you are testing Orders at LD9...

The two blob combos I found that are best...
AC+GL
Las+Plas

There really isn't any other reason to take anything else
Snipers - Low BS means even though it's 5pts it's worthless
Flamers - Really still best used in the Platoon Command as you are looking for shots down range from a stand and shoot
Meltas - The best AT for most of us, but you really want range on your static blobs

Mortars - S4... They're cheap, but I still think they suck
Heavy Bolters - Autocannons do it better for the same cost. +2 Strength for 1 less shot? Yes plz.
Missile Launchers - as Mike would say... Not enough bullets! BS3!

The las/plas is still fairly cheap at 85pts per 10 guardsmen.
TL Lascanons en masse are awesome against most Armor
Grouped AP2 for Heavy Infantry
S7 still has a chance vs AV11-12

A random idea I considered but haven't really messed around with too much.
Heavy weapons squads.
HOLD ON! Hear me out!

Take 4 squads of AC+GL with chimeras
Blob em
Take 4 squads of Heavy weapons
Turn 1 Embark them in the Chimeras
5 Fire points means all 3 can shoot out.

I'm thinking 75pts is the cheapest way to get 3 more AC in the list. I'm not sure about the 105pt Lascannon squad... not being able to have em TL kinda sux

[MVB]

Yeah, a giant guard blob that will run away and get run down pretty much instantly by a close combat specialist of any kind is a baddie idea.

The commissar is more valuable to you than the fleet officer, do that.

[paidinfull]

Something else you can do, though I'm not sure why or when you would, is that you can control when you want the IG blob to get run down or killed IF you take the commissar.

30-40 guys will hold up almost any unit for at least 2 turns.

When you want to shoot into the unit, pull the commissar as a casualty.
This will allow you to stall your opponents heavy hitters while you kill the rest of his advancing units, while ending the HTH battle on your terms.

More often than not though you will want him in the list.

[MVB]

Quite a good idea rite there.

[Darwinn69]

That's a good point. And I think I messed up my math somewhere...for some reason I'm looking at another 40 points free. I'll fiddle with some points and see what I can come up with.

[paidinfull]

HQ
Command HQ - 80
-3xMelta

Troops
Platoon HQ
4xFlamers - 50

Platoon Squad - 50
Platoon Squad - 50
Platoon Squad - 50
Platoon Squad - 50
Platoon Squad - 50


Veterans - 90
-Lascannon

Fast
Valkrie - 130
-MRP

2xVendetta - 260

Heavy
3xHydra - 225

2xExecutioners - 460
-Melta Sponsons

3xMedusa - 405
= 1950

[MVB]

Add in the Commissar, and you've got enough for a 4th melta in the command hq.

How much is a vox? With mobbing up, if it's only 5 points, giving one to a platoon squad might actually be a viable tactic.

[paidinfull]

You're testing on LD9 though... but sure, it's only 10pts and if you have the extra why not.

Also if you did the 4x AC+GL squads + Com W/PW you should have been 5pts over, which you could have just dropped 1 flamer from the Platoon Command.

[Darwinn69]

Yea, I see where I messed up my math. I'm going to add the commisar. So I could drop the flamer for the PW, or I could leave the PW and have 5 points to upgrade 1 medusa to the seige shells. I think the seige shell and flamer will do more for me than a PW on the commisar.

[paidinfull]

You know I'm not really sure you will need the siege shells. as you are firing 3 S10 Ordnance. You are pretty much guaranteed 1 hit...

The PW while it sux, is somehow still worth it for that 1 wound you get.

[Darwinn69]

So doing my favorite past time listhammering ;).

Todays itteration of guard would have been great under 4'th edition. But with a whopping 21 KP this isn't even close to competitive....although it does have a lot of firepower.

The theme is everything starts in reserves. It should all come in turn 2-3 either deeps striking or out flanking.

HQ
Command HQ - 120
4xMelta
-Astropath
(Deep striking in a valkyrie)

Command HQ - 120
4xMelta
-Astropath
(Deep striking in a valkyrie)
Eletes
5xStorm Troopers -105
-2xMelta Guns
(deep strike mission)

5xStorm Troopers -105
-2xMelta Guns
(deep strike mission)

5xStorm Troopers -105
-2xMelta Guns
(deep strike mission)

Troops

Platoon HQ - 175
-4xFlamers
-Al'Rahem
-Chimers /w Multilaser and Heavy Flamer

Squad - 110
-Gernade Launcher
-Chimera /w Multilarer and Heavy Flamer

Squad - 110
-Gernade Launcher
-Chimera /w Multilarer and Heavy Flamer

Squad - 110
-Gernade Launcher
-Chimera /w Multilarer and Heavy Flamer

Squad - 110
-Gernade Launcher
-Chimera /w Multilarer and Heavy Flamer

Squad - 110
-Gernade Launcher
-Chimera /w Multilarer and Heavy Flamer

Veterans
3xMelta
(Riding in a valkryie)

Fast Attack
Valkyrie - 130
-MRP

Valkyrie - 130
-MRP

Valkyrie - 130
-MRP

Heavy
3xHydra's - 225
(Coming in from reservers. I'd prefer this be something else that can outflank or deep strike, but this is still pretty good.)

Total: 1995

[paidinfull]

I have no idea what a Larer is, but it sounds NASTY!

Deep Striking Valks...
Why? They're huge and could easily scatter onto something forcing a mishap?
I really don't see a benefit behind this as they can Outflank, move 24" and your guys can Deep Strike out of it along the path. Seems a lot more useful that way.

From my experience using Al Rahem... it's great having all those Chimeras coming on 1 roll and on the flank. It's really awesome... except that the chimeras are carrying regular guardsmen. I think the way you have them is fine, cheap scoring units and equipped accordingly, but I might suggest giving them all meltas as the one thing you will see with that build is those units lack AT. My current mindset is that regular guardsmen shouldn't go in Chimeras.
My Reasoning is:
Low BS
No Orders
Too many KP

Having everything Outflank is pretty interesting though.

Currently, I have seen informal John Spencer FAQs that say 2x Astropath doesn't stack, so IMO there isn't a benefit to having 2... dropping that would give you points to do the meltas but you could also take an officer of the Fleet.

If you want to do a pure outflank army, Creed, is a good upgrade for giving the Hydras Outflank. 12x TL BS3 on most side armor will shred whatever you are shooting at. I have found 2 are pretty amazing... 3 will be awesome.

I have toyed with taking Stormies in the same capacity you have... the biggest drawback I see however is still their cost @ 105pts. They will however reliably hit, what... 55% of the time?

I like it, concept wise though, as it's similar to my current list, but with more appropriate unit choices. :)