Is Russia insane?

[Karmashock]

I've been wondering for a while what the fuck the Russians think they're doing...

Not long ago they came out of a horrible communist dictatorship and it looked for awhile like they were going to go places... but I have yet to hear good news from that place for well over 6 years...

it's always something... throwing free media people in jail... selling mach 3 missiles to Iran... consolidating money and power in the state... A growing re-identification with its USSR past... a growing dependence on the military industrial complex...

and now this
Russia's nationalists call for ban on Jewish groups
http://sg.news.yahoo.com/050125/1/3q3ee.html

I mean... wtf... are they stupid, insane, or do they just prefer living like animals under a tyrannical regime...

It's beyond me... Kind of sad when you think about it all... we want to ally with Russia... they have potential... but if this keeps up they'll have to suffer through decades or perhaps centuries of this stupidity before they're ready for a strong alliance that isn't based on inherently anti social militarism.

I'm on a Russian forum... i post there about once a week... all they talk about are their weapons and seem to be blissfully unaware that they're pissing their future away.

I mean... literally every thread will have some reference to some weapon or other... they even think they have an Anti balistic missile shield that works... I don't have the heart to tell them it's been obsolete since the late 60s.

[shutupandshave]

Well he has a point that the Jews run the banks of the world... I would suggest that he gets himself a bank and runs it better than the Jews if he wants other people to be in charge of the money.

I think however, this is being taken out of context a little - this isn't Russian as a whole that is calling for this, it's a handful of Russian politicians.

That said, I think it's disgraceful that the people elect representatives that think like this... however I dont think it's cause to break off international relations just yet.

[Karmashock]

... this is Putin, the exKGB guy, doing this... and the Russians seem to like him because he's "strong" and makes them feel good about themselves...

... oh well... back to tyranny they go...

[Karmashock]

I'd just like to add, that the Jews do NOT run the banks of the world. I don't know where this paranoia comes from but it's just not true. Most of the banks in the US and Britain, which are among the largest in the world... I know for a FACT aren't run by Jewish people...

and it wouldn't bother me if they were... who cares? Honestly, what's the difference? But what makes this claim so silly is that it's not even remotely true.



Now, I do believe it is true in Russia... some how most of the old soviet assets were sold off at government auction and Jewish Russians bought them. I don’t know how those auctions were conducted, but I don’t have much respect for their standards when it comes to corruption… so anything is possible.

if that was a corrupt sale, then fine... be pissed... but that was your own fault and the proper response is to BUY those properties back at market cost and RE-sell them in a way that you can be both happy with and proud of years later. For instance is you forbid jews from buying anything, then you're unlikely to be proud of it.


sigh... fucking stupid Russians... prior to about 6 years ago we were ready to give them a huge trade package... we wanted to rabidly build up Russia’s economy... but we backed off when we realized they still hadn’t figured it out.

[Morpheus]

There you go generalizing again. Russians have about as much say on decisions of their government and political groups as you have on when our troops will be leaving Iraq. Putin - I'll use your phrase: "nobody is perfect". He has some good sides, he has some bad sides. People in here can be called "f*cking stupid americans" for electing politicians who allowed for Watergate scandal and some other fiascos.

Why don't you live one year in there, you'll change your opinions very quickly. If you survive...

[Karmashock]

Why don't you live one year in there, you'll change your opinions very quickly. If you survive...
This final line just made a mockery of the rest of your post.

Why should my life be in danger just by expressing a political position? No American would be in danger for doing so... if Russia is different, then you've just made my point. Russia is moving towards tyranny. :oohoo:

[Dezmo1218]

Russia never ceases to entertain me. Poor, poor Russia. (Slight pun intended!)

[Karmashock]

(I love your avatar... fallout is the shit)

[Dezmo1218]

If by 'the shit' you mean the best damned RPG ever made on this plane of existence...

I totally agree.

[Morpheus]

Point was, don't be calling a whole nation stupid. Do you have nothing to say about my first paragraph? I'm shocked...

[Karmashock]

(yep, play vampires: Bloodlines. It's a new game made by the same people. ;) )
Point was, don't be calling a whole nation stupid. Do you have nothing to say about my first paragraph? I'm shocked...
I'm not here to be nice, I'm here to comment on what I see as illogical and masochistic behavior by the nation state known by the designation "Russia".

The layers to their issue does not change the fact that they are hurting themselves in the present and future.

They are in some ways trying to be something new and yet harkening back to the old USSR too.


See what I am saying for the points. Explain Russian behavior as a nation.

I cannot do so unless I assume it has some rather grand ambitions... most of them violent... If I do that, then Russian foreign politics make more sense to me. However, if they truly are thinking like that... then they're headed for a lot of pain... not from the US... but from themselves.

[Dezmo1218]

I already have, kiddo. Jack is the best NPC I've ever come across in a RPG. -=D

[Karmashock]

I already have, kiddo. Jack is the best NPC I've ever come across in a RPG. -=D
(a gamer after my own heart ;D )

[Dezmo1218]

You and I shall get along like fire hoses.... Or not... You know what I mean.

[Karmashock]

unless you look something like this
http://www.vampirebloodlines.com/screens/BS12.jpg
I think now is the time when I should start getting homophobic and back away...

[Morpheus]

Karma, it is not easy to just like that completely reverse the political system in a country the size of Russia.

[Dezmo1218]

Yikes, that's a early screenie of Jeanette. I had a PS'ed sig with her in a black/white/red color scheme, but lost it in a recent format. Bollocks.

[Karmashock]

Karma, it is not easy to just like that completely reverse the political system in a country the size of Russia.
they're going BACKWARDS! :wtf:

[Dezmo1218]

Karma, where do you host your sig? :) I've been working on one.

[Karmashock]

(www.photobucket.com)

[stats]

Churchill said it best: (i've said this before)

Russia is a puzzle, wrapped in a riddle, wrapped in an enigma...

To understand russia Karma, i suggest you take out ur favourite pants, place them securely on ur head. Do a handstand and put ur left put into your mouth and think of kittens and grizzley bears...

I can't do it - but i think it would help.

(Russia is probably a dictatorship cleverly disguised as a democracy-i think, who knows)

[Karmashock]

I don't think it sees what its giving up... and if it isnt' free, then it did... and the tyrants quickly pulled away before it ruined their chances at unconditional rule.

[Karmashock]

See... this is the shit I'm talking about...
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1022559,00.html
They've apparently upped their spies to coldwar level... which was enough in the US to start the red scare up.

What teh fuck do these people think they're doing?

Do they have ANY FUCKING CLUE what they're messing with?

They're setting off alarms all over our system... This is going to force us to infilatrate them... we have no choice now.

Welcome back to cloak and dagger.

L&P, KS.

[Morpheus]

Who cares? Do you have any say in this political mess? I don't care what you say, regular people(voters) have no say in this sort of political game.

[Karmashock]

What do we have control over in your opinion?

Anything?

So we're meaningless peasents that should just ignore anything that doesn't effect our cows and wheat?

You might consider yourself a peon, but I'm not.

If that's what drove our thinking, then we never would have become an independent country. We never would have sought the vote...

That's quite literally the thinking of a slave.

L&P, KS.

[Morpheus]

You have your opinions, I have mine.

[Karmashock]

your opinion is that your opinion doesn't matter... and I agree. ;)

[Critta]

... this is Putin, the exKGB guy, doing this... and the Russians seem to like him because he's "strong" and makes them feel good about themselves...

... oh well... back to tyranny they go...

What exactly is it that you think Putin is doing?

If you think the anti-semetism is anything to do with him, you are very wrong. The bill was signed by "20 members of the 450-seat State Duma lower house of parliament", I very much doubt that Putin, being President and all would have anything to do with this bill or the lower houses of Parliament.

Having done some more research into the subject, I have discovered this bill was signed by members of the Rodina & Liberal Democratic parties (nationalist) and the Communist Party. Putin is supported in the Duma by the United Russia party. This furhter convinces me that he had nothing to do with this.

As far as the spies thing goes, "This is going to force us to infilatrate them... we have no choice now."

You don't think you already have spies in Russia? I find that very, very hard to believe.

[Morpheus]

That's ok, Critta, he only sees one side of the story. Easy to sit back here and chat about it, try living over there.

[Karmashock]

What exactly is it that you think Putin is doing?
I think I associated putting with other things that he has personally done... getting free media arrested, centralizing wealth in the state, etc.

The Jewish thing is just a sign of further degeneration in their politics.

You don't think you already have spies in Russia? I find that very, very hard to believe.
There is a difference between 'some' spying or 'light' spying and COLD WAR LEVEL SPYING!

Do you know how many spies they sent over here? Any clue how ruthless they were about getting as deep into our system as possible? They had agents that had personal access to the president...

every level was compromised.

This is a declaration of information war.... and war they shall have. We'll root them out and counter infiltrate them.


Our response to the Russians has always been... if you want dance we've you'll find us ready to tango.
That's ok, Critta, he only sees one side of the story. Easy to sit back here and chat about it, try living over there.
Why do you have to spoil a good discussion by being such a cheap little bitch? Seriously... what the hell is wrong with you that you think a comment like that would even advance your perspective? it's pathetic.

Sorry for the flame... but that was just ridiculous.

[DrunkenUno]

Whatever... I've been saying it for 2 years now all over these (and the last) forums. The Cold war never ended, and you're an idiot if you think it did.

[shutupandshave]

except now china is gunna get involved too

[stats]

You know, i gotta tell you karma - u think the uk doesnt have spies in america? you think the us doesnt have spies here? and i imagine the spying going on in all countries is anything but light!

[shutupandshave]

/me spies on stats

o.O

It's pretty tough to say how widespread spying is, without knowing what spying really means.

I read about US events without people knowing I do... is that spying?

A British person working for the government in the US reports a conversation between two regular americans saying they're fed up with the UK... is that spying?

Tough call.

As for the cutting holes in roofs and absailing down to take mico-photo's of the newest and greatest tank - I am not convinced too much of that goes on.

[Tank0]

since the end of the cold war intelligence gathering has shifted to industrial spionage , now the fin de siecle feeling has ended with 9/11 spying began shifting back from the companies to the state .


it has never ended just changed form for a little while .


USA,EU,Russia and China are all trying to steal from eachother and dont forget australia ( ECHELON ) . the most important fact still remains that the major players aren t countering eachother by default .

i mean if the iraq war had happened in the cold war , saddam and the muslims would have received help from china and russia just because they where anti-usa .just imagine what bin laden could have done with a russian meganuke ( 160 KT like the mk6 , http://nuclearweaponarchive.org/Usa/Weapons/Allbombs.html ,
http://nuclearweaponarchive.org/Usa/Weapons/Mk6.jpg
http://www.spusa.org/issue/nuclear_weapons/nuclear_brief.html )

the new power bases are building for this century with the weapons build up that goes with it .counterintellingence is the least of your problems

[Karmashock]

You know, i gotta tell you karma - u think the uk doesnt have spies in america? you think the us doesnt have spies here? and i imagine the spying going on in all countries is anything but light!
I think I've pointed out that the American CIA is run by ass clowns...

so you're likely getting the better deal... Besides... the US and UK don't really have many secrets between each other... at least I don't think so...

I'm pretty sure we'd sell you anything we've got...

We trust you... at least... we do when you're friendly to us... if you started calling us nazis, we'd likely start to keep a few secrets...
=====================
i mean if the iraq war had happened in the cold war , saddam and the muslims would have received help from china and russia just because they where anti-usa .just imagine what bin laden could have done with a russian meganuke ( 160 KT like the mk6 ,
More likely that we would have used them against hte soviets actually... the chinese and russians were anti religion... we're not.


the new power bases are building for this century with the weapons build up that goes with it .counterintellingence is the least of your problems
We're working on a missile shield for that reason...


It'll seem like a stupid thing to invest in... until we have it.


Until then, we'll just make sure not to run afoul of nuclear powers.

[Tank0]

It'll seem like a stupid thing to invest in... until we have it.


and then you ll realise how stupid it is .

- will it be capable to stop all incoming missiles ( imagine 400+ missiles comming at ya )
- will it work against low flying cruisemissiles
- will it stop terrorists nukes ? a containership docking in new york habor with one nuke on board
- will it prevent suitcase nukes entering the US
etc .....


the best defense is good foreign relations , like it or not but sometime somehow you will have to rely on the good intentions of your friends .


i know you don t play homeworld but bombing a gravitywell to jump in a bc is a old and common tactic . if bin laden's buddies drive several trucks into key structures of the shield the sky is wide open for at least several hours.

Al quada arent peasants with slingshots , they have proven to the world that they can pull off CIA/KGB like actions . if they want to nuke the states rest assured they will organize and plan it like clockwork .

[Karmashock]

and then you ll realise how stupid it is .

- will it be capable to stop all incoming missiles ( imagine 400+ missiles comming at ya )
- will it work against low flying cruisemissiles
Why do you think it's taking us so long? There have been effective single nuke ABMs in place since the 60's... they're just not very practical if you get a lot shot at you or there are cruise missiles.


We're working on super interceptors.... missiles that can reliably hit and destroy anything… and laser cannons… No, I’m serious… effective laser cannons. The smallest we can make them is about the size of 2 story building… and with that you can only fire about 12 times… But it’s an instant one hit one kill system.
- will it stop terrorists nukes ? a containership docking in new york habor with one nuke on board
- will it prevent suitcase nukes entering the US
etc .....
The missile shield is for conventional protection. If we go to war, we'll close our boarders and filter our shipments.

We should have that in place before the shield is done. We’re already randomly x raying containers and doing a great deal more to track them.


the best defense is good foreign relations , like it or not but sometime somehow you will have to rely on the good intentions of your friends .
We mostly do rely on that. If that weren't the case, we'd be at war with damn near everyone.

But you can't be everyone's friend. You’re going to have an enemy... and that enemy is going to want you dead. Just being liked by everyone can get you hated. The US is definitely a popular country.


i know you don t play homeworld but bombing a gravitywell to jump in a bc is a old and common tactic . if bin laden's buddies drive several trucks into key structures of the shield the sky is wide open for at least several hours.
Any decent system will be redundant.

Al quada arent peasants with slingshots , they have proven to the world that they can pull off CIA/KGB like actions . if they want to nuke the states rest assured they will organize and plan it like clockwork .
They have no 'people', they're nuts. No government in the world gives them total access. Not one. They're placated only.

Will the US get nuked? Sure... its going to happen eventually, no matter what we do. So the world might as well be a better place in the mean time.


We're tired of being afraid and we're sure as shit not going to cower in fear.


Go ahead and fucking nuke us. Have fun with our response whoever decides to commit suicide.

Love and Peace, Karmashock.

[shutupandshave]

We mostly do rely on that. If that weren't the case, we'd be at war with damn near everyone.
You HAVE pissed off almost everyone.
The Chinese/Asia, the Russians, Europe, the Middleast... that's nearly everyone.

[Karmashock]

No we haven't. Most of the world remains our friend.

We've just pissed off a few douches that have unusually large lungs.

Most of the governments that gave us shit are coming back as they see it's only going to go badily for them if they keep it up.

[Critta]

Most of the governments that gave us shit are coming back as they see it's only going to go badily for them if they keep it up.

They may be coming back for now, but keep making the same mistakes and they will not be so ready to do so.

[shutupandshave]

China Russia and the Muslim world make up more than half the world

Therefore most of the world is not your friend.

[Karmashock]

They may be coming back for now, but keep making the same mistakes and they will not be so ready to do so.
We only lose fair weather friends and those that rush to the side they see as strongest.

We've mollified the fair weather crowd and shown that we're much stronger then was suggested by our detractors.

If anything our power and pursuasiveness has increased.


I will never buy into this philosophy of doing nothing... it does nothing but breed rot.
China Russia and the Muslim world make up more than half the world

Therefore most of the world is not your friend.
nor your friend.

Think before you type.

[shutupandshave]

I will take that as an apology for making typical Americanised generalisations, and let the rest of the people on this board realise for themselves that I never stated that half the world was the friend of the UK...

[Morpheus]

Sorry for the late responce, Karma, but you need to shut the hell up about the choices Russian people are making right now. Country went through some serious changes and some people took advantages of them, while the majority is still suffering. Crime rates are getting worse, economy is really low. Putin may not be the perfect answer, but exactly who was the better one? Putin is cracking down on crime and is trying to bring up the economy.
You're living in Cali, probably have a few cars, nice house, etc. Now you're bitching and whining about choices people make who live with high crime and poor economy. Easy to judge others when you don't know what's it like.

Seriously man, stop being an asshole, STFU, sit back and enjoy your life. You think you have high morals? Ha, piece of cake, when you have a nice life. Try living as a street bum in Seattle, asking for money on the corners. Your god damned morality will evaporate in no time.

[Karmashock]

I will take that as an apology for making typical Americanised generalisations, and let the rest of the people on this board realise for themselves that I never stated that half the world was the friend of the UK...
Take it as you can, it was intended to point out that you were using false logic again.


No nation can count that many nations as friends.


No matter how nice you are someone will hate you... the best you can go for is being ignored.


In this sense, the US has a LOT of friends... more then most nations... and is easily considered a popular nation.
=====================
Country went through some serious changes and some people took advantages of them, while the majority is still suffering. Crime rates are getting worse, economy is really low. Putin may not be the perfect answer, but exactly who was the better one? Putin is cracking down on crime and is trying to bring up the economy.
What he's doing is only going to make that worse. He's killing his economy, pumping up the military, and making people more subserveint.


The US went through a period not unlike what the russians are going through now AFTER the Civil War. If we had done what putin is doing, then we'd still be in the shit.

You're living in Cali, probably have a few cars, nice house, etc. Now you're bitching and whining about choices people make who live with high crime and poor economy. Easy to judge others when you don't know what's it like.
The real question is WHERE this policy will take them? Only to bad places.

If what they're doing can only make it worse, then whatever they're doing is wrong.


I'm calling them insane because they have great potiental. Nations like the US want to invest in Russia... we want them to counter china. We want them be the big power in the area that people look for support.

However, they'll remain poor and feared until they stop this stupidity. The US cannot support them.

Love and peace, Karmashock.

[shutupandshave]

Take it as you can, it was intended to point out that you were using false logic again.

False logic

most doesn't equal more than half now?

Now by friends you mean people that are not directly trying to bomb you.

And why tell me to think before I type, as if we were talking about "MY" friends at all?
General insult? Just being rude because you were wrong?
Nevermind.

[Karmashock]

I said most countries are the US's friend and you listed some nations that aren't anyone's friends.

Those that are sociable are generally to be regarded as our friends. List some reasonable countries that you wouldn't include as our friends?

List some nations that aren't our friends but are yours?

Your logic is false in the same way that many of your arguements are false. You have preconcieved goal and so you make an arguement where you are right. Unfortunately, either because my arguements are good or you're not very good at making counter arguements, you seem to make impossible conditions that render the whole thought process invalid.

Love and peace, Karmashock.

[shutupandshave]

I said most countries are the US's friend and you listed some nations that aren't anyone's friends.
The Muslim world is a nation now?
I listed countries containing more than half the worlds people. More than half the worlds population are in countries that the US is hostile towards...


List some nations that aren't our friends but are yours?
This has nothing to do with it. This is not UKvsUS, it almost never is with me - this is "karma said something and it's not true".

You said "more than half the world is friendly to the US" I proved it wasn't based on the fact that the US is hostile to China, Russia and the majority of the muslim world, and those three entitites contain more than half the world. That's all there is too it.

[Morpheus]

Russia is not an acre of some land, it is the largest country in the world. It has a long history, plenty of resources, and plenty of people with good heads on their shoulders. It will get through the crisis, just give people more time to figure things out and see what's going on. And if it ends up being something that US doesn't agree with - there's no surprise there, the two didn't like each other for a century.

[Karmashock]

The Muslim world is a nation now?
I listed countries containing more than half the worlds people. More than half the worlds population are in countries that the US is hostile towards...
first, many muslim nations are our allies.
second, any one of them that is our enemy is the enemy of just about everyone.


This has nothing to do with it. This is not UKvsUS, it almost never is with me - this is "karma said something and it's not true".
Actually, it is true. Most nations are our friends. Not our allies, but friendly.

You said "more than half the world is friendly to the US" I proved it wasn't based on the fact that the US is hostile to China, Russia and the majority of the muslim world
Nope.
We're on good terms with the chinese.
The Russians, dispite their nonsense, are playing ball with us.
And the muslim world isn't and has never been our enemy. Pakistian, amoung others, are friends.

So do you have a point? No. You tried to have a point by being anal. It has not and will not ever work.


Show me all the firends we could get by doing <whatever you think we're doing wrong>... lets see who we could add to the list or strengthen!

what do we have to do to get more nations to like us :)

Russia is not an acre of some land, it is the largest country in the world. It has a long history, plenty of resources, and plenty of people with good heads on their shoulders. It will get through the crisis, just give people more time to figure things out and see what's going on.
I hope so

And if it ends up being something that US doesn't agree with - there's no surprise there, the two didn't like each other for a century.
Oh and why do you think that is? :rolleyes:

[shutupandshave]

Actually, it is true. Most nations are our friends. Not our allies, but friendly.
We were talking the world, not "nations"

Nope.
We're on good terms with the chinese.
The Russians, dispite their nonsense, are playing ball with us.
And the muslim world isn't and has never been our enemy. Pakistian, amoung others, are friends.
You treat your friends pretty apallingly then - judging by the things you've said about them on here.

what do we have to do to get more nations to like us
Stop attacking countries under false pretences and start listening to what the rest of the international community thinks.

[Karmashock]

We were talking the world, not "nations"
How would you define the world?

as something that is no one's friend I would imagine. That's the way your mind works.


You treat your friends pretty apallingly then - judging by the things you've said about them on here.
I think some of them are doing things that are self destructive.

I wish no harm on any people.

Stop attacking countries under false pretences and start listening to what the rest of the international community thinks.
what would htat change? I can't see that anyone is regarding us differently except in the positive.

most of the tyrannies are taking us more seriously now at leaset... so I don't see why I should get excited.

[shutupandshave]

as something that is no one's friend I would imagine. That's the way your mind works.
That's the way you think my mind works... no I would not define the world like that - I would define the world, in this sense, as the people in it - and therefore when you say the majority of the world is our friends, you mean the majority of the people... please stop the petty insults.

I wish no harm on any people.
Lies, how about the people you would shoot if they burgled your house? They're still people?

what would htat change? I
In answer to your question, it would make more people like you.

[Karmashock]

That's the way you think my mind works... no I would not define the world like that - I would define the world, in this sense, as the people in it - and therefore when you say the majority of the world is our friends, you mean the majority of the people... please stop the petty insults.
you define it as you must to remain credible. I care nothing for your ego or mine. I want to have a discussion, and you seem disinterested in that when it goes beyond your ego.

as the prospect of playing this game with you bores me.


Lies, how about the people you would shoot if they burgled your house? They're still people?
again, anal, but not constructive.



In answer to your question, it would make more people like you.
neglect will only give the tyrants room and time.

We don't intend to give them a chance.

[shutupandshave]

okay, well that you're opinion, however you didn't listen to people and now everyone hates you. They fear you... not just tyrants, regular people.

I fear the US. I fear that the US is going to continue to do the things it's doing, and fuck up the world. I didn't feel that before you ignored the UN and invaded a country.

Most people in the UK (75% or so according to some survey I have no chance of digging up again) think the world is less safe now. We feel less safe because of the US foreign policy.

[Karmashock]

okay, well that you're opinion, however you didn't listen to people and now everyone hates you. They fear you... not just tyrants, regular people.
Only those that politically benifit by spreading that fear. You're being manipulated to their ends and I have seen nothing in your media that shows that you are aware of this.

I fear the US. I fear that the US is going to continue to do the things it's doing, and fuck up the world. I didn't feel that before you ignored the UN and invaded a country.
Fear what? Invading you? Give me a fucking break... we're not going to mess with any democracy let alone europe, let alone a prime nato member, let alone fucking england.

You're like our god damn brother... if the US went evil, we'd deliever some of the spoils to your shores out of reverence...

attacking you is unthinkable.

Most people in the UK (75% or so according to some survey I have no chance of digging up again) think the world is less safe now. We feel less safe because of the US foreign policy.
They're frightened by change.


Understand this:
The world is NOT static.
The world will continue to change FOREVER.
Boarders will change.
Cultures will spit and merge
Religions will be born and die.
Empires will rise and fall.

This is the world. We have the power to influence the future and we will not let it slip through our fingers.

It will be a world based upon freedom.
It will be a world based upon human dignity.
It will be a world that thrives on change.
It will be a world that hungers for growth and human excellence.
Individualism will be valued and respected.

And backing it all up will be a growing core of democratic nations with the resources and vitality to back it all up.


If we don't act then the lesser powers will have a chance to make their own mark upon the future. The will do so selfishly and with no regard toward the future of humanity.


Understand that what likely is the most frightening about me is that I am an Idealist. But we are not without our deep practicality. Everything is backed up by the deepest and most intense practicality avaliable. The economics, the sociology, the psychology, and the geopolitics are all highly practical. It is the culture at the ground level that is idealist and the system, if engineered to the other practical specifications, can bear that load.


This is not a world anyone but a despot should fear. It will not mean a loss of culture except in areas where the culture is crushing human liberities. Those things will have to go away anyway. They cause deep international problems that are nearly always the root cause of war.


We have no faith in the UN to keep peace. The whole system is and has been in decay for a generation. We can see the decay. So we are changing the system to something that can last. We can create a system that sustains peace by both WANTing peace and having the POWER to keep it. We are freeing the world and taking power away from those that cause the problems in the first place. As far as we can see, there is no other way. The current system is rotting and you can't fix it. It's systemically flawed.

Love and Peace, Karmashock.

[shutupandshave]

Fear what? Invading you? Give me a fucking break... we're not going to mess with any democracy let alone europe, let alone a prime nato member, let alone fucking england.
No, if you read the rest of my SENTANCE, you will glean the answer to that question.

Karma, I dont think I'm the one being brainwashed... you've invaded another country to infect it (your words) with your ideologies.

[Karmashock]

THere is nothing you've said that I haven't heard from my own people. We are aware and are doing our best to contain what corruption there is.

As to our goals, it is to free the world. I hope that they stay muslim and keep their local dress to the extent that they are comfortable with it. I hope that they save 99 percent of their culture and are all the better for it.

But they must be free. It has to happen.

[Papa Smurf]

okay, well that you're opinion, however you didn't listen to people and now everyone hates you. They fear you... not just tyrants, regular people.

I fear the US. I fear that the US is going to continue to do the things it's doing, and fuck up the world. I didn't feel that before you ignored the UN and invaded a country.

Most people in the UK (75% or so according to some survey I have no chance of digging up again) think the world is less safe now. We feel less safe because of the US foreign policy.

:thumbup totally agree with that as do just about everyone i know.

THere is nothing you've said that I haven't heard from my own people. We are aware and are doing our best to contain what corruption there is. That oil thing though is pretty bad i know its not the American government but war profitering, man if that was WW2 we would of had them lined up and shot for that, every country has corruption its is impossible to stop, we have just had companies rip off our private finance innicative, ie stealing money from schools. But glad to see you admit there is corruption.

As to our goals, it is to free the world. I hope that they stay muslim and keep their local dress to the extent that they are comfortable with it. I hope that they save 99 percent of their culture and are all the better for it.

But they must be free. It has to happen.

You see there you go again who is America to decide what is good for other people, who are you to say they must be free surly that is a decision they can make for them selves, as much of eastern europe has over the last 20 years, why must you enforce freedom (by dropping thousands of tonnes of munnitions on them and killing them). However i actually disagree with you there I do not think your actions in the world have anything to do with humanitarian matters (if i did i would have the up most respect for you, and what the), i do not think your government did either on the invading of Iraq or Afganistan. This whole notion of doing it for the people of Iraq is just a media weapon to deflect guilt and stop the questions about the reason America and the rest of us went to war. You have to say "well we are helping them people", or why else are you there killing over 14,000 innocent civilians, WoMD well there are none, Al Quida none of them there either.

Here is a little visual reinforcment for you
http://www.mykeru.com/bodycount.html#iraqi

Personally i would prefer the number to be the otherway round 1299 Iraq's dead and 14770 US and allied troops dead would be far more acceptable to me. But then again i suppose those 14770 have been freed in a way.

[Karmashock]

you've just been added to my ignore list.

the first and only one.

I've asked you to stop flaming and you won't.

[Papa Smurf]

tell me where the flame is?

Can some one please point it out, as despite writing that i seem to be unaware of its content, either that of Karma has been at the Crack again.

[EDIT]They say ignorance is bliss, so you must be elated.

[shutupandshave]

WTF, how the hell did Papa flame you?

[Karmashock]

I'd quote him, but I can't see his posts any more :D

[Papa Smurf]

maybe the fact that i would prefer 14770 soliders dead over 14770 civilians, because they would be americans mainly that would of died after all and any american seems to be worth 5.7 billion of the rest of us to Karma.

or maybe because i disagree with him.

and on that point would Saddam of killed that many before he died, probably not, he was an evil bastard but was prone to only killing people that threatened him, there is the little incident after our first war in Iraq where he killed many Shia and Kurds were killed in the up rising but a place the blame for that firmly at the feet of the Americans after all they betrayed them, promised that if the rebeled and fought America and the rest of us would help them, and what did we do, fuck all pulled back then watch them get gases on TV, excellent work. As i remember we dropped letters to them asking them to rebel from G. Bush Senoir, no wounder the Shia have not been as welcoming as we had hoped we may forget history all to fast (recent threads have shown that) they do not, the marsh Shia were totally wiped out.

[shutupandshave]

I dont think Saddam is dead Papa, I also think the gassings were before the first Iraq war.

[Papa Smurf]

Yes there were gasings before, however Saddam drained the marshes and gased and attacked the rest after the up raising did he not? You have me doubting myself now. i am not saying he is dead my mistake mistype should be dies not died, he is about to go on trial.

[Papa Smurf]

http://www.iraqfoundation.org/projects/edenagain/2003/ajan/29_hrw.html

While it does not mention the gassings directly, it does state the real persecuted was post 1990, i.e. after the war, apparently the Marsh Arabs were relatively ignored before that by central government.

[shutupandshave]

I dont think there were any gassings after the war. It's my understanding that the gasses that did take place were against rebels and occupants.

[Morpheus]

...
It will be a world based upon freedom.
It will be a world based upon human dignity.
It will be a world that thrives on change.
It will be a world that hungers for growth and human excellence.
Individualism will be valued and respected...


Heh, this reminded me of your discussion of communism - how the communism is unnatural to the human kind. I think your perfect world is just as unnatural to humans.

You're trying to bring your ideals on others and somehow think that it fits everyone else perfectly and they all will live happily ever after. You've got to remember that not everyone thinks like you. This is your ideal world, others have their own ideas.
There's only one real thing from your ideals that I think fits everyone: ability to voice their opinions. But I think that what what US have right now isn't the answer to everyone else, they should develop the means of doing so on their own, without any pressure. And delivering it by force is not an answer, it produces more negaitve results than it does positive ones.

[Karmashock]

Heh, this reminded me of your discussion of communism - how the communism is unnatural to the human kind. I think your perfect world is just as unnatural to humans.
So is driving cars and wiping your feet, but this is the first time I've heard someone say its better to live like primates.

We can't afford to have the tyrants out there... not with the world becoming smaller and technology becoming more powerful.

One nut with too much access and the whole species burns out like an old light bulb.

You're trying to bring your ideals on others and somehow think that it fits everyone else perfectly and they all will live happily ever after. You've got to remember that not everyone thinks like you. This is your ideal world, others have their own ideas.
Very well... then they can vote to live in tyranny.


How can you say people want to live in chains? That's the same kind of logic that racist southerners used to justify slavery. They said they weren't fit to live independently. It was bullshit then and it's bullshit now.

There's only one real thing from your ideals that I think fits everyone: ability to voice their opinions. But I think that what what US have right now isn't the answer to everyone else, they should develop the means of doing so on their own, without any pressure. And delivering it by force is not an answer, it produces more negaitve results than it does positive ones.


THERE WILL BE NO RESULTS WITHOUT US PERIOD! The tyrants have held sway in these places for... ever. The cultures are perfectly engineered to keep them down. I don't want to damage the cultures or anything like that. I just want to snap the structure that keeps people down.

Open it up and let people be free.


Again, the Iraqis can live how they like, but it has to be according to THEIR wishes and not the tyrant's.

[Morpheus]

There are some tribes in South America that want nothing to do with our world over here, and for them I think it is a hell of alot better to live like they do. But anyways, I never said that if someone doesn't live in your dream world, then they have to live like primates. I was simply saying that our natural negative characteristics, such as greed, will make their way into your dream world and screw it over. If you brake down your argument about why true communism will never work, that's what it comes down to.

And how can YOU say that your ideals are perfect for everyone in this world? Ask them first. While noone in their right mind will want to live as slaves, I doubt that everyone in the world sees your solutions as the best ones possible for the whole world.

In the process of delivering freedom the US will make more and more enemies in the muslim world and lose more and more support from other nations... What's after that, "FU all, we know what's best for everyone, we're imposing our views on you one way or another"?

[JADezimar]

o0

And how can YOU say that your ideals are perfect for everyone in this world? Ask them first. While noone in their right mind will want to live as slaves, I doubt that everyone in the world sees your solutions as the best ones possible for the whole world.

We did not make an enemy with Iraq. We made a new ally. And what enemies are there left to make in the muslin world? The United States is the symbol of infadels to them.

[shutupandshave]

Things, unfortunately are not so black and white. Whilst Iran may not have been friendly towards the US, they most likely feel a lot more threatened than they did now - therefore the invasion of Iraq has made then MORE of an enemy.

[JADezimar]

More of an enemy? I am not sure such a term exists.

[shutupandshave]

I know you're not, but it does

[JADezimar]

Does not.

[shutupandshave]

Maybe it does and maybe it doesn't - I am not sure there is any proof of whether or not certain phrases exist... however the fact that countries can view each other with different degrees of enmity or hostility is a fact.

[Karmashock]

<paraphrased>We should just leave people alone </paraphrased>
The world is too small... perhaps 500 years ago... but it's getting smaller all the time... it just isn't practical. If the US stays out then someone else will fill the vacuum and they won't even have our morality. They'll just straight exploit them... period.
=======================
Things, unfortunately are not so black and white. Whilst Iran may not have been friendly towards the US, they most likely feel a lot more threatened than they did now - therefore the invasion of Iraq has made then MORE of an enemy.
Iran isn't a free country.

love and peace, karmashock.

[shutupandshave]

No it's not, but that has nothing to do with what I was saying... I was trying to explain to JAD that two countries can have different levels of animosity between them.

[Karmashock]

Iran is no more an enemy then they were before the war... the only difference is that now they can feel the rope around their throat.

[shutupandshave]

Okay, so you also dont believe that two countries can be "more of an enemy" towards each other?

Are you more or less of an enemy of Russia now, compared with say... during the Cuban Missile crisis?

[Karmashock]

Russia is not the USSR. They have pretensions, but I’ll reserve judgment until they do something overtly outside of their sphere. So far, all they've done is sell weapons to hostile nations. An action that might have more to do with their poor economy then their strategic interests.

As to more or less an enemy... I simply think, that in this case, the US and Iran are no more or less enemies then they were before. The only real difference is that the US acknowledges the fact and both countries are taking the next logical step. The US is encircling Iran and Iran is trying to acquire nuclear weapons. The US has no need to invade, so the nukes are not a threat to us. However, they might be used in a last ditch attempt once the revolution comes. And yes, that is obviously our plan for Iran.