The New World Order

[DrunkenUno]

The new world order
Insight ^ | January 17, 2005 | Martin Walker

WASHINGTON, Jan. 17 (UPI) -- The tectonic plates of geopolitics have just shifted. On an issue of major strategic concern to the United States, the European Union has decided to flout American concerns and side with China, and Britain has put its vaunted "special relationship" with the United States to one side, and has gone along with its fellow Europeans. A new world order is coming.

Britain's Foreign Secretary Jack Straw heads to Beijing this week to kowtow before the Middle Kingdom, and tell his Chinese hosts that Britain's long opposition to removing the European embargo from selling arms to China is about to end.

Britain's Prime Minister Tony Blair explained personally to President George W. Bush that Britain could no longer hold out against the majority opinion in the European Union, and the ban that was imposed after the Tiananmen Square massacre of 1989 would have to be lifted. It would be replaced by an EU "code of conduct," Blair said, that would restrain sales of arms that could worsen tensions with Taiwan or change the balance of power in Asia. "The U.S. have an entirely legitimate and understandable interest both in the effectiveness of the EU's system of arms control and in issues of regional stability in that area," Straw said. "There will be intensive discussions with the Americans."

But Bush was not mollified by the British explanations, and U.S. officials see this as a grim augury for future EU-U.S. relations, just as Bush is heading over to Brussels next month for a trip that was supposed to mend fences, to smooth over bygone rows over Iraq and start off the second term with a new determination to strengthen Transatlantic ties.

The British went ahead despite explicit warnings from U.S. officials that there was a strong risk of retaliation by Congress, both by clamping down on technological cooperation between U.S. and European arms manufacturers and limiting access to the U.S. arms market. Britain would suffer most, with BAE (British Aerospace) and Rolls-Royce the two biggest foreign suppliers to the Pentagon, with broad security clearances that deem them to be virtually American companies.

The Americans are not the only ones offended by the British and EU decision. After his talks in Beijing, Jack Straw will then fly to Tokyo for talks with Japan, which is preparing "to defend the southern remote islands off Kyushu and Okinawa from possible invasion amid rising security concerns about China," according to papers published Sunday by Kyodo News. The plan calls for a dispatch of 55,000 members of the Ground Self-Defense Force as well as warplanes, destroyers and submarines in case the islands are attacked. Recent incursions by a Chinese nuclear submarine into these Japanese waters (some of them also claimed by China), along with Japanese plans for oil drilling, point to regional tensions that go far beyond Taiwan as Asia adjusts to the emergence of China as a regional superpower.

Why would Britain do this? The first answer is that it may have had little choice. There was a strong majority in the EU, led by France and Germany, that is determined to lift the arms embargo. During previous tussles over the issue, Britain had been backed by the Dutch, Swedes and Danes, who pointed out at an EU summit last year that it was less than sensitive to propose lifting the embargo when some of the pro-democracy students arrested at Tiananmen Square were still in prison. But these allies were shifting their own position under pressure from their own exporters who want to no restrictions on their access to Chinese markets.

If Britain is offending the Americans out of solidarity with Europe, why is the EU doing this? In economic terms, the EU is looking to its future; last week, new trade statistics were published that showed the EU to be China's biggest trade partner, ahead of the United States and Japan.

Another reason is that the EU reckons the U.S. plays a hypocritical game in the region, changing the balance of power by agreeing to rearm Taiwan, while at the same time pumping foreign investment into China, and accepting a trade deficit with China that now exceeds $100 billion a year. If China is now an economic powerhouse, American trade and investment policies made it so. And if arms embargoes are so important, just how did China acquire U.S.-made jet engines for its J-8 jet trainer and light attack warplane? China than sold these warplanes to Myanmar and Pakistan, two countries on which the United States had imposed arms sanctions. What did the U.S. do about this? Nothing. Moreover, the Europeans mutter, what about those fines on U.S. high-tech companies for allowing the "leakage" of satellite technology to the Chinese?

Still, the European motives are less than convincing. The EU is an economy with an $11 trillion GDP; it does not need arms sales contracts that are unlikely to be as much as $10 billion a year - less than 0.1 percent of GDP. Even if the code of conduct means anything, the Chinese are unlikely to be in the market for any big weapons platforms with the exception of super-quiet French or German submarines. China already buys Su-30 fighter-bombers and Kilo-class submarines and Sovremenny-class destroyers from Russia. China is already building its own AWACS technology and cruise missiles.

"If China could get the EU arms embargo lifted, they will bring pressure to Russia, which also has some restrictions on its arms sales and technology transfers to China," notes Arthur Ding, a specialist on China's military at Taiwan's Institute of International Relations. "If the EU lifts its embargo, that could pressure Russia to lift its restrictions."

What the Chinese want from the Europeans are the high-tech sub-systems, like radars and sonars, avionics and command and control systems, high-performance engines and missile guidance technology, fire-and-forget and look down-shoot down radar systems. These are the products that currently give the U.S. military their decisive technological edge over the Chinese. (And using that traditional loophole of "dual use" technology, for both military and civilian use, China has already bought some $280 million of European-made dual-use technology in the last decade, half of it from France, including British radars, French helicopters and missiles and German submarine engines.

"We really are quite worried about helping China arm itself, and that goes well beyond Bush to most security specialists here," says Michael O'Hanlon of the Brookings Institution, a top Washington think-tank. "The issue is not human rights or political reform in China. We really think war is possible over the Taiwan Strait and that it could easily pit the United States against China. Lifting the EU embargo is not only disquieting, it is dangerous."

It also signals the growing European acceptance of the argument that France has been making for the past decade, that the current era of American strategic supremacy will not last forever and that new superpowers like China are already beginning to emerge, with India likely to follow. Within a decade or two, the United States will still be the mightiest of the great powers, but no longer the sole hyperpower. China will be supreme in East Asia, the EU will be master of its own region and India may dominate the Indian Ocean.

Like the 19th century balance of power in Europe between France and Germany, Russia and Britain and Austro-Hungary, this could be a reasonably stable system, so long as there are no great rivalries for scarce resources like oil and gas or control of the Persian Gulf, or sudden tensions over smaller allies like Taiwan or Israel. This is the looming new world order, brought into being by China's economic boom, by the Bush administration's skill at breaking old alliances and by Europe's reluctance to continue accepting the kind of American leadership provided by Bush.

[Karmashock]

absolute stark raving mad fools...

If this is the way the history books read it will be so sad it will be funny.


China is NOT the nation either the US or Europe should ally with... either prospect would be suicide.




It's actually probably best this way... the euros are so confused at this point that their actions will prompt other asian countries to enter into closer relationships... later when the europeans change their mind again, we'll have the benifit of having a stronger alliance.




I just seriously don't understand how the Euros could be so fucking blind on this issue... do they know who they're dealing with?... any fucking clue?


As to this stuff about "bush's leadership", I can see now that the US should have slammed france when it backstabbed us at the UN. They double crossed us and we let it slide... next time we have to show exactly what went down so their is none of this confusion.





As to the new world order, if you value your culture, your morals, or your power... then a western power that allys with china is either stupid or is giving up.

[Polaris]

oh shite.
i've always had a suspicious eye on the chinese... now i guess my skepticism has been vindicated...
i sure hope we dont have to go to war- im not against it if it comes to that, but let's hope the chinese have some form of... reform in their military operations..

[laserflip]

Well, I say fuck Germany and fuck France. Fuck Britain, too, for that matter. If it came to it, we could easily wipe them out with a few fell blows, so why do they try and spite us? They are inferior countries full of inferior people, who speak inferior languages, eat inferior food, have inferior living standards, inferior militaries, and are all around inferior. The United States just stands head and shoulders over the rest of the world, especially Europe. So let them do what they want in their little ant colony. Fuck China, as well. All full of the small-dicked, small-brained, perverted ass asians who have too many fucking babies. Have they not heard of birth control? The United States government may suck, but the rest of the world is just full of stubborn morons. Frankly, I'm glad the Germans and French are backstabbers. I'm sick of the USA trying to please them and shit. Just tell them "look, fucking foreigners, this is how it IS, this is what we're going to do, and theres not a fucking thing you can do about it because you are worthless and barely self-sufficient". And just ignore them. Boo on them, and when we finally go to war with China in 50 years or however long it takes, let them side with whoever they want. We will crush china by scattering catholic schoolgirls around the planet to distract them, and pick them off while they jerk their tiny cocks to their sick fantasies.

Edit: If we go to war with the Chinese, you can trust that laserflip will be in the airforce and be one of the most skilled bitches in the sky, bc im signin up if that happens.

[Karmashock]

... Seriously though... China is rising... It can't be ignored... With that rise comes their power to shape the world. The US would encourage democracy, liberalised economics, religious tolerence, and an environment where everyone feels safe from international aggression.

How would China shape the world?... Because very soon they will.

btw... good strat
We will crush china by scattering catholic schoolgirls around the planet to distract them, and pick them off while they jerk their tiny cocks to their sick fantasies.

I'm sure it would work, Karmashock

[Tank0]

this is really bad news , but i think it s never gonna happen .

Last year FN tried to sell P90 machineguns to a country in that region , there was a massive protest from our people and the politician were forced to cancel it .

i think this is a political move

just likle US-EU are trying to play good cop bad cop with Iran , the EU is trying to show Bush-administration that he cant keep on ignoring his "allies"

the dutch did their duty in iraq , after 18 months they pull out ( like planned )and still they get the backstabbers image

quote lazerflip
"They are inferior countries full of inferior people, who speak inferior languages, eat inferior food, have inferior living standards, inferior militaries, and are all around inferior. The United States just stands head and shoulders over the rest of the world, especially Europe"

and you wonder why our businessmen can muscle their politicians to give china a tradeagreement . Yes we have an inferior army but we aren t useless . If you don t respect them they ll go to a ally who will (or so they think).

Stop the double standards , invading iran because they have or will have nukes is understandable but pakistan is a muslim country too with nuclear missiles and yet the US supports them ???

-1930 isolationisme
1946-1991 cold war

now the US isolates itself again ( example kyoto , int courts in holland ) except now they try to force "freedom" on the rest of the world , ( they have a point freedom for the whole planet is the only long term solution but not in this way )
if freedom is valued that high why where streetprotests prohibited ?
large gates, pepperspray and alot of cops dont mean freedom to me .
wake up and smell the doodoo you gave up major rights in the name of security

i personally believe we should keep nato intact and even work closer together , i have absolutly nothing in common with the chinese but i do love american culture .

i do think both sides have seen the error of their ways and will now try to reinvent their diplomatic situation


we in europe didnt forget the revolution in 89 , untill china is democratic we aren t going to deliver weaponsystems .

[JADezimar]

Stop the double standards , invading iran because they have or will have nukes is understandable but pakistan is a muslim country too with nuclear missiles and yet the US supports them

How many times do we have to point out it is not becuase they are muslim?

A few months ago, it was atleast 6 months or so ago, I watched on fox news, you will have to take my word on this one, (I do not have or will spend the time for the official source) that Usa was already has been making treaties with a league of smaller nations especially asian nations, and other nations outisde of asia for some time now. One of the reasons is for a few years now the United States has been seeing the U.N. Become more and more useless and that it was truly feared to become completely obsolete and useless with the new EU. So Like Karma states above we will probably strengthen our ties with many of the new nations we have been looking forward to allying with. It just goes to show what the U.N and EU are truly worried about. 100% themselves.

Also Look at what people are saying about Bush's Inagural speech.

The Wall Street Journal: "Not Since JFK In 1960 Has An American President Provided Such An Ambitious And Unabashed Case For The Promotion Of Liberty At Home And Abroad." (Editorial, "Liberty Bell Ringer," The Wall Street Journal, 1/21/05)

William Safire, The New York Times: "I Rate It Among The Top 5 Of The 20 Second-Inaugurals In Our History. Lincoln's Profound Sermon 'With Malice Toward None' Is Incomparable, But Bush's Second Was Better Than Jefferson's Mean-Spirited Pouting At 'The Artillery Of The Press.'" (William Safire, Op-Ed, "Bush's

NBC's Tim Russert: "Well-Crafted, Well-Delivered. The Themes Of Freedom And Liberty " I Thought The Call To National Service Will Resonate With All Americans -- Democrats, Republicans,

[BIack]

Im getting a little concerned by some comments on this thred, not because of the topics but because of some of the blatant racist and ignorant comments being made...

I'm all for free speech, but I personally find some of it completely offensive. The sheer stupidity and arrogance of some of the comments here is shocking. Regardless of the context, those who would slam the British attitude to the world when the British dominated the globe are the very ones now ensuring that the rest of the world views Americans in a similar negative light. I know many yanks and you guys are not the evil race some people make out. Generalisations are very bad news so dont go there! Don't exacerbate the already frosty opinion of some.

NB I really HATE to burst your bubble, but if Europe really wanted to act as a cohesive whole, the US could ALSO be taken out with a 'few fell blows'. This of course would never happen, but you should remember that it doesnt matter if 1,000 nuclear bombs hit you or 100. You are still as dead.

[JADezimar]

Black there have been several threads just like this completely aimed at the states. Several Members of tlsc on the political forums spend there entire time making similliar comments about the states. I think if it were not for that, alot more of us would be alot less aggressive on these subjects.

[DrunkenUno]

NB I really HATE to burst your bubble, but if Europe really wanted to act as a cohesive whole, the US could ALSO be taken out with a 'few fell blows'. This of course would never happen, but you should remember that it doesnt matter if 1,000 nuclear bombs hit you or 100. You are still as dead.

Lollerskates. 2 Countries in the EU have nukes. Those 2 countrys are about 1/50th of the US land mass. Right now, EU vs US, EU would get omgwtfpwntbbqchikened.

[JADezimar]

lol

[BIack]

Dunk you miss the point. The point is even if Europe would get omgwtfpwntbbqchikened, the US would not emerge victorious. No winners. Those nukes would still be enough to take out a shit load of people. Each submarine carries enough missiles to take out most of the eastern seaboard. You're talking...what, a radius enough to take out manhatten easy, so 1 per major city?

The point is you cant just say that the US is untouchable because it has more. At the height of the cold war arms race the Soviets had about 2x as many nukes as you guys and the methods to deliver them. Number of nukes isnt important, just having them is enough mate

You do realise that what I was saying is irrelevant for discussion anyway because it never going to happen, I was just pointing out the sheer absurdity of some earlier comments :)

[BIack]

I agree with you totally JAD, I think many people do slate Americans unfairly. Its a vicious circle, which is most likely fuelled by

a) jealously of American assets and global position?

and most likely b) A small minority of Americans sticking their middle fingers up at the rest of the world with an unforgivable and historically myopic arrogance , or at least a perception of that

[laserflip]

Dunk you miss the point. The point is even if Europe would get omgwtfpwntbbqchikened, the US would not emerge victorious. No winners. Those nukes would still be enough to take out a shit load of people. Each submarine carries enough missiles to take out most of the eastern seaboard. You're talking...what, a radius enough to take out manhatten easy, so 1 per major city?

The point is you cant just say that the US is untouchable because it has more. At the height of the cold war arms race the Soviets had about 2x as many nukes as you guys and the methods to deliver them. Number of nukes isnt important, just having them is enough mate

You do realise that what I was saying is irrelevant for discussion anyway because it never going to happen, I was just pointing out the sheer absurdity of some earlier comments :)

unacceptable. europe would haev to launch missiles over canada just as the soviet union would, as their missiles are not as long range as ours are. we have the most advanced and accurate missiles, being able to put an ICBM through YOUR bedroom window if we wanted. you would be lucky to hit the right country. and having to shoot over the north, over canada, past the bigass line of radars, only to hit michigan or wisconson? the likelihood of those 2 countries firing enough nukes, or even HAVING enough missiles to scratch the eastern seaboard is laughable at best. meanwhile, out missiles are faster, and we could counterattack with no less than a few hundred, each of which is more than capable of taking out one of those small pitiful countries on its own. so basically, the U.S. loses a city or 2, and the silleh euros lose almost everything because they underestimate us. but wait...they DONT underestimate us. YOU do. that is why they would NEVER stand up to us directly. they are little bitches and need vachina on their side to fight their battles for them. pitiful! oh and BTW- if you ever DO launch one of those inaccurate ass missiles, euro, i would STRONGLY suggest AGAINST aiming for the "eastern seaboard". because you will probably miss and drop a deuce in the ocean, which would make a wave that would fuck up not only the U.S. but europe or some african or middle eastern countries as well, depending on where it falls, north or south. piss off the entire middle east or westen europe because of a dumbass mistake on a monumental scale = gg, tiny euro country

[stats]

britain and france have the nuclear capability to wipe out 100% of the earths land mass. Dont be stupid drunk.

To carry on this theme:

The EU's wepon technology is not as far behind the US as you people may like think.

The Combined production power of the EU is comprable and could prove better than that of the US. who knows...

The combined Economy of the EU is not as far behind the US as you may like to think.

The Territory of the EU is more defendable than that of the US.

All this is acedemic because the EU will never go to war with the US. And if they did it would be the collapse of Western civilisation and a return to the dark ages... Again. I wonder what sort of religion would arrise...

[Karmashock]

i think this is a political move
You'd better hope so. If europe does this then we'll have less time to contain and convert China. We want to box china in so that it has no option but to play nice and also we want them to be happy with that position.

But we need time. We need to get all the nations around china on board, we need the euros to rearm, we need to get wealth to spread around in china so that the wealth forces reform.

just likle US-EU are trying to play good cop bad cop with Iran , the EU is trying to show Bush-administration that he cant keep on ignoring his "allies"
We're not ignoring you... but you have to stop treating us like shit too. France broke our heart... it really really hurt our feelings. I know that sounds weird but that's the way of it. France hurt our feelings and we really don't want to deal with them for a while. They're total and complete pooh heads.

If anyone else wants to deal, then step up. But france is on our shit list.

the dutch did their duty in iraq , after 18 months they pull out ( like planned )and still they get the backstabbers image
Nope, you don't have that image. The only thing that would give that to you would be closer relationships wiht the french. IF it is seen that you're backing out 'because' of the french, then some of their stink will wipe off on you.


and you wonder why our businessmen can muscle their politicians to give china a tradeagreement . Yes we have an inferior army but we aren t useless . If you don t respect them they ll go to a ally who will (or so they think).
That's just childish. You hurt our feelings so we're going to make deal with someone that will destory us all... that's like killing yourself because daddy will be sorry if you're dead.

Morons.

Stop the double standards , invading iran because they have or will have nukes is understandable but pakistan is a muslim country too with nuclear missiles and yet the US supports them ???
We're not going to invade iran. We're going to fund the revolution... even if we have to hire the people to do it.

now the US isolates itself again ( example kyoto , int courts in holland ) except now they try to force "freedom" on the rest of the world , ( they have a point freedom for the whole planet is the only long term solution but not in this way )
Kyoto is something that no sane nation would sign. The fact that you don't understand that only demonstrates that you've never read the fucking thing.

Read it.... no really.

if freedom is valued that high why where streetprotests prohibited ?
large gates, pepperspray and alot of cops dont mean freedom to me .
wake up and smell the doodoo you gave up major rights in the name of security
Peaceful protests are allowed. If you break through the barrier and on to the street where the president is driving through, then you're going to get sprayed.

To this day the one thing you're not allowed to say is "I want to kill the president"... you can't say that. The secret service will grab you.

This is not something new. This is not a product of hte patriot act. You have NEVER been allowed to do the stuff that these people keep trying to do.

These are not normal americans breaking the lines. They're nut jobs. They have a right ot be nut jobs and to say just about anything htey want. However, when they threaten the security of the president, they get sprayed.

Deal with it.

i personally believe we should keep nato intact and even work closer together , i have absolutly nothing in common with the chinese but i do love american culture .
Nato needs to be expanded. It also needs to be remade.

A rival organization should be made that takes on the people from nato that we like and leaves the ones that cause problems like france... they can't join until they get over themselves.

It should be an alliance of democracies.... a global alliance.

i do think both sides have seen the error of their ways and will now try to reinvent their diplomatic situation
It must be more then words. Say what you like, but then you actually have to do it.

we in europe didnt forget the revolution in 89 , untill china is democratic we aren t going to deliver weaponsystems .
I hope not... but I suspect you will.





As to ICBMs,
Look up the XM Peacekeeper. We currently have 500 of them. They're 10 warhead cluster nukes. They break appart in high orbit and drop 10 tactical nukes in cluster pattern where the target was. This doubles the damage/kiloton rating of the nukes while also making them just about impossible to shoot down... as each ICBM breaks into 10 smaller parts.

if you ignore what they're for, they're neat from an engineering perspective.

[BIack]

Actually laser, both Britain and France have nuclear submarines capable of launching from YOUR coastline ;) EACH SUB can take out 60 US cities. And as to accuracy? You are either blissful in your ignorance, or simply itching for an argument. I think the latter lol

Also, American should be thankful that Europe had 2 world wars...because without them, and with greater euro integration (which would have been, of course, impossible at the time) 100 years ago, the US would still be a 3rd rate military bit player like it was in 1905. Europe was, and had been, THE major military force for a good 5-600 years. And 'that tiny Euro country', regardless of ethics involved, dominated 1/5 of the world's land mass and 1/4 of its population. Our supremacy lasted 200 years, yours has just started. How long will it last I wonder?

But we dont want to to go war with the US, no matter how much you may want to talk it up :)

[Karmashock]

Actually laser, both Britain and France have nuclear submarines capable of launching from YOUR coastline ;) EACH SUB can take out 60 US cities. And as to accuracy? You are either blissful in your ignorance, or simply itching for an argument. I think the latter lol
There is no nuclear sub that can take out 60 targets... neither american nor soviet subs had that power... and they are the largest.

Make sense.

Also, American should be thankful that Europe had 2 world wars...because without them, and with greater euro integration (which would have been, of course, impossible at the time) 100 years ago, the US would still be a 3rd rate military bit player like it was in 1905. Europe was, and had been, THE major military force for a good 5-600 years. And 'that tiny Euro country', regardless of ethics involved, dominated 1/5 of the world's land mass and 1/4 of its population. Our supremacy lasted 200 years, yours has just started. How long will it last I wonder?
YOu don't get it. We would have prefered if you had stayed in control. You think we like being responsible for everything? Do you think we're having a good time in Iraq?

Dude, take the world... take it. We don't want it and we never have. We've been covering your ass for damn near a hundred years and we're fucking tired of it. Build your militaries back, get in the game, and let us get back to our world. We don't like going around the world being the police force. We just don't have a choice. It's either us or chaos... or worse, some big power takes control instead.

What do you prefer? The US has been more then anything trying to keep things from getting out of control. It isn't easy when we have to do it damn near all by our selves.

The world isn't what you remember it though. When you were in power most of the world was too weak to defend itself from you. You had it easy. It was guns v spears. Today everyone at least has some old soviet tech that can shoot down anything more then 20 years old with ease. Furthermore, in your day you could just slaughter whole populations if they pissed you off. That isnt' the way things work anymore.


It means that if you want to get into the game you're going to have to double your military budget and get in there.

But we dont want to to go war with the US, no matter how much you may want to talk it up :)
Americans have never wanted to go to war in europe... especially against england. You misunderstand the comments we're making.

We insult your military because they are pathetic. We don't do it to scare you of us we do it to show you how you should be. Rebuild, invest, and soldier forth. The US and europe together can hold international order together.


Alone we will be picked appart.

Choose the future, Karmashock.

[DrunkenUno]

Wow. Im stunned. Im completely in agreement with Karma's last post.

[JADezimar]

lol

[shutupandshave]

*thinks about finding the two/three week old quote from Karma saying that this would never happen when suas said this may well happen and then doesn't bother*

I am still surprised this happened already, in fact where is the source for this - because I find it incredibly difficult to believe that we've made this move so soon.

[Karmashock]

If I said it wouldn't happen it's because I assumed you weren't retarded. ;)

This is going to screw up our whole plan for China... we could careful transition them into being a peaceful nation... but if you fund them and give them political support, then it might lead to war.

Good work.

[shutupandshave]

If I said it wouldn't happen it's because I assumed you weren't retarded.

Wait, so I accurately predicted what would happen AGAIN (read WMD and China alliance) and I'm still retarded.

Doesn't the sheer fact that I keep getting things right and you keep NOT getting things right lead you to believe that I know something you dont?

No cause even though I am right, you - somehow - think I am still wrong.

[JADezimar]

If I said it wouldn't happen it's because I assumed you weren't retarded

I think the quote above was more aimed at european government. oh I forget your mr blair.

[Karmashock]

No cause even though I am right, you - somehow - think I am still wrong.
Nah, I was refering to the english people. If you're right then the english people are stupid... allying with china is insane. ;)

[shutupandshave]

We'll see about that.

[Karmashock]

How can allying with china turn out well? Do you know what the plan to do to asia? Do you think they'll stop there?

The chinese could be worse then the Russians... allying iwth them is bat shit insane.

[shutupandshave]

Right now, Allying with America seems pretty mad - we're pissing off a whole bunch of terrorists and killing a tonne of people we really dont want too, and all, as you say, so that the US can "infect" and change all these countries.

China may be capable of doing some pretty nasty things but they seem like the lesser of two evils to a lot of people at the moment. They wont be forever.

[Karmashock]

If you think China is the lesser of two evils V the US... then you're mad

You’re just crazy... Seriously... you can't possibly believe that... if you're that far gone then all I can do is prescribe medication.

I don’t mean that as flame… honestly… what you said is like saying the USSR was the lesser of two evils V the US… it’s insane.


I need some back up here… the concept of having to explain this is making me twitchy.

[shutupandshave]

Yeah so you keep saying, but the EU apparently disagrees with you... I would say they have more information about the situation than both you and I.

China is currently buying the US bit by bit. The US is going to be in China's pocket before too long.

[Karmashock]

... Lets say that's right...


Are you so petty as to enjoy that? Are you so deeply childish as to ally with the chinese for no other purpose then hurt us even though in the process you ruin your own future?

That's the very height of immaturaty.

The Euros piss me off damn near daily, but I never stoop to such infantil logic. We need each other... it's just that simple. Allying with china is one of two things

A: madness
B: willfull sucide

[shutupandshave]

No, I think we're allying with China because China is going to be the only superpower in a few years time - certainly if they continue to buy the US bit by bit.

It's called self-preservation.

You called us pussies, and told us we were ineffectual. Called us dishonest and liars. Started a war that we disagreed with, then complained when we didn't come and help you clean it up.

It's too late to say that we need each other... you've said clearly before that US doesn't need anyone. Perhaps that theory is going to be put to the test?

[Karmashock]

Our differences are petty conpared to the MASSIVE differences between Europe and the US.

Furthermore, China doesn't own us... if anything they fund us. China is the single largest holder of US debt... but that debt doesn't mean you own the US. The debt is purchased in the form of bonds... the kind that little old ladies buy to save for their retirement.

They do it keep US currency about 8 times higher then chinese currency. This gives them a competitive advantage when it come to manufacturing... but that's it.



I'm actually kind of curious as to 'how' you think the chinese could 'buy' the US? You do of course realise that your economy still dwarfs china's... right?

[shutupandshave]

No they dont OWN you yet, however you know the way these things work - the people paying the bills get to call the shots.

http://www.house.gov/tanner/press108-101.htm

Interesting - an article from 1999
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/the_economy/411973.stm

You did some calculations to prove that the US's debt was no problem. In those calculations you proved that the Chinese economy would soon overtake the US economy - remember?

[Karmashock]

If you quote my post, you'll see that I said that china couldn't keep up the pace it was going at... which is true. Japan gave the US trouble in the 80's then hit a brick wall... the same thing will happen to china... and in the process there will have to be some major political changes in china a the people aquire wealth and the power that always comes with it.



Lastly, who owns US debt is meaningless... anyone could own. All they're doing by buying our debt is reducing the cost of borrowing.


China isn't even trying to 'own' the US. Japan tried to do that when they started buying US companies... the japanese however almost always paid too much and therefore tended to go bankrupt and sell their purchase off in some cases to the person they bought it from at a lower price. Especially in real estate... they just bought all this land and then couldn't do anything with it.


The US is in no danger of being 'owned' by china... losing manufacturing jobs, sure... but not being owned.

[shutupandshave]

Yes I did notice that you said it cant keep it up, which is obvious - but it's how long it CAN keep it up for that is the important thing. 1 year, 10 years, 5000 years?

"China isn't even trying to 'own' the US." I dont think either one of us can say for sure what China's intentions are.

Perhaps the US is in no immediate danger of being owned by China, but there are certainly people worried about the fact it may happen in the future.

[Karmashock]

The people worried are usually those that look at numbers they don't understand and come to uneducated paraniod conclusions.

one of those links you gave me, i forgot which one, was total nonsense. It was sort of like that wild bullshit that some people were spreading around when the atom bomb was first developed... some people thought it would set the atmosphere on fire... whatever that means.



China scares people and so they're compelled to express that fear the best way they know how... in the case of the poorly educated... its in nonsense reasoning.

Just take it for what it's worth... fear.




As to the future of china... I think you have to realize that china will very soon have to go through some fundimental political, social, and economic shifts soon as its people accumulate wealth.


I can't see them having a thriving middle class while also granting them no political freedoms. The middle class is the engine of the modern economy. China rises as fast as it does because many people on china make less then 100 dollars a year if that. Mexico is a more prosperous nation then China is... all china's got is size. Once power becomes decentralized we'll have something to work with.



Anyway, siding with china before it has gone through these changes will only delay them and perhaps compel china to expand its power throughout asia. No nation in asia wants that aside from china herself.


If europe empowers china, then the asian countries will do one of two things... they will either do the asian thing and side with whomever seems strongest... or they will mimic western powers and unite to oppose. We can count on japan and south korea...

Do you really want to be the bad guys?... because if you side with china you're definetly making a deal with the devil.

[Forsaken]

Black there have been several threads just like this completely aimed at the states. Several Members of tlsc on the political forums spend there entire time making similliar comments about the states. I think if it were not for that, alot more of us would be alot less aggressive on these subjects.

I think it was Hemmingway that said something like "You lost an empire. Deal with it."

[JADezimar]

What is your point?

[shutupandshave]

Jad, his point was - shut up

Karma - I think to say that China is and always will be the embodiment of evil is going a bit far...

[JADezimar]

Pretty lame point. A few of us would want the same from a few of you. Like you suas :)

[Karmashock]

Karma - I think to say that China is and always will be the embodiment of evil is going a bit far...
China isn't but the tyranny that rules and guides it is evil. Until China is a free country, it will remain a pawn of tyrannical forces.

[Karmashock]

I thought this was a very well written article on current and future american foreign policy... yes it's from site sympathetic to reps... but it's a pretty clinical look at the picture...
http://www.techcentralstation.com/images/041904A_large.jpg
http://www.techcentralstation.com/012505A.html

[shutupandshave]

Actually JAD, I imagine the only person on this forum that wants me to shut up is you.

Karma: there is evidence that the US is tyrannical - however you chose to ignore it because it doesn't fit in with your way of thinking. The US, globally is thought of as the biggest tyrant in the world at the moment - and most of it is because of the war in Iraq.

I am not trying to BASH the US, I am merely stating what "I" believe world opinion is.

Amusingly - google search on +US +Tyrant returns about 480,000
+China +Tyrant returns 163,000. I wouldn't quote that in a house of law either but you get the point.

[Karmashock]

Google vampires and zombies...

for that matter... google goat sex...



The US has been doing its best to prevent tyranny... that is why we opposed the USSR, communism, and the various other elements that seek to dominate people.

Look at all the forces we oppose... all major human rights violators... none of them allow voting, few personal liberties, few to no rights, no care for human dignity.


Seriously... the only people that call the US a tyrant are tools of the tyrants or general malcontents.


I’m open to your argument. I’ve just seen nothing that makes your case very well… most of it is hyper emotional Michael Moore type ranting that is neither well informed or well intentioned.

I do not say you are ‘of’ this group… merely that the sources that you draw upon are largely of it.


I also wonder how much of it comes from misunderstanding about our political factions… simple things like lack of understanding out the histories of our factions has resonance… also little things like the word ‘liberal’ meaning something different in the US…


I think most of our issues stem from poor communication and opportunistic political forces that try to build national followings by painting the US as an aggressor.





To those that say “give peace a chance”; I say “have faith in freedom”.

Love and Peace, Karmashock.

[shutupandshave]

I have faith in freedom, and it has been apparent to me that many of the differences we have in views are less to do with the views and more to do with the names we gives those views. I am also surprisingly less left wing than people think.

I objected to the Iraq war for a number of reasons, 1) because I didn't feel that it was Hussein that was really the problem in the middle-east, and we disagree on that, but there we go. 2) because I felt that the major reason for going to war was based on flawed and false evidence. It was a view that many people had, and many governments had.
I would not have said there were no WMD of destruction in Iraq, and I will say this now - I do not believe there are definitely no WMD of destruction in Iraq even now - however I did not believe we had sufficient evidence to start a war.

I believe in Freedom, but I dont believe that the way to achieve it is by forcing it on people. I think you cheapen freedom by doing that, and almost invalidate it.

[Karmashock]

1). What is the problem with middle east... If you say israel, its going to give me a head ache.
2). At the time the majority opinion was actually supportive of the administration's information. They just thought they could get him to stop the weapons programs (even though we know now that they likely didn't exist). Don't say that they said he didn't have them. Because that was NOT what people thought. Even in france, the notion was to get him to stop via diplomacy with the assumption that the US was right about him having it. To us just sounded like a stall tactic, which it was, and we pushed through.

Everyone intellegence was bad because Saddam wanted everyone to think he had the stuff. He deliberately did suspecious things. He bought that mobile lab from teh germans, he tried to buy alluminum piping (only used for enrichment), and did a price quote on yellow cake urainium. Doesn't mean he got it... he just asked the price in a way that we could hear him.


Lastly, you can't force freedom. The iraqi people can still choose to live in tyranny if they'd like. They jsut have to vote to give up their right to vote.

Just that simple.

We are forcing nothing on them. We're just making sure that their will is felt in the government. If they'd prefer to live under a dictatorship, then that's their choice to make. But they will choose that.


That isn't us forcing anything upon them but their won will... and you can't force someone's own will upon themselves. it's logically impossible.

Ie we are not forcing them... we are freeing them... plain and simple.

Love and peace, Karmashock.

[shutupandshave]

The abundance of oil is the problem with the middle east.

If it wasn't for the oil, no one would give much of a shit as to what went on there. You also have conflicting religion, and disputes ranging back to the beginning of humanity.

No, the majority was not in support of the US position... this is where the misconceptoin is. Most people didn't support the view, most people believed Hans Blix when he said he had not looked everywhere yet but so far there was no evidence. We wanted to give him the time to finish off his search, which he said he was almost entirely done with.

Saddam was posturing because of the international pressure put on him. People do it.

I see what you're saying about the free will thing, but it's not our responsibility. It's not legal to shoot someone you suspect of abusing a woman. It's not legal to shoot someone you KNOW is abusing a woman.

Why is that?

[Karmashock]

the oil complicates the area... if htey didn't have it, then saddam wouldn't have hte money to be so dangerous.

further, hans also agreed iwth the US at one point... he went back and forth.


As to Saddam, guess that one backfired on him... sucks for him.

[shutupandshave]

It doesn't suck for him though, it sucks for the Iraqi people, and it wouldn't have sucked for the Iraqi people if people had stopped and thought about what they were doing, instead of burling into Iraq all gung-ho and blowing shit up.

He may well have agreed with the US at one point, but at the time in question he did not. Hell, I may have agreed that there were WMD of destruction at one point, and at one point I may have been right, but we're talking about during the leadup to the war.

[Karmashock]

nope, they get a free republic... do you know how much blood that's worth?.. what most nations pay for that in their own blood?

we're freeing them and doing it better then they could do it themselves.

[shutupandshave]

No, tell me how much blood it's worth?

[Karmashock]

Ask the French.

[shutupandshave]

I try and avoid speaking to the French wherever possible. I'm asking you?

[Karmashock]

I'm refering to their revolution.
http://www.abacci.com/history/i/74b.JPG


and why not talk to them?... they're supposedly far more moral and honest people then Americans...

[shutupandshave]

ohhh, I never said that.

Ohhh, nono I never said that.

If I did, then I didn't mean it like that.

Most of the French are very nice people, extremely nice people - but I think they have slightly more than their fair share of weirdo's.

[Karmashock]

ohhh, I never said that.

Ohhh, nono I never said that.

If I did, then I didn't mean it like that.
what the shit...

Most of the French are very nice people, extremely nice people - but I think they have slightly more than their fair share of weirdo's.
please... they're the only thing standing between the world and the US skull fucking the universe.

[shutupandshave]

I have no idea what you're talking about now.

You said that I think the French are better than the Americans. I dont think that, and if I gave you the impression that I did, then it was a misunderstanding.

I know I said the French "got it right" concerning the WMD, but that doesn't make them better.

[Karmashock]

come on suas... If the french hadn't stepped up to america's fascistic nazi great satan dream of global domination then right now America would be skull fucking the very human race for the shear glee of it. *porno slap* Hooo Aah!

[shutupandshave]

You think I believe the French saved the world?

[Karmashock]

no no... the french are the only thing standing between the helpless people of the world and the tyrannical satanic forces of the US.


Put your trust in the french... if there is any nation on earth that is really good at making political decisions for the betterment of mankind... it's the french.