Islam vs Christianity (split from Iran thread) [Archive] - The Lone Star Command Message Boards

Papa Smurf

Jan 19, 2005, @ 11:58 AM

There is no tolorance of any other idea other than the American view point, it reminds me of how the Russians used to act under Stalin it was his way or death, and the worst thing of all aot of this seems to be driven by people that call themselves Christians, are we embarking on another crusade in the middle east? are we trying to turn them into christians again? If you look at the history books we have been here before and failed misrably.

Why are we there?

What are we tring to achieve?

If we wanted to end terrorism from arab peoples then all we had to do was solve the Palestinian question, i give them back the land that Isreal has stolen from them, and allow the 3.4 million refugess to return to their homes, in accordance to UN declaration 194, however America and Isreal and us to some extent sem just to ignore these, oh we enforce UN resolutions on poor contries like Iraq, because it suits our objective but we conveinently ignore the one we do not like despite the blatent breaches of every human right convention ever signed, and then we are shocked when they do harsh things like chop our nationals heads off with swords, and then we have the gall to call them uncivilized when truly it is we that are the uncivilised at least they bring death quickly, we make millions suffer a life time, children are born in slums and refugee camps and know nothing more, they are shot as they sit in their class rooms and we do nothing about it, we let Isreal build a 1000km wall to make sure they never escape and we go no do not do that in our smallest and weakest voice possible.

Oh and Karma please do not preach about histroy to someone with a degree in Near eastern and Biblical archaeology about the history of the region Palstine was formed after the second jewish uprising on the orders of the roman empror. Before that a jewish state had existed lead by David and the like, however they had invaded from the mesoptimia region where they were Normads and this state was very small and only based in what we would call the southern half of the west bank, the Palestinians are actually the indiginios people of the area however they are a mixture of the natons around them. The area has always been an area of conflict, the Assyrians, the Hitites, the Egyptians and later the Romans have controlled the Levant at points, and have all left some of the people there. In the ancient world this was one of the richest areas and the cross roads between the most powerful nations in the known world at that point.

You think Jesus looke like he does in our churches? He more than likely looked more like Yasser Arafat than Goerge W Bush. (do not know why i added that bit in just thought it seemed relavent in some obsucre wat)

shutupandshave

Jan 19, 2005, @ 12:01 PM

Christianity is also the old testament Ummon, not just the new testament.

If God is all knowing, why did he have to send Jesus down to save us - he knew we'd need saving to begin with - why not just send him down right at the beginning...

Papa Smurf

Jan 19, 2005, @ 12:08 PM

Islam is not a threat to world peace Ummon, if you knew anything about it you would know that it teaches total tolorance of others, it is extremist that present the real threat to world peace and they are not only Islamic, they are Christian too we have had christians pushing for war Afganistan and Iraq it is these people that present the true threat, just as the extremeist in Islam do they same thing, and its only about one thing power they want more power radical clerics from Islam want to control people as that where their power derives from, America wants more of their oil, as their power comes from their economy, to control the oil you must control the government, hate is a powerful weapon, and these clerics use it most effectivly to gain power but because the hate they use is against america they can not be controlled. and there fore these are seen as a threat.

And Ummon ever read the old testament it is not so friendly as the new.

Papa Smurf

Jan 19, 2005, @ 12:14 PM

omg Ummon you have just won the agrument for us, who has killed more in the last 100 years us or the arabs?

ANSWER: the WEST by at a rough guess 1000:1

WW2
WW1
Vietnam
Malaysia
countless actions in Africa
all the americans lovely actions in south and central america

you see my point?

We are the destructive one we will do anything to preverve our ideals over those of anyone else.

As a slight digression: Stats mathamatically you are almost certainly wrong, and taking into mind that there may even be life with in our solar system, i personaly and almost certain there is other inteligent life out there.

http://www.newscientist.com/channel/space/mg18524821.400
this was posted a few days ago, and again raise the question of life on mars. Sadly you can not read the whole artical as you have to subscribe, like me.

http://www.newscientist.com/data/images/ns/9999/99996885F2.JPG Pebbles on Titan show some evidence of erosion, the moon's colour appears orange

EDIT: OMG what a great link stats thank you i have never laughed so much in all my life

http://www.landoverbaptist.net/

They guarantting salvation eh, and who are they to judge who is to be saved surly that is god porogative, and i say judge not least ye be judged, where the worh while worship omg and again judge not least ye be judged, unsaved unwelcome as jesus commanded, emmm now when did jesus say this? so did jesus not welcome the unclean did he not wash the feet of the prostitue (might of been an adultress), which is an unheard of jesture at the time, let he who is with out sin cast the first stone.

that site fantastic they are the most ignorant people i have ever heard of, and are a perfect example.

Ummon

Jan 19, 2005, @ 12:43 PM

Papa, no. I lub you, but Islam is a nazi philosophy. Visit the link I posted.

About the old testament thing, Suas, "I come to bring a new law". Enough said.

Finally, you can kill in self defense, and you can kill to conquer. And 100 years is arbitrary. Who has killed more men in the last 1000 years? Islam wins in this one, I assure you. They were just weak lately.

Finally, guys, I am a zen buddhist. But I reiterate, christians follow a mostly decent religion. Muslims don't.

And stats, that's just baptist fanatics, not the whole of christendom. But they won't quote from the new testament, because they can't.

stats

Jan 19, 2005, @ 12:47 PM

I can read it papa =] i will later.

I dont boubt that there is other life in the universe - it may even be intelegent, but i doubt it is technologically advanced.

You need:

To be a top preditor for one, with a large advanced brain. you need hands, like ours capable of manipulating things around you, creativity, a concept of time and spacial awareness you need to be DESTRUCTIVE, violent and cruel - you need to fight one another and a lust for dominance over your fellow species. However you cant be to destructive otherwise you will destroy ur selves but if your not destructive enough you wont advance. You also need compassion for your species to advance medicaly and stop you from completely irradicating other elements and thus limiting your genetic pool for further advancement. You need imagination and dreams (this goes with creativity and must tie in with the destructive instincts). And all this is after your species has been numerous, successfull enough to fight off natrual preditors - the resources need for your brain means that you cannot devote much energy to physical protection. There is many many more things that humans have that they NEEDED to become what we are today. So many and each one is made up of so many parts - The odd's of hands evolving to the extent they have are low - same with any other one of our trates. The fact that they came together is astronomical. I think there so slim that they could only arise once in all the planets where life is possible.

Many neurologists will tell you that the brain is as advanced as any biological system (and by that i mean carbon life as we know it) could EVER be and will ever be...

oh and you need fire and a need for it, fire is the starting point of all technologies - you the environment you need: it cant be to warm or to wet it has to be on land and it has to be with oxygen and combustable materiel.

I dunno man, thats just my take on it.

Papa Smurf

Jan 19, 2005, @ 01:01 PM

I can not access the link to the old site Ummon :0(

shutupandshave

Jan 19, 2005, @ 02:46 PM

Finally, you can kill in self defense, and you can kill to conquer. And 100 years is arbitrary. Who has killed more men in the last 1000 years? Islam wins in this one, I assure you.

I have no statistics for that, but I DO know that the crusades were horrendous. I would not be surprised if more people died at the hands of the UK and US in the last 300 years that were killed by any government or official organisation (islam included) in the last 1000. I have no statistics for this though... add to this the Russian genocide (non Islam)...

Ummon

Jan 19, 2005, @ 02:54 PM

Easy to calculate Suas, entire areas of Asia were completely depopulated during the mongol invasions, which were triggered by islamic nations. The whole balkans where depopulated by hundreds of years of Turkish invasions. WWI was fought by the Turkish Empire too. Northern African populations were sold in slavery by moroccan slavers. Northern India was invaded by Uzbeks. I could add a thousand more.

Before that it was even worse. The Arabs invaded and sacked the romanized provinces of Egypt, Syria, Palestine, most of Anatolia, Libya, Tunisia, Algiers, Morocco, Spain. They conquered the greek kingdoms of Parthia, Bactria, the nations of northern India.

And we were doing much of the same later on for sure, but no holy book prescribed us to kill and enslave. That's the biggest difference, IMHO.

Ummon

Jan 19, 2005, @ 03:06 PM

The Pope, yesterday, after a catholic bishop had been kidnapped by Islamic terrorists in Iraq: "Jews and Christians must stand together". The Bishop was freed three hours later, by the way.

DrunkenUno

Jan 19, 2005, @ 05:32 PM

Islam is not a threat to world peace Ummon, if you knew anything about it you would know that it teaches total tolorance of others, it is extremist that present the real threat to world peace and they are not only Islamic

Please don't state things that you've heard on tv, thanks.

"politically incorrect" facts about Islam:

The Koran sanctions pillage, looting, ransom, and the rape of captive women as an incentive to join in jihad or "holy war"

The Koran allows a man to have up to four wives -- at any one time. He can divorce a wife by simply saying so 3 times

Mohammad had as many as 25 wives. One was six when they married; he was 54. He consummated the marriage when she was 9

At least 27 people were murdered on Mohammed's orders

Mohammed allowed temporary marriage "for three nights" or more, so that soldiers in the field could "marry" prostitutes

In Islam, the definition of what is "right" or "just" is not fixed, but changeable by divine decree -- enabling the most henous sins and crimes to be declared "the will of Allah"

As Mohammad progressed from visionary and teacher to warlord and ruler, his style and message became more depraved, violent and intolerant. It is these later "revelations" that are considered definitive by Islamic authorities when they conflict with earlier ones often cited for Western consumption

Islam divides the world into the House of Islam (where Islam rules) and the House of War (where it doesn't). The two are permanently at war; there may be temporary truces, but peace will come only upon the completion of global conquest

When Muslims are a minority community, the Koran permits them to adopt a peaceful attitude to deceive their neighbors, until they feel strong enough to dispense with the pretense

The massacres perpetrated by Muslims in India are unparalleled in history, bigger in sheer numbers than the Holocaust

The myth of Islam's "tolerance" of religious minorities contradicts its teaching, history, and present reality

Like Communism, Islam cannot foster prosperity, and is always reliant on plunder or unearned wealth (e.g., from oil)

Islam recognizes no distinction between temporal and divine authority; the only "legitimate" government is a theocracy

The first imam to deliver a Muslim prayer for the U.S. House of Representatives in 1991, declared in 1997 that Muslims will eventually elect the president and replace the constitutional government with an Islamic caliphate.

"Moderate" Islam is a myth. Thank god we all don't think like you.

DrunkenUno

Jan 19, 2005, @ 05:40 PM

Continuing on this train of thought:

" In Search Of...
THE ELUSIVE MODERATE MUSLIM"

Imam Siraj Wahaj is in great demand. In mid November, 2004 he was a featured speaker at the Mosque for the Praising of Allah in Roxbury, Massachusetts. A few days before that, he addressed four hundred people at a Muslim Students Association gathering at Western Michigan University.

His star has shone for years: in 1991, he even became the first Muslim to give an invocation to the U.S. Congress. And why not? Not long after 9/11, he said just what jittery Americans wanted to hear from Muslims: "I now feel responsible to preach, actually to go on a jihad against extremism."

But what he thinks actually constitutes extremism is somewhat unclear; after all, he has also warned that the United States will fall unless it "accepts the Islamic agenda." He has lamented that "if only Muslims were clever politically, they could take over the United States and replace its constitutional government with a caliphate." In the early 1990s he sponsored talks by Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman in mosques in New York City and New Jersey; Rahman was later convicted for conspiring to blow up the World Trade Center in 1993, and Wahaj was designated a "potential unindicted co-conspirator."

The fact that someone who would like to see the Constitution replaced has led a prayer for those sworn to uphold it is just a symptom a larger, ongoing problem: the government and media are avid to find moderate Muslims -- and as their desperation has increased, their standards have lowered. Unfortunately, it is not so easy to find Muslim leaders who have genuinely renounced violent jihad and any intention, now or in the future, to impose Sharia on non-Muslim countries.

Where are these moderate Muslim clerics who renounce the attacks of 9-11 ? Do any exist?

shutupandshave

Jan 19, 2005, @ 06:09 PM

Facts about Christianity:

Some people claim to be christians and then order a country into a war that kills 20,000 innocent people. This is the most recent example of what christianity can do.

If you went completely isolationst, you wouldn't have been able to make all the money from wars, or from exploiting the developing countries of the world.

I know many muslims personally and they're pretty much all nice people. ALL of them. I know many Christians personally they're also all pretty nice people.

I think Islam is going through a troubled stage at the moment, but then there are people like you and Ummon saying that the religion should be exterminated.

What would the citizens of the US's do if someone took all their high-tech weapons, and then an army 10 times it's size said they were going to eradicate it? Do you think they'd bend over and convert to whatever? No way - they'd fight.

Before you start accusing people of being aggressive - just remember who it is that invaded who here... PRE-EMPTIVELY.

And we'd be speaking German if the US hadn't intervened.... but you wouldn't have intervened if you hadn't been attacked first... up until that point you were just playing the loan shark. You were forced to enter the war... remember that too...

Incidently, what language would you be speaking if it wasn't for Europe? None... but that's old news. Incidently wasn't that the same war the US dropped a Nuclear bomb on a TOWN/CITY in Japan? If we're going to remember that far back perhaps we should start complaining about the use of WMD by the US? Of course, most of us dont look that far back because we realise that it isn't relevant now.

And as for the bible

"thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them:"
Deuteronomy 7:2

This is for worshipping a god other than "the Lord".

How about

"21:13 And she shall put the raiment of her captivity from off her, and shall remain in thine house, and bewail her father and her mother a full month: and after that thou shalt go in unto her, and be her husband, and she shall be thy wife.
21:14 And it shall be, if thou have no delight in her, then thou shalt let her go whither she will; but thou shalt not sell her at all for money, thou shalt not make merchandise of her, because thou hast humbled her."

This is the women that are left from a captured city, after the men and boys are killed.
You "take" them, and if you like them you marry them, and if not you let them go. It's okay though, you cant sell them for money.

"God hardened the heart of the king of Heshbon and so that he could have him and all of his people killed."

"If you worship the wrong god, God will get jealous and kill you."

He also demonstrates numerous times that he uses his followers to do that.

"God instructs the Israelites to kill, without mercy, all the inhabitants (strangers) of the land that they conquer. "

It's all bullshit.

It's the same bullshit too.

You're very eager to show one side of the story without showing the other.

Where are these moderate Muslim clerics who renounce the attacks of 9-11 ? Do any exist?
Yes there was a public outcry in the UK. I suspect it was the same over there, but you may not have been listening.

Edit: I would like to point out though Papa - if you attack another country, you are going to find yourself and your country attacked in return, although provacation may well be your aim.

Papa Smurf

Jan 19, 2005, @ 06:45 PM

ah i thought you had said are the best lol yes totally agree SBS rock hard diffrent type of fighting though SAS tend to be small and w

Karmashock

Jan 19, 2005, @ 07:02 PM

Were they robots flying those planes into the side of the twin towers or the pentagon? Exactly! You push people hard enough leave them no option and they will eventually strike back especially when it is seen as a foreign power, yeah revolution is a hard thing to instigate in a country as they are the same people with a common link, how could ones own people wish to hurt on themselves is the dilemma they are left with. However in Americas case in relation to the Arab world you are totally alien to them, and therefore a very very easy target to hate and commit themselves to the destruction of.
Since 9/11... how many attacks have we had? These people are losing respect in their host countries and the Iraqis are happier with the US then they are with the terrorists that INTENTIONALLY kill innocents.

We'll have to see on the rest... in time you may be right, but I doubt it.

Time will tell.
======================================
They did kick the Palestinians out of Israeli land and there former homes (after half of them had fled in fear anyway) and told them ' Learn our national language and our customs so that you may respect them, and you can come back' many did and were not aloud back in..
if they converted, then I would have no trouble with letting them in because they wouldn't cause problems. However, I doubt the sincerity of the conversion and therefore doubt they'll not cause problems.

Eitherway, you don't play around. You act completely everytime. The enemy must never doubt your resolve.

Views like 'Bring democracy to the world by force' is the real problem - islam is not a democratic people, i really doubt they want to be. so, why do it? When public opinion in europe says that america is in it for the 'oil' you only have to look at your choice of targets and the shares your (of the individuals) political power base has to see why.
I think Europe has long standing prejudicing against islam for the thousands of years of conflict between arab and western powers.

Central to the American creed is that ALL people want to be free and ALL people deserve to be free. Our freedom comes not from our military but from our creator... ie God. Read the declaration of independence.

I believe that all people everywhere want to be free. However, I also believe that tyrants the world over don't want those that follow them to be free. They don't want to answer to anyone.

We'll see who is right... What I have described is current US foreign policy.

In a WW3 type of situation, the west will loose. Because what exactly are we fighting for? Certainly not our freedom and certainly not against a great threat. We are fighting a weak underdeveloped people, for what? Not ourselves...
We're getting weaker compared to the rest of the world every day. We must act now to kill off the tyrants before we no longer have the strength to do so.

If you don't then you'll ceed regional hegemony to China and Islam... we'll be alone... and only able to prevent our own invasion... no more power beyond that.

Britains odd's for holding out for three years against the production power and armies of nearly all of europe were bleak to. By the time the US got involved we were starting to turn the tide (Thanks in no small part to the food and supplies we did receive from the us).. I'm not sure what im trying to say here. The whole thing stinks really, i think we are stiring up a massive wasp nest and covering ourselves in honey.
Yep, but the point is that you have to win. If you win then it doesn't matter. Winning this will be HUGE for us... massive.

Seriously, consider what would happen if we pull it off?
======================================
There is no tolorance of any other idea other than the American view point, it reminds me of how the Russians used to act under Stalin it was his way or death, and the worst thing of all aot of this seems to be driven by people that call themselves Christians, are we embarking on another crusade in the middle east? are we trying to turn them into christians again? If you look at the history books we have been here before and failed misrably.
That isn't true.

We want democracy... we want people free... seriously, how can you argue against that? The only people arguing that in the tyrant countries are people that belong to the tyrant's power structure.

PEOPLE MUST BE FREE IF THERE IS TO BE PEACE!

Oh and Karma please do not preach about histroy to someone with a degree in Near eastern and Biblical archaeology
Why not? I might learn something. Why would I argue with someone that knew nothing? That would be pointless.

As to your comment, when was the last time Palestine existed as a autonomous nation... if ever.

If it never did, then there never was a 'state' of Palestine.

You think Jesus looke like he does in our churches? He more than likely looked more like Yasser Arafat than Goerge W Bush. (do not know why i added that bit in just thought it seemed relavent in some obsucre wat)
What is your point? Race is irrelevant. Furthermore, I'd like to think he was more handsome then Arafat... that dude was always butt ugly. Perhaps Omar Sharef?... he's technically Egyptian... but at least he has a good profile.
========================================
i see you're very good at statistics eh... there is only one point with them, what they say strongly depends on how you look at them or from which point of view you take them. how many times was america involved in war in the last whatever 10, 20, 50 etc years? to be honest i don't remember the last war switzerland was involved in.
You make a good point. The US gets involved far more then most nations. However, that is a product of our power.

Compare the US to nations that have near our power or your arguement falls appart. :)
=====================================
I'm sorry, but Seymour is highly mistaken this time around; we are not currently planning to invade Iran..
He's actually got a record of making shit up.

Anyway, he's getting his information from a bunch of guys at the CIA that are losing their jobs. The CIA is gettin purged... it's become a degenerate and insubordinate organization that does more plotting and bribing in washington then they do internationally.

ergo, they're getting axed.

Love and Peace, Karmashock

stats

Jan 19, 2005, @ 07:12 PM

Here you go Karma:

Bear in mind this is not 100% accurate and not a record of 100% of what went on.

http://gbgm-umc.org/country_profiles/country_history.cfm?Id=116

DrunkenUno

Jan 19, 2005, @ 07:27 PM

Facts about Christianity:

Some people claim to be christians and then order a country into a war that kills 20,000 innocent people. This is the most recent example of what christianity can do.

If you went completely isolationst, you wouldn't have been able to make all the money from wars, or from exploiting the developing countries of the world.

I know many muslims personally and they're pretty much all nice people. ALL of them. I know many Christians personally they're also all pretty nice people.

I think Islam is going through a troubled stage at the moment, but then there are people like you and Ummon saying that the religion should be exterminated.

What would the citizens of the US's do if someone took all their high-tech weapons, and then an army 10 times it's size said they were going to eradicate it? Do you think they'd bend over and convert to whatever? No way - they'd fight.

Before you start accusing people of being aggressive - just remember who it is that invaded who here... PRE-EMPTIVELY.

And we'd be speaking German if the US hadn't intervened.... but you wouldn't have intervened if you hadn't been attacked first... up until that point you were just playing the loan shark. You were forced to enter the war... remember that too...

Incidently, what language would you be speaking if it wasn't for Europe? None... but that's old news. Incidently wasn't that the same war the US dropped a Nuclear bomb on a TOWN/CITY in Japan? If we're going to remember that far back perhaps we should start complaining about the use of WMD by the US? Of course, most of us dont look that far back because we realise that it isn't relevant now.

And as for the bible

"thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them:"
Deuteronomy 7:2

This is for worshipping a god other than "the Lord".

How about

"21:13 And she shall put the raiment of her captivity from off her, and shall remain in thine house, and bewail her father and her mother a full month: and after that thou shalt go in unto her, and be her husband, and she shall be thy wife.
21:14 And it shall be, if thou have no delight in her, then thou shalt let her go whither she will; but thou shalt not sell her at all for money, thou shalt not make merchandise of her, because thou hast humbled her."

This is the women that are left from a captured city, after the men and boys are killed.
You "take" them, and if you like them you marry them, and if not you let them go. It's okay though, you cant sell them for money.

"God hardened the heart of the king of Heshbon and so that he could have him and all of his people killed."

"If you worship the wrong god, God will get jealous and kill you."

He also demonstrates numerous times that he uses his followers to do that.

"God instructs the Israelites to kill, without mercy, all the inhabitants (strangers) of the land that they conquer. "

It's all bullshit.

It's the same bullshit too.

You're very eager to show one side of the story without showing the other.

Yes there was a public outcry in the UK. I suspect it was the same over there, but you may not have been listening.

I'm not Christian.

Theres a difference which you seem to be ignoring suas. Many Christians don't still take the bible literally. ALL Muslims do. YES, Christianity has done some horrible things, and there are certainly passages in the bible saying "smite the nonbelievers," etc, except are you seeing any crusades? Are Christians killing all non-christian "infidels?" Do christians believe that there is forever an ongoing, never ending war between christians and non-christians?

Christianity as a religion has "evolved," Islam is still just as primitive as it (and Christianity) were a thousand years ago. And its primitivity (is this even a word?) is what threatens the MODERN world today.

And as for "would the us bend over if it was invaded abd made to convert blah blah blah," since when is the US's mission in Iraq to convert muslims to christianity? And I know that I for one would welcome with joy a liberating force if I was living in a coutnry under a dictator who would kill anyone for angering him, and gassed his own citizens.

stats

Jan 19, 2005, @ 07:29 PM

Don't baptists believe in the 'Literal' word of the kjvi version of the bible with NO interptretation?

DrunkenUno

Jan 19, 2005, @ 07:33 PM

Don't baptists believe in the 'Literal' word of the kjvi version of the bible with NO interptretation?

And that has... what to do with what I said?

stats

Jan 19, 2005, @ 07:35 PM

This

Theres a difference which you seem to be ignoring suas. Many Christians don't still take the bible literally. ALL Muslims do.

I could have sworn that the 'many' wasnt there when i first read that post.

[Edit] and i also think it is wrong to say 'ALL muslims do'

Karmashock

Jan 19, 2005, @ 08:34 PM

Here you go Karma:

Bear in mind this is not 100% accurate and not a record of 100% of what went on.

http://gbgm-umc.org/country_profiles/country_history.cfm?Id=116
I didn't read the whole thing... I skimmed it... and I didn't see anything in there that said it had been an autonomous state at any point. It looks like it was under the Egyptians, romans, ottomans, etc... but I didn't see anything that said it had been independent in the last 1000 years.

Either way, the holy land is best kept in Israel's hands. They're respecting the holy sites and allowing most people to come in and worship as they see fit.

If it went to Islam it is unlikely that it would be as open and more likely that the old temples would be destroyed.

If I were an Israeli then I'd be happy to give the arabs much of the land that Israel took as a spoil of war after it was attacked from four sides at once.

I'm sorry, but that land alone does belong to Israel by proper right of conquest. If those countries didn't want to lose that land, then they shouldn't have attacked.

Some of that land Israel needs to protect itself... there are rivers and mountains that are important. But the rest the arabs can have.

It's really not that bad... and frankly, Israel is a better place even with the sucide bombings and check points then other places in the arab world.

Really, I don't know what you think should happen? Should the jews leave? That will never happen. They'd die first. Arafat's position on that was "fine, we'll just have to kill them all then"... which is a lot worse then what I'm saying.

I want people to live long healthy lives in peace. That means some sides are going to have to compromise. Israel has very little room to back into here... They can't give away things that will kill them. So the arabs are going to have to accept less... or go to war.

And if they go to war, then Israel is in its rights to show no more mercy then the enemy.

Love and Peace, Karmashock.

Ummon

Jan 19, 2005, @ 09:30 PM

Great posts Drunk.

shutupandshave

Jan 20, 2005, @ 12:43 AM

Are Christians killing all non-christian "infidels?"
No

Are Muslims killing ALL non-Muslim "infidels"?
No

Great point.

Do christians believe that there is forever an ongoing, never ending war between christians and non-christians?
No

Do Muslims?
None that I have met no.

I have met quite a lot.

However, I do accept that from the background of Mohammed is very very suspect, compared with the background of, say Jesus for example.

Chritianity seems to have the new testament that redeems most of the bad points of it. To my knowledge the Koran doesn't have that.

However, I still find it difficult to accept what you're saying about how bad the Koran is when you say things I believe, from first hand experience are not true.

Comments such as "ALL Muslims do."

As for:
except are you seeing any crusades?
A Christian leader burling into Iraq to free it from it's oppressive values? Has a very familar ring to it.

/<yle

Jan 20, 2005, @ 12:49 AM

So trying to make the world free is a bad thing?

shutupandshave

Jan 20, 2005, @ 01:07 AM

Trying to impose what you believe is freedom on the world is, yes.

That is what the Christians in the crusades did through violence. Doing it through brainwashing - or infection or whatever Karma calls it, is also wrong.

I think you forget that other people have the freedom to make up their own minds.

/<yle

Jan 20, 2005, @ 02:25 AM

Are they truely free if they cant worship whom they want to? if a woman cant leave her house without wearing a bulky burka because the state law demands it? Are they truely free? The crusades happened because Muslims cut off access to Jeruselem (sp) and the holy land from European christians. If the KKK wanted to rally in my town, i say let them, if the Blackpanthers do to0, let them. As long as their not lynching someone, I say let them. Sadly, they want a theocracy installed, not free government. What will the northern christian kurds do? Not everyone in the country is Muslim.

Karmashock

Jan 20, 2005, @ 02:35 AM

You can't impose freedom anymore then give someone a negative bill or negative tax. It's a contradiction in terms. You free people or you enslave them. They were in bondage and fear to their lord... and we are freeing them. If we just left without maintaining order then the country would dissolve into civil war… likely with another tyrant claiming dominion of them again. We are ensuring that the tyrants have no chance… nothing more or less.

The only people we are imposing anything on are the people that were brutalizing them.

This next election will have them elect people to represent them in the drafting of their new constitution... This is man unbound. Only the tyrants can call foul.

JADezimar

Jan 20, 2005, @ 03:31 AM

Were they robots flying those planes into the side of the twin towers or the pentagon

You only help prove Karma's Point. Who in the MiddleEast, at the time, were we pressuring or at war with? Have we been assaulted since we have started pressuring or doing war in Afhganistan?

MVB

Jan 20, 2005, @ 04:18 AM

I saw "facts about Christianity" and so it caught my eye, so I'm not singling you out b/c you're suas, suas, just b/c the first line of this post caught my eye

Facts about Christianity:

Some people claim to be christians and then order a country into a war that kills 20,000 innocent people. This is the most recent example of what christianity can do.
This is not christianity at fault in any way; you may have been attempting to make a "touche" point, but it falls short. Currently Muslim extremists are committing suicide and murdering people through that approach, as well as conventional means, under the banner of Muslim as the reason. Christians may claim to be Christian, then do things which are unChristian. Bush, and the US in general, is not going "Kill them in the name of the Christian God!"

What would the citizens of the US's do if someone took all their high-tech weapons, and then an army 10 times it's size said they were going to eradicate it? Do you think they'd bend over and convert to whatever? No way - they'd fight.
Refer to above ... I don't think it's at all debateable that the shoes of suicide bombers and people who chop heads off hand-bound women are in any way comparable to the average American. The people fighting are not fighting to make up their own minds; they're fighting to restore a dictatorship, where a select few make up the minds of everyone else, all the time. We're over there attempting to establish a government where everyone has a say; they are attempting to establish a government where the vast majority has no say. They are not fighting for freedom, OR the freedom of the Iraqi people to make up their own minds.

And we'd be speaking German if the US hadn't intervened.... but you wouldn't have intervened if you hadn't been attacked first... up until that point you were just playing the loan shark. You were forced to enter the war... remember that too...
America entered the war when Japan attacked at Pearl Harbor, but we were going to enter it anyway; if you must question this, I'll provide oodles of proof; America, and Americans, were ready for war with Germany and Japan ... Japan attacked first, but America had already passed the point of no return ... we were going to war, we knew it, and the American people wanted it

Incidently, what language would you be speaking if it wasn't for Europe? None... but that's old news. Incidently wasn't that the same war the US dropped a Nuclear bomb on a TOWN/CITY in Japan? If we're going to remember that far back perhaps we should start complaining about the use of WMD by the US? Of course, most of us dont look that far back because we realise that it isn't relevant now.
What language would you be speaking if not for bacteria? None, b/c you would have never evolved. Forgive me for thinking the "butterfly effect/related history" argument blows. Polling and questioning of Americans -- even scientists working on the bomb -- prior to and after the bombing of Hiroshima/Nagasaki shows that Americans had NO IDEA from top to bottom that nukes were as damaging as shown. Americans had trouble deciding whether they liked the idea of using chemical weapons on the Japanes, but weren't hesitant at all about using the nukes. They didn't think they were WMD at all (not even close). They just thought "big bombs." Maybe we should talk about intentional bombings of civillians by the Brits.

And as for the bible

"thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them:"
Deuteronomy 7:2

This is for worshipping a god other than "the Lord".

How about

"21:13 And she shall put the raiment of her captivity from off her, and shall remain in thine house, and bewail her father and her mother a full month: and after that thou shalt go in unto her, and be her husband, and she shall be thy wife.
21:14 And it shall be, if thou have no delight in her, then thou shalt let her go whither she will; but thou shalt not sell her at all for money, thou shalt not make merchandise of her, because thou hast humbled her."

This is the women that are left from a captured city, after the men and boys are killed.
You "take" them, and if you like them you marry them, and if not you let them go. It's okay though, you cant sell them for money.

"God hardened the heart of the king of Heshbon and so that he could have him and all of his people killed."

"If you worship the wrong god, God will get jealous and kill you."

He also demonstrates numerous times that he uses his followers to do that.

"God instructs the Israelites to kill, without mercy, all the inhabitants (strangers) of the land that they conquer. "

It's all bullshit.

It's the same bullshit too.

You're very eager to show one side of the story without showing the other.

Quoting only the Old Testament won't get you very far in an argument about Christianity. The OT is Jewish scripture; to Christians, it is purely Church pre-history; an interesting read, without a whole lot of application to contemporary Christianity. Find fire and brimstone in the New Testament, which provides the foundation for Christianity, and you'll find my eyebrows raised a little more.

Quote:
Where are these moderate Muslim clerics who renounce the attacks of 9-11 ? Do any exist?

Yes there was a public outcry in the UK. I suspect it was the same over there, but you may not have been listening.

Suas, the clerics in most Middle Eastern nations teach anti-Westernism/Americanism. The moderates simply teach it on a more subdued level (i.e. we shouldn't be like the West, as opposed to SLAUGHTER THE INFIDELS ALLALLAALALAAAAA). There certainly was SOME outcry though.

DrunkenUno

Jan 20, 2005, @ 05:08 AM

A Christian leader burling into Iraq to free it from it's oppressive values? Has a very familar ring to it.

Saying that the US-Iraqi war is a crusade is laughable at best. Its not because of religion (thought that factors in a bit), it is from the other world evil almost as bad: politics.

stats

Jan 20, 2005, @ 11:00 AM

What language would you be speaking if not for bacteria? None, b/c you would have never evolved.

That made me laugh =]

Oh and Karma muslims absolutely would respect holy sights - no doubt of that atall in my mind. Isreal on the other hand, blew several different kinds of shit out of bethlehem. And what happened to the hanging Gardens of Babylon in iraq? So that point is rubbish.

Also no, i would not displace the isreali's atall. EVER. I would however have the palestinians given a state in the territory that is suppose to be thiers and i would move in western forces to anihalte and relocate isreali settlements in palestinians territory and once they are settled and stable i would arm and train them so that they may protect themselves from the likes or jordan and further isreali incursions. If the isreal really wants a wall - I would have the one they have taken down and rebuilt IN THERE land as it is it takes huge chunks out of what little palistinian land there is.

Arafat was a hero (when he was young) - he seriously lost his way (but that was not after years of trying), he brought the palestinian ppl together and brought there plight to the international community, he worked HARD to bring peace, but he failed. I seriously doubt the man they have in power will keep it for long, or come anywhere near as close to peace as arafat did - he is pathetic. But i may be proven wrong and i hope so. And If the gaza strip etc bleongs to isreal by proper right of conquest then why did we have a first gulf war?

I think the point has gotten a bit lost. Iraq is done and dusted and we can't leave it now so there is no point in whinging about it. Question is can we keep going bombing and 'freeing' muslim countrys? And has everyone forgotten that pakistan are our allys and are muslim?

JADezimar

Jan 20, 2005, @ 11:47 AM

For a man that gets pissed off about calling someone terrorists, You support one named arafat. You need to read my signature. (Stats may have me on ignore if someone would like to point this out for me)

Question is can we keep going bombing and 'freeing' muslim countrys

Who said this was purely about muslims?

shutupandshave

Jan 20, 2005, @ 01:08 PM

Bush, and the US in general, is not going "Kill them in the name of the Christian God!"
Point well made. Very true. It could be argued that Capitalism is the new God (the god of greed incidently) and that would be a very interesting discussion, and could be relevant here... but yes - I accept that America is not having a Christian war.

I don't think it's at all debateable that the shoes of suicide bombers and people who chop heads off hand-bound women are in any way comparable to the average American.
Of course not - and your implication that they are comparable to the average Iraqi is incorrect at best.

Japan attacked first, but America had already passed the point of no return ... we were going to war, we knew it, and the American people wanted it
I heard they didn't.

What language would you be speaking if not for bacteria?
It was not me that started with the "hey guys, we saved your Ass". I think it's irrelevant too.

I am pointing out that you can quote from the bible and make christianity look appalling, and it's only those that really know a lot about it that are able to argue. I am fully aware of the differences between the old testament and the new testament.

Suas, the clerics in most Middle Eastern nations teach anti-Westernism/Americanism.
That has nothing to do with an answer to the question. Just anti-Muslim comments.

Edit:
Jad What the hell are you talking about? Where did you get Arafat from, and how the hell can I support him - he's dead you moron.

JADezimar

Jan 20, 2005, @ 03:12 PM

Edit:
Suas
Jad What the hell are you talking about? Where did you get Arafat from, and how the hell can I support him - he's dead you moron.

Lol Saus you really think I am alwayz responding to you? I think you need to go visit ummon. I was responding to stats.

Ummon

Jan 20, 2005, @ 03:42 PM

Muslims respects holy sites when they can use them for their own rites. Otherwise, they destroy them.

Today's news, Italian cemetery defiled in Mogadishu, by Islamic extremists.

Also, remember the two stone Buddhas in Afghanistan. Bombed and destroyed by Talibans, because they were "Idols".

No, sorry, Islam = Evil.

shutupandshave

Jan 20, 2005, @ 05:02 PM

So Bush isn't a true Christian?

Morpheus

Jan 20, 2005, @ 05:12 PM

Well, that definition is my opinion. I've spend alot of time around Christians with very strict believes. Not that they didn't sin, all of us do, it's just the amount of time they dedicated to God...

DrunkenUno

Jan 20, 2005, @ 05:22 PM

Point well made. Very true. It could be argued that Capitalism is the new God (the god of greed incidently) and that would be a very interesting discussion, and could be relevant here... but yes - I accept that America is not having a Christian war.

Agreed 100%.

shutupandshave

Jan 20, 2005, @ 05:29 PM

Well, that definition is my opinion. I've spend alot of time around Christians with very strict believes. Not that they didn't sin, all of us do, it's just the amount of time they dedicated to God...
Surely though, even a half-baked Christian would know that sentancing someone to DEATH is about as anti-christian as you can be?

Edit:
I was looking at a local news website for a friend that was on there about something, and the "daily poll" was "Do you feel safer with President George W Bush in power?"

The answers were:
Yes 18.08%

No 81.92%

So yes, it seems that the general concesus, at least in middle class Britain where I am living, is that we feel far less secure with Bush in charge.

Morpheus

Jan 20, 2005, @ 05:37 PM

New Testament clearly states not to kill and to forgive your enemies, so yeah, that would be anti-Christian.

Edit : as for my opinion of Bush - before elections I went to a website to compare my views to those of Bush and Kerry, I was below 50% in agreement with either one of them. For now, we will have to live through the next four years and see the consequences of our decisions.

Karmashock

Jan 20, 2005, @ 05:51 PM

That made me laugh =]

Oh and Karma muslims absolutely would respect holy sights - no doubt of that atall in my mind.
The taliban blew up anything that wasn't Muslim in their country.

I have no reason to expect them to respect those sites unless they're guarded.

I'd prefer leaving the Israelis in control instead of bringing back the Templair.
And what happened to the hanging Gardens of Babylon in iraq?
I don't know... what did happen? Are you saying they destroyed them in the last 50 years? :lol:

I would however have the palestinians given a state in the territory that is suppose to be thiers
And what is that? All that land was tanken my israel and has been under their authority for some time.

and i would move in western forces to anihalte and relocate isreali settlements in palestinians territory and once they are settled and stable i would arm and train them so that they may protect themselves from the likes or jordan and further isreali incursions.
You and who's army? They're our friends, jack. They'll back us up when most of europe won't... so forgive us if we feel closer to them then the likes of france.

Here is the point... you're not going to 'force' the Israelis to do anything. We can get them to agree to lots of stuff without pushing them around at all.

Offer something reasonable, get the Palestinians to agree to stop the violence, and we'll get the Israelis to sign.

Arafat was a hero (when he was young) - he seriously lost his way (but that was not after years of trying), he brought the palestinian ppl together and brought there plight to the international community, he worked HARD to bring peace, but he failed.
You're misinformed. He was terrorist. Prior to him coming the area was more peaceful then after he has died. Furthermore, he was offered everything by Clinton and Arafat refused.

He wanted blood and should be remembered for nothing more.

I seriously doubt the man they have in power will keep it for long, or come anywhere near as close to peace as arafat did - he is pathetic. But i may be proven wrong and i hope so.
he's a member of the more radical groups in that area... he's a puppet for terrorist groups. Still, Israel is showing good faith and backing away... if he doesn't deploy the police to control his people as arafat refused to do... then Israel will do it for them.

If the gaza strip etc bleongs to isreal by proper right of conquest then why did we have a first gulf war?
... You're not getting it. Israel was attacked... not the other way around. If Saddam had been attacked then he could have taken some land as a buffer. If france attacked germany and germany repelled france, then it could take some land from france to help protect itself next time.

Question is can we keep going bombing and 'freeing' Muslim countrys? And has everyone forgotten that pakistan are our allys and are muslim?
What does Pakistan have to do with anything? We're not invading Islamic countries. We're invading hostile tyrannies that are threatening our way of life.

We don't give a crap about religion. We're going to push till we feel safe.

stats

Jan 20, 2005, @ 06:07 PM

Hanging gardens, Karma, were used a US base and trashed. Recently, check out the bbc news site - im not hunting a link for you. i'll post more later - i'm going home.

Ummon

Jan 20, 2005, @ 06:36 PM

Stats, Saddam's RECONSTRUCTION of the hanging gardens. The Hanging Gardens were made of bricks: nothing remains of them. Let's try not to spread false rumours.

Karmashock

Jan 20, 2005, @ 06:38 PM

Google gave me this link with the search string "hanging gardens us base"
http://newswww.bbc.net.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4177577.stm

Army base 'has damaged Babylon'
The inner walls of the city of Babylon
A double fortified wall enclosed the city, protecting it from attack
Coalition forces in Iraq have caused irreparable damage to the ancient city of Babylon, the British Museum says.

Sandbags have been filled with precious archaeological fragments and 2,600 year old paving stones have been crushed by tanks, a museum report claims.

The US Army says the troops based in the city, some 50 miles (80km) south of Baghdad, are well aware of its historical significance.

Babylon's Hanging Gardens were among the Seven Wonders of the Ancient World.

Cascades

The legendary gardens featured water diverted from mountain streams cascading down artificial hills built upon stone vaults.

American troops occupied the site in April 2003, initially to protect it from looters and vandals.

Iraq map
Excavations were done in consultation with the Babylon museum director and an archaeologist
Lt Col Steven Boylan

John Curtis, author of the museum's report, said this was "tantamount to establishing a military camp around Stonehenge".

"About 300,000 square metres of the surface of the site has been flattened and covered with compacted gravel and sometimes chemically treated," he said.

"This will contaminate the archaeological record of the site."

He added: "I noted about 12 trenches, one of them 170m long, which had been dug through the archaeological deposits."

Mr Curtis, who is curator of the museum's Near East department, also found evidence of fuel leaks.

Awe-inspiring

But US military spokesman Lt Col Steven Boylan said the base, which has around 6,000 troops under Police command, is needed to "further defeat terrorists and insurgents".

He told BBC Newshour: "Any of the excavations or earth work that we have done in order to do our operations... was done in consultation with the Babylon museum director and an archaeologist."

At the height of its power, Babylon was an awe-inspiring sight, with two sets of fortified walls surrounding massive palaces and religious buildings.

It became one of the most important cities in Mesopotamia, one of the cradles of human civilisation.

Iraq is home to 10,000 archaeological sites.
What does this have to do with the Israelis?

I must say, this does seem pretty stupid... but I'm sure the site isn't ruined... just scuffed.
============================
Stats, Saddam's RECONSTRUCTION of the hanging gardens. The Hanging Gardens were made of bricks: nothing remains of them. Let's try not to spread false rumours.
:lol: Great big ol never mind then :p

I couldn't give a rats ass about that.

stats

Jan 20, 2005, @ 07:35 PM

Ummon, your right about the gardens - i had forgoten about that. sorry. (Was just using it as a counter point to karma's holy site arguement) Although america did do some damage to the city.

The pakistan thing wasnt aim at you karma shock - it was aimed at people saying all muslims are evil. And thats what it had to do with anything.

There is no point in argueing about isreal because it wont solve anything and neither of us know enough about it. And it also sounds like we are both bias towards the opposite side. I dont want to come across sounding like isreal is evil because i dont think that and i completely understand why the isreali people are so desperate to hold on to everything they have. However - when has isreal ever backed the US on anything? So anyway, i'm not agreeing with you, i am dropping it though. So let's just agree to disagree on this one.

JADezimar

Jan 20, 2005, @ 08:05 PM

Surely though, even a half-baked Christian would know that sentancing someone to DEATH is about as anti-christian as you can be?

No I would disagree with morph. He must be a young christian. Christians understand that people need to be forgiven, But must also pay accordingly to what they have done, or society will cease to function. And it is not against the teachings.

Karmashock

Jan 20, 2005, @ 08:40 PM

I dont want to come across sounding like isreal is evil because i dont think that and i completely understand why the isreali people are so desperate to hold on to everything they have.
It's all they've got. They're afraid, out numbered, and have no where else to go.

However - when has isreal ever backed the US on anything?

We have a very close relationship with them. It's nearly as close as our relationship with England... just trust me. They're in our inner inner circle of friends.

shutupandshave

Jan 20, 2005, @ 10:16 PM

No I would disagree with morph. He must be a young christian. Christians understand that people need to be forgiven, But must also pay accordingly to what they have done, or society will cease to function. And it is not against the teachings.
Passing judgement of people is not against the teachings of christianity?
If I find you a link that says it is, will you find me a link that says it isn't?

JADezimar

Jan 20, 2005, @ 10:43 PM

Lol suas. Are you a pentocostal christian in america? To fully understand it you have to attend churches Regularly read the Bible. Pray, And Go for years, Even then you will probably not know everything. Stop trying to argue something you can only assume about by reading. You can easily take christian teachings and documents out of context at the flip of your play on words. What you have stated above is a perfect example.

So really to understand the church you have to be the church. That is A Marine Corps Statement with the word church instead. To continue to try and make points on something you are not invovled in is ludicrous.

shutupandshave

Jan 20, 2005, @ 11:12 PM

Okay JAD, I will concede this point, if you will let me?

*smirks*

JADezimar

Jan 20, 2005, @ 11:30 PM

sigh* Tis boring when you do that.

shutupandshave

Jan 20, 2005, @ 11:35 PM

So is that a yes?

JADezimar

Jan 20, 2005, @ 11:57 PM

I c no reason to rehash. What is already covered.

shutupandshave

Jan 21, 2005, @ 12:00 AM

Okay

Well until you have been a European you cant comment on Europeans (according to your logic) and until you have been a terrorist you cant comment on terrorists, and until you have served in Iraq you cant comment on soldiers in Iraq.

*smiles*

Trapped by your own logic.

JADezimar

Jan 21, 2005, @ 12:22 AM

Do not be pathetic and stupid. What I say about christianity completely applies. You cannot just read an exert from the bible and litterally interpret it, You have to read the whole damn testament. And even then different churches, sects interpret differently. You cannot understand it. You will not, you do not have the mind to understand it. Just as most will not understand the marine corps.

Your talking apples and oranges. And just trying to be a hecklar.

sues

Karmashock

Jan 21, 2005, @ 01:12 AM

... stop.

Critta

Jan 21, 2005, @ 11:39 AM

Do not be pathetic and stupid. What I say about christianity completely applies. You cannot just read an exert from the bible and litterally interpret it, You have to read the whole damn testament. And even then different churches, sects interpret differently. You cannot understand it.

Who says you have to take one particular church/sect's interpretation of the bible as your own?

Do you think all of these churches and sects would exist if people had not chosen to take their own interpretation of the bible?

Why, in that case is any one interpretation any more or less valid than any other?

shutupandshave

Jan 21, 2005, @ 11:48 AM

1) Shut up Critta - you have to have been a church to talk about one.
2) Shut up Critta - you have to have been a bible to talk about one.

JAD, you cant just read a story about Europe and litter interupt it. OR a story about soldiers and just litany upend it. OR a story about terrorists and literaly interpret it.

JAD, your double standards are revealing themselves.

Karmashock

Jan 21, 2005, @ 06:07 PM

please... stop the flames :(

JADezimar

Jan 21, 2005, @ 07:08 PM

Critta
Who says you have to take one particular church/sect's interpretation of the bible as your own?

Do you think all of these churches and sects would exist if people had not chosen to take their own interpretation of the bible?

Why, in that case is any one interpretation any more or less valid than any other?

Thank you Critta your helping me make my point. Different Sects, Different Churches have different beleifs. You cannot just look at putting someone in prison or the death penalty and claim that it is against all Christian beleifs. And Critta far as interpretation, I never claimed 1 Church, Sect was more valid than any beleif or the other. I merely was stating pentacostal views, Which Co-incide not argue with quite a few other Types of Church's out there.

So thank you critta for helping me make my point.

1) Shut up Critta - you have to have been a church to talk about one.
2) Shut up Critta - you have to have been a bible to talk about one.

JAD, you cant just read a story about Europe and litter interupt it. OR a story about soldiers and just litany upend it. OR a story about terrorists and literaly interpret it.

JAD, your double standards are revealing themselves.

And SUES you gonna add anything useful? Or continue to contribute apples and oranges, in an attempt to raise propaganda about me?