Why We Fight

[MVB]

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/08/22/iraq.boy/index.html#cnnSTCText


In war, innocents are killed. The indiscriminate nature of a tank shell or M-16 fire may cause truly terrible things to happen.

But we fight now against men who will voluntarily, and intentionally destroy all that is good for their own ends.

Those claiming you can reason with these people, or claiming that leaving them alone will achieve success are fools.

Those who will take an entirely innocent five year old, douse him in gasoline, and light him on fire for their own ends callously, are evil. Their cause is the destruction of everything not their own, or its subjugation. There is no reasoning with them.

[Karmashock]

No... that's not why "we" fight... it's a reason for the Iraqis to fight... but not for us to fight. If children were getting burned elsewhere we wouldn't swoop into the rescue.



We fight to stop them from burning our children. Call that what you will. It's reality.


Furthermore, what was done to this child was unlikely to be the act of some organized terrorist group. It was more likely a bunch of insane children... more the consequence of the break down of order then anything else.

Meh... what's really important here is securing Iraq enough that it can push back against Iran. If we can do that while keeping Iraq democractic, friendly, and sane... then we can work towards our larger strategic goals.

[Polaris]

Look. We're in the middle of a huge religious war that has been going on long before we got there and will continue long after we leave. For whatever reason, these people want to kill eachother, I imagine for reasons similar to why gangs kill eachother. We're not going to bring peace to this region. It's just not going to happen. With that in view, I'm not sure what we can do. I'm all for staying in Iraq -- so long as we have a clear, obtainable objective. Right now I guess our objective is giving "freedom" to these people. Freedom is a concept new and alien to these people and it won't take root readily amidst chaos and malice. We can't remove either the chaos or the malice since there truly is no reason for either, so they can't be defeated politically, logically, or otherwise.

So what I want to know is what is our objective and what is to say that any time in the future we will be able to leave Iraq and it won't fall in on itself?

[MVB]

Polaris, this religious war is not localized. They mean for us all to perish. There's a reason they assaulted across northern Africa and into Spain and anywhere else they could go back in the day. Die, Convert, Slave. Pick one. Why do so many people delude themselves with the idea that these people only want to kill other Middle Easterners?

If we leave before finishing the job in some way we invite them to return to the US at the fastest possible pace, even if that isn't in our lifetimes.

[/<yle]

I stand by my point, drop the fucking bombs.

[Karmashock]

Polaris, this religious war is not localized. They mean for us all to perish. There's a reason they assaulted across northern Africa and into Spain and anywhere else they could go back in the day. Die, Convert, Slave. Pick one. Why do so many people delude themselves with the idea that these people only want to kill other Middle Easterners?

If we leave before finishing the job in some way we invite them to return to the US at the fastest possible pace, even if that isn't in our lifetimes.
The solution is to convert Iraq into our proxy and bring the war to them. If they're fighting so close to home they're less able to pursue a war abroad.


We've been killing AQ guys as fast as they can make them... probably faster... especially in the higher command areas. What's the average life span of an AQ commander? 1 year to 7 months. How much experience do you think you can accumulate in that time? Not enough.

[tom]

Don't forget about those rowdy Christians, what with the Crusades and all.

[Karmashock]

What does that have to do with anything?

Christians and the crusades have no baring on this conflict besides for in the imagination and rhetoric of the islamists.


Christianity is in no position to go crusading as it's marginalized even in it's strongest bastions.


We are not attacking these people because they're muslim. We are not attacking them because they do not accept Jesus Christ as their savior. We are not attacking htem because they are not jewish. We have no interest in securing a "holy land" for the Son of God. We don't care frankly what religion they are... they do... we do not.


They have declared Jhad. Religious war upon us all. If you ware not Muslim you are an infidel. God declares that you should either be put to the sword, convert, or become the chattel of God's chosen people - The followers of Mohamed.


Only idiots and fools are cowed into inaction by references to the crusades. It's a non sequitor at best and the propaganda of the enemy at worst. Those that repeat it to push inaction are little more then "useful idiots"... the tools Lenin made of those in the free west that thought his new communist state would bring about a better world for their people. I have neither respect nor indulgence for such people... they are best shouted down and at worst ignored. Buying into their suicidal pacifivity born of self loathing is surrender to slavery and slaughter. It is the act of a soon to be shackled people.



Love and peace, Karmashock.

[/<yle]

Plan B for fuck sakes. Use the great silencers. The motherfucking bombs. it should go like this. US forces roll nearby. Phamplets drop from the sky, reading

Come out of your fucking houses, lay on the ground in the street, and turn in all your weapons. If a US soldier is assaulted, this town will be wiped off the face of the earth, permanently.

[Karmashock]

Plan B for fuck sakes. Use the great silencers. The motherfucking bombs. it should go like this. US forces roll nearby. Phamplets drop from the sky, reading

Come out of your fucking houses, lay on the ground in the street, and turn in all your weapons. If a US soldier is assaulted, this town will be wiped off the face of the earth, permanently.

Plan C: You're a moron.

[/<yle]

Plan B is fucking win.

[Apocalypse]

You know, I'm kinda liking plan B...

[Karmashock]

Only people that should go with plan C like plan B.

[tom]

What does that have to do with anything?

Christians and the crusades have no baring on this conflict besides for in the imagination and rhetoric of the islamists.


Christianity is in no position to go crusading as it's marginalized even in it's strongest bastions.


We are not attacking these people because they're muslim. We are not attacking them because they do not accept Jesus Christ as their savior. We are not attacking htem because they are not jewish. We have no interest in securing a "holy land" for the Son of God. We don't care frankly what religion they are... they do... we do not.


They have declared Jhad. Religious war upon us all. If you ware not Muslim you are an infidel. God declares that you should either be put to the sword, convert, or become the chattel of God's chosen people - The followers of Mohamed.


Only idiots and fools are cowed into inaction by references to the crusades. It's a non sequitor at best and the propaganda of the enemy at worst. Those that repeat it to push inaction are little more then "useful idiots"... the tools Lenin made of those in the free west that thought his new communist state would bring about a better world for their people. I have neither respect nor indulgence for such people... they are best shouted down and at worst ignored. Buying into their suicidal pacifivity born of self loathing is surrender to slavery and slaughter. It is the act of a soon to be shackled people.



Love and peace, Karmashock.
Actually, it was a reply to what MVB said above: "There's a reason they assaulted across northern Africa and into Spain and anywhere else they could go back in the day. Die, Convert, Slave." Didn't really read what you said, but I'll assume it was out of context.

[MVB]

It was not an inherent reaction to the crusades kthx.

In fact, one might suggest the crusades were a direct reaction to centuries of Muslim aggression and expansion into Italy, Iberia, and other traditionally European / Western / Christian domains. It was the Reconquista and other events that began to reverse the tide of the Islamic advance in Europe, and this eventually led to the Crusades themselves, which happened after a religion focused on death / conversion / chattel had embedded itself in the minds of the Europeans it had encountered.

During actual war itself, however, well there's always brutality and horror on either side.

Not to derail.

[Karmashock]

Actually, it was a reply to what MVB said above: "There's a reason they assaulted across northern Africa and into Spain and anywhere else they could go back in the day. Die, Convert, Slave." Didn't really read what you said, but I'll assume it was out of context.
Wrong, the Muslim expansion predated the crusades by hundreds of years.


As to my statement being out of context... Depends entirely on why you referenced the crusades? Did you at any point intend that statement to say "hey the west as fucked around with these people too"... If so, my statement was in context.

[/<yle]

Plan B is full of epic win. Apocalypse agrees.

[Quietus]

It was not an inherent reaction to the crusades kthx.

In fact, one might suggest the crusades were a direct reaction to centuries of Muslim aggression and expansion into Italy, Iberia, and other traditionally European / Western / Christian domains. It was the Reconquista and other events that began to reverse the tide of the Islamic advance in Europe, and this eventually led to the Crusades themselves, which happened after a religion focused on death / conversion / chattel had embedded itself in the minds of the Europeans it had encountered.

During actual war itself, however, well there's always brutality and horror on either side.

Not to derail.

The crusades were more of a guilt free landgrab than a knee jerk.

They don't attack us as Islam because of our religion. Christianity and Islam are brother religions. The biggest difference being that Jesus in Islam is one of five messengers, and Jesus in Christianity is the son of God. They share quite a lot. It's easier to just count things they do not share.

Islam believes that both the Qu'ran and the Bible are the word of god. Just that the Bible was corrupted, and the Qu'ran remains pure. They still recognize both. But radical elements in Islam, coupled with their society, instills people with the idea that they must kill nonbelievers, but it's usually for ones personal gain... not his salvation. And by nonbelievers I mean, some radicals interpret that any person of any faith (even their own), studying an impure version of the Word of God, or misinterpreting it (sunni and shia) grants them the right (or obligation) to kill.

There are bad people everywhere. Don't make this a religious thing just because the news convinces you it is.

The head clerics declare Jihad and tell people to kill. Only the radicals follow through because a majority of believers hold Muhammad in much higher regard, and so they know better.

It looks very much like what Karma said. Just some fucked up adolescents. But for the news its a gold mine, tugging on peoples hearts to try and get them a little more behind the war machine.

But we fight now against men who will voluntarily, and intentionally destroy all that is good for their own ends.

I can think of several times in Christianity's history where one could say the same about us.

Polaris, this religious war is not localized. They mean for us all to perish. There's a reason they assaulted across northern Africa and into Spain and anywhere else they could go back in the day. Die, Convert, Slave. Pick one. Why do so many people delude themselves with the idea that these people only want to kill other Middle Easterners?

How many times in history has one person, or group of people attacked another seeking wealth in one form or another?

A better question would be:

Why do so many people buy into bullshit without questioning first?

[Karmashock]

The crusades were more of a guilt free landgrab than a knee jerk.

They don't attack us as Islam because of our religion. Christianity and Islam are brother religions. The biggest difference being that Jesus in Islam is one of five messengers, and Jesus in Christianity is the son of God. They share quite a lot. It's easier to just count things they do not share.
Nonsense.


The similarity does nothing to engender common roots. Christians are infidels.


Islam believes that both the Qu'ran and the Bible are the word of god. Just that the Bible was corrupted, and the Qu'ran remains pure. They still recognize both. But radical elements in Islam, coupled with their society, instills people with the idea that they must kill nonbelievers, but it's usually for ones personal gain... not his salvation. And by nonbelievers I mean, some radicals interpret that any person of any faith (even their own), studying an impure version of the Word of God, or misinterpreting it (sunni and shia) grants them the right (or obligation) to kill.
nice story only it's annihilated by the reality that Muhammad did kill people for being "non believers"... and as the revered prophet of God it's hard to argue that the "radical" element is not also the more correct one. Technically speaking... not morally.



The head clerics declare Jihad and tell people to kill. Only the radicals follow through because a majority of believers hold Muhammad in much higher regard, and so they know better.
The head clerics run their religion. It's the same thing as if the Pope declared holy war upon them and anyone gave a fuck what the Pope thought.


Imagine a vastly more catholic West being told by the Pope to go kill muslims... that's pretty much what we have have here with Islam.


They are restrained principally by their material weakness.

It looks very much like what Karma said. Just some fucked up adolescents. But for the news its a gold mine, tugging on peoples hearts to try and get them a little more behind the war machine.

What did you have to smoke to think the media is behind the war?


That has to be the most asinine thing I've heard all week. The media with perhaps the exception of a few token right wing sources are all against it. The moderates are against it. The leftists are against it... and even a fair number of the right wing sources at this point are against it.



No intention of offense here... but you couldn't have said anything more at odds with reality.

I can think of several times in Christianity's history where one could say the same about us.
Not in modern times. Go back far enough and your ancestors were slaves... some of them were sex slaves... sift time some more and you'll find ancestors that were kings... great thinkers... or complete fucking idiots.


Time works like that.


Of course... in "relevant" time there has been no such incident.

A better question would be:

Why do so many people buy into bullshit without questioning first?
Because everyone needs to believe in something... and whole societies work best if they all hold to some common beliefs. The opportunistic can use that as a weapon for their own gain or other purposes. It's not as simple as you think.

[MVB]

Quietus,

Besides the obvious fact that it is a CNN article, a news agency more apt to get people NOT behind the war than the reverse, and the fact that the argument of "Chrstianity is a brother religion to Islam so the radical extremists have no problem with Christians" is utterly retarded, nice wordsmithing. It sounds significantly smarter than it actually is.

There've been plenty of terrible times in the history of Christianity, and those who fought against such brutality were right to do so. Thing is, that brutality is firmly entrenched in the "extremist Muslim" camp today. And so people are right to fight against them, while they are not right at all to intentionally kill people for being overall innocent yet simply not "extremist Muslim" themselves.

I especially like the inference that my general feelings about Islamist extremists are based on the news.

[Karmashock]

Did you miss the memo, MVB? Apparently anyone that doesn't buy the mass media message that people that aren't against the war have been brain washed by the mass media into thinking the war is a good idea.


Apparently we're all sheeple if we don't allow ourselves to be herded like livestock.


It's so stupid it's funny... and so effective it's depressing.

[MVB]

I suppose you saw the South Park where Bush refers to the American "Sheeple."


"Stan: He was right, you did cause 9-11."
"George W. Bush: Yes. Quite simple to pull off, really. All I had to do was have explosives planted at the base of the towers, then on 9-11 we pretended like four planes were being hijacked when really we just rerouted them to Pennsylvania then flew two military jets into the World Trade Center filled with more explosives and shot down all the witnesses in Flight 93 with an F-15 after blowing up the pentagon with a cruise missile. It was only the world's most intricate and flawlessly executed plan ever, ever. "


"Cartman: Did you know that one quarter of all Americans believe 9/11 was a government conspiracy? Are you saying one quarter of all Americans are retarded?"
"Kyle: Yes, I'm saying one quarter of all Americans are retarded. Let's take a test sample. There's four of us, you're retarded, that's one quarter."

[Karmashock]

I believe the term "sheeple" predates south park... but it did popularize the term.

[Apocalypse]

Plan B FTW!

[Karmashock]

you want to just randomly drop bombs on cities full of frightened, defenseless, and largely stupid people? That's your great solution?

[/<yle]

Perhaps their fear will cause them to quickly become educated and complient. If they cannot voice their concerns in a orderly manner, and their only solution is violence, then tbh, they deserve a violent death. If they start using reason ect, and show that they have the ability to solve their problems without violence, then fuck, we dont need to be there in the first place.

[Karmashock]

if you did that you'd deserve their hatred... and I would oppose you. I wouldn't join them... but I'd happily put a bullet between your eyes.


So again, anyone that thinks that's the solution is a moron.

[Apocalypse]

So we just let them carry on as normal, being frightened, defenceless and largely stupid... Why do you even care about these people. They are just numbers, albeit numbers that will kill you for what ever reason they are using now but numbers nonetheless.

Why are people so damn scared of the bomb, no-one ever wants to use it. I swear the world would be a much nicer place if everyone just opened up with their entire arsenal.

[Karmashock]

because they're not just numbers. If this country stands for anything it's that principle. "We are endowed by our creator with inalienable rights." If you don't like the creator bit because it smacks of "evil" religion... then remove it... Though the statement loses a lot of it's power if you do so...


The very principles that separate ME and I should hope anyone that would call themselves an ally of freedom from the scum that thrive on human slavery... slavery of the mind... the spirit... and the body... what separates us is a respect for people everywhere.


I may not vote to fight for a people in trouble somewhere, but I will never look upon population as simply "numbers". They have families... wives, children, mothers, father, sisters, and brothers. They may want to kill you... And we may be forced to kill them as a result. But we cannot dehumanize them without dehumanizing ourselves. We cannot make monsters out of men without demonizing ourselves.


Some specific individuals have gone so far that there isn't much humanity left in them. But people, as a group, ALWAYS have that in them.



As to the world being a better place if everyone launched their arsenal... you and your family would be dead if that happened. Is the world a better place with your family little more then radioactive ash? I'm no suicidal... and I want my family to live even more then I want to live... your "plan B" would put your family in such a horrible position you'd be better off walking up to them right now, putting a gun up to their head, and pulling the trigger. At least they might get a proper burial that way... if the great nuclear war comes only the wind and rain will be the to bury their bodies.



If you're not joking about this, then you're a fucking moron. Don't expect me to detect sarcasm through the internet, it doesn't carry... so if your next post is something along the lines of "how can you not tell I'm joking"... well... you've been on the internet long enough to know that doesn't work.


Love and peace, Karmashock.

[Apocalypse]

Well I see things differently from you. Population is just a variable number to me, people I will never see (let me define that as people I will never know exist) are nothing to me, 100 people will die tomorrow and I won't shed a single tear, I will only see the number 100.

It is becoming more and more clear to me every passing day that if you get right down to it, read past all the bullshit, religion, politics, humanity, morals, emotions, right, wrong.... It's all pointless. We fight for a pointless reason, we die for a pointless reason, we even live for a pointless reason. Nothing we do has a point and has ever had a point as long as we have lived as a species. There is no choice, no reason, no reward except illusion.

Yea bomb the shit out of them might hurt my family, not bombing them might hurt my family.... the fanatic that would have died by my bomb is now alive and blowing up the bus my mother is riding on. Nothing might happen of course (which is probable) but saying that my mother is still going to die. So again, it's all pointless.

I'm not sure how your trying to carry yourself here, you or MVB or the rest who have spoken in this thread. Whether it's Iraq, or Afghanistan, N.Korea or Russia it doesnt matter. There will always be people rdy to wipe life of the earth at the drop of a hat and EVERYTHING YOU HAVE EVER SAID OR DONE WILL BE ULTIMATELY POINTLESS.

So I say Drop the bomb and just be fucking done with it. No-one is truly innocent anyway.

[Karmashock]

Well I see things differently from you. Population is just a variable number to me, people I will never see (let me define that as people I will never know exist) are nothing to me, 100 people will die tomorrow and I won't shed a single tear, I will only see the number 100.
I'm not crying either, but that doesn't mean I don't think they matter. My ignorance is not proof that they are irrelevant or that their humanity can be discarded.


Simply not knowing someone doesn't mean you get to dehumanize them.

It is becoming more and more clear to me every passing day that if you get right down to it, read past all the bullshit, religion, politics, humanity, morals, emotions, right, wrong.... It's all pointless. We fight for a pointless reason, we die for a pointless reason, we even live for a pointless reason. Nothing we do has a point and has ever had a point as long as we have lived as a species. There is no choice, no reason, no reward except illusion.
Well, sounds like you've have a complete moral and ethical collapse. Probably brought on by moral relativism and a general lack of introspection.

You've started become a nihilist (Someone who believes in nothing) which might be good as nihilism is almost always a transitional phase as you work from one moral system to another.

As you're in that phase I don't think your conclusions can be taken very seriously... they're generally spastic and irrational... much like the random thoughts through a brain in REM sleep... it's a bit like moral white noise...

Yea bomb the shit out of them might hurt my family, not bombing them might hurt my family.... the fanatic that would have died by my bomb is now alive and blowing up the bus my mother is riding on. Nothing might happen of course (which is probable) but saying that my mother is still going to die. So again, it's all pointless.
Silly... One is a possibility, the other is a certainty. The relative probabilities are what make the difference between calculated risks and fucking sucidical decisions.


Example:
If I go swimming at the beach, I could be impaled by a Narwhal horn:
http://members.aol.com/blossom144/narwhal2.jpg

One of the rarest whales in the seas it likes deep cold waters and you're unlikely to find it anywhere you'd want to go swimming... and even if you did, they're not known for impaling people with their horns anyway... but hey... it "could" happen...

Or I could put a gun against my head and pull the trigger... and hey... a bullet may go through my fucking head and kill me.


You're not making a distinction between the "astronomically unlikely" and the "fucking certain"... which is pretty damn stupid.


If you go all agro and start WW3, your family WILL DIE. It's not a maybe... it will happen. The UK is a key NATO ally and a nuclear power. You will get nuked. The US will also get nuked. Russia will get nuked. China will get nuked. Canada will get nuked. Most of europe will get nuked. Africa will not get nuked. The middle east ironically enough probably won't get nuked (possible exceptions being Israel and Iran depending entirely on how stupid they want to be in the whole thing. If they're smart they'll lay low and hope the whole thing blows over without hitting them. If they get involved, they'll be radioactive glass crators just like every country in the UN Security Council.). India and Pakistan may or may not decide to nuke and get nuked... either way... effectively the whole first world will have killed itself off in about 24 hours of sustained nuclear engagement.


You will have handed control of the world over to Africa, South America, and the Middle East... why? They didn't get nuked.


GG, retard.

Unless you live in an area that is rural, of no strategic or tactical interest, and are not down wind of such areas... you will die.



I live in Los Angeles. A major population center in the US as well as a major manufacturing and transport center. I will get nuked if WW3 starts... and I will die.


A terrorist however, has almost no chance of killing me. More Americans are killed in hit and run incidents in the US then are killed by terrorists in IRAQ.


In the US?... besides for 9/11 basically no Americans have been harmed by terrorists on US soil. My ass is pretty damn safe. Of course, europe has a bit of a problem in that they have much larger islamic immigration. That's something you're going to have ot break through the PC bullshit and deal with... or it will eat you alive.


Honestly, if it goes where statistics say it will in 50 years, you might be better off going back to kings and queens. It's that or Islamic law... at least in some countries like France.

I'm not sure how your trying to carry yourself here, you or MVB or the rest who have spoken in this thread. Whether it's Iraq, or Afghanistan, N.Korea or Russia it doesnt matter. There will always be people rdy to wipe life of the earth at the drop of a hat and EVERYTHING YOU HAVE EVER SAID OR DONE WILL BE ULTIMATELY POINTLESS.
Not if they fail it won't. Giving up seems to be your solution... which is no solution at all... that's a loser's plan.

So I say Drop the bomb and just be fucking done with it. No-one is truly innocent anyway.
Stupid. You'll come to realize that eventually. I'll be interested to see what your new moral framework is after you've gone through this transition. You'll know when you start to believe in something again.


Karmashock.

[Apocalypse]

I'm not crying either, but that doesn't mean I don't think they matter. My ignorance is not proof that they are irrelevant or that their humanity can be discarded.

Simply not knowing someone doesn't mean you get to dehumanize them.

Neither does it mean I have to care about them.


Well, sounds like you've have a complete moral and ethical collapse. Probably brought on by moral relativism and a general lack of introspection.

Maybe or maybe I have just seen the light and ironically there is no light?

You've started become a nihilist (Someone who believes in nothing) which might be good as nihilism is almost always a transitional phase as you work from one moral system to another.

I'm not sure how to answer this one, so I'll come back to it later.

As you're in that phase I don't think your conclusions can be taken very seriously... they're generally spastic and irrational... much like the random thoughts through a brain in REM sleep... it's a bit like moral white noise...

I personally don't think I'm being irrational, Your arguing (or at least MVB is, i'm tired and can't be arsed reading up at the moment) about the reasons we fight yet both your arguments are pointless and will lead nowhere.


Silly... One is a possibility, the other is a certainty. The relative probabilities are what make the difference between calculated risks and fucking sucidical decisions.


Example:
If I go swimming at the beach, I could be impaled by a Narwhal horn:
http://members.aol.com/blossom144/narwhal2.jpg

One of the rarest whales in the seas it likes deep cold waters and you're unlikely to find it anywhere you'd want to go swimming... and even if you did, they're not known for impaling people with their horns anyway... but hey... it "could" happen...

Or I could put a gun against my head and pull the trigger... and hey... a bullet may go through my fucking head and kill me.


You're not making a distinction between the "astronomically unlikely" and the "fucking certain"... which is pretty damn stupid.

No, your example was "astronomically unlikely". Mine is quite possible given the circumstances surrounding it.


If you go all agro and start WW3, your family WILL DIE. It's not a maybe... it will happen. The UK is a key NATO ally and a nuclear power. You will get nuked. The US will also get nuked. Russia will get nuked. China will get nuked. Canada will get nuked. Most of europe will get nuked. Africa will not get nuked. The middle east ironically enough probably won't get nuked (possible exceptions being Israel and Iran depending entirely on how stupid they want to be in the whole thing. If they're smart they'll lay low and hope the whole thing blows over without hitting them. If they get involved, they'll be radioactive glass crators just like every country in the UN Security Council.). India and Pakistan may or may not decide to nuke and get nuked... either way... effectively the whole first world will have killed itself off in about 24 hours of sustained nuclear engagement.

And your point?


You will have handed control of the world over to Africa, South America, and the Middle East... why? They didn't get nuked.

Why does this matter?


GG, retard.

At what point did that petty remark become necessary?


... you will die.

Pretty much a universal truth.



I live in Los Angeles. A major population center in the US as well as a major manufacturing and transport center. I will get nuked if WW3 starts... and I will die.


A terrorist however, has almost no chance of killing me. More Americans are killed in hit and run incidents in the US then are killed by terrorists in IRAQ.


In the US?... besides for 9/11 basically no Americans have been harmed by terrorists on US soil. My ass is pretty damn safe. Of course, europe has a bit of a problem in that they have much larger islamic immigration. That's something you're going to have ot break through the PC bullshit and deal with... or it will eat you alive.


Honestly, if it goes where statistics say it will in 50 years, you might be better off going back to kings and queens. It's that or Islamic law... at least in some countries like France.

I got nothing.


Not if they fail it won't. Giving up seems to be your solution... which is no solution at all... that's a loser's plan.

Giving up?... no, just had enough of all the pussy footing about. Either bomb them or do something else of equal value and just end this pointless war.


Stupid. You'll come to realize that eventually. I'll be interested to see what your new moral framework is after you've gone through this transition. You'll know when you start to believe in something again.


Karmashock.

I believe in what I think to be correct. Nothing has a point, your born you die you rot. thats about it.

[/<yle]

My method is perhaps the most effective way of fighting. We wouldent neccicarily have to use nukes on the people. Just bomb them to oblivion if they did not comply.

[Karmashock]

Neither does it mean I have to care about them.
Depends on what you mean by "care"... if by "care" you mean "responsible" of course not. No one is saying you're responsible for these people. However if you mean "I can kill them all and just pretend they don't exist" that's fucking insane.




Maybe or maybe I have just seen the light and ironically there is no light?
Nope... you're morally gagging... you'll either cough that up or choke... if you choke you'll just burn out and no one will want to talk to you. You'll be mildly insane.



I'm not sure how to answer this one, so I'll come back to it later.



I personally don't think I'm being irrational, Your arguing (or at least MVB is, i'm tired and can't be arsed reading up at the moment) about the reasons we fight yet both your arguments are pointless and will lead nowhere.
Provide a "rational" basis for that opinion. Simply stating it and then throwing in some emotional phrases like "there is no light" "it's hopeless" "we might as well kill everyone"


Well... it's pretty fucking irrational, chuck.



No, your example was "astronomically unlikely". Mine is quite possible given the circumstances surrounding it.
your family getting killed by terrorists is astronomically unlikely given current statistics.


That's just a fact. Postulating beyond that point is nothing more then speculation.




And your point?
Is mutually assured destruction a concept you can't grasp right now?...


And you pretend to be rational. *chuckles*



Why does this matter?
It's our civilization... and it's largely the prosperity and happiness of billions of people.


But of course, that doesn't matter right? because nothing matters... go cut yourself emo fucktard... seriously... listen to yourself. Go put some black eye liner on and tell everyone how much you "hurt" inside. Please turn your penis in at the front and no you can't have it back.



At what point did that petty remark become necessary?
Petty? More like a reflection of the respect your statements earn you... If you say stupid things... the general opinion of your intelligence, wisdom, and/or rationality drop.


Now, I could make nice with someone speaking nonsense so obvious a monkey could pick it up... or I could try to shock him out of it with a few verbal slaps to the face.


You're not a moron Appoc... stop acting like one.


Pretty much a universal truth.
Right, so the manner of death... the time of death... none of that is relevant. If we're not immortal beings of pure godlike light that will exist throughout all time in peace in harmony... then we should just kill ourselves right now because anything short of perfect is an excuse for suicide.


Choice, sir... Textbook nihilism. You'll blow out of this stupid phase in a week to a month.





I got nothing.




Giving up?... no, just had enough of all the pussy footing about. Either bomb them or do something else of equal value and just end this pointless war.
Life isn't that fucking simple. Stop acting like a fucking child. Somethings have to be worked through. It takes fucking time and fucking patience. Things that fucking adults can bring to the table.


it is indeed sad that so much of the electorate is filled with a bunch of whiny little babies with the attention span of lemmings.




I believe in what I think to be correct. Nothing has a point, your born you die you rot. thats about it.
Bullshit. I will die, but that's not my purpose. My purpose is to survive and thrive... to adapt... to prosper and multiply. And in the grand scheme that leads to the general health of all and evolution.



So that is what I do. I thrive. I also make decisions that benifit me, my faction, my family... my interests. These islamic twits have decided to throw down with my faction. They're threatening my family... attacking my interests. So my will is that the ideas that drive them be annhilated. I have no hostility towards people. But the software of the mind sometimes needs a good erase.



We don't need to drop bombs on them to win. All we need to do is hold the line. If we do that for a few more years we win. No WW3 required.


I know I know... you can't stand the endless war which basically costs you nothing... poor baby. The UK is pulling out... and getting their asses handed to them while doing so... so it's no longer your fucking problem. If you want to leave in Afghanistan then you know where the door is... Facing serious world issues requires RESOLVE. It requires courage. It requires the willingness to take risks and to put yourself at risk.



If you're not willing to do that, then get off the stage. The US has the resources to pull this off all alone. Whether our politicians torpedo it or not is another story. If they do the same thing they did to Vietnam there's going to be HELL to pay.
================================================== ==================
My method is perhaps the most effective way of fighting. We wouldent neccicarily have to use nukes on the people. Just bomb them to oblivion if they did not comply.

Kyle, seriously... speak when spoken to... you can be seen but should not be heard.


Karmashock.

[/<yle]

my ideas scare you then. Because, honnestly, they are effective.

[Apocalypse]

Gonna come back to your post later Karam, but 2 things I just want to quickly mention.

1. In all honesty, I don't want to pull the troops out. I wasn't exactly happy about them going in the 1st place but if your gonna do a job then finish it. Pulling our troops out now is just insane as you well know.

2. Ah fuck it, I lost which bit I was gonna reply to. meh I'll come back to this later when I'm fresh of mind (just got out of bed after a serious lack of sleep)

[/<yle]

Riding the wifey all night long?

[Karmashock]

my ideas scare you then. Because, honnestly, they are effective.
your ideas are not effective... they are stupid. The idea is about as good as cooking a live cow with a flame thrower.


It sounds good until you realize that the cow hasn't been properly prepared before cooking... it's bouls will burst filling it with shit... which you've just cooked into the meat... to say nothing of the other organs that shouldn't be in there when cooking... and hey, it'll run around while on fire until it dies... which means it'll probably work all kinds of dust into the flesh.


In the end you'll have a big burnt mess that no one will want to eat. You will have RUINED 400+ pounds of good beef... you will be a retard.



The RIGHT way is to slaughter the cow via some quick means that doesn't damage the meat... bolt guns are preferred... but you can slit the throat as well. Then you strip the flesh off the animal and cut out all the organs. You then seperate everything into three piles. Meat, organs you want to eat, and organs you don't want to eat. From here we can slice the meat up into a manageable size for cooking and then put the rest in the ice house.


This takes longer... it requires patience and a little wisdom.

in the end however you get lots of delicious beef properly prepared with a minimum of mess.


Cooking a cow with a flame thrower does not "scare" me... it's just fucking stupid.


Love and peace, KS.

[/<yle]

Well, i dont want to eat them. What do you take me for? a cannibal? however, i do like the idear of them shitting themselves to death and then running around and dying an obviously painful death. See karma, if there is no quarter granted, then they will not fuck around.

[Karmashock]

Well, i dont want to eat them. What do you take me for? a cannibal?
Don't pretend to be stupid... it just magnifies your latent stupidity.


Kyle... I assume the purpose of your "idea" is to make peace through bombing everyone or get people to obey US power.

Well, bombing the shit out of everyone will accomplish neither. It will start a much much bigger war that everyone will lose.

The only peace you'll have is the peace of the grave... and as to respecting US power, for thousands of years those that survive will vilify the US which of course died in the war... as destroying the old world.


it's a stupid idea. If you can't understand a simple fucking analogy then you'd best just climb right back up the tree and rejoin the monkeys.

[/<yle]

No, im talking about ending a centurys old blood feud between peoples that hate each other by FORCING them to get along, and debate publicly. people who live in authoritarian societys generally GET IN FUCKING LINE rather fast, since humans want to preserve themselves. Im talking about putting iraqis in camps if fucking need be.

[Karmashock]

No, im talking about ending a centurys old blood feud between peoples that hate each other by FORCING them to get along, and debate publicly. people who live in authoritarian societys generally GET IN FUCKING LINE rather fast, since humans want to preserve themselves. Im talking about putting iraqis in camps if fucking need be.
the problem with that as I keep trying to explain to you is that there are OTHER countries that would react badly to that. If you start ethnic cleansing we're going to start WW3.


In which case... we all die.



Kyle... seriously... slow your roll... take less drugs... calm down... and deal with the fact that this isn't going to be fast or easy.


if you can't get that through your head, then restrict your conversations in the future to baseball cards or car crashes.

[/<yle]

bullshit karma, they are too pussy to start WW3

[Karmashock]

it works like this kyle... you scare everyone... everyone makes mutual defense agreements... ie "attack this person and you attack everyone in their alliance"... then whoever you're fighting or bombing moves some of their stuff into one of those countries because they think you won't bomb it.


You of course are batshit fucking stupid insane... so you bomb it anyway... thus forcing everyone in the alliance to attack you...


Thus begins WW3.


You're a retard.

[/<yle]

Except, their all in NATO. And, its not like were bombing real people, were bombing the third world, the people were supposed to throw money at to feel better about ourselves.

[Karmashock]

my conversation with you here is done... I can only deal with so much concentrated stupid in one thread.

[/<yle]

Come back karma, dont want to play?

[Karmashock]

You've lost too many times in a row to be challenging... and seem to have no grasp of how the game is played.

[/<yle]

No, You just dont want to play by the real rules. FUCK GOONS!

not these pussy foot rules not based on fucking one side agreed upon conventions. Fight to win, not fight fair.

[Karmashock]

I didn't say anything about fighting fair. I believe strongly in kicking an enemy when they're down... preferably in the face and groin.


That said, I'm not going to charge my enemy naked... and screaming... relying upon my courage and valor to make me bullet proof. Your plan forces the enemy to fire upon us. We have no defense against such weapons. It brings about MAD.


Game over.


For the last time... if you can't understand that, then you have no business in this discussion.

[/<yle]

Third world dosent have MAD. And, it quickly elemenates extremists. Humans have a habbit of wanting to survive. So, if the rules are fucking harsh, but if you play by them you live, then your gonna fucking follow the rules. Why dont people park in handicapped places? this is YOUR arguement. Because they want to avoid being punishment. Place punishment at its highest on them, and you fucking know they will get in line and kowtowbow to the mighty cock.

[Karmashock]

kyle... you know nothing of history or human psychology.


Sure, you can squeeze but as any historian will tell you if you ever stop squeezing those that you squeezed will attack you with all their might.


nearly every great revolution happened when the authority of the time was being NICE. You will doom our whole society into becoming global tyrants forever.


What's more you can't just squeeze the third world without consequences. Your whole outlook is simplistic, childlike, and evil in the extreme.\


Additionally, the third world has resources... that is enough to buy their way into an alliance with Russia, Europe, India, Pakistan, or India.


The only reason russia funds and helps Iran for example is because Iran has oil money to pay them. Bomb them and you force their alliance members to either lose major face or respond in kind. They will respond.

[/<yle]

Hardly. My outlook takes calculated risks. Lets assume for a moment, russia has first strike capability, and nukes the US, only military targets ect, in an attempt to deny a retalitary strike. They dont use their full arsenal, and have moved most of their population to relative safety. Your president. Do you retaliate? Remember, you push the butan, russia launches the rest of its nukes and most of our civilians turn to bacon. GG. No, you back the fuck down and submit.

[Karmashock]

Hardly. My outlook takes calculated risks.
Stop flattering yourself.

Lets assume for a moment, russia has first strike capability, and nukes the US, only military targets ect, in an attempt to deny a retalitary strike.
Again, you're a moron. Russia cannot strike the US without the US responding.


Lets do the math here for you because you are an astounding idiot.


ICBMs "from" russia will take roughly 25 to to 45 minutes from launch to detonation. The twenty minute gap is based upon it's location in Russia... russia is a large place... and I'm a little fuzzy about their exact speeds... say ten minutes of variation from location and ten minutes from uncertainly about speed.


The US will know IMMEDIATELY. We have satellites over russia that will see the heat signiture and will scram immediately.


The US can go to a cold launch in under 15 minutes. Which means that before a single russian ICBM "from" russia hits us we could unload nearly our entirely siloed stockpile of ICBMs.


Now, the Russians could take out a fair amount of our stockpile via close in means. By using ballistic submarines on both coasts they could knockout most of our nukes within about 1000 miles of both coasts... "probably" before they could fire.

To counter this the US of course has it's own fleet of ballistic submarines that would counter attack on Russian targets.


Add to that the US has many silos outside US territory... for example we have a large silo network in Turkey... pointed at russia.



So no... before russia could really get any major hits in our birds would already be in the air.


Mutually assured destruction.



Are you honestly so arrogant and conceited to think that there's been a gaping flaw in our strategic security that only YOU could see when it was over looked for decades during the cold war?


Don't be a fucktard. It's a chess game where both kings are in checkmate. Any attempt to kill the opposing king results in the death of both.


No, you back the fuck down and submit.
Submission = annihilation. The whole credibility of that kind of defense is that you WILL return fire. If you're not prepared to do that then the defense doesn't exist.


Ergo you ARE prepared to return fire. Why you assume that everyone around you would be cowed into submission with a little force can probably only be explained by drug abuse.


Love and peace, Karmashock.

[/<yle]

Believe what you will, Americas responces are notoriously slow.

[Karmashock]

Belief has nothing to do with it. The very nature of the weapons system is that it is fast. We use solid fuel propellent specifically because those missiles can be stored fully fueled and ready to go. That's the difference between solid and liquid fueled rockets. Liquid fueled rockets never have the fuel stored in the rocket themselves but in storage tanks nearby. Fueling typically takes 10 to 20 minutes which is time you don't have when the enemy missiles take at most 45 minutes from launch to hit you.


The president has an officer from the Airforce follow him around whenever he travels carrying what is known as the nuclear football. In the white house this is not required as he has everything he needs there.


The US will know instantly when enemy launches. Most of the delay in our response is due to a general in NORAD calling the whitehouse to get get retaliation confirmation.


Once that happens our birds can be in the air in a couple minutes.


Even if our sites were knocked out before they fired... which they wouldn't be... we have too many scattered silos and hidden sub launchers (Missile range of 7000-12000km depending on payload)... far too many to avoid the complete annihilation of any power in the world.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGM-118A_Peacekeeper
http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/ohio/
http://www.norad.mil/

Do you really think the whole cold war a sissy fight between two little babies that would have caved in to the first one that bitch slapped the other?...


*nails a dunce cap to kyle's head*

[/<yle]

No one would fucking dare use them against say, the US. By your own logic, they cannot.

[Karmashock]

if we harm one of their allies then we'll force their hand. If two people are in a stand off and then one takes a shot at the other... all bets are off... it's a duel to the death.


MAD means that IF you fire on one the other will return fire.


If fire on someone in an alliance with Russia or China they probably won't have a choice and will launch on us. It's that or they lose all credibility as a world power... their whole alliance falls apart if everyone knows that when the shit hits the fan they won't back you up.



Kyle serious... this "idea" of throwing bombs around until people do what we say... it's asinine... you should seriously just be ashamed of yourself.

[/<yle]

No, karma, you should be ashamed of yourself.

[Karmashock]

No, karma, you should be ashamed of yourself.
You should have tried "I'm rubber you're glue"... you would have more perfectly captured that pre school comeback you were apparently going for... :)


Next time have an idea that doesn't include mass genocide before you tell ME that I need to be ashamed of myself... Twit.:lol:

[/<yle]

People are expendable. Dont think otherwise.

[Karmashock]

People are expendable. Dont think otherwise.
It's people like you that lend credence to the typically stupid comment that Americans have fascistic tendencies. For that you should be ashamed. I can only hope you're really kidding when all is said and done. If not hopefully no one even remotely like you will be in a position of power to effect... anything.

[/<yle]

Apoc is highly american. Heil Bush!

[Karmashock]

Apoc only agreed with you because he's extremely frustrated and seems to be emotionally or ideologically unstable right now. That'll pass.

And even if he were completely of sound mind another's support does not help your point. Stand upon your own logic or not at all.

[/<yle]

My logic works. Yours dosent.

[Karmashock]

My logic works. Yours dosent.
"dosent" must be retard for "is better"... or fucking fantastic. :)

[/<yle]

I WIN

[Karmashock]

http://www.theolanders.net/johnr/724you_win_the_prize.jpg

you win the prize...



The retard prize.


As to this discussion you've done little more then embarrass yourself and make me lose respect for you.

[/<yle]

Karma, I dont need your respekt. I have the respect of many peoples, who, unlike you, are not intarweb winnarz.

[Karmashock]

Karma, I dont need your respekt. I have the respect of many peoples, who, unlike you, are not intarweb winnarz.
:lol: An idiot remains an idiot even if he thinks he isn't.

As to these mythical people who respect your opinion... they'd have to live at the zoo to respect the opinions you've expressed in this thread. What did you use to judge they respect you? Did they not fling poop at you? Perhaps it's just they were feeling a little blocked up at the time?

Kyle... your idea of "lets go on a killing spree and hold the world ransom with genocide" is idiotic. The fact that you're serious about it makes you an idiot.

Seriously... you're stupid.