Dollar plunges to record low vs euro

[DrunkenUno]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A27893-2004Nov5.html?sub=AR

NEW YORK -- The dollar dropped to record lows against the euro on Friday, succumbing to negative sentiment and erasing all of the U.S. currency's earlier gains following a robust U.S. October employment report.

Technically driven trading also played a role in the dollar's fall.

The euro surged above $1.2900 and then breached the prior record high around $1.2927 hit in February, reaching new record peaks around $1.2950, according to Reuters data.

The dollar index, a measure of the U.S. dollar's performance against a basket of currencies, fell to a nine-year low. The U.S. currency also fell to six-month lows against the yen and 6-1/2 month lows against the Australian dollar.

Traders were struck by the dollar's inability to sustain a robust rally fueled by the strong U.S. economic data. An undertow of negative dollar sentiment driven by the U.S. current account and budget deficits made currency investors keen to buy euros, analysts said.

"The price action today is nothing short of stunning," said Richard Franulovich, senior currency strategist with Westpac Banking Corp in New York.

"Net-net, given the sharp U.S. upward revisions to payrolls, for the euro to punch higher to fresh highs is nothing short of spectacular. I think this is a pretty good guide at just how entrenched negative sentiment is toward the dollar," he said.

Late morning in New York, the euro was trading at $1.2935, up about 0.5 percent on the session.

Against the yen, the dollar was trading at six-month lows around 105.54 yen, down about 0.4 percent.

Against the Swiss franc, the dollar was trading at eight-year lows around 1.1806 francs, down about 0.5 percent.

In its broad-based fall, the dollar also weakened to a fresh 3-1/2 month low against the British pound.

Sterling was up about 0.5 percent at $1.8531.

"We've seen a shift from cyclical to structural issues such as the twin deficits" that are hurting the dollar, said Shaun Osborne, chief currency strategist with Scotia Capital in Toronto.

"Although it was a pretty good payrolls report ... I'm not too surprised that we had a sell-off. I think people are looking for levels to get short dollars again, and they used the initial reaction to the jobs numbers to load up again" (with other currencies), Osborne said.

"It looks like we are on the cusp of another pretty decent move lower (for the dollar) over the course of the next few weeks," he said.

Earlier on Friday, the dollar had rallied after the U.S. jobs report appeared to dispel some doubts about the power of the U.S. economic recovery.

The report appeared to make a Federal Reserve rate hike in December, which had been questioned recently, once again quite likely.

The report showed the number of new U.S. jobs increased at the sharpest rate in seven months, with a gain of 337,000 non-farm payrolls jobs in October. The number easily exceeded economists' forecasts of a rise of 169,000. However, the jobless rate edged up to 5.5 percent, above the 5.4 percent forecast.

[Justice]

Yeah.

I showed this to MVB yesterday, then challenged him to prove how Bush would reverse the problem.

Did you also know that the Canadian dollar is competing with the American dollar now? Pitiful.

[MVB]

If you read between the lines, you'll see that it was near this low earlier during the Clinton presidency (near the end of his first term), so I think you should avoid placing the blame on Bush.

As for how to fix it? I'm not an economist, and don't know nearly enough about the economy to make a suggestion for what their plan of action might end up being.

[Karmashock]

Earlier on Friday, the dollar had rallied after the U.S. jobs report appeared to dispel some doubts about the power of the U.S. economic recovery.

The report appeared to make a Federal Reserve rate hike in December, which had been questioned recently, once again quite likely.

The report showed the number of new U.S. jobs increased at the sharpest rate in seven months, with a gain of 337,000 non-farm payrolls jobs in October. The number easily exceeded economists' forecasts of a rise of 169,000. However, the jobless rate edged up to 5.5 percent, above the 5.4 percent forecast.

A rate hike should have come a while ago... we're coming out of a recession... :toast:


we're still recovering... we're payign for the spring back in our currency... people forget that the Euro first started trading at 1.25 or something... so we're only down a few cents from what it opened at.

[vacio]

One comment on this which is really another subject all together. . . .

http://www.tlsconline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1747#post1747

[Karmashock]

yeah, that's a big part of it... but our economy is growing at about 3.4~3.7 percent... which is REALLY good for an economy our size... the best you get in europe I think is about 2.5... China can pull 6~9 percent... but it's easy to grow when you're coming up from nothing...

[Ummon]

Is it a problem? I know that U.S. citizens are used to have the dollar as the strongest currency in the world, but it's devaluation does not mean that the dollar will lose importance. Infact, it's still the main currency for world finance and oil trade. The Euro is like the big guy who does the heavy weight lifing for his boss: big and fat, but without any real importance, since Europe is a very, very loose confederation with just a glimpse of central governement. It's the U.S. political, scientific and economical importance which gives the dollar it's weight, IMHO, not the currency's value.

[Karmashock]

Our political significance helps, but what really makes the US currency top is that it's extremely deep. There are lots and lots of dollars. I'm not sure if Europe has equaled us there, but even if they have there is no reason to switch.

Also, Europe actively pumps their currency up. They offer very high interest bonds which makes holding euro's more attractive then holding US Dollars. The down side is that someone is paying someone else to use Euros...

Anyway, it one bad thing is a mostly optimistic picture. The stock market has gained about 300 points since the election... :)

[JADezimar]

I think one thing that may affect the dollar and what is wrong with our nation is not anything to do with the current leader. Its democtrats nad the biast media that gives people twisted views and reports that has nothing to do with the actual numbers. This would then make people reactive stupiditively and then invest in the euro thinking our dollar will fall. Plus All the jealousy and dislike from other nations is what makes americans view our own country so poorly. I think people need to stop thinking about whats wrong with us and thinking about whats wrong with all the other nations and realize how well we are doing and how well it is here.

[Critta]

Plus All the jealousy and dislike from other nations is what makes americans view our own country so poorly.

Jealousy? What exactly is it that we're supposed to be jealous of?

Dislike? Possibly, but that's mainly from the "we are better than you" attitude which many (definitely not all) Americans seem to share. Personally I dislike this way of thinking but have spoken to many Americans who do not conform to the stereotype.

Unfortunately a lot do.

JADezimar, perhaps if you started looking at the problems rather than ignoring them and blaming the democrats, the media and the "hatered of the rest of the world", you wouldn't fit this stereotype quite so well ;)

EDIT: First post and I'm in the political forums already *sigh*

[Larsson7]

HaHa!!

I am delighted with this news.

I have to buy dollars for going to Palm Springs and Hawaii in January and I get a really kick ass rate for it.

Go Recession!!!

[Larsson7]

Jealousy? What exactly is it that we're supposed to be jealous of?

Dislike? Possibly, but that's mainly from the "we are better than you" attitude which many (definitely not all) Americans seem to share. Personally I dislike this way of thinking but have spoken to many Americans who do not conform to the stereotype.

Unfortunately a lot do.

JADezimar, perhaps if you started looking at the problems rather than ignoring them and blaming the democrats, the media and the "hatered of the rest of the world", you wouldn't fit this stereotype quite so well ;)

EDIT: First post and I'm in the political forums already *sigh*


You took your time getting here!

Enjoy all your future arguments with Karma :lol:

[MVB]

Many of the hatreds of the rest of the world directed at America, while maybe not "pure" jealousy, are at least motivated by our size and success.

You don't see Islamic millitants talking about bombing the evil Greeks, or the Poles. Both are technically "westernized" nations as much as any other country, but the United States generates the ire of the rest of the world because as a nation it IS easily the most powerful. It's easy for some Americans to view this as jealousy because it is a related reaction.

Honestly, I think on the whole, counting opportunities for individual success + overall national wealth and power, America is probably tops on the globe, but I don't think that any individual American is inherently better than any individual French person, British person, or anything else.

I think a lot of Americans come to the natural, but wrong conclusion that since America the country is so much stronger than any other individual country, Americans the people inherently get to claim that right also, which is totally bogus.

[JADezimar]

I dont feel im personally better than a french person. But I feel my country is strong and know its a great country. I have pride for my nation and thats what I think Alot of other nations take it as when someone talks about how great america is they misinterpret the words and think that there saying there better than that other person.
Just as you did with me critta. o0 And What another nation thinks about our problems and views isnt important. When they should be doing less pointing of fingers (and do more thinking about there own country). And Stop cuasing unrests in our own population. So I dont feel that me starting to look at that as a problem o0. Would fix me from not fitting that stereotype;) Also I dont directly blame democrats, republicans can do it to when a democrat holds office, But the liberal biast media is not bogus at all and they often times do feed a line of crap to our people.

Things arent as bad here as some americans and most other civilizations make it sound. Is the biggest thing im trying to point out. Those that make it sound bad are usually the outspoken ones. THe minority and usually the minority are the ones that feel mistreated are usually the most outspoken. hence why so many were outspoken for Kerry cuase they are the minority.

[MVB]

I have the utmost respect for JADez's wife as a marine, and it was heartening to hear that Bush has done a lot for our fighting men and women, raising their salaries by over 33% since the Clinton years and giving them much better conditions and standards of living ... just as a "btw" for ya.

[Weavern]

On the origional topic of the american dollar vs the rest of the world... YEY for the CDN dollar!!! :toast: If it keeps up at this rate by this time next year we will be back even with the american dollar if not higher ^_^ Compared to the .62 low the dollar was at last year this .83 dollar is a godsend for our imports. I think much of the problem with the american currency's value is the fed's lack of enthusasm to raise interest rates. While other countries are slowly raising them.

[Critta]

You don't see Islamic millitants talking about bombing the evil Greeks, or the Poles.

I would argue that this is because the Greeks and the Polish haven't been bombing the Middle East for the past 20+ years, but then that's just my way of thinking.

But the liberal biast media is not bogus at all and they often times do feed a line of crap to our people.

Is any other form of media any different? If not liberal, they just feed you crap with a different slant. At the end of the day, mass media is the best propaganda device ever invented, they make you believe what they want you to believe.

Sorry, this post is a little off topic, will leave it now.

[JADezimar]

Ya i agree with that on the media thing in most cases. Which kinda proves my point no?

[shutupandshave]

You don't see Islamic millitants talking about bombing the evil Greeks, or the Poles. Both are technically "westernized" nations as much as any other country, but the United States generates the ire of the rest of the world because as a nation it IS easily the most powerful. It's easy for some Americans to view this as jealousy because it is a related reaction.
When is the last time Greece of Poland invaded Iraq? How about the last time Greece or Poland sponsored Bin Laden? How about the last time Greece or Poland sold Chemical weapons to Iraq?

People dont like the US, because the people in it assume that when someone disagrees with them, they must be jealous. Or because it's citizens seem to consider the entire rest of the world to be second-class to them.

The dollar has to fall a lot more before the US debt problem can be dealt with. The US needs a LOT of foreign investment, and so it has to be economically viable to invest in the US.

People are unlikely to invest in a country at war.

[MVB]

You're not going back far enough, critta/suas ... Islamic militants have been hating western nations since the British occupation and earlier. It began centuries ago with a massive hatred of Christians, which blossomed into the Christians launching crusades to rid the Middle East of Islamic nations that had been invading them and north africa and southern spain for (by the time of the first crusade) hundreds of years.

To blame their hatred on American -- or even further back British -- actions is nearsighted and not analytical of the roots of their centuries-old hatred.


They follow a religion which -- like many religions -- can be misinterpreted to proclaim a need to rid the world of all non-believers, and so they have convinced themselves of a need to war on all non-Muslims. These are not people who want to be left alone to live their lives as they wish in their own nations. THOSE Muslims are not causing trouble. The trouble is caused by people who are as meddling in world affairs as the US and Britain are, NAMELY people who wish to rid ALL the world, NOT just the Middle East, of anything that is not of the same view of Islam as they are.

[JADezimar]

U.S. debt problem ? That has to do with the euro value ? US debt is a fake number in which it really owes its own people that dont have anything to do with economic stability and the value of the dollar. Its the media mostly that feeds a line of crap that our debt affects that which would in then turn people not to invest in the dollar. And your reply to mvb,s part quote When is the last time greece poland invaded Iraq etc, Bin laden etc. We are doing that as a reaction to the terrorism. Not as a pre-emptive strike. Just like Pearl Harbor we didnt do anything to japan before they struck. What did we do to bin laden when 9/11 happened. We have to prevent this stuff from happening in the future and starting with a Country like Iraq will greatly help. Cuase in the years to come well have a country to operate out of. A very rich and powerful ally in the Midddle East. So well be able to control the region more easily to prevent terrorism.

And investment in the euro over the us dollar has nothing do do with people not liking the United States. Its media etc that says our economy is bad. Generally just cuase you dont like A certain company doesnt mean you wont invest in it if you think itll make you bucks. Most peoples greed stands above there principles. ;P

And quote again ppl dont like the us Cuase someone disagrees with them etc etc. No shave We assume your jealous If or seomthing of that nature If you are a person taht dont like us or our nation. Not cuase you were to disagree with us. I dont consider other nations 2nd class to us. I dont c my self as a superior being. But I have pride in my country. And I think alot of the rest of the world misinterprets this o0. I dont have a problem with a person disagreeing on an issue. But to outlike dislike my nation and or I cuase its american because of its opinions or actions, is wrong and would make me to beleive its a jealousy factor. (thats the same as saying that cuase you dont disagree with us we dislike you, But the other way around, if states dont agree with you, then you hate us) And to say that you dislike americans or usa in general is like saying you dislike me.

A country at war I still dont c why that would affect THe investment of the dollar. Time and time again history has shown that Countries economically only grow stronger at war.

[JADezimar]

Mvb My Mother went to a Religion workshop. Had a muslim Or very similiar Religion from the middleast they all said up said some things about there religion well when the muslim guy had finished someone asked him a question. He said something to the affect of that non-beleiver is an infadel. And the muslim guy said yes. And an infadel it is good for your culture to slay correct ( he also stated the reason for why which I cannot remember) the guy said yes. So the person said So why should I love your god when he preaches to kill those that dont beleive, when my god preaches to love those that dont believe ? The muslim had no reply and actual broke down and cried, He changed religions. This is true story my mother dont make this shit up o0. I beleive your history on it is righ mvb and it would xplain why united states is probably still targeted is there deep old hatred for christians. But they are taught from the youngest of age To hate and kill, They are brought up to hate other civilizations and cultures. From the youngest of ages. I dont feel United States and britian in general also feel that islamic culture needs to be eliminated but..... I do think it feels that threats need eliminated. I dont think innocent people in a country like the states or ANy other nation for that matter should die in incedents like 9/11 When there housewives businessm, small 3 and 4 yr old children in the street o0. men completely cut off from the islamic world. They dont deserve this at all, And sitting back idly waiting for it to happen again is wrong. Retribution should be payed and it should be swift and crushing. If there busy fighting over there They cant fight over here :P A homelands soil should alwayz feel safe.

[Critta]

So you are busy fighting Iraq... at this point Al Quieda are free to plan whatever attacks they feel like on American soil, because you are fighting in a country which had no involvement in 9/11.

God knows why you feel safe, I certainly wouldn't.

[shutupandshave]

Actually the roots of the Jewish/Muslim hatred extend back long before even christ was born. Both the Palestinians and Jews invaded the disputed area. I think the original inhabitants were the Canaanites who were driven out when the Jews and Palenstinians clashed whilst simultaneously trying to take the land...however, that is all history now.

I think you are missing the point MVB. The Israelies have committed just as many crimes as the Palestinians. It has nothing to do with looking at things from one side (something that, unfortunately, you seem locked into doing).

JAD - do yourself a favour and dont talk to me
"We are doing that as a reaction to the terrorism. Not as a pre-emptive strike."
"We have to prevent this stuff from happening in the future and starting with a Country like Iraq will greatly help."

This is monumentally stupid, and until you realise why, it is very unlikely I will do anything except make fun of you.

The US is Chrisitian, and Christianity SPECIFICALLY teaches turning the other cheek. When I see the "moral majority" of the US start turning the other cheek with regards to 9/11, I will start having more respect for them.

[Ummon]

Societies are systems based on solidarity, and an offence made to a country is far different from the one made to an individual. You can freely turn your own other cheek if you wish, but when it comes to turning that of other people (your neighbours, countymen, friends, wives) it's beyond anyone's power.

[shutupandshave]

That's completely contrary to evidence. Bush used the fact he was Christian as part of his Campaign. He should stick by those values.

hypocrisy

[JADezimar]

Wow you completely ignored ummons saying in that a country has to REact differnetly than an individual. Bush dont respresent himself he has to represent the country. And critta did you enjoy commenting on one sentence in my posts. When the whole posts xplains to you about your posts statement. What it could mean for us in the future. etc etc. And let me comment again. Ya exactly you wouldnt feel safe living here. Something should be done about that o0.

[Critta]

You're not going back far enough, critta/suas ... Islamic militants have been hating western nations since the British occupation and earlier. It began centuries ago with a massive hatred of Christians, which blossomed into the Christians launching crusades to rid the Middle East of Islamic nations that had been invading them and north africa and southern spain for (by the time of the first crusade) hundreds of years.

It was in the medievil times, everyone was fighting everyone. There were invasions all over the place.

The First Crusade was actually sent out at rumours that Muslims had been attacking pilgrims on their way to Jerusalem, the only part of this story which I find a little confusing is that the story was brought back by those sefl same pilgrims.

I have a feeling this was used as an excuse.

The first actions of the crusades were the slaughter of thousands of Jews before the armies had even left Europe.

The crusades then carried on for 300 years with Christians going over to the Middle East to slaughter (or be slaughtered by) the Muslims who lived there.

At the end of the day, they achieved very little other than souring what little relationships there were between Muslims and Christians, hardly surprising when the standard practice when Crusaders captured a city was to kill EVERY resident no matter what the age.

At the end of the day, it started off with Christians massacring entire populations of Muslims because they were trying to expand their lands and were apparently hassling pilgrims.

To be fair, the Christians then did everyting which Muslims now adhere to. Perhaps they took a page out of the book of the crusaders?

I'm not at all surprised they hate us, and the fact that even today, we continue to wage war in the Middle East just because they don't like us doesn't make us any better, or help the situation.

[Critta]

Ya exactly you wouldnt feel safe living here. Something should be done about that o0.

Waging conventional war on terrorists DOES NOT WORK.

Train some special forces rather than pissing off civilians into becoming terrorists, you might find that the Middle East will hate you a little less.

Gotta go now, will continue tomorrow.

[JADezimar]

You need to be able to come and go freely to do this and Iraq will allow for this. Well be able to have a secretive operations and presence if are there. Special forces is over done by the movies o0. They cant just go fly in and out and find terrorists like finding a phone in the phone section.

[Ummon]

Some short history lesson.

From 622 a.D. (Egirah) to 750 a. D. (the fall of the Omayyadi), muslims have ALWAYS been at war with neighbouring nations. They conquered modern Arabia, Syria, Iraq, Palestine, Egypt, Lybia, Tunisia, Algiers, Morocco, Spain, Iran, Afghanistan and Northern India.

After that they remained at war with all neighbouring nations, but in the XI century they began to lose ground due to Turkish invasions and Crusades.

During the XIII century Mongols, provoked by repeated harassment, gave muslims a big lesson, but after that many mongol states converted to Islam.

The first crusade was in 1096, that's 478 years after Islam started it's conquest wars.

And the ancient world was a violent place, but at least in our culture, violence was not preached as holy, just believed necessary and noble (knighthood was all about war and violence). That's the issue with islam. They have not changed their morals, but the world has changed around them.

[DrunkenUno]

Ummon, I know you are extremely anti-Islam, but please don't try and make it seem like Muslims were the only ones being preached that violence was "holy." The Crusades WERE holy, they were sponsered and ordered by the Pope for fucks sake, to "reclaim the holy land."

Dont be hypocritcal about this, ancient christians were just as bad as ancient muslims.

[MVB]

Suas, what you said is fine, and I don't see what it has to do with anything, regarding Israelis vs. Palestinians. I didn't even talk about the Israelis or Palestinians.

Regarding the history lesson, what you mention is the animosity between THOSE two peoples, which does indeed go back before the time of Christ. Muslim hatred of the United States is tied closely to Muslim hatred of Christians and the European world, which developed prior to the year 1000, and was aggravated by the Crusades.


As for the feeling of security, Al Qaeda and other terrorists are all closely linked, and it is important to note that Al Qaeda is in no way the only group which wants to kill Americans. Many of those terrorist groups are now targeting armed Americans in Iraq, instead of unarmed and helpless civillians doing their daily business in a tall tower in America. Al Qaeda itself has operatives acting against us now in Iraq, and it's honestly unknown for sure whether there were any ties between Al Qaeda and Saddam, though it's been found that there is no proof of either a presence or absence (save the absence of proof otherwise) of such a tie.

The reason, however, that we have had no attacks on us since 9/11, is partially due to the fact that we have troops deployed in counterterrorism GLOBALLY. American special and regular forces have, since 9/11, been engaged in anti-terrorism-oriented activities in Africa, South and Central America, Afghanistan (we have a lot of troops there still), and a few other places. I feel EXTREMELY safe compared to 9/11 because we are NOT just focusing on Al Qaeda. I wish people wouldn't come to the wrong assumption that all of America's resources militarily and otherwise are buried in Iraq, as if we aren't paying attention to anything else.

[DrunkenUno]

SEX!

[JADezimar]

Ummon was showing I believe that the muslims themselves have alwayz been violent and not the innocent race that people try to preach that are anti states or un in the middle east. It also shows that they were the pre aggressors, and From what it appears trying to maybe take over the world o0 Invading multiple coutnries etc. Maybe these crusades not only were for the holy land but it was to liberate the world of a culture trying to crush it.

(with them being the original aggressor and then the christians going in on the crusades, Just starts that day age old vicious cycle o0)

[Karmashock]

the biggest thing going against the dollar right now is that we haven't been trying to keep it strong for at least three or four years... why would you invest in currency that isn't interested in keeping value?...


the fed needs to raise rates and reduce the cash supply so that hte currency stablizes... it's just that simple.

[MVB]

Mohammed, the founder of Islam, was a military general who conquered large sections of the world, using his religion as a banner. That's simply how things originally happened. He often is known to have received new messages from Allah that coincided with personal desires in his life, from engaging in military campaigns to marrying the 6 year old daughter of a close personal friend. Islam today can be a wonderful religion, but many of its followers do not even know that its origins are strongly entrenched in Christianity, with Mohammed himself having lived a great deal of his early life with Christian monks as a servant (not sure about the servant part, will look it up again). Regardless of its higher qualities today, it was begun as a religion of war and conquest, as well as of personal gain ... Mohammed himself had MORE wives than the Koran permitted, for instance.

[Ummon]

The Catholic Church proclaimed that crusades were holy to react to a grave and unprecedented threat, almost 500 years of Islamic holy war. There's a reason if crossbows were prohibited in wars between Christians and not if used against muslims. Islam had been a menace for almost four centuries when the church decided to react. They reacted proclaiming holy war vs holy war. A mistake, but not a dogma.

Islam states that war against the infidel is holy, always and forever. Not so the christian church, where crusades were circumstantial. Furthermore, no more crusades have been proclaimed by christians in centuries. There are deep and numerous differences between christian crusades and muslim holy wars. One being that christian circumstantial crusades stem from one infinite and continuous muslim holy war. In this sense, Christianism has been influenced and corrupted by Islam. Do not forget infact, that medieval culture and literature in Europe was heavily conditioned by Islamic influences.

[Karmashock]

I miss the holy Templar... those guys ruled... they were the most holy warriors that the Christians had... and I think they were by far the most zealous fighters in the history of war.... If you read up on them you can't help but be amazed by the dedication... suicide bombers haven't got shit on them...

[JADezimar]

I did not know of them you got a link could be interesting read o0.

[Karmashock]

google is your friend... :google:

[shutupandshave]

violence was not preached as holy
The Catholic Church proclaimed that crusades were holy

Wait, so violence was preached as holy, or not? I'm confused?

[Ummon]

I am sure we all know what the words "circumstantial" and "absolute" mean...

"Kill those muslims to free the holy sanctuaries" is circumstantial.

"Kill, enslave or convert all infidels" is absolute. And by the way, it's absolute even as it means "kill them or enslave them if they don't agree to convert" because it justifies the idea that if someone doesn't agree with you you can kill him, and there's no limit to the level of disagreement which can trigger violence after you affirm that principle, given the erratic nature of human opinions. Finally, if I want to convert or not is none of a muslim's business.

So it's not violence in general which was preached as holy by christians, but that particular violence. Not so in the case of muslims, or at least, the meaning of violence which is preached as holy by muslims is a lot broader and more permanent than that of christians.

Finally, christians have at least apologized for the crusades, but I have never heard a muslim apologize for the Islamic conquest of christian Syria, christian Egypt, christian Anatolia, etc. etc. etc.

Mistaken syllogisms are easy to detect and bad rhetoric tools.

[shutupandshave]

I've never had a muslim try and convert me, and I've met lots.

I think your view of Islam is mis-guided.

[Karmashock]

The thrust of this aggression... what's stirring it all up... is Saudi Arabia... Wahhbism...

This campaign circles around them... we can't attack directly... we will convert the field around them until they are forced to change.

[MVB]

I'll bet you haven't met many born and bred middle eastern Muslims from extremist, highly-restrictive nations. The only ones I've met are people from places like Iran who LEFT because the majority of the Muslims there were so extreme and, to literally quote 3 of them at one time, "insane."

Islam as a religion can be taken one way or another, and you can't really view the religion as bad. The facts state its founder was a self-centered gloryhound who LITERALLY would go into his cave when he came across a new moral quandary (I want to marry this 6 year old) and come out having ONCE AGAIN been spoken to by Allah, and look, now I can marry 6 year olds! He also was a military general who had a hatred for Christians, and committed a large # of atrocities on them; he also FORCED people to convert everywhere he went.

This doesn't mean modern-day Islam is inherently bad simply b/c its founder was corrupt in a wide number of ways. Many Muslims are fantastic people, especially Muslims living in free nations, like the UK and the US, France (although if you want to talk about oppressing Muslims, the French treat their Muslims like SHIT in some ways), etc.

It is a much EASIER religion to abuse, however, for evil purposes such as terrorism and murder. This is simply because its founder did add in caveats to justify his own religion-backed wars. Jesus did not "modify" Christianity so that wars were ok. Powerful and corrupt Christian figures HEAVILY and ridiculously stretched Church doctrine to justify the Crusades, so much so that many Christian leaders spoke out against the Crusades and were in one way or another silenced.

I just think you have to be fair-minded in assessing things; the facts are that Islam has a built-in acceptance of murderous holy war. The facts ALSO are that many, and probably a vast majority of Muslims are perfectly good human beings, with nothing wrong with them.

[shutupandshave]

Once again, I agree.

How many extremist Muslims have any of us met though? None, almost probably.

This is the important factor here.
a vast majority of Muslims are perfectly good human beings, with nothing wrong with them.

[MVB]

That's the point with the whole none have converted us "thang" suas. If you go to an extremist nation, you'll find the majority ARE extremist; this doens't mean they're "bad," but they are the kind of people who will try to convert you or dislike you if you say no. The minority, however, are terrorists.

Maybe this winds its way back to the dumbassed argument that the majority of the Iraqi people want us out of Iraq. Nonbiased polling (not polling only heavily anti-American districts) has shown a majority of Iraqis are glad we came, want us to leave when feasible, but also want the job done before we go.

[shutupandshave]

Can you link me to these polls, I've heard contrary - and would be very interested in reading up on this.

[MVB]

Apr 2, 2004
ABC News
71% of respondents in Anbar province, which includes the town of Fallujah, view attacks on coalition forces as acceptable; among all Iraqis, only 17% feel this way.


Mar 16, 2004
ABC News
More Iraqis say the United States was right to go to war than say wrong, yet they are divided whether it humiliated or liberated Iraq.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/pressoffice/pressreleases/stories/2004/03_march/16/iraq_polls.shtml
... march 16th, 2004
One year on from the war, more than 2,500 Iraqis were asked about their lives today.

Overwhelmingly they say life is good right now, and more of them support than oppose the war.




http://powerlineblog.com/archives/008379.php
Haider Ajina sends us the results of a poll taken in Baghdad, Mosul and Dehok and published in Iraq on October 25. The poll probably over-sampled Sunnis, which makes its results even more striking. Haider writes:

63% of Iraqis say that the withdrawal of American and allied forces will not be in the best interest of Iraq, it will undermine the work towards security and control of the country. 27% say that it would be in the best interest of Iraq. 9% had no opinion.
58% say that terrorists do the kidnappings and assassination of police and soldiers. 9% say that patriots fighting for Iraq carry them out. 32% say ignorant Iraqis who have been brain washed & misled carry them out.

89% said that the terrorism, kidnapping, beheadings and assassination of police and security forces do not help the freeing of Iraq and the building of a stable country. 6% said that it would help free Iraq and build stability. 4% had no opinion.

Just for starters

and again, I don't disagree that the Iraqi people wish American forces weren't in Iraq, but they don't WANT them to leave until the job is done, and they conditionally appreciate what they've done, believing their life to be better now than it was before the Americans (and all other coalition forces) came.

[Ummon]

Although I have had a muslim try to buy my mother and me for 400 sheep and 50 camels when I was a little kid, because we both had blond hair at the time, (fair hypothesis is that he wanted to use us both for sexual entertainment), I have to say no muslim has ever tried to convert me, although not so my mother for example, who regularly visits muslim countries. But conversion generally comes AFTER invasion in muslim ways: even though the koran states otherwise they find it's more efficient thusly.

And suas, please, do not try to assimilate my ideas to something shameful, my ideas are much akin if not exactly identical to truth, on this subject. And they have not been provoked by the american popular sentiment or war on terrorism, which they predate, but by my personal dislike for evil, treachery, dishonour and lies, things that can be found in unparalleled abundance in the Islamic canon, literature, culture and history.

Evil ideas produce often evil actions and form evil people, and even if they do not in some specific lucky cases, they should nonetheless be avoided because of their probable and sometimes unavoidable effects.

I have never said that all muslims are evil, but islam remains, as communism is, an evil system, and you can disagree as much as you want but you have no real argument to disprove this.

[JADezimar]

Ive talked to several servicemen that were constantly thanked in Iraq, You should here some of the stories about how happy they are in general to have us there o0. On the other hand I Do disagree on the fact that muslims themselves are evil people, I am sure there are plenty of good ones out there. But You look at the religion that preaches kill or convert. From the xtremists point of view which is very commen in the middle east -_-. And its ok for it to be holy. So many people go back and dog on the crusades when In fact they were eliminating a worldwide threat similiar to that of germany in WWII. Anytime A part of the world is trying to conquer the rest, Whether its in the name of god or not I c fine justification to putting the stop to that.

[shutupandshave]

believing their life to be better now than it was before the Americans
Thats one of the most important things - perception.

I would question the validity of any of these polls - I am sure if al-jahzeera did a poll that said Iraqi's hated the allied forces, you'd take it with a pinch of salt...
Very interesting - and sounding a lot more positive than I thought.

I think one of the things that really concerns me though - is that the U.S. is going to be controlling Iraq when they've pulled out - extracting oil. Apparently there are $5bn of oil "missing" from Iraq already (according to Amnesty International). That's a lot.

Anyway, thanks for the links, and one in return.
http://people-press.org/reports/display.php3?ReportID=206

I am still unconvinced that it is at all possible to get a truly honest answer out of the Iraqi's regarding whether they want us there, but it will be a very important thing when/if it is internationally recognised that they are.

[JADezimar]

Hmmmmmm Got to pay back for the war one way or another =x lol

And shave your last comment about Us controlling Iraq. Thats the true fear that other nations governments fear. Thats why theyve fed so much anti Iraq and States sentementisms to you. Its called political pressure. Political Pressure is A tactic that a government does to Create a dislike and frustration from nations towards 1 so that that nation has unrest with its populace and a harder time with those nations.

[MVB]

The polls are one thing, suas. Another thing is that I know MANY soldiers in Iraq. I know that every day they are trusted with the care of the CHILDREN of many of the citizens of Baghdad. The kids follow them around, are allowed into the green zone to play in relative safety, etc. They are graciously thanked for food drives and other such things that American soldiers have been doing in conjunction with their relatives back home. The Iraqi people are not a bunch of American hating individuals, contrary to what news sources such as Al-Jazeera would have you believe.

Fact is, the Americans are generally viewed as a good thing in Iraq. No, they don't want their nation run by foreign soldiers, but the job they are doing is appreciated. There is no other way of it, no matter how much anyone -- terrorist or otherwise -- wishes something else was the case.

[Karmashock]

MVB did remind me of all the Muslims in LA that fled the middle east with tails of the repression at the hands of their governments and cultures...

they came to the US to start a new life... funny that...



Whenever someone tells me the US blows, all I have to do is look at all the people dying to get here… not much more to say on that…


Oh but we're the great Satan... yeah... and fascists... I’m getting a swastika tattooed in my forehead…

It's true... I have horns... they're pointy...

*Lights cigarette with a sulfur belch*
As my first act as a servant of darkness, I think I’ll just nuke places that annoy me… like the north pole…

fucking Santa clause, Karmashock.

[JADezimar]

lol

[Karmashock]

http://www01.vaio.ne.jp/tomosang/i/jpeg3/rock1/nikki.jpg

[shutupandshave]

Fact is, the Americans are generally viewed as a good thing in Iraq.
Which I still have trouble completely believing because there are just so many factors, the most obvious being that people that don't like the US are unlikely to find out about these polls (so cant be polled) or wont be "in" when the survey taker knocks on the door.

I DO think that Iraq will be better off eventually, but that doesn't mean it was the right thing to do.
I think that planet earth will be better off, in the LONG run if we all kill ourselves, however I dont wish for that to happen.

[Karmashock]

Which I still have trouble completely believing
Of course you do, we're the fascistic great Satan! :D

The truth is that we bombed ourselves in 9/11... because we're kind of masochistic...

See, here is bush in his pure elemental state burning the buildings down with his own demonic hatred!
http://www.antichristconspiracy.com/Devil%20In%20Smoke%20of%20WTC.jpg

RAWR!

I mean, you know 'why' Americans are fat right?... we eat baby fetuses!


seriously, you don't know how good they are until you've tried them...


I think that planet earth will be better off, in the LONG run if we all kill ourselves, however I dont wish for that to happen.
America agrees with you, humanity is weak and should be purged from the earth... the army of hell will consume your pathetic souls.


Babies are tasty, Karmashock.

[shutupandshave]

Karma, do you think those kind of comments are in ANY way constructive. Any time I try and accept that you may well have the ability to reason, you answer my questions with this kind of reply. GG.

If you think that there ISN'T a chance the polls (which are not just taken by the U.S. but by the UK and other sources) may NOT have chance to be biased, then you're as naive as you are ignorant and self-centred.

You create Anti-American sentiment when there really isn't any - then complain because it's there.

Don't get confused between Anti-Karma, and Anti-America.

[JADezimar]

Well lets look at it this way Saus. Most the liberators and fighters of Iraq. Are not even population based in the large Iraqi cities. Some of them are from the smaller camps, and tribes that still exist in Iraq today, Cuase they never wanted to become cant remember the word so ill say city folk :p They are the true supporters of Sadaam and they number a very few of Iraqi ppl. The fact of the matter is the largest amounts of Fighters and insurgents in Iraq are funded by other middle east nations, armed by other middle east nations and are harbored accross the border, Thats why there so difficult to find is they come over for some fights and to higher some poor kid off the streets to fight and duke it out and then retreat right back over the border.

The fact that the terrorists group al quida is Doing things in Iraq rather than making plans against the states is another blatant truth. Becuase Of the beheadings with ppl like zarquiwi in it. The al quiada are probalby one of those groups coming over the borders. That brings up another point that alot of the casualties of Iraqi citizens that were at the hands of the united states were probably payed off by the enemy terrorists to fight against the current government and the states. But thats why there seen as terrorists There doing more bombings tahn anything and they In no way shape or form Really show the true opinoins and views of the iraq's and there also not the Iraqi government.

[shutupandshave]

Actually, in support of the American invasion... it could be argued that actually the majority of the terrorists are not Iraqi's at all, but various terrorist groups that have migrated to Iraq as an easy place to attack US forces (which would also suggest that they're not specifically trying to kill civilians - but just Americans in general)...

[JADezimar]

Ya Thats what my wifes Recruiter says that just got out of Iraq not long ago. And yes her branch has had some bastard recruiters but this particuliar guy didnt do so well recruiting he was as honest as could be:P Was its mostly not even true Iraqi based population fighting its, terrorists organizations, Tribal leaders that never joined up with the civilization of Iraq that want the power for themselves. etc etc.

[shutupandshave]

Probably very true - which perhaps explained why Saddam had to keep such a tight rein on things...

We're probably fighting the same people that he was fighting. Killing 10's of thousands of the same people that he was killing, for exactly the same reason - they want power. I have no idea whether or not that's true, but that would be a horrible irony.

[JADezimar]

Well ... Its a reverse the ppl were fighting were Sadaams allies that kept him in power in most cases. Occasionally a tribal cheif or tribe would speak out against sadaam and he would go exectute them. But most the tribal cheifs etc are actually sadaams allies. That kept him in power. and got a share of the wealth.

Alot of the ppl coming over the borders etc that are helping out. Is just to eliminate Us's presence. Not that the Iraqi ppl dont want us there but other terrorists organizations and governments dont want us there. Its like mvb said at one point the middle east populace aint necessarily the evil... But I do beleive in general the governments and leaders are o0. this is do to them being in power, and usually in power do to unscrupulous actions.

[shutupandshave]

Maybe, but perhaps some of the people we're also fighting are people that want power and never liked Saddam, just wanted to take his place. Wanted to be a dictator like he is.

[JADezimar]

Ya most likely........ But if thats the case were still helping o0 the commen average citizen of Iraq

[Karmashock]

Don't get confused between Anti-Karma, and Anti-America.

You're such a FLAMING liar... You called us fascists you douche... :rofl:


*gives Suas huggles and a kitten*

I love you... never change, Karmashock.

[shutupandshave]

Jad, there's a good chance we are - but by helping these people, we're also forcing them to do things, and humiliating them.

Karma - only in response to you calling me a lefty, tree-hugging, sack of piss, or something. You took great offense to me stereo-typing you, and your country by a few of your views, however it seems part of the point still escapes you.

Dont get confused between me calling the US things, and suggesting what the US might become if the right wing sentiments get worse.

[Karmashock]

you don't even understand them in the first place, so how would you know? :lol:

[shutupandshave]

Wasn't it you that said that it is only someone that has no points that resorts to snide quips?

[MVB]

I think it's incredibly ignorant to suggest that the right wing of the US could EVER become in any way fascist, and is especially ignorant a) of the American mindset, among ALL Americans, and b) the history of past fascist states.

It's a bluntly moronic proposal to make, and I don't know why Karmashock is even wasting time on it.

[Karmashock]

I'm watching movies while I do this... so it's not like I have anything else to :P

[shutupandshave]

MVB, that precisely the point. Read what Karma wrote before I made those statements... and use better judgement than to listen to Karma's intepretation of facts, which we all know is completely biased.

[Karmashock]

Oh course we ALLL know it... who would EVER disagree with the great and powerful Suas?... you're such fucking joke... keep it up... this movie is slow...

[shutupandshave]

Prove me wrong instead of just insulting me.
Go grab some instances where I called the entire of the US fascists. Dont forget the links.

[JADezimar]

Well saus calling republicans fascists was the majority of the us thats pretty damn close o0

[shutupandshave]

Where did I do that JAD - link please?

[Karmashock]

The rest of the known universe think the Republicans are fascists and that the US is about to descend into a bout of genocide against Muslims...

Sorry, the US "HAS" descended into a bout of ....

just one of many instances...

[shutupandshave]

Dont forget the links.

I asked for that because I didn't want to be taken out of context. You conveniantly forgot to provide the link.

I stated a few posts ago that the only example of me generalising the fascist term was in return for democratic views being called "lefty". So yes - when JAD said that (and it was not the first time these things have been said) I responded (as I had already claimed I did) by saying that all Republicans were fascists.

Incidently, there are NO more examples of me calling the entire of the US fascists (not that this was one).

I called Ummon a fascist.
I also said that if ALL political views seems left-wing - then you're a fascist.

The issue is - you said I called the entire of the US fascists NUMEROUS times.
I didn't.
Whatever you DO say about me - make sure it's the truth, and make sure it's not something I've not already admitted to saying before.

I am not going to get bogged down in the semantics of that one occasion, because in my mind I explained it, and perhaps in your mind - my explanation is not sufficient. Lets instead concentrate on the NUMEROUS examples you spoke of which is something that can be proven...instead of debated.

[MVB]

Suas, let me ask you this -- do you believe that the right wing in the United States is in some way fascist, or that in any way realistically could become fascist?

If you say no, then this is moot; if you say yes, then this is moot; either way, by making said statement clear right now, you can shut Karma and all this stupid nitpicking up.

[shutupandshave]

I believe that the US has developed SOME elements of mild fascism, and there is a chance it could get worse. Whether or not the US will ever become a fascist state is something I really cannot answer, but I think it unlikely (although not impossible).

My arguments would be this (and bear in mind that these are not necessarily all my opinions - but these are opinions of many people over the world - and do not represent the whole world).

First let me define fascist as I see it (or more accurately - as dictionary.com see's it).

"A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism. "
Now Bush lost the first election (apparently), and still got into power. Dictator? He then used terror tactics (supporession of the opposition - in this case Kerry) regarding bin laden, to get re-elected into government. The US feels threatened, and so it voted for the most aggressive leader. Now I've seen many (American) news reports that had Democrat officials stating that Bush was using terror to gain the public vote. Whether or not you disagree is not the issue here - it is acknowledgment that people believe this which is important.
Now that has already satisfied one of the criteria for fascism. I dont think the US will ever have a dictator in the true sense of the word - however if there was ever a dictator leader of the US it would be someone that somehow fooled the US people into believing that they wanted him to be there. I am not suggesting that Bush did this - I am merely stating that I dont think the US people would stand for a dictator in the traditional sense of the word.
Stringent Socio-economic rules. It could be argued that the US has these - it could be argued that it doesn't.
Belligerant nationalism and rascism. I think the pre-emptive attack on a country that it felt threatened by is evidence of the belligerant nationalism. There is certainly a lot of rascism in the US, but the majority of it I have seen is from kids, and not adults. Just ask yourselves how many times you've seen kids spouting the phrases "sand-niggers" or suggesting that all Muslims are terrorists. The important question is whether these children will grow out of this mentality in a society that is openly waging war on certain parts of a religion (the bad terrorist part), or whether this is going to be the attitude of American adults in 20 years time.

So anyway - do I think the US is fascist. No.
Do I think it displays fascists tendancies. Yes. But I am not for one minute stating that it is to the same degree as Nazi Germany did. Remember, there are many different attributes to fascism.
Do I think the US president is going to abolish congress and declare itself the sole ruler. No.

Now, as a parting quote from dictionary.com "Word History: It is fitting that the name of an authoritarian political movement like Fascism, founded in 1919 by Benito Mussolini, should come from the name of a symbol of authority. The Italian name of the movement, fascismo, is derived from fascio, “bundle, (political) group,” but also refers to the movement's emblem, the fasces, a bundle of rods bound around a projecting axe-head that was carried before an ancient Roman magistrate by an attendant as a symbol of authority and power. The name of Mussolini's group of revolutionaries was soon used for similar nationalistic movements in other countries that sought to gain power through violence and ruthlessness, such as National Socialism." (emphasis added by me)

Edit: let me just make clear. That I do not believe and am not trying to suggest the US to be in anyway more or even close to equal, as fascist as a country like Iraq. The reason that the US is under scrutiny here - is because it's a reasonable country with mostly reasonable people in it that is adopting SOME (not all) similar tactics of the regime's it is trying to overthrough.

[Ummon]

Mussolini never won an election: he was appointed Prime Minister after the fascists marched on Rome. Hardly comparable to a dubious recount in Florida.

Mussolini could have theoretically stayed in power forever, not so Bush, who is limited to 2 mandates.

Bush is not a racist, he actually believes in exporting democracy to Islam. A racist would believe in extermination, segregation, etc.

The fact is, Mussolini and Hitler attacked democratic countries to conquer them, the U.S. are just replacing a dictator with a democracy.

What few know, Mussolini in his early life was a socialist. All the totalitarian governements of the 20th century happen to originate from the atheist left, not the christian right. Including Nazism (National Socialist Party).

There are countless other differences, which lead me to say, the paragon is incorrect.

All the modifications the Republicans have implemented in the US legislation are reversible. US is a republic, and an healthy one, and there is no doubt that islamic extremists are nazists with a religious mask. I only say islamic extremists, even is I believe that overall islam is a nazist philosophy.

[shutupandshave]

Ummon
I never said Bush was rascist.

I deliberately stated that I don't think in anyway that the US displays the degree of fascism that Hitler (and also now I will also mention Mussolini) did.

Yes Mussolini and Hitler attacked democratic countries to conquer them - but as I said - I am not saying there is a comparison between them. Please dont infer that I think there is.

Bush could "theoretically" stay in power forever - the constitution could be changed. In fact - he has more chance of staying in power forever than Mussolini who we already know didn't.

There is nothing incorrect about what I said - as I am only stating that these are the views of some people and if at any point I imply otherwise, I apologise. I never meant to.

[JADezimar]

No he doesnt. Have that power. It has to be ratified by both houses. Ok'ed buy the supreme court. ok'ed by the president. Then theyll have to put down all the american citizens that will arm themselves to the teeth to blow the assholes away that attempted this.

Allthough I fear that thats part of all the gun laws rulz. Is to keep that power from the citizinry. In a book I read bits and peices about 1 world governments etc. Pretty scarry o0. Id hate to put the title here But here it goes. So far of what I read it wasnt racists but I still need to buy it or borrow it from my freind to c what its all truly about. The International Jew Worls Foremost Problem ,Henrey Ford.

I dont condone racism and I cant tell you if that book has alot of it in it or not. But so far I hadnt read any racismo0. Either ford was crazy or I am scared where things are headed :P

[shutupandshave]

JAD, there is a difference between what is LIKELY to happen, and what is theoretically possible.

I dont think it is likely Bush would/could do this - in fact I think the chances are very small however if something very drastic happened it may be that the people decide Bush should be in power indefinitely (say China attacks or something) because he's such a good war president.
See what I mean?

[JADezimar]

yes o0 I c what ya mean theoretically.

[Ummon]

I think that a country either is fascist, or it isn't. I find it difficult to calculate one country's "degree of fascism". Do americans elect their governement? Yes. The whole Florida recount thing doesn't change the US into a dictatorship, and neither moves it one step forward on the way to fascism. Infact, it's been a one-time incident, which has not been repeated this time.

The whole idea of judging a preemptive strike another step towards fascism, is IMHO, a personal view of the facts. Others might call it a blunder, a good idea, a rash decision, etc.

It's not the first time that a democracy/republic conducts a preemptive strike. Romans used to do that all the time, when they had a strong republican constitution and were far away from evolving into an empire. Ancient Athens did that too. Many "issues" of the French Republic performed preemptive strikes. Israel has performed preemptive strikes in recent times.

I'll correct my "theoretical" statement, of course, Mussolini had 100% chances to stay in power as long as he lived, not so Bush.

[Karmashock]

If you say no, then this is moot; if you say yes, then this is moot; either way, by making said statement clear right now, you can shut Karma and all this stupid nitpicking up.
There is nothing nit picky about that quote.

Suas is entirely too lose with a very powerful term. He either sees evil oppression everywhere, or fascism means something so mild and benign that no one should get excited about it.


Either way... it's a lot of noise over nothing.

[shutupandshave]

uh - 100% chance of staying in power while he lived....

History proves that did not happen. He was not in power for the entire of his life (since he gained it), so 100% is not accurate.

Ummon, a country is not non-fascist one day, and then completely fascist the next so there HAVE to be degrees of fascism.

[Ummon]

Meaning that if he had lost power, he would have been killed immediately or shortly after. That's what happened, really. If he had kept his power, he would have lost it because of old age.

And yes, one country becomes totalitarian in a second, the process to do so being often a coup d'etat, revolution, etc. To build a dictatorship one has to use violence and the force of arms.

I cannot seem to remember any gradual evolution from democracy to totalitarianism in the last 100 years. Napoleon comes to mind, before that, but he used an amount of violence too, and democracy wasn't really "well established" in post-revolutionary France.

[MVB]

I believe he is stating in the case of having established power, would not relinquish it while alive. Your argument is attempting to prove Ummon wrong regarding the interpretation of words, rather than the intention of his statement, which was quite clear -- you are an intelligent person suas, and should be aware of this.

As far as other things go, if you know something of the history of fascist states, and how they have arisen, the United States has few if ANY parallels to the arise of fascist states in the past. This is not to say that one day in the future such a thing wouldn't happen, but it IS to say that there is NO evidence in even the most extreme of the Republican party to point at the seeds of fascism, historically or otherwise, in the current United States. Therefore, if fascism did happen one day, it would not be as an evolution of the current US Right Wing.

[Karmashock]

As to this talk of fascism...

Fascism is a label...

Labels are applied to the appropriate element because that element is described by that label.



My problem with what you are doing is that you are applying the label because that is the label you want to use. It is you labeling the item as opposed to the nature of the item labeling itself. You like it because it is a negative and inflammatory label that has great power. You are NOT applying the label because the US is fascistic though. A brief summary of US politics will not get any sensible person to scream “fascism”.


If I really wanted to, I could call ANY GOVERNMENT ON EARTH a 'bit' fascistic. Just like I could call a jar of raspberry jam "insect shit"... oh, their is likely very little insect excrement in a jar of jam... but flies do tend to get on just about everything and there will be some... I could also write on a stone "water"... because as we all know there are trace amounts of moisture in most stones.
-----------------------------
What I would like from you to do is label the US for what it is... not what it has molecular traces of.

Do the religious people push their nonsense?… yeah… it would be as honest to call that ‘theocratic’ as ‘fascistic’. However, you prefer fascistic, as it’s more inflammatory.



This is why I consider that term when used to describe US politics to be dishonest.

Love and peace, Karmashock.

[shutupandshave]

but it IS to say that there is NO evidence in even the most extreme of the Republican party to point at the seeds of fascism,
What are the seeds of fascism MVB. I really dont know what they are in terms of cause and effect.

Karma, you completely have no idea what I was talking about... perhaps it's because you think that the US salary is the same as the US GDP. Or perhaps it's because you think that the UK is a republic... it could - alternatively be something equally stupid that you believe - will be proved wrong about, and will never apologise for all the insults that followed.

[JADezimar]

Saus you should look up the actual definition of republic, Its actually what the usa's democracy is it is a republic. not democracy. If you c what the definition is maybe it fits the UK too o0. From what one of my teachers xplained to me He said the states is a republic I think he said the uK was too but Id be lying if I said I remember the ladder for certain.

[shutupandshave]

The UK is not a republic. It is a constitutional monarchy. You will do yourself a favour if you don't say it is anything else.

[JADezimar]

-_- ill do myself a favour. What you gonna do kick my ass lol.

[shutupandshave]

lol no - just bombard you with facts until you see you're wrong, or you look completely unreasonable and stupid.

Even the CIA website says that the UK is a constitutional monarchy.

[JADezimar]

Hey if you read my posts carefully ... I didnt say the uk was :p o0 theres a simple fact for you.

Simple question though what roll does your monarch have in england. What does the position consists of doing and types of powers it has ?

[Karmashock]

Karma, you completely have no idea what I was talking about
lol... from now on we should just call things by what they have a microscopic trace of... you know... just some tangential totally ignorable trait...

From now on... lets call fish mercury... because all fish have mercury in them... or maybe we should call water poison... because there's a little arsenic in water naturally and that's a poison...


Perhaps you do know what you're talking about... But that would also make you a liar. To have a clue you would have to know damn well that the US isn’t in anyway fascistic... you just use it as an argumentative tool.

So choose... are you clueless or a liar? There are but two options here.


I’d rather be clueless then a liar, but that’s just me.

Karmashock.

[JADezimar]

lol

[shutupandshave]

Karma, I have proven you to both deliberately mislead, and make huge whopping errors in the past.

I dont think it is "I" that is either a liar or clueless.

I would call comments like "the US does not measure average salary as a median" which was replied with - by a link to some official stats of the us average salary (As a median) as fine evidence of the fact you are clueless - especially as you are an ECON major!!!

You lied when you said there were NUMEROUS examples of me calling America fascist...then could only produce ONE piece of evidence...which I had already accounted for in a previous post. Good job. Liar.

[Karmashock]

I knew the US had a median value... I was just saying that the CIA figures were not median.

You clearly do think that the US is fascistic... everyone has heard you defend that claim on several occasions.

Now you're just pathetic...

Love, Karmashock.

[shutupandshave]

Your exact quote Karma...
The US doesn't take the median of individual income. It's not a statistic we compile...
Which I am assuming you now accept it does?

Dont tell me what I do and do not think. In that post I made - I SPECIFICALLY pointed out that these are not necessarily my views. So I would like to see where I have defended that claim on SEVERAL occasions (dont forget the links).

[Karmashock]

I was in error... I looked at the US census, which is the primary statistical resource in the US for population statistics... I'm still pretty sure that that doesn't look at individuals so much as families... however, I neglected to see what other statistical resources were available.

On reflection, that was vastly over generalized statement that was obviously wrong. In the future, I’ll do a better job of exhausting resources while being sure to be as specific as possible.

[shutupandshave]

No problem.