the asian quake

[CELTIC_2X]

i cant beleave this hasnt been brought up yet, its a horrible thing that has happend and my deepst sympathes to the ppl's familys.

i herd something today something a brit solider said, he just got back from iraq, he said he would rather be out there doing some real good instead of fighting a money wasting war.

i hate that US and britian i guess to has spent billions on a war and has done fuck all to help the many ppl that need it,

the thing is, if mister bush or blair 4 that matter ever say that they r trying to help ppl again, i will fucking shoot them myself, arogant and greedy cunts the both of them,

theres no money in it so they dont bother, thats all there is to it.

[JADezimar]

I dare you to go shoot them.

[Karmashock]

i cant beleave this hasnt been brought up yet, its a horrible thing that has happend and my deepst sympathes to the ppl's familys.
Of course... it's a horrible disaster... just horrific...

i herd something today something a brit solider said, he just got back from iraq, he said he would rather be out there doing some real good instead of fighting a money wasting war.
First, fuck you.
Second, most polls of the soldiers show high moral and a strong belief in the good they are doing.

i hate that US and britian i guess to has spent billions on a war and has done fuck all to help the many ppl that need it,
What are you even talking about?... seriously, just kill yourself. How completely insulting can you get?

Little fuckers like you have us coming and going. If go in and try to make the world a better place by democratizing the Middle East you say we should just stay home and mind our own business... Never mind that that is the ONLY thing that will ever improve their sad lives. But then if we don't dedicate all our resources to helping people that SHOULD HAVE BEEN PREPARED IN THE FIRST PLACE! Then we're obviously greedy bastards.

Get a clue. Seriously, do you have any idea how insulting this bullshit is?... how offensive? To blame "us" for an earthquake? Wow, you're just such a total and complete brain washed tool aren’t you?

the thing is, if mister bush or blair 4 that matter ever say that they r trying to help ppl again, i will fucking shoot them myself, arogant and greedy cunts the both of them
Greedy? The US is losing LOTS of money over this and so is Britain... We’ll likely NEVER make that money back. Furthermore the Republicans AND PM Blair have paid a great deal in political capital to keep it there. Either of them would have been greedier to do what the FUCKING FRENCH DID! Which was CHEAT the UN ‘oil for food’ (under them it was more like oil for weapons) program to get more of saddam's oil. That's what greedy people do you deranged fuck nut. Just wow...

theres no money in it so they dont bother, thats all there is to it.

Blaming the US/UK for what is basically a random act of nature is pathetic.

Bringing up Iraq in all this is irrational and demonstrative of a programmed shallow mind.

Saying we did one thing or another because of greed is stupid. Iraq is costing us, and we’ve pledged as much money as we can spare to the disaster. We have a very tight budget or haven’t you been paying attention!

Seriously, don't speak unless spoken too... that or grovel on your fucking knees for forgiveness... this is so unbelievably fucking pathetic I don't know where to begin. Even the Americans that hate bush would have to agree…

Really… kill yourself.

[CELTIC_2X]

ur a fucktard. there is no way u can support that war or u should fucking kill urself.

its funny mind just after posting that i turned on the news and saw that the US had doubled there aid bid, the first being shitty and the reason 4 my first coment.

and soliders may beleave that, but that quote i used didnt, fuck u right back i fully support the troops who r there, but the war is simply wrong.

u little fuck is this how ppl realy think? u dont make sense if the US and UK did not piss away thoses billions then they wouldnt hav such a tight bugget would they?

i am not blameing 'us' 4 the dam earthquake u stuipd fucker, i dont give a fuck if i insult u, and dont act like i am a fucktard ether just to make ur arguement look better, there is just no way any 1 can justify such a war.

they arnt helping anyone there, the fucking war should never hav happend, i would rather see our lads over there in force doing real good, theres still fucking bodys on the beach 4 fuck sake, instead of policeing fucking iraq,

it would make perfect sense to bring up iraq and the qauke togeather u fucktard, the biggest events in the world right now, they clearly efect each other, like i hav said that army resoures and money r being used in iraq.

u need to fucking grow up pal, if u r honestly saying that u would rather hav ur US troops in iraq, then helping in asia, then ur the one who should be fucking shot.

[CELTIC_2X]

i hav to also add that reading back wat i said it was a little weak, i had been watching the news all day and i was just upset and felt helples,

plus i was drunk when i wrote that, i just hate to see ppl suffering.

[P$Ü(||0]

well i know the usa spent 15 million DOLLARS to help the people there, but i think a great state as the usa is could spend much more! even we dumbass germans gave 20 million EURO, and this is 9 million dollars more!

[Blacksand]

No skin off my nose. Natural disaster is a part of life, hence the 'natural' moniker.

There are much more important issues that need to be adressed in America before we can proclaim ourselves the world's police force. And even that worldview upsets me to a horrible degree.

Look at our border policy. It's a fucking joke. Arizona spent over five million putting WATER stations in the middle of the desert last year to make sure illegal immigrants didn't die. People that should not have been there in the first place. Even more illegals come over the border to give birth, sign up for welfare and then dissapear. There are streets with nothing but mailboxes where illegals come every month to pick up welfare checks then spirit back across the border. Even more is the fact that we've got criminal immigrants because INS decided it wasn't cost effective to screen for convicted felons. Then they steal jobs, working illegally and under the table. And this is just the Mexico border.

School system? Another joke. Trying to teach students who don't give a fuck, juggle teachers sleeping with the students, teachers who just don't care, and a school board system that's more intrested in keeping the appearance of order rather than actually helping the students who want an education while surviving the same system that is so morally bankrupt it's absurd. As it is, schools are looking more and more like the prisons 40% of the students will eventually end up in.

Prison system? Yeah, that works. We're punishing millions of drug users and packing them right next to the REAL criminals. Brilliance. Reform the drug laws, provide drug education. Get rid of mandatory sentancing, it does nothing but add to a problem that needs to be solved. Streamline and speed up death penalty proceedings. Spending 10-15 years on death row waiting to die is absurd, the current appeals process is making that happen. Give it up, they were found guilty by the system and if we put an innocent man to death, well .. you break a few eggs making a cake.
Put every man in a solitary cell, keep everyone seperate. Let them out to exercise singly, bring the food TO them. Take away all the perks they get. Cable? Internet? Phone? Gone. Sound harsh? It's PRISON. They gave up their right be treated as humans the moment they committed the crime.

There are too many problems to be dealt with. Call it isolationism, call it what you will. Leadership by example is the accepted tome, and what example are we setting to the world? A morally bankrupt nation with no sense of community or civic action. When's the last time you met someone who cared about their neighborhood? Until the myriad issues here are solved, close the fucking book. We can't take care of ourselves, why should we be bothered to try and take care of the rest of the world? Fuck the world, they can pick up the peices, we shouldn't be sweeping up our neighbor's trash when there are roaches in our living room.

[CELTIC_2X]

but u should help these ppl, the whole world should, i hope u dont meen u shouldnt.

[Blacksand]

Why exactly should I help these people?

I am not a good samaritan. I don't give to charity. I don't pity people who come into hard times. I've been through more than enough of my own and I pulled myself up by my bootstraps. People died? Hey. Terrible. Now get on with your life.

The people that ARE going over there to give aid get my respect, but not my approval. Helping these people is a well and noble goal, but it's not one I'm intrested in .. and I don't think we have any buisness over there helping them when our own country resembles a crack den. You want a noble goal? Building a wall with sniper towers and mines along the Mexican border is a noble goal. Reducing the crime rate is a noble goal. Purging corruption from local and federal government is a noble goal.

Providing aid that will only be rediverted to line someone's pockets and never see the people it's intended to help is not a noble goal. That's foolishness, and I am anything but a fool.

[JADezimar]

but u should help these ppl, the whole world should, i hope u dont meen u shouldnt. the thing is, if mister bush or blair 4 that matter ever say that they r trying to help ppl again, i will fucking shoot them myself, arogant and greedy cunts the both of them
Who the fuck helps us when a hurricane hits florida?

You cant compare wars and natural disasters.

Again I dare you too. And everyone can see how upset without bush and Blair You would be surprised. 90% of the united States area dont vote for Him for no reason.

[CELTIC_2X]

black has a decent human being u surely cant stand to c those ppl die, u talk in a almost evil way,

the USA as it loves to remind the rest of the world is the most pwerfull and wealthy contry in the world, u dont need aid, these poor cunts do,

wat isnt ur problem is iraq black, but the US is there, i cant beleave i am hearing this,

would u not want help if ur house and family were smashed to piaces?

ur right its not our problem, but if u dont care then there is something very wrong with u.

[Karmashock]

ur a fucktard. there is no way u can support that war
It's easy to support it.

its funny mind just after posting that i turned on the news and saw that the US had doubled there aid bid, the first being shitty and the reason 4 my first coment.
We were never going to stiff them. We have lots of different departments and systems that are funded seperately to send aid. This bullshit is honestly like a kid opening one christmas PRESENT and then bitching that it's cheap.

Again, go fuck yourself.

and soliders may beleave that, but that quote i used didnt, fuck u right back i fully support the troops who r there, but the war is simply wrong.
Well, a majority of the troops support the war. So what does that do to you?

Are you saying that you hope they don't die but that they fail in doing what they're risking their lives to do?

u little fuck is this how ppl realy think? u dont make sense if the US and UK did not piss away thoses billions then they wouldnt hav such a tight bugget would they?
Pathetic... So now we must keep a reserve of cash to be the world's insurance policy AND police force?

If you want us to do that, then people should seriously just start sending us money... This is money we worked for going into everything... this isn't free... Do you give your 400 dollar jacket to the first homeless guy you pass? How long would it take for your wallet to run out if you walked to the bad neighborhood and started passing out cash? Get fucking real.

i am not blameing 'us' 4 the dam earthquake u stuipd fucker, i dont give a fuck if i insult u, and dont act like i am a fucktard ether just to make ur arguement look better, there is just no way any 1 can justify such a war.
No, you're blaming us for not kissing it and making the whole world better...

We're not gods, we're men. Nothing more or less. As to you insulting people because you're too thoughtless to think your comments through... duh. You're a disgrace.

they arnt helping anyone there, the fucking war should never hav happend, i would rather see our lads over there in force doing real good, theres still fucking bodys on the beach 4 fuck sake, instead of policeing fucking iraq,
Then abandon your longest standing ally... just fucking walk away from us... we'll keep on trying to make the world a better place in our own way. If you're no real friend to the US, then just go... We're fucking tired of soft friends that only smile when they either profit by it or there is nothing expected of them... those people are of no value to us.

it would make perfect sense to bring up iraq and the qauke togeather u fucktard, the biggest events in the world right now, they clearly efect each other, like i hav said that army resoures and money r being used in iraq.
WE AREN"T RESPONSIBLE FOR KEEPING MONEY LYING AROUND FOR THIS BULLSHIT! WAKE THE FUCK UP!

u need to fucking grow up pal, if u r honestly saying that u would rather hav ur US troops in iraq, then helping in asia, then ur the one who should be fucking shot.
We had to go to Iraq, we didn't know they would need help, and we can't take them out to help them now.

So what is your fucking point? Do we have to predict the future now?

i hav to also add that reading back wat i said it was a little weak, i had been watching the news all day and i was just upset and felt helples,

plus i was drunk when i wrote that, i just hate to see ppl suffering.

You honestly should have just deleted your whole drunken embarressing rant.
===========================================

but u should help these ppl, the whole world should, i hope u dont meen u shouldnt.
It's not that we don't want to help. It's that we can't.

And it isn't our responsibility. We'll give what we can... we're already in debt.

[CELTIC_2X]

ur right its not ur resposiblty, but u tard u fail to see that u claim to be saving ppl in iraq, in turn u dont hav enough money to help the realy needy ppl,

u seem to take most of wat i say wrong, i dont hope the tropps fail, i would love to see a free and safe iraq now that its is done, but i am saying it shouldnt hav started in the first place.

when did i say ur the police force? i didnt say that i dont expect anything from the US accept a decent amount of aid and help oferd, i dont no were u get half of wat ur saying from,

ur little cunt, do u not think u should giv ur money away? u r pissing it away in the war jackass, u can spend it on nice new bombs but not food 4 the hungry?

and i cant talk 4 britian of coures i dont meen that we abonden u, that was a smiply joke of a coment u made, i meen they would be more usefull helping over there, i dont meen that they leave iraq, i meen they shouldnt hav been there in the first place.

u should fucking kiss it better, we all should but we cant b/c we r fighting a war that should never hav happend,

its done now tho and all this is a waste of time, and alot more ppl are gonna die but that dosent seem to matter 2 u lot. u all seem happy enough to look the other way.

[Blacksand]

40%. What does that number mean to you? Nearly half? Doesn't sound like much, does it?

Now figure this. 40% of ALL aid money given this year was in US dollars. Out of everyone who gave money to aid a worthy cause, the US gave more than anyone else. Nearly half of all the aid came from one place. Us.

Now, factor in the other intangibles we're sending. The US government has tasked a carrier to provide relief. I.E. - Medical treatment, food, and water. A carrier produces over 100,000 GALLONS of fresh water each day. Teams of doctors, and skilled construction personell to help rebuild. Things that can't be measured in money.

And all of this is taking away from the war effort, and even more telling is the fact that I will probably be out to sea a number of extra months because the carrier tasked to provide relief efforts was the battle group scheduled to relieve this one.

Add to that not only the government aid money, but private donations and grants that will undoubtedly be added.

But I don't care one iota. I'm frank about my opinion - and personally I feel that an amount of money and resources that large should not be spent on helping these people when it could be better spent to improve conditions in our OWN country.

FFS, if anything we should be CHARGING these people for our help. Basic economics - we have the supply, they have the demand for the supply .. if they can't pay us for our effort, they shouldn't be getting it. I don't work for free, why should the world expect us as a country to do the same?

[CELTIC_2X]

i couldnt be happyer that the US is helping,

as 4 ur own dam country neededing the money dont go spending it on wars then,

this is a very good cause, iraq well u can guess wat i will say.

[Blacksand]

So by your reasoning, disaster relief is great.

Dictator relief is not?

Same basic principles, apply .. do they not? We're improving lives and providing humanitarian care.

[CELTIC_2X]

sure great stuff,

the only thing is u had to take the contry first,

and u and karma boy there hav both said u shouldnt help any 1 but urselves, but yet u both seem to suport the war?

if i remeber right that wasnt the main reason 4 the war anyway,

am i wrong? the war cost and is still costing u more than the relife would but yet u hav no objection to the use of that money?

[Blacksand]

In response to your other (now locked)thread:

A lack of sympathy makes me less than human?

No - it makes me pragmatic, at worst.
Reread my post. I never said I had no respect for the dead or their families, I simply stated that I feel they don't deserve aid, espicially on the level we're giving it.

My life is/was hard so other people don't matter?
Again. Reread my post. I never said such a thing, stop putting words in my mouth. I said the aid could be put to better use helping people in MY country, not in some backwater across the globe that I could give two shits about.

Disrespecting the dead?
They are DEAD. I doubt they are in a position to care at this point. At least you know the carrion birds won't go hungry this year. Look, the disaster had a good side after all, vultures and crows won't go extinct this year. Silver lining, chap.

Bottom line kid, don't put words in my mouth. Don't attribute words I never said to me. Don't misqoute me. You only made yourself look like a fool, and I happen to like you .. so don't make me upset.

Second Section- Yes, I'm for the war. Do I agree with the reasons we went in? No. Do I agree with our presence there? Yes. And don't forget that I am there AT THIS MOMENT. I know more about the situation that you ever could. The overwhelming opinion of the locals is that we've done wonderful things for Iraq. Are there problems still? Yes. There always will be, Iraq is a conglomeration of several old countries. There are several different factions that all hate each other. The rebels fighting now? They don't want Saddam back, they just don't want to be governed by what they see as a puppet government.

Hear this, and listen with open ears. The wheels of freedom are oiled with the blood of soldiers, of which I am one. I WILL not stand idly by and let you disrespect the work that has been done, even if there are portions of it I don't agree with. Aside from the fact that it's my job, it's a matter of pride. Those men and women that have died so Iraq has a chance at freedom are my brothers and sisters - and you are dishonoring their memory with your shallow rhetoric and pathetic arguments.

Once more, get off your psudeo-moral high horse.

[CELTIC_2X]

At least you know the carrion birds won't go hungry this year. Look, the disaster had a good side after all, vultures and crows won't go extinct this year. Silver lining, chap.

thats not disrespectful? ur a joke.

i could take apart everything u just said, but ur not worth my fucking time,

i would love all my contact with u to end right now, dont acnolage my posts in any way,

u just stay the fuck away from me pal, ur scum and everytime i read wat u say i cant take the fact that ur breathing, while others lose the privliage, u make me feel physicaly sick, and dont call me kid or say u like me thats just insulting.

[Shackled Phoenix]

and u and karma boy there hav both said u shouldnt help any 1 but urselves, but yet u both seem to suport the war?

Actually, they said, and i agree, that we need to help ourselves first. And it's a sense of responsibility, neither has said that they supported the reasons for originally going, blacksand has even stated that he did NOT support it, but now that we are there, we are supporting it. "Why?" you ask?

they arnt helping anyone there, the fucking war should never hav happend, i would rather see our lads over there in force doing real good, theres still fucking bodys on the beach 4 fuck sake, instead of policeing fucking iraq,

to answer both, because we have to. we stuck ourselves in a pile of shit, and made it bigger. Now it's our responsibility to clean it up. would you rather we pull our boys out of iraq to go clean up bodies, or stay in iraq to help prevent bodies? because damn sure if we pulled outta iraq now, there'd be alotta dead fucking people when the differing factions try to retake the country.

You call blacksand a monster, but his point of view seems simply to be that he doesn't want to cut off his own leg to help someone else walk.

People seem to treat america like the goose that layed the golden egg. We should give all this money to help others, but what'll happen when we're too broke to help ourselves? then there won't be anything left for anyone

I agree they need help, but america currently isn't in a position to give all that much. As said before, we put ourselves into a pile of shit we need to clean ourselves out of, i'd prefer we weren't spending 400 billion a year on the military, but because of our actions, we currently need to.

And finally, i again agree with Sand in that this was a "natural" disaster. It's still a tragedy, but it wasn't preventable. When someone like Saddam sits there killing people by the thousands, that's something we CAN prevent. That's someone who you should truly despise because that person believes human lives are worthless. Sand's not saying that they are, simply that, once dead, people are dead, at this point we need to be concerned with the living.

you're well intentioned celtic, but good intentions can't save the world.

Edit: In response to JAD's statements in the other thread

I dont think you understand, If you go to any other nation. They do put there own countryman firsts. They do know where there sympathies should lye. It severely ticks me off you care more about some people in India more than you would some of your own countryman.

actually my friend just got back from england, her exact words after i told her about my feeling on the american newscasts "It was the exact opposite over there. For a while they understated the british loss and concentrated on the troubles of the indonesians"

And i ask again, why should I care more about some stranger i've never met in conneticut than some stranger i've never met in indonesia? for all i know that guy from conneticut was some drug addict who raped a girl, then conned his loving family into flying him there to escape the god damn law.

They're strangers to me, they are both equal, they should be treated as such.

I find that disgusting. I am preaching patriotisms and you dog it. Talking about some foreing country. If you think India is so great and America sucks so much ass move there? Or stfu. Think about it, why do you live here? If its so god damn horrible, I mean If we alwayz thought about the others before our own country I guess we could still be paying taxes to England and be poor idiots. I guess thats your ideal of the perfect world. Cuase you eat up all the mindless bullshit everyone wants to tell you. About how were selfless and other nations are not pfft. Grow up and learn to think for yourself and not use the ideas of others. So before you want to talk to me like you just did think, atleast I was being respectable. Piss off or keep your comments intelligent.

no you're preaching that american's are better and more important than some people in indonesia. Patriotism is a love of your country, not the arrogance to think it's the greatest god damn thing in the world, like more and more american's seem to think they are. Then you say i think we should go and give everything to help out others? when did i say that? all i said is that we should feel just as bad about the death of an innocent from a foreign country, as we do about the death of one of our own. While i do infact want to help them, I don't believe we should do more than we can spare after helping ourselves. Respect is one thing we can always afford.

Im basically Saying exactly fucking what Sand did. I never said it was a goddamn good think you fucking moron. Dont accuse me of it.

Btw next time one of my family members die. You better come down here and hold my goddamn hand since you want to hold there hands over there.

first of all, my statements were directed to sand, in order to support him in the fact that he's allowed his beliefs. not one part of that quote was directed at you. infact my entire post wasn't directed at you.

Second of all, if i could i'd hold the hand of every god damn person who ever lost someone. But i obviously can't, just like i can't afford to send 20 fucking dollars to some charity drive for indonesia, and i feel like shit for it. But i'll get over it. I'm going to save myself first and when i'm safe, THEN i'll help everyone else and that's all i expect of any living being to ever live.

JAD you jumped in on something that wasn't directed at you, and mistook several parts of it.

[JADezimar]

Sand's not saying that they are, simply that, once dead, people are dead, at this point we need to be concerned with the living.

None of us ever said they were worthless!

[Karmashock]

ur right its not ur resposiblty
appologize.

but u tard u fail to see that u claim to be saving ppl in iraq, in turn u dont hav enough money to help the realy needy ppl,
It isn't our responsibility! You can't compare the two issues!

u seem to take most of wat i say wrong, i dont hope the tropps fail, i would love to see a free and safe iraq now that its is done, but i am saying it shouldnt hav started in the first place.
The troops want to win and winning means a free an happy Iraq.

Disagree with that all you like... It just makes me sad.

when did i say ur the police force? i didnt say that i dont expect anything from the US accept a decent amount of aid and help oferd, i dont no were u get half of wat ur saying from
The US actions in Iraq defined as police actions within the US.

As to aid, we give more then any other nation, so fuck off.

ur little cunt, do u not think u should giv ur money away? u r pissing it away in the war jackass, u can spend it on nice new bombs but not food 4 the hungry?
You're a pathetic tool... you just sit there let yourself get indoctrinated by bullshit, then come on here and think we should take your pathetic ass seriously?

Your arguments don't even make sense.

Provide evidence before you make any further claims.

and i cant talk 4 britian of coures i dont meen that we abonden u, that was a smiply joke of a coment u made, i meen they would be more usefull helping over there, i dont meen that they leave iraq, i meen they shouldnt hav been there in the first place.
Then at best you're using a horrible accident to further your political agenda.

Which is more disgusting then what you were charging us with.

You really should be ashamed of yourself... using those people.

u should fucking kiss it better, we all should but we cant b/c we r fighting a war that should never hav happend
No, it would be 'nice' for us to kiss it better. But we don't have the resources and even if we did... how many lives could we save? If we put everything behind them, the damage was done long before anyone could have gotten there.

its done now tho and all this is a waste of time, and alot more ppl are gonna die but that dosent seem to matter 2 u lot. u all seem happy enough to look the other way.
I prey that you don't go through life so blind to what others have made of you.

I don't blame you... you were an open mind and people took advantage of you. I wish you prosperity and enlightenment.

Love and peace, Karmashock.

[Shackled Phoenix]

.

None of us ever said they were worthless!

again you jump in and misread. I was going to Sand's defense and saying EXACTLY THAT. I wasn't accusing you of saying they were, i was saying that you DIDN"T think they were worthless.

BTW reread my last post, it's been edited toward you JAD

[JADezimar]

I'm growing kind of pissed at the local news stations who keep talking about the "hundreds of american tourists" lost in the disaster. i just wanna scream at the TV shouting "WTF?! like the tens of thousands of OTHER people killed don't fucking matter?"

This is your quote pheonix. To me this is saying you dont give a rats ass about the american ones. And reading into our news people as if we dont care for the others. Your raising an issue that didnt exists.

no you're preaching that american's are better and more important than some people in indonesia. Patriotism is a love of your country, not the arrogance to think it's the greatest god damn thing in the world, like more and more american's seem to think they are. Then you say i think we should go and give everything to help out others? when did i say that? all i said is that we should feel just as bad about the death of an innocent from a foreign country, as we do about the death of one of our own. While i do infact want to help them, I don't believe we should do more than we can spare after helping ourselves. Respect is one thing we can always afford.

No again ill repeat im preaching patriotisms. As if you read the beginning of the posts. You reminded me of a non patriot worred as fuck about the others and not giving a rats ass about your countrymen. Gonna get that threw your thick head yet ?

So if your thinking yet. You will c that I wasn't preaching that they werent important etc. But I think its this kinda bs that mindless people raise oh why are we thinking about our own dead people omfg. We need to think about there dead people firsts.

No THAT is, and that's exactly why most of the rest of the world fucking hates us. Why the hell is someone in conneticut more important that someone in indonesia. Newsflash, American's are no more important in this world than any other, and it's comments like yours that makes it so god damn hard for me to be proud of this damn country.

You c that. Thats your quote. That was a response to my posts.

Again thats not patriotic talk. But more importantly. Gives me the feeling you think that I find the asians unimportant or less important than us. AGain ill repeat myself.

None of us ever said they were worthless!

So are we cool? We done misunderstanding eachother yet ?

(obviously every one of my replies isnt directly to the posts above it o0)

[Shackled Phoenix]

Apparently not, my first post was because 15 minutes are devoted by news programs to talking about the american loss, with about 3 devoted to the indonesian loss. i didn't say we shouldn't care about american losses, but tell me, 120,000 people vs 300, which do you think deserves more time on the news?

No again ill repeat im preaching patriotisms. As if you read the beginning of the posts. You reminded me of a non patriot worred as fuck about the others and not giving a rats ass about your countrymen. Gonna get that threw your thick head yet ?

So if your thinking yet. You will c that I wasn't preaching that they werent important etc. But I think its this kinda bs that mindless people raise oh why are we thinking about our own dead people omfg. We need to think about there dead people firsts.

I've been thinking, i've been thinking that most news stories i've seen act like the ONLY part that really matters beyond a curiosity of "what nature can kill" is the death of americans. do we have a right to mourn our own dead? yeah. Is it right to act like our own dead are so important that noone else matters? in my mind no.

You c that. Thats your quote. That was a response to my posts.

Again thats not patriotic talk. But more importantly. Gives me the feeling you think that I find the asians unimportant or less important than us. AGain ill repeat myself

gee i wonder if it was this quote that gave me that idea

Pheonix this is the kinda mindless bullshit that americans are being raised with these days. Your sympathies dont lye where they should. They should firsts lye with your country men not the fucking strangers

"fucking strangers" is not something you call people you actually give a shit about.

when you said

None of us ever said they were worthless!

you had a quote of mine that had absolutely nothing to do with you, but was infact a totally seperate quote again, saying the same god damn thing in defense of Blacksand.

[JADezimar]

you had a quote of mine that had absolutely nothing to do with you, but was infact a totally seperate quote again, saying the same god damn thing in defense of Blacksand.

(obviously every one of my replies isnt directly to the posts above it o0)


Apparently not, my first post was because 15 minutes are devoted by news programs to talking about the american loss, with about 3 devoted to the indonesian loss. i didn't say we shouldn't care about american losses, but tell me, 120,000 people vs 300, which do you think deserves more time on the news?

Ummm so 1 life is insignificant? What makes others lives more important than others lives? Not to mention those 300 lives are family members of people here at home. These people here at home arent saying that the Asians are less important but are more interested to here about news that is delt with home. Just like all the Local news channels. Why do you think they make it? cuase the news is local.

Screw it, let's just agree to drop it, because we can argue this point forever without changing one anothers minds.

How to change someones mind when you continually mistakenly misunderstand what the person you are talking to is saying. Or is responding too ?

when you said

Never just make a claim back it up. Go to my posts where I said it then posts it here. Nonetheless youve been talking all self-rightoues for them and degrading the people here. And Talking about our 300 losts statistically. When Your preaching that statistics is wrong. Please man thats wrong in your eyes. From what Im gathering.

[CELTIC_2X]

JAD i wont bother with u, i wrote a propper uninsulting response to ur coment but bent has deleted it 4 no good reason,

now kamara, i dont want to argue this way anymore, i made a mistake in the way i first started this thread and the way i continued it, i dont hav the energy any more to play i say this so u say that, so i am gonna just try to fix wat i messed up with swearing and unthoughtfull coments, and display my arguement in the clearst way posible, plz 4give my arogance and poor self controll,

ok, this is my opinion and nothing more, i beleave that all the contrys in the world that r able to help in this disaster should, they r in no way obligated to but it is just comen human decenty that would make them want to, any 1 who disagress that the able countrys of the world should help in this disaster i hav no time 4,

i was upset at first b/c i didnt think enough was being done, i displayed this in a poor way blameing ppl and nations, wicth is pure crap, inlight of the increased aid bid from the US but from all over the world and it has become a number 1 priortiy,

i dont want to go into any depth into iraq b/c thats not the point in this, i did make a rather weak link between the 2 situations, although i beleave this was horribly distorted during this thread, mainly my fault, i do apologise, but i think it got pulled out of prespective b/c of coments of the US shouldnt and cant, but as it is there helping alot now and that arguement is nolonger nesisary,

the troop thing was also pulled out of wat i intended, i could hav stoped it but i am afraid itsa my nature to just defend wat i say with out major thought sometimes, i just would hav like to see our(UK) armed forces there, and didnt meen to imply that they should leave iraq to go there, the qoute i used as well was taken the wrong way i felt, it proberly sounded like they(he) didnt beleave in the war or w/e, just i ment it to show that they could be doing hands on work there, achiveing something, now not to set u off again i meen in the sort term, that wasnt clearly shown b4 and also caused problems,

i think that is the blulk of wat i said coverd, sorry 4 typos or missing a topic all togeather, its like 5am or w/e, i cant sleep with this on my mind, its killing me i am not being herd right, wicth like i say is my fault, i am a very angrey person by nature, tho this day of th posts i hav read i hav been realy upset, just feeling helpless on all fronts, i hav come to realise i ofend ppl by the way i speak(swearing every ofther word etc) its the way i am like, i always talk like this and i type the way i talk but i will stop as and think b4 i set my dam mouth of,

if u still feel the need to come back with "shut up u cunt" then fine, u hav no idea wat it takes to make me apologise and reconise wat i hav done wrong,

black wat u said has made me so dam upset u dont nothe afect it has had on me, i dont cry, i never do, but thinking aboot ur atitude and other ppls atitude 2wards these poor ppl has nearly made me twice, i just cant argue anymore i am drained emotionaly and physicaly.

so thats all i can say i apologise again 4 acting this way but i hope u c y.

[JADezimar]

Woah. I was truly moved......... (im usually an emotionally strong person.) Temper not included :P Not that I agree or disagree with your views but I appreciate the sensible intelligent posts. As far as swearing goes I can get pasts that. What upsets me and every other person is when it turns into insulting, flamewars and disrespect. If its one thing Ive learned on political boards etc people can be unrenlentless and can say shocking things. If you cant handle it. I mean this to help you. You would be better off not participating in them. Or find a way to not let these type of things get to you.

Appreciatingly,

JADezimar

[Tigre]

Wow, I haven't read this thread until now. All I have read is emotional upset here. You all are reacting to a situation that doesn't warrant this kind of disrespect. Not to mention disrespecting each other. Facts are that there are alot of shitty situations in the world right now...some we created, some natural.
All we can do is keep fighting for a better life and sometimes shear survival. I understand how some of you might feel but, please think a little and back yourself up with some facts. It is better to seduce someone to sway them to your opionion instead of using disrespectful language to do so. Cheers mates and don't ya'll worry, the world is not going to hell in hand basket!

[Karmashock]

This more or less says it all.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,11813903%5E7583,00.html

[CELTIC_2X]

i am but human, just as it says there.

[Morpheus]

Phoenix, I'm glad that some people living here can actually see the things the way they are, and not be blinded by all the bs being preached in US.

[Karmashock]

doesn't mean you weren't wrong... doesn't mean you shouldn't be ashamed.

You twisted a horrific event to your own petty political ends.

All I'm asking is that you take it back and not do that again... which anyone of honor would do.

[CELTIC_2X]

i hav said i was wrong i hav apologised, accept it or dont i dont realy care wat u think of me, i still dont agree with u i wont apologise 4 that, but hav nothing else to say about it.

[Karmashock]

where did you appologize?

[Shackled Phoenix]

I do take back a part of my accusation on the newcasts, i haven't been watching NBC's much, watched it the past couple days and they seem to have the right idea.
CBS, FOX and particularly UPN (of course, i'd expected no better, it IS upn...) still make my shitlist for this.

[CELTIC_2X]

r u kidding? did u read wat i said, i did nothing but apologise,

but if u just want me to say it fine i am sorry god dam try to make amends and get it thrown back at me.

[DrunkenUno]

Phoenix, I'm glad that some people living here can actually see the things the way they are, and not be blinded by all the bs being preached in US.

"The way they are?"

Please sir, do inform the rest of us. Apparently we are "blind."

[Morpheus]

Read her posts.

[DrunkenUno]

Read her posts.

I dont read broken quoted posts.

[Karmashock]

CBS, FOX and particularly UPN (of course, i'd expected no better, it IS upn...) still make my shitlist for this.
very few people have done this on any network... I have only seen it happen once...CNN did it...

[JADezimar]

Read her posts
Where was an issue covered that was ever a problem with the U.S ?



On another note. Did you know that the US has given 1 billion in aid last year ? The us contributes way more than people are let on to know. And what does it get, ungrateful attitudes.

[Karmashock]

What makes the US look stingy is that our people privately contribute most of our money, while governments of other countries are more likely to be the prime contributors. This creates a problem for PR in that its hard to get fixed numbers on the amount of aid the US gives when its by about 20 million people instead of just one government check.


No nation can point to the US as being stingy... we give more then anyone else even per capita.

[CELTIC_2X]

something like 350 million $ givin now by the us, thats just great stuff

[Karmashock]

Japan is giving 500 million... and they have half our population... so they must be much more generous people... right? If only the UK and US had dedicated their very existence to providing relief funds, more people might be alive for it. We're bad people for not having more resources on hand... and bad for not going into greater debt to provide for them.

US = evil.

If you're a liberal tool.

Most people around the world are giving what they can to help in this horrible disaster. Saying the US should have not had a war to provide for the disaster is like saying that the Swedish shouldn't have state welfare to provide for the disaster. Really, the Swedish via this logic could be said to be less generous as their spending is self indulgent, while the US is spending money on self-defense and international improvement.

But we're evil... evil evil evil.

Jackasses, Karmashock.

[CELTIC_2X]

umm i was realy happy aboot the amount donated, like i wasnt being sacrcastic, just incase u thought i was, although i am not sure ur coment was at me?

[Karmashock]

I believe you, but I also take it that you would have continued your asinine line of logic had the US only given 35 million or one tenth that amount.

What you have to understand is that the US unlike other countries can help people by providing shelters, fresh water, and security in a way that doesn't actually show up in dollars. We send some carriers and destroyers over there, a few marine detachments, and ship our surplus food (US grain and milk is produced in quantities far beyond our ability to consume it… the government actually buys great deals of it just to keep prices stable.) The result is that we can help far far more people while spending effectively very little. What are you going to do with at a thousand dollars if your whole village was destroyed? The money must be spent before it even gets to them for it to be useful. The US having many facilities and assets that are already useful in this regard can help more then most while also spending less on an official level.

Understand that the next big problem for these people is going to be infection and plague. The PRIMARY source of plague is tainted water. So just drinking purified water will greatly help them in surviving reconstruction.


My remaining problem with you is that, while you did withdraw from a line of reasoning, you did not justify my response to it. If you truly believed yourself to be in error, then you would do so. The simple fact is that you said something extremely offensive and are therefore expected to do more then simple not do it again. If people freak out at you for doing something bad, then part of your apology is to justify those reactions.

This is simple and fitting, Karmashock.

[CELTIC_2X]

but i dont agree with u, at all mainly because i think u misunderstood alot of wat i said(my fault poor presentaion)

and i wont pretend to ether, i dont think u gave me any reason to stop the way i was thinking, u actaly made me want to continue,

and dont qustion me aboot that apology that was a real apology i wasnt making it up so u would get off my back, i hav said sorry 4 wat i had said and 4 the ofense i hav caused i dont realy understand wat else u want me 2 do?

also dont read wat i just said in the wrong way i am not having a go at u or anything.

[JADezimar]

US = evil.

A Commen Teaching from all those ungrateful nations out there.

[Karmashock]

i dont think u gave me any reason to stop the way i was thinking, u actaly made me want to continue,
Then you're not sorry at all. You just know that continuing this line of reasoning will make you look like the ASS you are.

You insulted my people for nothing more then the opportunity to do so. People that strike at something with out reason but out of opportunity have a long standing hatred or dislike of that thing... in this case you clearly don't like the US.

Therefore, you used this tragedy overseas to once again attack that thing you hate. How can I not have contempt for someone that hates my people and what we stand for so much? America is NOTHING if not belief... it is all we have as a people. When we go forth to bring democracy to the world, understand that we cannot help but do so. Just as Christians five hundred years ago could not help but spread their faith. It is our creed and it is all encompassing. If you think we went for money, power, revenge... then you just don't understand America. Just as Christians went out to save souls, we go out to free people from tyranny. I am well aware and have intentionally used an unpopular figure to compare the US with in this instance. Because though we might both believe that what they did was in many cases despicable, we both can agree that they thought it was for something higher. You must at least give us this when you criticize us. To do less is to sell our intentions quite short of their true nature. In fact, if God were still widely believed by your people, you might well agree with the actions of your ancestors. Either way, it's a good thing most of your people disagree with your foolish presumptions... or the very foundation of western civilization would be great peril.

and dont qustion me aboot that apology that was a real apology i wasnt making it up so u would get off my back, i hav said sorry 4 wat i had said and 4 the ofense i hav caused i dont realy understand wat else u want me 2 do?
You peed in the drinking water and then yelled at people that thought it was rude. You have now apologized for peeing in the drinking water, but not to those you insulted when they called you on your ridiculous behavior. Simply, you need to recognize that people had a right to be upset with you and apologize for mistreating them. This is only something you should consider doing if you really are sorry though. If you're just trying to get people off of your back and couldn't give a damn who you offend, then this is unnecessary.

also dont read wat i just said in the wrong way i am not having a go at u or anything.
I just felt that your apology was half hearted and forced. Like a someone shaking hands with someone he'd rather just punch in the face. If that's the way you feel about it, then don't shake anyone's hand. Put your fists up and live and die by your words.

[CELTIC_2X]

man u got me all wrong, i dont apologise for anything i do normaly, but i realised i was talking shit, i said sorry to u and any 1 else that i offended,

u just want me to tell u that u right, well thats not gonna happen pal, half of wat u said i dont think was realivent to wat i was saying, wicth as i hav said a hunderd times allready was my fault 4 me presentaion and poor langauge so on,

and i dont make false apologise, i dont care if ur on my back man, i dont give a flying fuck wat u think of me, but that doesnt meen i shouldnt apologise 4 my mistake, wicth i hav done, if that doesnt do it 4 u then i dont care but i am done argueing aboot something that is no longer nesisary now that the US has made a large aid bid and sent in military resoures,

that beeing the main reason i was angrey in the first place,

and i am no longer insulting u so dont fucking call me a ASS, all i can do is say sorry u dont like though shit i dont care.

[Karmashock]

If you're sorry, then I'm right.

[CELTIC_2X]

how the hell did u work that 1 out?

[JADezimar]

now that the US has made a large aid bid and sent in military resoures,

that beeing the main reason i was angrey in the first place,


Pffft you act like we owed them. Just like they acted like we owed them. Meaning they wont be grateful after its all done. Theyll probalby just hate us and talk about how much more evil weve grown.

[Karmashock]

You said something offensive.
I called you on it.
You said I was wrong and stupid.
I furthered my arguement.
You realized you were wrong about the offensive thing and said sorry.
I asked you "what about what you said to me?" and you have thus far said "I stand by yelling at you for saying the offensive thing was offensive."

Savvy?

[CELTIC_2X]

ohh i c, i am sorry 4 yelling at u, i said that in the big sorry thing i wrote, i didnt meen to be so rude i am sorry 4 that. i thought that was a givin

[Karmashock]

Oh, I guess I didn't understand your post completely then. I often get confused with all the "4" instead of "for" and "u" instead of "you". I'm not messing with you here... it's seriously kind of a challenge to go through that when you write anything longer then a couple sentences.

Anyway, glad we're cool.

love and peace, Karmashock.

[CELTIC_2X]

i will will write for and you if u like i just do it do be fast,

cool.

hahahhaha i realised after when i read it back i used u hahahahahha

[Karmashock]

no worries... I just had a hard time knowing what you were talking about... did my best...

[Critta]

Just like they acted like we owed them. Meaning they wont be grateful after its all done.

That is probably the most insensitive thing I have read in a long, long time.

They are not acting like we owe them, they are acting like they have lost everything, homes, loved ones, access to clean water and sanitation. These countries are incredibly poor. They don't have millions of pounds to sort out the problems this disaster has caused.

It's a hopeless situation, and one where poeple are well within their rights to ask for help, we have no obligation to help them, however, I like many others feel morally that these people deserve our help to recover from a disaster that has already taken many lives and threatens to take many more if something isn't done.

I'd go as far as to say that those directly affected are not going to be thinking about the rest of the world at all, they will be far too busy dealing with day-to-day survival and attempting to clean up the destuction and bodies before diseases start to spread almongst the survivors.

[JADezimar]

No dude im not saying we shouldnt help them. Dont misinterpret me critta. But yes they act like we owe them.

[Karmashock]

he's just trolling... he's been owned so many times in so many debates that he just came here to make a few cheap snipes and then sink back into the shit... I would suggest ignoring him, if he weren't so much fun humiliate.

[Tank0]

i realize this is a hot topic but i want to add my views .


i am against all wars but i am realistic enough to know that both iraq and asia are investments .

middle east needs more democratic governements.

israel is trying to solve things with the new palestanian prez ones he is elected .

US and GB removed Saddam , any excuse would do . they lied get over it , they are there now and we cant let them there to die for nothing . 2000 dead soldiers is a high price to pay but without a positive outcome their deads would really be useless . a firemen , cop and a soldier know they risk their lives for something they believe in . i honoustly believe many were proud to have given their lives for the cause .

europe ashamed of its own weakness is now forcing turkey to become a true democratic country and is dangling da big bucks . expanding eu borders will make iraq a neighbour of ours .

tsunami :

the old druids and celts where gentile people and hospitable , you where welcome to share anything the tribe had but after three days you had t0 move on . you can only help others if you can help yourself .
Me and my wife are planning to donate to the charity from the moment i get a new job , sounds hard but my kid needs diapers first and then well give 50€ the 16th .

maybe the us and europe itself needs help too but giving to them is helping yourselves . the better they have it overthere the fewer people try to find their luck overhere . if more people get an education more things will be developed or invented , maybe the cure for aids will be found my an idonesian orphan that gets charity now ? the more money they have the more they can come spend overhere . etc........

it was an horrific disaster , killing more people then both nukes during wwII but remember Darfour ? congo ? . the 3 billion dollars they have promised is enough to cover the 975 million demand for immediate relieve and will help them for the second fase to . i know the EU have committed 2 billion euro 's for the next 5 years for the rebuilding fase . if i didnt know better i would say europe is trying to pick up the tab out of guild for refusing help now the US needs it in a war . we europeans always blamed the US for not joining emmidiatly during both world wars but now we have done just the same to the US


you can call me whatever names you will but i stand by my views . we need a carefull balance between helping ourselves and helping others , if we dont china will be the police of the world and somehow i doubt they will allow us the same freedom

[Karmashock]

The US and Europe need each other. We have a LOT of differences and will continue to bitch at each other for different things. However, as different as we are, we are more the same then we are alike any other cultural group on the planet. Little things like freedom, property, human dignity, and even the environment mean just about 'nothing' to the vast majority of cultures around the world. In fact, most of them only try to hold these values because the Western powers value and respect people more that do have them. The US at least recognizes this and much of what we are doing is heading off our biggest nightmare... a strong alliance between china and islam... this is honestly the 500 ton elephant that we really just don't even want to talk about... but everything is geared to getting both of these powers away from such a thing.

I only bring this up because this tragity as awful as it is... will likely bring america and Europe together in some more meaningful ways... Nothing huge... just another reminder. We must both act together... the US helping Europe and Europe helping the US... we're just not powerful enough to maintain things unless we remain a 'we'.

[Critta]

he's just trolling... he's been owned so many times in so many debates that he just came here to make a few cheap snipes and then sink back into the shit... I would suggest ignoring him, if he weren't so much fun humiliate.

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA

You never cease to amuse me with your bullshit karma, I was making a serious point about the situation in Asia. If anyone is trolling here it is you. But being a hypocritical little shite seems to be one of your specialities.

I'll reply to his post next. FYI I actually spend quite a bit of time reading these boards, it's just nobody has said anything which has interested me for a while.

Oh and when have you EVER humuliated me? I certainly have never felt very humiliated.

[Critta]

No dude im not saying we shouldnt help them. Dont misinterpret me critta. But yes they act like we owe them.

What do you base this statement on? Everything I have seen with regards to SE Asia recently has had a lot of information about suffering and not a lot else.

[JADezimar]

Go to News webpages etc. You will find where they bitched about us being stingie with our donations etc. And felt we owed them more. Its even discussed on these political forums.

[Karmashock]

Oh and when have you EVER humuliated me? I certainly have never felt very humiliated.
Some people have no shame... good work, that puts you lower then scum.

[Critta]

I'm still waiting to see if you actually know when you apparently humiliated me.

Well?

[shutupandshave]

he's just trolling... he's been owned so many times in so many debates that he just came here to make a few cheap snipes and then sink back into the shit... I would suggest ignoring him, if he weren't so much fun humiliate.

I thought you only insulted in a thread someone if they started it Karma?

[Karmashock]

I'm still waiting to see if you actually know when you apparently humiliated me.

Well?
Pick a thread we exchanged fire in... I'll be able to show you couple in each.
===================================
I thought you only insulted in a thread someone if they started it Karma?
I could defend my offensive stance against Critta, considering that I think he was laying too heavily into Jad... but my heart wouldn't be in it...

Critta, I apologize for snapping at you... Our exchanges in the past were so patterned and your arguments so predictably dishonest that I basically lost all respect for you. This resulted in me breaking the very rule that SUAS just cited.

With due humility and honor, Karmashock.

[shutupandshave]

Do you consider yourself a bad person Karma?

I mean, some people have said you have the ability to be nice sometimes. I gave them the benefit of the doubt and accepted that you probably had some redeeming qualities, but I have seen absolutely no evidence of them.
Ever.

[Critta]

Pick a thread we exchanged fire in... I'll be able to show you couple in each.

That's not an answer and you know it.

If by humiliated you mean that I have conceded a point to you, then that just shows that I am capable of changing my opinions based on new evidence. (something that you are utterly incabably of)

I was laying into JAD? I said that his comment was insensitive, then went on to give my views on the suffering in Asia. How exactly is this "laying into" someone?

You have some very strange views about what a verbal attack is. I try to limit myself to statements of my opinion, and never use personal insults unless someone comes at me all guns blazing (see your first response to me in this thread).

You say my debating style is dishonest? I could say exactly the same about yours. Be both have strong conflicting opinions, I believe that a lot of what you say is utter rubbish, you probably think the same about a lot of my opinions. At the end of the day, they are opinions, and unique to us both, how can you humiliate me over an exchange of opinions?

[Critta]

Go to News webpages etc. You will find where they bitched about us being stingie with our donations etc. And felt we owed them more. Its even discussed on these political forums.

From your first post it sounded as though you thought the people of Asia felt you owed them? Was this your meaning or not?

All I can find on the news websites is a lot of information about the suffering which is going on and the appeals which are being launched to try and raise aid money.

The thread discussing this subject on this forum was someone who felt the US could have helped more and was getting a little offensive about it. This isn't the same as someone involved in the tragedy feeling as though they are "owed" by the rest of the world.

Please expand and explain your point, who do you feel "acted like we owed them" money? Who do you believe won't be greatful once this is done?

I asked you to do this previously, you gave me a vague idea where I could find this information, any chance you could be a little more specific this time?

[Karmashock]

Do you consider yourself a bad person Karma?

I mean, some people have said you have the ability to be nice sometimes. I gave them the benefit of the doubt and accepted that you probably had some redeeming qualities, but I have seen absolutely no evidence of them.
Ever.
I've shown you very little compassion SUAS, largely because I regard you as a person of low moral and intellectual integrity.


I'll give you an example of how this works. My grandmother is an extremely nice woman. However, she don't like Adam Sandler because she think's he thrives too much on potty humor. As a result she'll never be nice to him. From adam sandler's perspective, my grand mother might seem like a mean lady.

Savvy?


I have listened to your distortions, lies, and in some cases outright bigotry. Why would I be nice to you when you're the antithesis of what I value? Ideology aside... I've had really good talks with communists. However, I've only had such talks with honest ones. If I run into one that likes to lie or use dishonest arguments, then it generally falls apart. That's the way of things.


Treat the argument with respect and I will treat you with respect. This is not affection but a matter of honor.
================================
Critta,
Actually, our debating styles are nothing alike. I always expose my thought process and allow people to see exactly what conclusions are leading me to the final conclusions. I invite people to prove me wrong by showing them how I proved to myself that I was right. If you put one of the foundations of my argument into check (chess metaphor), then I'll evaluate the effect.

I am geometric in my thinking. Everything is a 'proof' (geometry metaphor) in a sense.

Your arguments are not comparable...

Love and peace, Karmashock.

[Critta]

Actually, our debating styles are nothing alike. I always expose my thought process and allow people to see exactly what conclusions are leading me to the final conclusions.

Be careful with that word "always" I could find a dozen examples where you have done nothing of the sort.

Also you forget the part where you ignore direct questions and any statement which might actually prove that something you are saying is incorrect.

Oh, and the part where you move on to character assasination or statements such as "my tutor told me" when your entire argument is proven to be incorrect.

So I ask again. How is me stating that a comment is insensitive "laying into" someone?

[Critta]

Pick a thread we exchanged fire in... I'll be able to show you couple in each.

I challenged you to prove a statement you had made, and now you ask me to suggest a thread?

You made the statement that I was "fun to humiliate" and "lower than scum", now I ask you for a 3RD time, prove it, if you can't, well done, you've just humiliated yourself.

[Karmashock]

(note, no quotations... I'm doing my best to avoid them as some people don't like them. I had previously assumed that it make my posts easier to read.)

Critta,
Perhaps I don't always expose my thought process in every post, but I always do so in the thread.

I do not ignore direct questions unless they are being used to divert a question that I asked first. For example, I ask a question about "m" and you respond with a question about "t", then I'll likely ignore it. Otherwise, any omission would be a mistake on my part and not a deliberate diversion. Point one out and I'll answer it... however, there will likely be a question in the same exchange that you were avoiding.

This is part of dishonest arguments... too many diversions and I get annoyed. It means at the very least that the other person is more interested in winning the argument then thinking about the problem.

To me the problem is what matters most.

As to comments on character, I call them as I see them.

As to 'someone told me', the only time I used that was with the republic debate, which you morons can't seem to get over. I admit that from your perspective it looks bad. But there was and remains a communication problem in this instance and I don't want to talk about it. This is not because I think I was wrong there... just because I have no hope getting you to see what I was trying to say when you have a closed mind. Furthermore, it was a tenured university professor at UCLA... not my tutor. You know this, but you're distorting because you can't help yourself. ie dishonest.
-----------------------------------------
Critta,
I made a statement about your character and how I occasionally enjoy it.

You said you didn't feel humiliated... and I think I responded that I didn't much care what you felt.


If anyone is being challenged it is me. Therefore, you must do the initial work. Find a recent argument or don't. I don't really care.

It is your right to disregard my statement as baseless as I would if the statement were directed at me. However, you cannot advance beyond this point without doing more work. This is the way debate works… even in a court case the rules break down like this.

Love and peace, Karmashock.

[JADezimar]

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,11813903%5E7583,00.html

Well theres A start I searched for a long time. I couldnt even find that article above until I looked back in the forums too do it. There is so much coverage on this subject that the old Information is getting burried at a phenomanal rate and to find it could takes hours upon hours.

Ill continue to look for A source thats more direct. But for now thats all I can find too. You've Obviously missed alot of AMerican Tv News Or do you live in america? Aslo why are you trying to debate with me over a comment that I thought wasnt really debatable. pffft.

[Critta]

(note, no quotations... I'm doing my best to avoid them as some people don't like them. I had previously assumed that it make my posts easier to read.)
They do… keep using them, if people don’t want to know what your comment is referring to, that’s their problem.

Point one out and I'll answer it... however, there will likely be a question in the same exchange that you were avoiding.
Well, here’s an example quoted from my posts in this thread, I’ve asked twice and you haven’t answered yet, as this was what started this “discussion” I think it is entirely relevant.

“I was laying into JAD? I said that his comment was insensitive, then went on to give my views on the suffering in Asia. How exactly is this "laying into" someone?”

“So I ask again. How is me stating that a comment is insensitive "laying into" someone?”

If I ask a question it is for a good reason, normally that I want to know what the response is, if you ask me a question I will answer it. If I don’t, I have likely considered it to be a rhetoric, if this is not the case point it out to me and I will answer.

there was and remains a communication problem in this instance and I don't want to talk about it ... just because I have no hope getting you to see what I was trying to say when you have a closed mind.
Send me a PM, point out what it is you think I didn’t understand, I’ll go back through the thread and re-read it, I can't be bothered to get into the debate again, but am interested to see where this breakdown in communication occured.

Furthermore, it was a tenured university professor at UCLA... not my tutor. You know this, but you're distorting because you can't help yourself. ie dishonest.
Actually, it was a simple mistake, I forgot exactly who it was and thought it was your tutor. My bad.

You said you didn't feel humiliated... and I think I responded that I didn't much care what you felt.
You actually responded by telling me I had no shame and was lower than scum.

It seems I’m not the only person who forgets things occasionally, only difference being I forgot something posted 3-4 months ago and you “forgot” something you posted yesterday. Good work.

If anyone is being challenged it is me. Therefore, you must do the initial work. Find a recent argument or don't. I don't really care.
You made several attacks on my character; I gave you the chance to back up these attacks with some proof. If you choose not to I shall assume you were just flaming for the sake of being an arsehole and leave it at that.

[Critta]

Ill continue to look for A source thats more direct. But for now thats all I can find too. You've Obviously missed alot of AMerican Tv News Or do you live in america? Aslo why are you trying to debate with me over a comment that I thought wasnt really debatable. pffft.

Found a whole load more articles now. Ok, I take back my comment about your statement being insensitive. Please accept my apologies.

For the record, I live in the UK, so I am unlikely to have seen any American TV news shows.

I wasn't trying to debate this point with you, merely find out quite who you meant by the word "they". I had assumed you were talking about the people in Asia who have been effected by this rather than the person in charge of aid efforts at the UN.

[shutupandshave]

He attacks everyone that disagrees with him Critta.
He's often wrong, and he's always rude.

We're all sometimes wrong, I have been wrong, you've been wrong. Karma just twists the meaning of the conversation until there is an element of truth in what he says...

To Karma, a builder in the pub using the phrase "I make 30 grand a year" actually means, that his adjusted purchasing power parity is 30 thousand dollars (or pounds, I forget) a year.
It doesn't mean that his salary is 30 thousand pounds per year (either before or after tax, not sure).

I think you told me not to talk to Karma before Critta... well here's the advice back to you.

He's venomous pondscum, leave him alone, because he will lie, and berate you to try and make himself feel important.

[JADezimar]

o0

[shutupandshave]

JAD, I was talking about Karma not you.

In fact, there is not a single mention or thought about you in that entire post.

You huge penis.

[JADezimar]

ya i realized that And im sorry hence i tried to edit my posts before you saw it. I was being my idiot touchy self.

[Xcellsi0r]

Unfortunately, I only came in here now, so this is in relation to the earlier conversation between Kharma and Celtic.


Hey kharma?? Who said that America had the right to "democratize" the world. It's not up to America to decide the fate of other countries. I always thought that this was some sort of attempt at dealing with terrorism. I wasn't aware that you have decided to democratize them. Now that makes you the fucktard.

And yes it is a waste of money, No-one cares if you get the money back or not. You and your dillusional views are really frightening. One thing I can blame you lot for, is the beheading of Ken Bigley and so forth........ If you hadn't tried to "democratize" Iraq, then maybe those innocent people would be alive today.

Black, I didn't realise you could be so cold. Not to help other people is one thing, because we all have to make our own way through life. But not to even care is pretty bad. A person who has no emotions is described as a pychotic man. That's the definition. Do you feel sorry for those people at all man????

Back to Kharma for one sec. I have come to a simple observation. "bush" wants to democratize those countries. Which is another way of saying... he wants other countries to run the same way he does........ It could also be a form of dictatorship, because he using tanks and soldiers to inforce his belief. Now my observation is......... This train of thought is very close to our old friend Hitler. Now, those days have come and gone..... but hitler too had these views, he wanted other countried to run the same way he did. I see many differences between tem, but the are many similarities.

[shutupandshave]

No problem. Sorry for calling you a penis :(

[Xcellsi0r]

Well, I've come to the conclusion, that I really dislike you karmashock. Reading through your other posts, I've found you to be a narrowminded fool, who thinks that when he talks, he expresses the views of your entire country, which by the way is being a dictator. I can't imagine a more aggrivating person to know. I hate people like you. Your views are set in stone and will never change because your so narrowminded and fail to see the bigger picture in every situation. I couldn't be arsed to reply to ANY of your posts that are directed to me. They'd be pointless to respond to. When (if) you grow old, you'll die with the beliefs you have now. You'll never change, you'll never improve. You'll always piss people off.

[shutupandshave]

The thing I think that amuses me about this, is that I imagine Karma now thinks that it's his challenging wit, discussion, and intellectual dominance that puts people off him.
And that he is a fair and likeable person, who's just saying things "as they are" man. Calling it as he sees it.
....In touch.


....Yeah.

It's also interesting that you draw comparisons between Bush and Hitler.

Karma said that I was the only person in the world that did that. Even when other people did, they were wrong, and I was still the only person that ever did.

:)

After talking to the guys here - I dont think that Bush is a Hitler so I will disagree with you there clay. However I do agree that they are both on the same road... but shouting at someone is very different to murdering them.

[Critta]

It's quite interesting to see that Karma went through and replied to all the active threads but this one... Just an observation :D

[shutupandshave]

I think it's because you'll find he never said anything wrong anyway

And you're stupid.

And if you think he ever did anything wrong to anyone then you're a fascist left wing murdering terrorist slave to communism.

[Xcellsi0r]

I think it was wrong to kill him a terrorist

[Critta]

kill him a terrorist? Sounds like a plan to me.

However if I killed a terrorist, I certainly wouldn't give it to Karma :P

[Xcellsi0r]

My apoligies. I meant call..... not kill. :nono:

[Critta]

I guessed as much... I was just kidding :D

[Karmashock]

Well, I've come to the conclusion, that I really dislike you karmashock. Reading through your other posts, I've found you to be a narrowminded fool, who thinks that when he talks, he expresses the views of your entire country, which by the way is being a dictator. I can't imagine a more aggrivating person to know. I hate people like you. Your views are set in stone and will never change because your so narrowminded and fail to see the bigger picture in every situation. I couldn't be arsed to reply to ANY of your posts that are directed to me. They'd be pointless to respond to. When (if) you grow old, you'll die with the beliefs you have now. You'll never change, you'll never improve. You'll always piss people off.
I don't know you or why you think any of the things you do. I can see from some of your comments that you didn't quite understand what I was talking about... but whatever.


The US not only has a right be a responsiblity to democratize the world... your children's children will thank us even if you never understand it.

Love and peace, Karmashock.

[Xcellsi0r]

That's such a dictatorship thing to say. I've never heard anything like it. I'm not even going to explain it or argue with you. You're digging your own hole. And for those who don't see how narrow-minded this fool is, please try and see. I will say one thing. No-one on this planet has the right to control another. The fact that you said that our childrens children will thank us is cause they'll be ignorant of the truth. Wool will be pulled over their eyes and the Americans once again, will glorify their war. Which I think is the most horrible thing that anyone can do. I can't put my anger, frustration into words. That comment is just horrible. If I coud, I'd probably punch you in the face just for saying that. I'm not even a violent person, but jesus, that's awful that people think that. Please, grow up.

[Xcellsi0r]

Oh and another thing......... you sap!!
In another thread, you were talking about fraud within the great US of A. Why do you think that people who fraud each-other and people who cheat the people they represent, people that are not honest and obviously have no morales and crooked ethics. Why do you think that those EXACT people should be able to control other countries and democratize them... Please PLEASE justify that one. I'd love for you to do that. PLEASE........ I'd fuckin' love for you to dig yourself out of that one.

[shutupandshave]

you have oftened lectured about never giving opinions and only giving fact... the way you treat other people's opinions is a clear demonstration of that.

It's not a bad philosophy at all...however, I would like you to prove the following statement

"The US not only has a right be a responsiblity to democratize the world... your children's children will thank us even if you never understand it."

Prove, not give opinions.

no "if's", not "depening on"'s etc.

[Morpheus]

Karma, I truly hope these are just your opinions and you don't actually think that it applies beyond the words to the real world. Hitler thought he had the right to rid world of jews and people would thank him for making the world the better place. He also thought that if Germany would control the whole world, it would bring peace and strength to all the nations. Add the fact that in the mid-WWII Germany had the best army and the best technology, and it all starting to look kinda familiar.....

I know you're going to say it's uncomparable, two different political systems, he was trying to exterminate a nation, etc.... It's ok. I know that you're correct... In your own eyes....

[Karmashock]

I can’t really talk to claymore… he’s more interested in making an ass of himself then understanding what I’m saying. What I’m talking about is very complicated and the product of a great deal more thought then you’re giving it credit for.
=======================================
Suas,
The US does have a responsibility to promote world peace and stability. It has a responsibility to maintain world order and the relevance of international law. All of that is kept together by Western Hegemony. The whole concept of the UN is not international. It isn’t the way most cultures talk to each other… at least traditionally. It is however a very recognizable system to westerners. It has written laws, judges, voting, etc… These just aren’t universal values or forms.

Furthermore, human rights, political freedoms, women’s rights, freedom of speech, etc is all western stuff. What does that mean to 3/4 of the world? The only reason they even listen to you is that its considered modern. The reason it’s considered modern is that it’s professed by the people that seem to own the future.


This is just basic geopolitics.

The US sees some major threats to the current international order and is addressing them the only way it can. It is trying to break up the Islamic threat before it gels into a civilization and trying to strengthen the east so that the whole region isn’t dominated by the Chinese.

The Europeans have been basically no help in any of this… You keep pointing at us nicking the trees while the forest is on fire.


I’ll just let you chew on this… power un-used is power un-had.


You are both right and wrong with your criticisms of the US. We do want to control the world, but we do want to free it too. That is we will purge future civilizational conflicts by freeing the people from old political systems that will inevitability lead them into conflict with all western powers.
===================================
Karma, I truly hope these are just your opinions and you don't actually think that it applies beyond the words to the real world. Hitler thought he had the right to rid world of jews and people would thank him for making the world the better place. He also thought that if Germany would control the whole world, it would bring peace and strength to all the nations. Add the fact that in the mid-WWII Germany had the best army and the best technology, and it all starting to look kinda familiar.....
No connection at all actually. We have no racial or religious prejudice. We welcome diversity. However, when it comes to politics and economics we have some problems.

Parts of the world are closing themselves off and festering hatred. Nothing good can come of that. The people are oppressed as it is and miserable. If anything their misery is being used as a weapon against us.

So we’re fixing two things at once. We’re giving them political and economic freedoms while at the same time solving a future threat.

Don’t bring up Hitler again… This is much more complex then that and bringing him up makes you look stupid. I know you’re not stupid… but you’re not thinking long enough about what I’m saying to come to an intelligent opinion.

Seriously, just stop for a minute. No, don’t post. Stop. Think about it. Give 60 seconds of Gray matter time to this… This isn’t done out of evil intent. We could just fuck them up so bad that they’re never a serious threat. We wouldn’t even need to take military action to do that… That would neutralize the threat. However, we aren’t evil… we really aren’t. This is a longer term solution anyway… we’ll give their people something that will make them feel better about their lives and make them our allies… or at least not our enemies… and likely the enemies of the Chinese.

I know you're going to say it's uncomparable, two different political systems, he was trying to exterminate a nation, etc.... It's ok. I know that you're correct... In your own eyes....
In any eyes, but the blind.

You’re smarter then this… I’m not patronizing you… this is really a silly argument.
Love and peace for us all, Karmashock

[JADezimar]

Morph Comparing Hitler and The USLol.

The Us isnt trying to Exterminate People. How can you compare the two ? Should we compare england to Hitler for trying to exterminate The imperial system ?

[Karmashock]

England was far far worse then we are... The English would go to ANY lengths to get power... torture? Ha... Try germ warfare. Fuck with the British and they'll kill you down to the last screaming child.

The US doesn't operate like that... We control more through ideas and forms. Or through glamour (look at the tabloids… they talk about glamorous people… the universe centers around them… a nation can do that too.) or 'bling' (think of what bling gets a man… it can get that for a nation)... Hollywood... Name another culture that gets its culture consumed the world over? There are very few countries in which you can't get a McDonald’s hamburger... or a coca cola. We're everywhere... it's by design. We're not out there to steal gold like the Spanish, purify the races like the Germans, or colonize like the British. What we're doing in the world is more about controlling the future of the world's development. With our passage you'll see freedom take root around the world. There is no evil in that... We’re making it as painless as we can. The alternative is to lose the future... and our grandchildren won't like that. That you can't even conceive of a world where Europe and the US are secondary or tertiary powers is proof of that. The shock of that event might well be beyond you. We're out their catching bullets in our teeth... it's what we do.

The only tragedy will be if we fail... if we fail, the US will likely pull inward... we might even go isolationist... and then Europe will have keep the UN relevant all by themselves. I can't see them succeeding... they're so atrophied at this point they're little more then words as is... to say nothing of completely losing the will to exert force. Look back at empires that died... Europe as an empire... alone... the west would have fallen already.

We stopped Germany... we stopped Russia...

We know our job and that's all we're doing. Your grand fathers know more about it then you’ll likely ever know.




Think what you like about America... but know we aren't out for money, territory, or to hurt people... we want minds... attention... love. This is seriously dense geopolitical stuff here... I'm sparing you a lot of theories and technical terms. Everything I have told you is basically the opinion of the Harvard Securities studies department… This is the product of the best US minds over about three generations.

We don’t yell this because it would break the spell… Both Islam and China fallen through the cracks by shutting themselves off from us.

We hope to slowly infect China over time with our culture and capitalism… Islam is a tough nut… we have to make them love freedom and hate the component of their culture that is walling themselves off from us… Iraq is a good insertion point.

[shutupandshave]

1984

[Karmashock]

no... information is inpossible to control... you couldn't trick a civilization like ours into that... we're also free... something the people in 1984 were not.

We've nothing in common with them except that we are at war and are making some small allowances for that...

We have always done this... and are doing it less so today then we have in the past.

Are you american?... I just want to know if you are aware of our history?

[Xcellsi0r]

Karma, I can vaguely see where you are coming from. Although I do have ethical questions for YOU to think about. You tell us that we're not thinking about it, and not commiting gray matter to it.

Do you really believe that it's right to (in your words) infect other cultures, destroy their unique culture and turn it into more America??

To be honest, I find it hard to believe that it's all for love. Money drives the world, as simple as that might sound, money does, very few people (bar those involved with charity etc) do things out of kindness etc. America would not "infect" other countries if there was nothing to gain, and I don't believe that they consider unification to be the desired gain.

It's scary to think of the power that America has on the world. It's nothing to be proud of, or smile about, or boast about. It is true that America has a deep running level of power underneath nearly every society, bar the ones they're attacking, and to be honest, that says alot. You say they'll "infect china" at some stage. You say that America has a right to do all this. But the clear point, is that they don't. What people believe on the other side of the planet, should not be of concern to America.

If I could talk about World War for a second now. I believe that the reason why America FINALLY decided to help the nearly defeated Europe, is because if Germany hade taken over Europe, they would have become too powerful for America to defeat. If it was America's decision to help Europe out of the good of their heart, than they could have joined in a little earlier saving the lives of a few hundred thousand, don't you think. Or wait, karmashock will turn around and say that that''s a childish statment because he can't prove it wrong.

Do you think that America, and the American army, want PEACE all over the world??

People do notice the fact that America in Iraq went straight for the oil. Now, that ""Clearly" shows that it's nothing to do with money, now does it??

Although I see where you are coming from karma, I still believe that it's wrong and that the reasons are questionable, VERY questionable in most cases.
-----
We stopped Germany... we stopped Russia...

We know our job and that's all we're doing.
-----
Do you really think that's it's your JOB to correct the world. It's very scary when I think that correcting the world means turning it into America??

I would also like to point out........ The cuban medical blockade.
You claim that America are making the world a better place by spreading the love.
This topic gets me very annoyed, be careful with your response to this karma. America refuse to sell medical supplies to Cuba. In the hospitals, they over use equipment because they have no choice. The best doctors are there but they have the worst equipment and tools. So why is it that America don't give them medical supplies, it's not giving them weapons or a method to destroy, it's so they can help themselves. Now, I know the reason for this.
It's because Cuba is communist, and because they believe in different methods of living, America ( who have this great responsibility to free the world) have decided to punish EVERY SINGLE person in Cuba by not helping medically. It's not even to do with giving it away, Cuba would pay for it etc, it's just that this is what America is like. You don't do what they say, they punish you, like training a dog!! If you do what America says, they don't punish you.

Now, karma, I'd like to here your response, and please spare me your child-like comments on how I don't think about it enough, or that I'm blind, I think I'm pretty aware of what's going on thanks.

[shutupandshave]

America went to war because the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbour. The US was not at war before then. The Japanese were allied with the Germans, so therefore the US also went to war with Germany.

The thing with you being blind Claymore - is that it's "blindness" that enabled people like you to know there were no WMD of destruction in Iraq.

[Xcellsi0r]

So if there were no WMD's in there, where have they gone? Sattelites would have picked up large weapons moving out of Iraq.

[JADezimar]

Karma
We stopped Germany... we stopped Russia...

We know our job and that's all we're doing.

Claymore
Do you really think that's it's your JOB to correct the world. It's very scary when I think that correcting the world means turning it into America??

Claymore I respect your posts. It was well done, well thought out, and respectful. You deserve the same. For the above quotes though, I would like to know where we would be if either of those above aforementioned nations had gotten there way? Also we need to watch the world around us maybe even go isolationist or keep doing what were doing. Isationalationism would be good for the world opinion, (allthough we could watch it fall to chaos). Or we can continue what we are doing and keeping our own future insured. We dont have to americanize everything but make it free atleast and in the meantime insuring our economic power and influence. IF we dont our nation will fall to substandards are you one to really give up the great things you have?

[Xcellsi0r]

I would also like to just breifly talk about the EU. You say Europe is useless, (not in those words), but Europe is doing something similar to America but in a very much preferabel way. Europe is gradually getting bordering countries to join the EU, bar Britain, (they're too "proud") ((I'm not british by the way)), EU don't do things using arms and intimidation, or wait for someone to kick them before they ull out a giun and blow their head off for doing that. No. The EU pull new countries into it, and spread the money around, building the economy and general infrastructure upwards across the board. So, although EU aren't going out with tanks blowing up neighbours because they nagged us. No.... EU are building and building and creating not empire but a large community that still has it's own culture and beliefs within each country. EU are slowly spreading but they're not changing peoples views or opinions. So... to be honest, I prefer that then to America's views or methods.

[shutupandshave]

Actually Britain was one of the founding states of the EU.

The EU has the potential to be the new mature US, with each country acting like a state of the US, and governed by a floating capital city. I think the EU does change people's opinions, but I hope that the EU doesn't force itself onto other countries.

[JADezimar]

You say Europe is useless, (not in those words), but Europe is doing something similar to America but in a very much preferabel way. Europe is gradually getting bordering countries to join the EU, bar Britain

So countries like france can continue to Help out countries in violations of U.N. Sanctions and more. The more countries added, the more Corruption that the EU will be responsible for.

Suas
The EU has the potential to be the new mature US, with each country acting like a state of the US, and governed by a floating capital city. I think the EU does change people's opinions, but I hope that the EU doesn't force itself onto other countries

Again, being more mature is a laughing matter. Countries in the EU committing crimes and Being corrupt by trading with countries there not suppose to and more. to get cheaper oil. Ya makes them so much better than the U.S.

[shutupandshave]

No Jad, the reason that the EU is expanding is not so countries like France can continue to Help out contouries in violatoins on U.N. Sanctions and more. Nor are they doing it to make themselves more responsible for more Corruption. I believe that you are mistaken. However if you can provide me with some evidence for your statements, feel free.

The countries of the EU are more mature (certainly in terms of age) than the US. By taking lessons from the mistakes in the US it may be possible to create a more mature super-power.

Last I heard "JAD" the US had borrowed 5 billion dollars worth of oil from Iraq. Perhaps you should consider finding it before spouting your mouth off about something you almost certainly have no immediate evidence to back yourself up with.

[MVB]

Suas, I would be curious as to your reasons for claiming the European nations as more mature ... yes, some of them are older (though many are not older at all ... Germany is in practicality only about 50 years old, Russia only 20 years old, France only 50 years old, etc.), but I would love a spirited discussion regarding any supposed maturity they hold over America. France, just as an example, certainly was contributing to Iraqi corruption, and that is not exactly a mature thing to do. England is right with the US on almost everything, and will likely continue to be (for a bunch of background reasons of another sort). IMO America is certainly far from perfect; mistakes abound globally, however, and I see the European nations as a) not completely in unison in their actions, except perhaps financially; b) some are basically just nations that follow whatever the US does; c) others do not follow the US, but commit equal or sometimes greater mistakes of their own, which are simply of a different kind.

Where did you read/hear the that US "borrowed" billioin dollars worth of oil from Iraq?

[Karmashock]

Do you really believe that it's right to (in your words) infect other cultures, destroy their unique culture and turn it into more America??
Yes I do. Their people are unhappy and abused... furthermore, there will be a conflict.

Think about all the things you care about.

Think about how those things keep coming up in the western nations seem to be the only ones that really give a damn. Asia doesn't care about political freedoms, Africa doesn't care about child soldiers, the middle east doesn't care religious executions, and south asia doesn't care about sex slaves.

As our power wanes, the relevance of the things you care about declines.

Protect the your power or don't complain when nothing is up to you ever again... China will protect it's economic interests in the world... nothing more. The US is far better.

To be honest, I find it hard to believe that it's all for love. Money drives the world, as simple as that might sound, money does, very few people (bar those involved with charity etc) do things out of kindness etc. America would not "infect" other countries if there was nothing to gain, and I don't believe that they consider unification to be the desired gain.
It isn't about money. That's actually the last thing it's about. Our religious people are more interested in getting Christianity in the mid east (and that's an extremely tiny feeling in the US) then we are about getting money. We've lost money by going into Iraq as we knew we would... and we will continue to lose money.

What we are doing there is not what you make money on... it's what you spend it on.

It's scary to think of the power that America has on the world. It's nothing to be proud of, or smile about, or boast about. It is true that America has a deep running level of power underneath nearly every society, bar the ones they're attacking, and to be honest, that says alot. You say they'll "infect china" at some stage. You say that America has a right to do all this. But the clear point, is that they don't. What people believe on the other side of the planet, should not be of concern to America.
The world is too small to think like this. If you don't effect them, then you surrender that whole theater to the Chinese. All of east asia will fall under their dominion. They will rule it far far far more harshly then we have and many cultures will suffer. Our hegemony is based upon glamor, bling, and suggestion. The Chinese will build their rule on brute force and the threat of brute force... period.

Over the past 100 years only 15 percent of the US's conflicts have been resolved with violence... over 75 percent of china's have been settled with violence. You don't want them in power.

The US isn't really interested in ruling... as you can see... we don't. However, we do object to other people filling the vacuum. China will not gain dominance of east asia... Already the Japanese are extremely uneasy about it.

They're considering going nuclear... something that they could do at any time without any great difficulty. They certainly have the technology.

Put your gray matter to this... World order is currently based primary on US power. Minus that Europe becomes irrelevant and all hte other powers come up a peg. China is already the superior to Europe and so will have nothing to fear in its own theater. The arabs hate the Europeans for centuries of oppression and so will glady ally with China. Minus the US what does Europe have? South America will ally with china over Europe as they will ally with anyone that they perceive as being stronger. So who are your friends? Perhaps the russians? Maybe they'll sit this one out?

I want you to see the big picture because these are the terms in which the US is thinking. Unless you see the big picture you're totally blind to game board.

If I could talk about World War for a second now. I believe that the reason why America FINALLY decided to help the nearly defeated Europe, is because if Germany hade taken over Europe, they would have become too powerful for America to defeat. If it was America's decision to help Europe out of the good of their heart, than they could have joined in a little earlier saving the lives of a few hundred thousand, don't you think.
It wasn't our fucking war. You have to see it from our perspective. We were very pissed at you for letting it go that far. We told you to deal with Hilter and you said "give peace a chance"... So we said fine.

We supplied you and the Russians with weapons all throughout the war. Hitler even thought about invading or bombing the US to stop us from doing that.

We later joined the war after Japan bombed us... though to be honest we wouldn't have let England fall.

If you don't understand our deep seated love of England then you don't understand America. You are not us... but you're family... Battles in Europe were always traditionally ignored by the US. Consider your wars with the French. The less we had to do with it the happier we were. We treated the First war just like that. Then we joined when we realized that it was a different sort of war and you needed our help. With WWII we were pretty irritated that we had to go to war again... Seriously... I still don't know what teh european powers allowed germany to build up again...

How fuckin stupid can you be? Do you think we'd let canada build up next to us if they were an enemy? Fuck no... we'd smash that shit.

Do you think that America, and the American army, want PEACE all over the world??
Yes.

People do notice the fact that America in Iraq went straight for the oil. Now, that ""Clearly" shows that it's nothing to do with money, now does it??
No it doesn't do you know how much we've spent on this war? Do you know how many years it would take the oil fields of Iraq to pay that down? Over 10 years. Furthermore, we're not taking their oil. We're buying it. Just like we would buy it from anyone else.


We saved the oil fields because that's all Iraq has... without the oil money their people could literally stave.

STOP!! Think about that... Just stop reading... 10 seconds... How are they going to feed themselves? Farming? Iraq hasn't been able to feed itself for a long long time. Oil money pays for food. Saving the oil was like saving the family business so the kids don't starve.

We lost money and will never get it back. We did it for Iraq's future... period.

Do you really think that's it's your JOB to correct the world. It's very scary when I think that correcting the world means turning it into America??
We're not turning it into America per se... Although perhaps we are... The difference would be that if you go to many parts of the US like little Korea, or little Armenia you'll find cultures and religions taht still harken back to their home countries... but that are also American in how they conduct business and politics.

We simply want people to be free. Remember our Declaration of independence... "We hold these truths to be self evident"... that means everyone everywhere.

As to our job... we've been doing it ever since Europe fell appart. You can have the job back if you want it... we sure as hell don't... but we've got a tigar by the tail as they say... we can't let go.

I would also like to point out........ The cuban medical blockade.
You claim that America are making the world a better place by spreading the love.
No, freedom.

What does the missile blockade have to do with that? you think the US should have allowed the Soviets to put Nuclear missiles in Cuba? Please tell me you're not insane.
This topic gets me very annoyed, be careful with your response to this karma. America refuse to sell medical supplies to Cuba. In the hospitals, they over use equipment because they have no choice. The best doctors are there but they have the worst equipment and tools. So why is it that America don't give them medical supplies, it's not giving them weapons or a method to destroy, it's so they can help themselves. Now, I know the reason for this.
It's because Cuba is communist, and because they believe in different methods of living, America ( who have this great responsibility to free the world) have decided to punish EVERY SINGLE person in Cuba by not helping medically. It's not even to do with giving it away, Cuba would pay for it etc, it's just that this is what America is like. You don't do what they say, they punish you, like training a dog!! If you do what America says, they don't punish you.
This is just Cuban propaganda.

STOP! THINK ABOUT THIS... I know you aren't going to believe this so you really need to just slow down here.

The US embargo only prevents the US from selling or buying goods from Cuba. ANY other nation on earth can buy or sell goods to Cuba. Mexico, England, Bermuda, France, Venezuela, Russia, Chile, and/or China can ALL do business with Cuba.

why are they poor? Because they're communists. Kind of obvious really. Also, Castro and his cronies rape the people for all the money they can get out of them. The top caste in Cuba all drive luxury cars and play on old golf courses from the days when Cuba wasn't communist.

Now, karma, I'd like to here your response, and please spare me your child-like comments on how I don't think about it enough, or that I'm blind, I think I'm pretty aware of what's going on thanks.
They aren't child like just because you don't personally find them flattering. The simple fact is that you don't stop long enough on the point to actually listen to what I'm saying. You make a snap judgment and they post before its even really been thought about.


YOu did much much much better this time. I would like to think this is because I asked you to slow down... but who knows.
(continued :) )

[Karmashock]

I would also like to just breifly talk about the EU. You say Europe is useless, (not in those words), but Europe is doing something similar to America but in a very much preferabel way. Europe is gradually getting bordering countries to join the EU, bar Britain, (they're too "proud") ((I'm not british by the way)), EU don't do things using arms and intimidation, or wait for someone to kick them before they ull out a giun and blow their head off for doing that. No. The EU pull new countries into it, and spread the money around, building the economy and general infrastructure upwards across the board. So, although EU aren't going out with tanks blowing up neighbours because they nagged us. No.... EU are building and building and creating not empire but a large community that still has it's own culture and beliefs within each country. EU are slowly spreading but they're not changing peoples views or opinions. So... to be honest, I prefer that then to America's views or methods.
The EU’s size can’t get much larger. You’ve acquired most of the local western nations and there really isn’t much farther you can go without incorporating nations that have very different values from your own.
Furthermore, the US rarely resorts to violence. Of any power of our size in history, you cannot find one that is as restrained as us. Name a nation in Europe that was as open and fair with this kind of power? No power like us has ever existed.

Also as I said before, most of our power comes through trade or cultural exchange… so we solve problems many times without even using our diplomats.
======================================
The EU has the potential to be the new mature US, with each country acting like a state of the US, and governed by a floating capital city. I think the EU does change people's opinions, but I hope that the EU doesn't force itself onto other countries.
Power un-used is power un-had. So long as Europe spends most of it’s money on self indulgent social programs and remains pacifist throughout the world, it will remain irrelevant.

I’m sorry, but that’s just the way the world works.

If you want power, then you have to pick up the sword… and to that we welcome you… we could use another man watching the wall. Hell, if you become as powerful as you hope, then we’ll just leave it to you.



We never wanted this power… it freaks us out. But we have no choice. A westerner must take the power… or it falls to those that will. If the Europeans won’t take it, then it falls to us… and it is our burden to bear.

Our current operation is to spread democracy… it makes sense to us whatever you may think of it… and there is no evil intent.
Love and peace, karmashock.

[shutupandshave]

woah MVB
so the country of Germany has only been around for the past 50 years? So what was there before?

We fought Germany in the first world war. That is 100 years ago.
I understand that you are saying that European countries have had huge upheavals in the past 100 years, but that doesn't mean that they are not the same countries anymore. They speak the same languages, worship the same gods, and call themselves by the same name as they have done for a very long time.

I clarified my maturity comment by saying
"The countries of the EU are more mature (certainly in terms of age) than the US."

I think the US has many aspects that it has got "righter" than Europe, however it has also made mistakes... and by learning from both the EU has the potential to create a more mature super-power.

If you still really think that Germany has only been in existance for 50 years then 1) how long has the UK been around, and 2) what was around in Germany 60 years ago - what was it called, what language was spoken there?

Iraq's missing billions
http://www.christianaid.org.uk/news/media/pressrel/031023p.htm

I think it's going to be very difficult for us to discuss the maturity of EU countries when you think Germany has only been in existance for 50 years.

[JADezimar]

What do you mean Suas?

http://www.iraqwatch.org/government/US/Letters,%20reports%20and%20statements/hirc-pressreleasr-10-27-00.htm

We suspect that you are extremely concerned, as we certainly are, about the increasing number of sanctions-violating flights into Iraq. Needless to say, it is not surprising that these flights have been initiated by Russia and France, both of which are permanent members of the Security Council.


This articile is no where near what I have seen on the news about france, And its Violations of trading with Iraq Etc. Im still searching the web. I am not adept at finding what I need to find, even If I were looking for yahoo:P

Suas
understand that you are saying that European countries have had huge upheavals in the past 100 years, but that doesn't mean that they are not the same countries anymore.

You are kidding right? NO really you are kidding right? Cuase I mean that statement is absurd to think that germany is not a totally different nation than it was in the world wars. I bet even if you asked a german if he would want to be associated with the ideals of germany, im sure he would say No.

[MVB]

Suas, Americans speak the same language as Brits, worship the same gods, and call themselves the same name -- caucasian, with a speckling of black and asian and others. Does this mean America = Britain?

Germany as a nation was completely rebuilt around 50-60 years ago. This makes them practically 50-60 years old as a nation. If you are claiming all that is required is the people and the customs and what-not, well then we are all Africans, because we still could find many similarities between ourselves and the original big group of homo sapiens to come out of Africa. Point is, we're talking at the political/national level here, and nations like Germany just aren't very old in that sense.

[shutupandshave]

How did those flights violate sanctions?

Personally I dont like much about the French either.

JAD

Spain and Japan are totally different nations.
Germany pre-war and germany post-war are the same country. They are both called Germany, they both speak German, and they are both on the same piece of land pretty much.

I dont want to be associated with the ideals of the Crusades. But I dont deny that it was England that was doing it.
I dont want to be associated with slavery, but England was pretty involved there too.

[JADezimar]

Point is, we're talking at the political/national level here, and nations like Germany just aren't very old in that sense.

Ya was probably smart to Come out and point that out in the firsts posts. Cuase instead of one big posts. Now you have to posts many extra posts to re explain yourself. I really thought that was obvious, the aforementioned quote that is.

[Karmashock]

The US has had the SAME government for over 200 years. With the exception of the Swiss, you can't find anyone in Europe that can make that claim.

And the Swiss aren't down with the EU.

[stats]

I have got to disagree with you Mike, France and Germany are the same countries. America does not equal Britain becuase it does not call it's self britain, it broke away in the (i was going to say civil) independence wars and bought a whole load of other territory from the EU colonial powers (including britain) and formed the US.

Germany is strange, it has had a huge upheaval over the last 100 years and taken one hell of a battering and has rebuilt both physically (We inflicted WAY more damage on germany than they did on us with carpet bombing-heh, still ppl talk about 'The Blitz') and ideologically in some respects but it is still the same territory with the same culture and ppl it had before.

And france has been around just as long as we have, we have been fighting them for thousands of years, we have conquered them - they have conquered us. We are still here and still brittish and the french are still arrogant, stinky garlic and onion breathed, frog eating swine! And poor losers =D (i dont seriously have anything against them) but they do have sexy accents!!

Oh and iin the words of winston churchill:

Russia is a puzzle wrapped in a riddle wrapped in an enigma - not even gonna try to understand them

[shutupandshave]

So when someone says to you MVB - what country do you come from, do you say "caucasion" or "America"?

We're talking about Countries, and Caucasion is not a country.

I am completely at a loss as to how the hell we're having this conversation. You're pulling a Karma here and arguing a point that is completely absurd. Snap out of it mate!

To say that Germany is a country that is 50 years old is as wrong as saying British is a Republic.

I am talking about the age of the country called Germany. I am saying that it is more than the age of the country called USA. I am not talking about it's political age, or it's emotional stability. I am talking about the age of the country.

And if you want to get into a dick showing match, then UK has been a monarchy for hundreds of years more than the US has been a Republic. I dont care, it means nothing.

I would also argue that the US is less politically more mature than some of the EU member countries (although more mature than far more).

I made the point of saying that we were talking about the age of the country, and not it's political age here:
"I understand that you are saying that European countries have had huge upheavals in the past 100 years, but that doesn't mean that they are not the same countries anymore. "

I realise that politically some European countries have changed. So have some of the US states.

This does not mean that Germany is a country that is only 60 years old.

[shutupandshave]

Karma, the UK has had a parliment for many hundreds of years.

[JADezimar]

I am talking about the age of the country.

Which has nothing to do with its political maturity. To make Mature political Decisions. How clear does it have to get!!!! This is madness.

[stats]

yeh, but to be fair it was gimped till cromwell... and even after that for a bit

[Karmashock]

... I can't believe you're claiming anything based on how old your buildings are... cus' that's all you've got on us.

Your governments have changed dramatically in the way they opperate over the years while the US has remained largely unchanged since colonial times. We've obvious changed a bunch of laws... mostly regarding race and the introduction of new social services... but asside from that we're the same.

England has changed far more... France went through government shift in 1958 and is not considered the same government... Ask the french. Germany can't be said to be older as a GOVERNMENT then the reunification... there are many others.

I think you're confusing countries with govenments Suas... While often the same thing... in these cases they aren't. All these states went through major and minor changes that effectively made them new governments.

[shutupandshave]

Stats: Very true.


No JAD, it doesn't have anything to do with political maturity... which is why when it seemed you folks were talking about that (which is a very lengthy discussion that I would rather not get into until this one is resolved) I immediately clarified. Then clarified again a couple more times for you.

[JADezimar]

If you say so Suas. Im sure your words are god err Fact errr (is not these forums opinions). I mean if we gave the germans lets say a trudilarchy for a government. They would definitely have all the history and know how of there pasts governments to make good mature decisions for there "old" country.

[Karmashock]

If your great grand fathers were in charge, they'd bitch slap the lot of you. ;)

[shutupandshave]

Or else they'd be appalled at the fact their country is not going to exist 50 years in the future ;)

JAD: stop editing posts after I've replied.

[stats]

We have changed, but then i dont shit in nappies anymore, im still the same person. Our government has changed some - we're still England. I hope that we continue to change and grow and evolve but we will STILL be the same people and the same country. And no one is try to say that the age of europe makes us more able to make a desision that your little atlantic colony :ponder: And if they are - they are just being thick. Just saying that we are older and we have nicer buildings :D

Karma: Eh? Grandpa used to lock me in the living room and remove the door handles... But umm... what u talking about?

[JADezimar]

What are you talking about Saus.

JAD waits for Saus to posts before editing* evil grin*

[Karmashock]

This really isn't a discussion I'm prepared to have with people that don't have a good education in this field.

nothing personal... but you're too rigid and you don't understand the subtly of what we're talking about. This is all pretty basic from where I'm standing, so I can only imagine there is an education problem here...

oh well... I'm not going to get anywhere with you if that's what's going on, so I'll just drop it...

Think what you will, karmashock.

[stats]

This really isn't a discussion I'm prepared to have with people that don't have a good education in this field.

nothing personal... but you're too rigid and you don't understand the subtly of what we're talking about. This is all pretty basic from where I'm standing, so I can only imagine there is an education problem here...

oh well... I'm not going to get anywhere with you if that's what's going on, so I'll just drop it...

Think what you will, karmashock.

weak

[shutupandshave]

Yes this all seems very basic to me as well - however before you and your mighty mind goes elsewhere - I am interested to know how long the UK has been a constitutional monarchy - as you said only the Swiss has had the same type of government for the last couple of hundred years?

[JADezimar]

WoW I think it is funny the only time ever has saus Been Factually right. That he keeps bringing it up. Well If only that had been done with suas about who supports terrorism. Man so does that make you wrong with all your discussions, cuase I toasted you then.

[stats]

i ran karma's post through my magical child translator and came up with the following:

'Dont know what im on about'

[JADezimar]

Stats Atleast Karma has hit Puberty.

[shutupandshave]

what the hell did you say JAD, I dont understand.

You seemed to be saying that I have been talking about this for ages and ages, because it was the only thing I have been right about.

This conversation only started today, and nothing has been proven yet (although I do think I am right).

If you are referring to the Republic "incident" then you are mistaken. This has nothing to do with that, and I was not talking about that.

You toasted me where?

[Karmashock]

If you can't grasp the fact that many European governments are less then a 100 years old, then you're either poorly educated or mentally handicapped.

[shutupandshave]

I can grasp that fact fine - in fact so fine that I have, on more than one occasion in this thread stated that I understand that the governments were young, however the statement I made was about the age of the countries, not they're governments.

How long has the UK been a constitutional monarchy?

[JADezimar]

You seemed to be saying that I have been talking about this for ages and ages, because it was the only thing I have been right about.\

When you mentioned the constitutional monarchy thing. You bring that up in several posts. I can do a word search. Im sure I will see it dozens of times. Of course you will have to search your material firsts.

You toasted me where?

When you said the UK in no shape or form supported IRA terrorists. Thats a long winded thread I had to explain to you like I talk to my cats.

[Larsson7]

Suas stated that teh UK Government does not support IRA terrorism and he is correct.

Why would Suas say that the Government, that the IRA try to kill, is sponsored by that Government?

I will stand corrected if it materialises that Suas stated that normal UK people (Like those killed in the Warrington bomb by the IRA) give them support.

[shutupandshave]

*sighs*

You know, if you hadn't bitched about me saying the US involvement with terrorism was incorrect, you would have been right about "toasting me" (as you so gratiously put it)... but you're not anymore. Bad luck. You toasted yourself.

The fact that the UK is a constitutional monarchy in this thread is being used for the a different argument.

Therefore I am not bringing up the same argument.

[JADezimar]

Go re-read the thread its huge covering this topic. And yes your bringing up same argument to make a point in the same way you alwayz do Suas.

[Karmashock]

I can grasp that fact fine
Then stop arguing for the sake of arguing, accept that europe has no place to lecture the US and cite it's age, and kindly shut the fuck up.

We were english before we were Americans... at least many of us were... so really all people on the whole planet are just as old. THe only difference is how long you've been popping squat on your land.

Which in terms of 'wisdom' is fucking meaningless.

By citing your 'people' as the true age of your country, you've just make your people the same age as every other people on the fucking planet.

[shutupandshave]

Yes a lot of that is correct... but arguing that Germany is 50 years old is arguing for the sake of arguing... not arguing that Europe is more Mature, which is completely a matter of opinion.

[JADezimar]

Both are opinions. In the way there being argued. You cant argue there name and ownership of land really. But that is not what is being argued. Your arguing Politics which views can change on as much as the argument of maturity. You will find lots of people out there that beleive nations are new with new leaders and government types. Why do you think the U.S keeps calling it the NEW Iraq. LOL

[shutupandshave]

No, you cannot argue that the country of Germany is only 50 years old....not without being wrong anyway.

[JADezimar]

That is your opinion. Find a few sites that state that as fact. No not in generlization but about our subject.

[Karmashock]

No, you cannot argue that the country of Germany is only 50 years old....not without being wrong anyway.
What does that have to do with you being able to act like you're more mature or older then us? You don't know anything we don't know and haven't seen anything we haven't seen. Give me a break.

All you're saying is "the sign on the door is older then the sign on your door... even though we've changed management about 6 times since you moved into your shop"... "BUT I KNOW MORE THEN YOU!"

definitely a flibble moment.
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/ian.ridley3/images/flibble.gif

[shutupandshave]

Because many European countries were in existance before the USA was formed.

That is how I can "act" like "I" am more mature or older than you.

[JADezimar]

LOl

[Karmashock]

But only in name. Your governments have changed since then. You've just kept the people and the name.


What you're saying would be like me saying the US people have been around since James Town in the Virgina colony... which is dumb.



Your people are physically no older then ours and have no experence that goes back any older then our people. Our government is older then most european governments. And while your people have spent two generations rebuilding your shattered civilzation, we've been out keeping your old hegemony polished.

If anyone should be lecturing anyone it is us...

that is unless your great great grand fathers would like to say a few words... other than that you're fucking clueless. Your nonsense doesn't work in the real world. It sounds nice in the UN... but it isn't realistic.


They respond to force, perceptions of force, wealth, power, and glamour.

They don't respond to flowery words.... not even europeans respond to that... they just like to trade them like collectable cards.

[shutupandshave]

Yes,

But I was talking about the age of the country, not the political experience of it's inhabitants.

If I said to you "the UK has a bigger army than the US" you would most likely laugh at me... if I started quoting that the UK army had been in more wars, had more combat time etc etc - then you would probably agree on those points with me - you might even admit to seeing why I would think that the UK had a bigger army than the US...
Nothing however would change the fact that I would be wrong... the UK does not have a big army than the US.

The fact that these countries have changed governments etc does not mean that they are new countries. England is still England, and it is still OLDER than the US.

I understand that at the beginning when I made the comment about maturity it could have been taken as economic or political maturity - which is why I have pointed out so many times, I am talking about the age of country.

JAD, what is so funny about my statement?

[JADezimar]

You still claim the age of the country itself makes it politicaly more mature.

[shutupandshave]

QUOTE PLEASE?

[Burned]

You still claim the age of the country itself makes it politicaly more mature.

In some way, he's right.

suas, stats, dont be bother to argue with karma, arguing with him is like arguing with a wall.(Karma u dont have to respond to this because ive heard so much nonsense on this thread that im done with it)

The US being world police and ruling it? :errr: :errr:
*goes buy a ticket for the next spaceship going to the moon*

[Karmashock]

You know your government isn't older then ours?
I can grasp that fact fine
And your people aren't any more knowledgeble then us?
But I was talking about the age of the country, not the political experience of it's inhabitants.

Then you have no basis under which to condiscend to us. You are as young if not younger and your people are if anything less familar with geopolitics.

So the only thing you have left are your old buildings... Well, they're very nice... we've got some newer buildings that are just as impressive and will likely stand taller and longer then yours will.

not that any this has any impact on our relations... or your ablity to give us advice or suggestions.



If anyone, the chinese should be giving us both advice... There perhaps the US might listen... not for their even older buildings, but for their near hegemonic power... no nation on earth gets the attention from the US that China does... even with the middle east... we're always keeping one eye on china.

[shutupandshave]

I made a statement - you took it as condescending - that's not my fault.

Burned, I dont think Jad is right in his statement that I was talking about the political maturity...especially as I had said in the previous post

"But I was talking about the age of the country, not the political experience of it's inhabitants."

That clearly states that I was not talking about political maturity.


Karma - perhaps though - you should consider the way you phrase comments about the rest of the world when you find it so offensive that I suggest that many European nations have been around longer than the USA... imagine if I had said something like oh... the advancement of mankind has been more because of Europe than because of America... Almost all the great art and music in the world originated from Europe, or something like that.

Then you'd be really pissed.

[Xcellsi0r]

Listen karmashock, I think your ways of talking about are childish. The way you took about Canada and China and how you'll kill them if they try anything. JESUS CHRIST!!! You're a sap, why do you look at it like a big computer game. You sound like someone playing total war or something. This isn't red alert or something. You talk as if you rule America:
-- We think like this.
-- We will do that if you do this.
-- We are great, everyone else is weak and need to be more like us.
-- We need to insert our culture and replace yours with ours.

Man, this is what you sound like. This is how I play computer games karma. I really think that you're talking complete shite. And I've lost all respect for your opinion because if anyone read your posts, this is what you're saying to everyone here.
And as for your door analogy:
You say that you've had the same managment all this time, but that the shop is younger.
Meanwhile, EU has had an older shop, but new management. Well, you see, the EU has had new management, but the EU "shop" has had the same staff all this time. Just cause someone new takes charge, doesn't mean the country resets and startes over, so stop being a plonker!! The people of Germany have being living there for a little more than 50 years. And as for your skin deep observation, just cause the government changes, doesn't mean a new population comes in!!!

[JADezimar]

Your saying people That are older than 50 years of age are all the ones running office etc?

I dont think any of the people from old germany are still running it. Same As Iraq, god I cant turn on the tube and not hear words about NEW Iraq. Ya NEW.

[Xcellsi0r]

Suas, Although your comment is completely true about the art etc in Europe, karma will now turn around and say, "yeah, but that's pointless, how is art productive in anyway in a political world and how does it help Europe BLOW UP EVERY OTHER COUNTRY THAT ATTACKS EUROPE" You're argueing with a narrowminded, completely American (will never say a bad word about it) fool. I doubt he'll understand the meaning behind art and the scientific break throughs that occured in Europe.

[JADezimar]

I doubt he'll understand the meaning behind art and the scientific break throughs that occured in Europe.

What the hell do those have to do with mature decisions? You remember the renaissance period. Plenty of war happened then did it not. Barbaric ages. I would say.

[Xcellsi0r]

Same As Iraq, god I cant turn on the tube and not hear words about NEW Iraq. Ya NEW.

You see this is how America do it. They cover up the crap, and show us all this new glossy place that's better. I don't want to even bother commenting on this, unless karma (as usual) says something stupid about it.

[Xcellsi0r]

What the hell do those have to do with mature decisions? You remember the renaissance period. Plenty of war happened then did it not. Barbaric ages. I would say.

Well, I'm taking your comment about our break throughs in history to show that we've achieved alot more than karma gives us credit for. He says that America is better than us. :imwithstu but I'm simply stating that your comment on the renaissance, struggles to enlighten our friend karma that maybe JUST maybe, Europe is a little bit more mature because we've gone through alot more when you look back in history. Hard to turn around and say no to that.

[JADezimar]

Uh huh. So Your claiming an entire country is backwards eh ? Sounds prejudice to me. Nice Anti American sentinement. Just goes to show that we have faith in New Countries and you EU's like your old countries despite the new governments.

I dont see how either are more mature than the other. Some handle things differently. But who is more mature is a matter of peoples opinions.

[Xcellsi0r]

Nah JAD, I'm not that anti-American, An anti-American post from me, would be something like this. America owes it's whole nation to Europe, mainly Spain and Britain. Because it was them who sailed to you and introduced English, technology, everything!! We continued to improve, America became a seperate unit. And now the 2 continents are seperate. America became stronger, and obviously has gone to SOME peoples heads. I'd describe that as a antii-American statement, which would be a sloppy attempt to try and prove a pointless fact that America owes everything they have to Europe. But this is only an example, and I'm not saying this, so don't qoute me!!

[JADezimar]

okie dokie. Like your sig. did you do it yourself?

[Burned]

i know u just made that statatement as an example, but i just want to point out that we didnt go further than central America.

Anyway GO SPAIN!!! :banana: :banana: :banana:

[JADezimar]

Spain was strong in its prime time. o0

[shutupandshave]

JAD - you didn't even do your sig yourself - Critta had to help you spell it... what does claymore's sig have to do with anything anyway...

"You remember the renaissance period"
No, I dont, I wasn't there.

[Karmashock]

I made a statement - you took it as condescending - that's not my fault.
There was no other way to take it. You were being snarky and said something about your nations being more 'mature' which also implies better behaved, mannered, wise, and in control of themselves.

Europe is none of these things. Your buildings are older... that's it.


Karma - perhaps though - you should consider the way you phrase comments about the rest of the world when you find it so offensive that I suggest that many European nations have been around longer than the USA... imagine if I had said something like oh... the advancement of mankind has been more because of Europe than because of America... Almost all the great art and music in the world originated from Europe, or something like that.

Then you'd be really pissed.
Not really... Europe does have a great deal of art to it's name... especially if it's between 100 and 400 years old... or from antiquity.

Of course, may other cultures could claim various levels of equality with that.


Furthermore, you seem to forget that america, as a western nation, shares that tradition. So it isn't europe so much as western civilization... which includes the US.


Does that piss you off?

I've got mr flibble on the line if you need to hold someone's hand.
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/ian.ridley3/images/flibble.gif

[JADezimar]

JAD - you didn't even do your sig yourself - Critta had to help you spell it... what does claymore's sig have to do with anything anyway...

I was not being sarcastic I was being Serious.

You remember the renaissance period"
No, I dont, I wasn't there.

Cute. Seriously cute. Im think your a hot 17 year old girl now.. Reminds me of what they use to say in highschool chit chats all the time.

[shutupandshave]

I am surprised you still took offense to it, after I clarified it so many times.

--and in the style of Karma
the fact I said that I was talking about the political side, you stupid immature childish idiot, and you didn't acknowledge that I wasn't, just shows that your arguments are desperate. You lack any kind of integrity and your mother favourite colour is yellow. Your lack of understanding for the statement "But I was talking about the age of the country," just shows that the entire of your country is full of self-obsessed know it alls, that revel at the chance to so often put people down, and are so often wrong. Perhaps you want to cry now, in which case I will provide some stupid picture to try and back up my point and belittle you {I cant actually be bothered to do this}. You have serious mental problems, and both the voices in my head are telling you that you're wrong, therefore you must be.

or in the style of JAD
URS STUPD U FGT YAY KARMA ILUVE YOU !!!!

Edit:
JAD, I find it difficult to believe you were ever at school.

[JADezimar]

You in some of your firsts posts talked about the EU Possibly making more mature political decisions in the future. Would weight your argument that you were saying so becuase the countries were more mature. In order for that to matter they would have to be more politically mature. So either Half of this thread and half your original posts were mindless BS about what the maturity meant of a nation. Or you originally did intend it to mean political maturity to support your argument of the EU being more politically mature. Its one or the other. Ya I think you have agreed there is a difference. So what was the point of half your firsts post? In supporting how the EU would be more mature?

You on your period?

[shutupandshave]

Actually, I made one post about it, and then corrected myself in the next post.

The first post I made was not worded correctly, the rest of this argument is because you're stupid.

[Karmashock]

Nah JAD, I'm not that anti-American, An anti-American post from me, would be something like this. America owes it's whole nation to Europe, mainly Spain and Britain. Because it was them who sailed to you and introduced English, technology, everything!! We continued to improve, America became a seperate unit. And now the 2 continents are seperate. America became stronger, and obviously has gone to SOME peoples heads. I'd describe that as a antii-American statement, which would be a sloppy attempt to try and prove a pointless fact that America owes everything they have to Europe. But this is only an example, and I'm not saying this, so don't qoute me!!
You forget English and Spanish brutality.

Do you know what they did to get their power? Do you want it graphic detail? The mass graves... the germ warfare... culling...

The Spaniards aren't any better... they were just after a different thing. Spain wanted gold and England had to get rid of a large portion of its pissed off population or there was going to be a revolt. So Spain went to the new world and killed people until they gave them all the gold they could carry... the English set up colonies on Indian land and shipped as many people over there as fast as they could.


What do we owe to England? We fought for our independence... We went against the greatest army in the world and won. Sure, it wasn't really fair for them... we knew the territory and we weren't playing by European rules... but we were farmers and you're kidding yourself if you think we're going to line up to get shot.

When the British captured us, we were tortured for information... or as an example... then killed. Few were spared... women and children were often victims of British brutality. Our lands were burned as they moved.


What do we owe to the British? We ARE British! But no more. We claimed what we got from them by right of blood and took the land by right of conquest. It is ours... and neither the natives nor the crown will hold dominion of this land ever again.

and the Spanish?... parasites... period.




We are friends because despite our differences we are more alike in this world then different. That is why we are better friends with the British… it is why we are better friends with Europe then most of the world… that is what keeps us together… our shared values. Without that, we would likely be enemies. The bond we have is special… don’t underestimate it… and don’t abuse it.

[JADezimar]

No YOu changed your stance from, MAturity of a nation cuase there older, to Ok well I messed up on my wording, to the difference of actual political and nations age is different. Youve changed a few times throughout the thread. Not to mention my argument changed along with yours. I just follow the thread and respond accordingly. If your still arguing and trying to confirm something you have admitted. You Are are putting words in my posts.

Gratz to the paranoid reader.

[stats]

Found a catch phrase karma =/

[Karmashock]

Found a catch phrase karma =/
eh?... you mean "tell it to mr flibble"?
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/ian.ridley3/images/flibble.gif

[shutupandshave]

JAD:
I said "But I was talking about the age of the country, not the political experience of it's inhabitants."

You replied with:
"You still claim the age of the country itself makes it politicaly more mature."

This is not adapting yourself to the argument.

It is blatantly disregarding what I just said!

Karma I find your posts saying that Spaniards are parasites extremely offensive. It is another generalisation, and it is wrong.

[JADezimar]

Then spit out the answer.

[shutupandshave]

What answer do you want me to spit out?

[JADezimar]

Pffft Gonna waste my time with that driveL of a posts? try starting with in your own posts "You replied". I thought it was pretty simple.

[stats]

eh?... you mean "tell it to mr flibble"?
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/ian.ridley3/images/flibble.gif

yes i did! btw karma - i found ur comment about the spanish spot on. But im half spanish so im going to have to say sorry to mum

[shutupandshave]

The bad English in your previous post is decipherable to me. Sorry. Please try again and I will try and answer.

[JADezimar]

Your growing unworthy, of good english. If you are not gonna put some context in your post. And stop acting dumb, I do know its an act. (I really am hoping for the sake of humanity)

[shutupandshave]

JAD, if I am growing unworthy of good English it implies that you gave me some to begin with, which is not the case.
Lets leave it?

[JADezimar]

Hmm for the sake of the english language I wont argue on its behalf. Id be a bad embassador.

Deal!

[Karmashock]

Karma I find your posts saying that Spaniards are parasites extremely offensive. It is another generalisation, and it is wrong.
I'm not talking about today... Do you need another visit by our special friend?

I'm saying that in the new world, the Spanish were parasites. The came for gold, that's all they cared about, they didn't care how many mountains of skulls they had to make to get it. Perhaps robbers, thieves, or bandits is more appropriate?

What do you call a people that come in the guise of a god and then steal an entire continent's gold?

I think parasite is descriptive and almost generous.
karma - i found ur comment about the spanish spot on. But im half spanish so im going to have to say sorry to mum

Some agree... Stats, I'm part English and I know the English in the colonial days for what they were... They killed millions. It was genocide... germ warfare... human herding... mass execution...

Under stand that the American colonists liked all that stuff though... the more natives that were dead the farther we could extend our farmland west.

I'm at peace with my demons.

The Colonists didn’t get really pissed until the Stamp act… According to the British documents, they weren’t trying to piss us off… but if you read the bill… you kind of wonder how that escaped them.

It basically said that ALL colonial paper had to be stamped with the king’s seal or otherwise be of royal stationary…

Even fucking playing cards were stamped and taxed. Ever sheet of newspaper… Ever book… every contract, ever ships log……… EVERYTHING.

So we told the crown to go fuck itself and that was the end of that.

[JADezimar]

Some jack ass aint stamping my porn.

[Karmashock]

can you imagine porn in 1770's?... fucking wood cuts...

[JADezimar]

hehe

[shutupandshave]

I'm not talking about today... Do you need another visit by our special friend?

I'm saying that in the new world, the Spanish were parasites. The came for gold, that's all they cared about, they didn't care how many mountains of skulls they had to make to get it. Perhaps robbers, thieves, or bandits is more appropriate?
Then you should have not bought the previous paragraph into the present tense.... although specifying your tense in what you said afterwards would have been fine.

I am glad you dont think that all the spanish are parasites...although they almost certainly weren't all parasites then either.

The stamping stuff:
I didn't know that, and it's was a moronic thing to do for anyone trying to stay in control of something so big, and so far away.

[Tank0]

every european country has committed warcrimes in the past .
US has had his own crimes in the past .

we are all guilty .

about the age of european countries .i am not exactly qouting facts just a quick run through ( european members feel free to correct me where i cut to many corners )

GB : except for structural changes GB hasnt changed for centuries
the netherlands : kingdom since the 16th century ,where neutral during WWI , the queen fled to canada during WWII after the war they continued goverment
Belgium : belgica from roman ages , was part of every european empire during the years , independence since 1830 , never stopped fighting during WWI , our king flooded his own country to stop the germans - western front was Flanders - WWII goverment fled king stayed - after the war we needed a "clean" king but our goverments didnt change .
France : they capitulated and where conquered 2 years afterward ( vecy 1942 ) - french general formed a liberation army - they have changed republic thrice since the french revolution ,but still the same ideals live in france since 17??
Spain : has had great empire but a dictator Franko was put in place with hitlers help - spain is a democracy since 20th century but is still a kingdom too .
italy : see spain replace franko with mussolini, they never reinstated their king
germany : was an empire during WWI - they kicked out "der keizer" afterwards - leaving vacuum for hitler - democracy since 1992 ( only DDR was democratic 1945-1991 )
Poland : well 20th centuy wasnta good time for poland - succesfull country - crushed between hitler and stalin - "liberated" by the communists - democracy since end 20th centuy .

so MVB you are partially right that Spain,france and Germany have new goverments but you forgot that Begium, the netherlands , sweden , GB AND many others havent changed .

Does this make us more mature , sadly NO . but we do have a different view on things .
some historians call WWI and WWII european civil wars ( they had so much colonies the war became a world war ) when america stepped in , world war was the only correct term .
we have experience from our colonial time and after both world wars we realise that violence only feeds violence.

karma is right when he states that we need to work together . how far apart we think we are we are still more alike .
allthough i dont like you using terms "tell it to mr flibble" , you now do the same to other members as you blamed Ummon to do to you ( i mean putting people down and taking the moral-IQ highground )

forcing believes on people is wrong but hey you have to admit they could be pushing worse things then democracy , free speech and capitalisme .
furthermore the US isnt forcing people as much as bribing them . no one puts a gun to my head to make me enter a MCdonalds or order a coke ( fyi justice i mean coca cola ) i only wished they would let us be socialistic , their communist phobia is uncalled for since the fall of communisme

when the romans invaded britain they bribed the chieftains and took their sons to Rome , when returning the ruling class realised they had little to gain from refusing the bribe . they kept their sacred spots they juist builded class A bathingrooms there .

every world empire influences the world .the majority of the americans just as most europeans wants to give the rest of the world a reason to live ( so they won t be tempted to blow themselves up for their cause )

the major difference is practical : example

war on drugs :
the US sends DEA officers to columbia , burns fields , delivers military might to fight the cartels . leaving a powervacuum and a higher demand - rising prices - raising the profitmargin - farmers with no money and no future

farmers who are starving can t give a ratass about raising illegal crops

the EU sends drugspecialists for trapping the money and fights corruption in columbia - we give the farmers information about alternative crops and set them up with somefunds

only greedy farmers will begin raising illegal crops again .

we in europe are beginning to think we are only a good ally when we agree without discussion and are willing to pay the big Euro's . The US thinks the EU has no army so they are useless .
in fact we are the 2 sides of a sharp sword but we need a balance .
EU needs better army - US needs to use its money more practical .

EU will step into the war on terror after it gets a few more "madrid" like attacks but we are slow because this has major effects on our society . we are still influenced by the world wars 60years ago : no one will want to form concetration camps , turkey and some balkan countries are islamic countries ,
5% of european citizens are muslims - the EU hasnt got the same cooperation between members as the states have in america .


Suas

GB was one off the founding members of the EU but the real beginning of the
cooperation was the Benelux ( BElgium NEtherlands LUXembourg formed a union of steel and cole trading countries just after WWII - the rest snowballed )

Jad : i am an belgian "out-sider"

sorry for my flawed english but we ll talk when you are able to write such a text in dutch ( not bad for 4 years of public school education with 100 minutes of english lessons every week )

[JADezimar]

I was making fun of my own english. Not those of outsiders -_-.

[Tank0]

ok my bad <3

[Karmashock]

Then you should have not bought the previous paragraph into the present tense.... although specifying your tense in what you said afterwards would have been fine.

I am glad you dont think that all the spanish are parasites...although they almost certainly weren't all parasites then either.
There was never any question about what I was saying.

Please, don't be so anal... you knew damn well what I meant.

The stamping stuff:
I didn't know that, and it's was a moronic thing to do for anyone trying to stay in control of something so big, and so far away.
Yep... people always bring up the boston tea party, but that was just exporters and inporters revolting... not really huge... the Stamp Act pissed off everyone.

If the English had just upped import and export taxes on all goods regardless, then they might have gotten the money they needed...

But since the british forced us to personally pay for any representatives of the crown including troops, we generally opted to not have them.

We then had the french-indian war, which is called the 6~7 years war in England. We called a few regements of british regular up... and though the french were defeated, the indians proved to be better fighters then the french... which always amuses me... all the english forts in the west fell to indian attack accept for Fort Pitt and Fort Detriot.

The british general (amherst) in Fort Pitt, deep in american territory, seiged by a large hostile force of indians... Decided to spread small pox amoungst the indians. He gave them blankets in a "gesture of friendship and peace"... The epidemic killed nearly 70 percent of those infected.

The tribes that attacked were broken... and were never a major threat again.

England tired of defending the colonies, told the colonies to stop expanding.
Ie, this land of endless farmland for all is now closed... so says the crown.

oh yea, and we need to pay for those troops you had there... so stamp act.

to which we said... No.

[Karmashock]

karma is right when he states that we need to work together . how far apart we think we are we are still more alike .
allthough i dont like you using terms "tell it to mr flibble" , you now do the same to other members as you blamed Ummon to do to you ( i mean putting people down and taking the moral-IQ highground )
Give me a break, there was no other way to stop the flames. Look at how much more peaceful the boards are?

You can't argue with the results.

i only wished they would let us be socialistic , their communist phobia is uncalled for since the fall of communisme
Do what you like, go commie though and you're no friend of ours. I'm not kidding... Go there and things will get real icy real quickly.


we in europe are beginning to think we are only a good ally when we agree without discussion and are willing to pay the big Euro's
What is Europe doing to preserve western power? Nothing.

Do something… anything… and we might respect you more.

As to why?

All international authority is based on western power. If it falls too much, then the whole international balance will be disrupted. The UN will become meaningless.

We keep telling you that... but you don't seem to get it.

Power un-used is power un-had. You have to use your power... Stop spending all your money on self-indulgent social programs and make a difference. Preserve our authority... or get some purely for yourself.

IF you don't get it, someone else will... and that could be anyone. I’d rather America or Europe have it then China or some coalition of Islamic nations.

US needs to use its money more practical
We use or money more practically then Europe does... Europe doesn't really spend much unless its on medical care or it's aging population.

It's just a fact.

the EU hasnt got the same cooperation between members as the states have in america .
Why bother with that? Just join us... we'll link you into our system, tell you what's going on, and you can help how you like.

Seriously, we'll sell you the world most advanced hardware... whatever you need... Kosovo was pathetic... when our two militaries were next to each other we though we had gone back in time... old planes from the 60s and 70s made up the bulk of European forces.

We can bring you right up to date... You can’t beat American military technology.

Fuck, if you don’t want to risk soldiers, we’ll sell you robots… seriously… we’ve been using ground based robotic scouts/ambushers since kosovo… The Pentagon just put a big contract on them so every unit will have some of these…


Matter again in the world.... or fade away.

[Tank0]

you hate it when Ummon patronizes you , use the feeling to prevent doing the same to others otherwise people will keep calling you a hypocrite



We use or money more practically then Europe does... Europe doesn't really spend much unless its on medical care or it's aging population.

It's just a fact.
karma you ve learned me alot about the US , in return i am trying to learn you some things about europe .

ESA : european space agency ,
EA : we are forming an army ( despite englands objections )
Medical technology : not as far advaced but in several things better developed then the US ( look up jansen pharmaceutica )
Weapons technology : the euro fighter , europe counterpart for GPS , french nuclear weapons , dutch nuclear submarines , english second generation harrier technology , belgian guns ( look up FN )
relief work : in new EU countries and over the entire world , belgium is trying to turn BE FAST ( Belgian First aid Support Team ) into EU FAST ( belgium donate 45million euro to tsunami areas and the people donated 38 million euro - with 10 million citizens i think this isnt a bad effort )
Food : after starving in wwII we are reluctant to free the trade on food because we want to protect our farmers - if we dont controle prices ( and it costs us almost half of our budget ) our farmers will go bancrupt and there will be no food produced in europe - if there is ever a new war with europe involded it would mean we all would be forced to surrender or starve - it s wrong that we controle food prices but we need to create security - the same is true for genetic "improved" foods , if you trust it in the US fine but dont force it down our throats
Human rights : we invest shitloads of money into countries to bribe them to respect rights : example : turkey , child soldiers in congo , women and children rights in asia .

in fact we do all things the US does except for sending troops to iraq ( yes we are in afghanistan too )



Why bother with that? Just join us... we'll link you into our system, tell you what's going on, and you can help how you like.

Seriously, we'll sell you the world most advanced hardware... whatever you need... Kosovo was pathetic... when our two militaries were next to each other we though we had gone back in time... old planes from the 60s and 70s made up the bulk of European forces.

We can bring you right up to date... You can’t beat American military technology.

Fuck, if you don’t want to risk soldiers, we’ll sell you robots… seriously… we’ve been using ground based robotic scouts/ambushers since kosovo… The Pentagon just put a big contract on them so every unit will have some of these…


Matter again in the world.... or fade away.true our forces are not the most modern forces and yet they get the job done just as good as the US . Kosovo was a political war . the main reason the european and US forces just sat there was because they didnt have enough support . when the balkan war escalated again in Kosovo they finally had enough public support to go and bomb the living daylight out of the serves.
dont forget that kosovo was just a minor part of the balkan wars who lasted most of the nineties

[Karmashock]

you hate it when Ummon patronizes you , use the feeling to prevent doing the same to others otherwise people will keep calling you a hypocrite
There is a big difference. Ummon keeps pretending to be my big brother or something... Mr Flibble is there to be so rediclious that it becomes hard for people to sustain their rage.

Mr Flibble isn't there to tell people what to do or pretend he knows more about how other people think or live.

Mr Flibble is there to listen. I think he's funny... and if can't laugh with it, then that's your problem.

He's there to make us all realize how stupid the flames are... period.

I hope this gives you some insight into exacty what he is and how he works. If he had just been what Ummon was doing, then Suas would have rejected him like I rejected Ummon... Flibble is so over the top that rejecting him just adds to the joke and makes him more effective.

Its fucking brillent.


ESA : european space agency
We work with them now and then...
EA : we are forming an army ( despite englands objections )
France makes us nervious... You don't want to get into an arms race with us.
Medical technology : not as far advaced but in several things better developed then the US ( look up jansen pharmaceutica )
Most of your medical companies left Europe when you went socialist and have been happy here ever since. Of course, there are a few moronic socialists here that think we should socialize too... they don't realize what we'd loose of course... never think htat far ahead.
Weapons technology : the euro fighter , europe counterpart for GPS , french nuclear weapons , dutch nuclear submarines , english second generation harrier technology , belgian guns ( look up FN )
The Joint Strike Fighter is the new standard for western powers. It can hover, has stealth, can go super sonic, can refuel in the air, and on top of all that... it's cheap... well... cheaper... then the F22 Raptor... which is fuck off expensive.

As to the rest, seriously... we've been putting the money and time into this... we have robotic tanks, computerized soldiers... the works.
relief work : in new EU countries and over the entire world , belgium is trying to turn BE FAST ( Belgian First aid Support Team ) into EU FAST ( belgium donate 45million euro to tsunami areas and the people donated 38 million euro - with 10 million citizens i think this isnt a bad effort )
Very good.
Food : after starving in wwII we are reluctant to free the trade on food because we want to protect our farmers - if we dont controle prices ( and it costs us almost half of our budget ) our farmers will go bancrupt and there will be no food produced in europe - if there is ever a new war with europe involded it would mean we all would be forced to surrender or starve - it s wrong that we controle food prices but we need to create security - the same is true for genetic "improved" foods , if you trust it in the US fine but dont force it down our throats
I have no problem with you controlling your prices on food. The US does it too by 'buying' excess crops and then giving them to starving nations or giving free lunches to school children.

As to gen engineered stuff... It's the future... do what you like. You're almost the last nation to give in and do it. You pay your farmers enough for them to modernize.

Human rights : we invest shitloads of money into countries to bribe them to respect rights : example : turkey , child soldiers in congo , women and children rights in asia .
Do they actually listen?...

in fact we do all things the US does except for sending troops to iraq ( yes we are in afghanistan too )
If that were teh case, then European power would be respected the world over and teh US wouldnt' have to be the big stick for the whole western world.


true our forces are not the most modern forces and yet they get the job done just as good as the US . Kosovo was a political war . the main reason the european and US forces just sat there was because they didnt have enough support . when the balkan war escalated again in Kosovo they finally had enough public support to go and bomb the living daylight out of the serves.
dont forget that kosovo was just a minor part of the balkan wars who lasted most of the nineties

I know all about it... and I'll say again... your forces are antiques.


US forces knocked out Serb anti air missiles and radar. If we hadn't done that your planes would have been knocked out of the sky by new russian missiles.

This is why your forces stayed on the ground... We cleared the way.

Modernize... You guys are rich and skilled enough to have a military that's worth a damn... it's pathetic.


I don’t say this ‘burn’ you or make you feel bad about your people. You have a lot of potential, but you need to get over this hippy pacifist bullshit.

Get a rifle and join us at the line.

[Tank0]

people do listen to europe , if they didnt they wouldnt invite us . we are a military midget but an economical superpower .


like i had to explain to some of my friends in the past there is a difference between getting respect through fear and getting respect out of friendship .

when a mate of mine enters a bar he gets a drink before he reaches the bar , people fear him and don t dare to discuss anything with him . he has respect from the peeps .

when i enter the same pub i too get a driink before i reach the bar but people give it to me out of friendship .people respect me but dare to disagree with me .
in the end my mate has it way easier to get things done from people but i manage to get help from them too . it just cost me a few pints more if i need help moving ;)

when my mate gets into trouble alone in that pub nobody helps him , some could be using the occasion to take revenge .

when i get into trouble i get backed up by at least 5 people without even asking why the trouble started . they know i dont let it escalate without az damn good reason .

We are not rising up against the US we just prefer the friendly approach , true our troops have obsolete weapons but you where incorrect about kosovo . our squadron operated from italy and took active part in the bombing , we even did bombing runs on radar systems to clear the path for english tornadoes . at this very moment belgian f16 squadrons are patroling estonian ( russian border ) airspace to cover their asses till they get a airforce themselves . would you send obsolete fighters to protect borders with the former USSR? Look up the scores for the air manouvers for belgian pilots - i accept your apologies ;)

[Karmashock]

like i had to explain to some of my friends in the past there is a difference between getting respect through fear and getting respect out of friendship .
This is something europe is going to have to figure out really really quickly.

You aren't powerful throughout the world because people like you. It nor have you ever been through friendship.

You got it through killing and threats. Through fear and intimidation.


Review your history. It wasn't that long ago. Since then, the US has been hold thing line. That doesn't mean either of us are bad people or that we should be bad to keep the power. But it does mean that we have to remind those that would challenge it how fast and how hard they can fall.




when my mate gets into trouble alone in that pub nobody helps him , some could be using the occasion to take revenge
Minus the US, who would protect Europe?

No one. Think Japan gives a fuck?... Hell the japanese are just about hte nicest non-western nation in our club and they're not going to stick their neck out for anyone. What about South America? nope... no friends there... no one that would risk thier nation for you. What about the eastern europe or russia? More likely to help beating you up really... What about the middle east? *laughs for a full minute*... Africa? Not a chance.

Your smiles mean nothing when you have hundreds of years of imperialistic oppression behind you. The whole basis for your power still rests on it even if you've neglected the foundation for nearly 80 years... and in that time, the US has kept things going by simply being there and flexing.

when i get into trouble i get backed up by at least 5 people without even asking why the trouble started . they know i dont let it escalate without az damn good reason .
Which is why you're nothing like europe.

We are not rising up against the US we just prefer the friendly approach , true our troops have obsolete weapons but you where incorrect about kosovo . our squadron operated from italy and took active part in the bombing , we even did bombing runs on radar systems to clear the path for english tornadoes
No, you didn't clear their AA out. If you really force me to go through it for you, it's going to annoy me. You don't have stealth and so you will get shot.

at this very moment belgian f16 squadrons are patroling estonian ( russian border ) airspace to cover their asses till they get a airforce themselves . would you send obsolete fighters to protect borders with the former USSR? Look up the scores for the air manouvers for belgian pilots - i accept your apologies ;)
F16?... for modern engagements? I mean, I would use them as a back up fighter, a scout, or ground suppression after the AA was taken out... but not as a vanguard force.

F-16 FIGHTING FALCON MULTI-ROLE FIGHTER AIRCRAFT, USA

The Lockheed Martin F-16 Fighting Falcon, the first of the US Air Force multi-role fighter aircraft, is the world's most prolific fighter with more than 2000 in service with the USAF and 2000 operational with 23 other countries. The F-16 and the F-15 Eagle were the world's first aircraft able to withstand higher G forces than the pilots. The Fighting Falcon entered service in 1979. Production of the F-16 is expected to continue to beyond 2010.


All I know, is that a cheap russian missile truck like this can knock damn near anything out of the sky.
http://www.army-technology.com/projects/pantsyr/images/pantsyr1.jpg

We were the counter to Russia...

Here is our newest plane...
http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/f22/images/raptor4.jpg


Every year we improve everything we have by about 3 percent... that compounds every single year... We pay for it.

Lockheed's Skunkworks also designed and built the JSF as you likely know (no point putting a picture up, it basically looks exactly like the F22)... which will become the next big fighter in the western world. The F22 is still a better dog fighter, but the JSF is more fexible and a lot cheaper... With a could dozen of those anyone should be able to take on anything but the most advanced russian hardware.

If you really need to go stealth, then it's time to use the heavies....
http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/b2/images/b2_6.jpg

I saw one at an Air Force v Navy game (Football)... The thing made ZERO noise... it just glided over the crowd... it didn't even look like it was flying... it just wafted over the field...


I respect your ability to militarize... I just don't think you're being realistic about your position in the world and think you really need to get in the game before you make it really tough for us.

[Morpheus]

Question, Karma. If US is so advanced in military, why are we keep loosing soldiers in Iraq every week? Some even to friendly fire. Judging by your words, the war should've been done in a week or two.....

Having bigger guns does not guarantee a victory - been proven many times. Instead of seeking out a conflict to prove who's best, people should work towards peace and cooperation - imagine how far would the technology be right now, if the bigger powers worked together. All I hear from you is "We're the best, we'll kick everyone's ass, we need to scare them all, we don't need to listen to anyone."

[JADezimar]

When Germany invaded half of europe, I do not remember Half of europe ever acting in any regards that were not peaceful. Just cuase you sit there trying to be people's freinds does not mean no one will never come after you.

[Karmashock]

Question, Karma. If US is so advanced in military, why are we keep loosing soldiers in Iraq every week? Some even to friendly fire. Judging by your words, the war should've been done in a week or two.....

Having bigger guns does not guarantee a victory - been proven many times. Instead of seeking out a conflict to prove who's best, people should work towards peace and cooperation - imagine how far would the technology be right now, if the bigger powers worked together. All I hear from you is "We're the best, we'll kick everyone's ass, we need to scare them all, we don't need to listen to anyone."
Morph, this stuff is designed to kill people.

If that's all we wanted to do, then we wouldn't lose ANYONE and all the iraqis would have been dead about 2 days after the war started.... all the way down to the generals shitting themselves in their bunkers.


However, your point is well taken that the US's militiary power isn't well set up to deal with anything asside from scaring the shit out of the Russians.

So... we're adapting.
http://www.pica.army.mil/PicatinnyPublic/news/images/highlights/SWORDSposter.jpg
Behold the Sword... it may look odd, but it's rather quick and can be sent ahead to get shot at in your place. It is controlled via a portable consol that that a soldier controls like you control a video game.
We have some robotic tanks too... They can go full AI if you want... but like most real world AI, they're not as good as someone standing nearby with a remote control
http://www.army-technology.com/contractor_images/general_dynamics/ofw_raas.jpg

It is the ownage.
we're doing it with planes too...
this one is an experimental combat plane... super sonic.
http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/x-45-ucav/images/X45UCAV_4.jpg
same deal with this one...
http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/x47/images/X-47Pegasus_2.jpg
This one is currently in use for survelence but it can be used to blow up tanks if you want to...
http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/predator/images/PredatorB_1.jpg


We're making our soldiers digital too... This the Army "Deta Force" Land Warrier system... you can shoot around corners and stuff...
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/landwarrior1.jpg

We also have programmable bullets that will explode at any range the soldier tells them to... we have bullets that can 'bend' their path with tiny computer controlled fins...

The list goes on... And all this stuff is cheaper then losing a soldier... so automation will actually allow us to project more people into combat and have far far fewer deaths...

The future will read
us enemies dead: x
US robots killed: x
US soldiers killed: 0

[Burned]

The Spanish Empire decided to conquer the new world to spread religion(thats what the leaders said).The ppl were blind and believed them, just like ur blinded by your leaders Karma.My only hope is that only a minority of the world thinks the way u do.

[Karmashock]

No... they were not there to spread religion. They were there to get gold. They only spread religion to make the pope happy so that he would give the Spanish a monopoly on the region. Also, religion was useful for their power... But it was a secondary concern at best. They divided the population into those that were born in Spain, those that were born of parents from Spain, those who were a mix, and those that were totally native. Depending on how far you were from Spain, the less power in the society you would have. That is a system based upon blood or race. We aren't even interested in dividing people in the first place... unless you consider those that value freedom and human dignity v those that do not. It is not racial, there is no financial incentive, and all we want is to not see tyrants sitting at every seat in the UN... it scares the shit out of us.




As to me being 'blind', what to? I have more political freedoms and a freer media then you do... You're much more likely to be brainwashed by your system just by that then I am.

Make sense.


oh yeah, and the robotic hoard will wash over you! :P

[Burned]

As to me being 'blind', what to? I have more political freedoms and a freer media then you do... You're much more likely to be brainwashed by your system just by that then I am.


*drops to the floor laughing*

political freedom in ur country and freer media? give me a break.not only ur brainwashed but ur also narrowminded. :disagree:

*is still laughing*

[Karmashock]

Prove otherwise or admit that you're just posturing.

[Morpheus]

The list goes on... And all this stuff is cheaper then losing a soldier... so automation will actually allow us to project more people into combat and have far far fewer deaths...

The future will read
us enemies dead: x
US robots killed: x
US soldiers killed: 0

Sounds alot like "Terminator"....
This can't lead to anything good. Instead of being afraid to start a war because people would die, we'll just start wars for any stupid reason(like needing more oil) - no life loss on our side.... I'd rather have our money spent on medical and environmental protection developments. Not even mentioning that becoming a super-power will give other countries more reason to unite against it.

Freedom of media - I agree that there's more of it in US. But to think that it is completely uncontrolled is being naive. You've got to understand that the media(and much of everything else in here) is controlled by money. Every big story has a potential to make alot of money, that's why you see some stories about corruption, "evil acts", etc. But it also can be used for brainwashing, just like in other countries. Only instead of politicians, businesses do that in here. One good example - from here, Washington state. We recently voted on one initiative, it would cut property taxes by making more money for the state through installation of new slot machines. Sounds like a good idea. Only thing is, the existing casinos got together and put some money in an advertisement, claiming that new machines would be put next to the schools and would attract children, potentially converting them into gamblers. People believed it, being too busy to actually read the initiative which stated that the new machines would be put into existing gambling places. This is a very mild example, there are some much more serious ones out there, which use actual news to deceive people.

[Tank0]

ESA build the lab on the spacestation - would NASA invest in an obsolete lab ???

Belgium is next to america one of the most advanced countries on the medical front . if people cant be helped here the US is the only option left .

a belgian mathgeek who worked in the US won awards for his work in encrypting last year and one of the top decrypting agents for the NSA is ....
guess.... a belgian woman .i can give numerous examples of european brains helping the US

like i said before French , German and Belgian weaponsystems are known as one of the best alternatives for US weaponsystems . 5 years behind i will give you that but we aren t trying to stop the baddies by throwing mud at them.

why is airbus winning from boeing ??? because our civilplanes pwn yours .(period)

compared to the US we have a pathetic army i ll give you that , but we invest more money in our armed forces then the US , the trouble is we are still funding 32 different armies instead of 1 bad ass one .

but just keep on believing we in europe are backward hicks who are trying to defend ourselves with pitchforks . afterall ignorance is bliss

who will protect us ?
do i really have to remind you that France and the UK have one of the most modern nuclear weapons in the world ( worse then US and russia but way better then israeli and chinese ones )

i personally know pilots who flew runs in the kosovo airwar , you can argue what you want he did bombing runs . FYI you dont need stealthplanes to attack AA , they did attack AA before the stealth era , if you fly really low and fast you can reach them too , ok its more risky but hey our pilots knew that before they volunteered for such a crappy army . And it werent only the belgians , the dutch did thrice the runs during the conflict not to mention the english and italian partners . granted the F16 arent the most modern planes in the US army but it are the only planes we got so yes we used them . they have been upgraded several times and if they were too obsolete i don t think NATO would deploy them at the russian border .

i am not saying the US isnt the most advanced military power but power is more then guns . ever seen the relic called x-wing with the gundamrobots , what you are describing sounds alot like mobile dolls . there is no such thing as war without casualities .besides any human can beat a drone once they know the weak spot . you deploy fancy robots they use millions of hungry idealists ( Korea showed the US how state of the art troops are still no match for waves of humans with a spirit to win )

if you pressure a other nuclear power they ll just lit the world - since the invention of the atombomb you can only lose a war but never really win it
american world domination - population O


btw : pritty pictures , describe plz , new weapons interest me more then this endless discussion

freeer media : i would like to doubt that murdock has his people everywhere . but since the clearance of the internet that discussion is rather obsolete .

freeer politics : ow brother please , you have 2 ( one , two ) parties . damned if you do , damned if you don t . furthermore corruption has spread to the upper part of the system ( ow i am sorry it isnt called corruption but party funding - whenever companies can give money to candidates they expect something in return )

we in belgium have a system like the american football league - every party gets the same funding from the state for elections .donations are forbidden in any way or form

you do have freeer economics and regulations but thats because you dont bother to support anything that isnt directly in you advantage ( example Kyoto , international court in the netherlands , etc )

[Karmashock]

Sounds alot like "Terminator"....
Pretty much.

The basic idea is, “if you’re going to use suicide bombers and hide behind children, then I’m going to unleash the robotic hordes on your ass”.

The enemy uses suicide bombing, hiding behind innocents, and blending in with the population to get close to us and kill us. However, if in an urban environment we can go door to door without exposing ourselves, then the terrorists are right back where they were if they had just challenged us in the desert.

We adapt. When the Soviets built an anti ballistic missile shield over Moscow in the 60s we responded by making cluster nukes. The XM Peacekeeper (Still the US’s big ICBM) has TEN independently targeted warheads that split off in high earth orbit and drop down in a cluster pattern on the intended target. This means that every US nuke fired will have 10 micro nukes that have to be individually stopped. This rendered the Soviet Anti ballistic missile shield obsolete.

Today we’re not so worried about nuclear attack as we are about retaining the ablity to engage the enemy on his own soil. As the enemy refuses to engage away from women and children we must be very specific about who we kill… and to keep our Kill(enemy)/Death(ally) ratio up we need weapons that can get close and kill one man at a time without exposing us.

Robots are the answer. We have the technology. MIT has already been contracted to work on better AI for military war machines.

This can't lead to anything good. Instead of being afraid to start a war because people would die, we'll just start wars for any stupid reason(like needing more oil) - no life loss on our side.... I'd rather have our money spent on medical and environmental protection developments.
War is eternal. There will always be war. Our power and the current world order is based upon military power… Not trade, not friendship, not brotherly love, but brute force.

That’s just the way it is. We didn’t make it this way, we inherited the system and recognize it for what it is.

Freedom of media - I agree that there's more of it in US.
of course.

Only thing is, the existing casinos got together and put some money in an advertisement, claiming that new machines would be put next to the schools and would attract children, potentially converting them into gamblers. People believed it, being too busy to actually read the initiative, which stated that the new machines would be put into existing gambling places. This is a very mild example, there are some much more serious ones out there, which use actual news to deceive people.
That’s just the opposition using THEIR right to express their political message. There is nothing unfree about that. Freedom doesn’t say anything about people being smart enough to use it. In fact, it says more about them being on their fucking own.

In California, we had a similar situation. We’re trying to squeeze the Indian Casinos because they make bank and don’t pay a dime in state taxes. We had one proposition put forth by Arnold that would squeeze them and one put forth by the Indian casinos that would let them do whatever they wanted. The Indian one looked almost exactly like the other one… anyway, I think neither passed… But the one to squeeze them got a lot of votes and the Indian one got basically none.


In my state both sides were heard and the people made a decision… very few were confused.

[Karmashock]

ESA build the lab on the spacestation - would NASA invest in an obsolete lab ???
Yeah they probably would… Nasa sucks.

Belgium is next to america one of the most advanced countries on the medical front . if people cant be helped here the US is the only option left .
When most Americans think of socialized medicine they think of Canada… you might not know this but Canadian medicine blows… they’re actively telling people more advanced treatments don’t exist because they don’t want to pay for them.

By the way, the EU recently asked for the power to restrict information about treatments that they didn’t want to pay for too… it was defeated though…

Just be aware that socialism has no incentive to give you great care… just to pacify you.

i can give numerous examples of european brains helping the US
Yep, it was such a problem for European countries that they asked the US to make it hard for European citizens to immigrate to the US… we agreed because we’re morons and now we take in no education migrants more then anything… about a million a year.

like i said before French , German and Belgian weaponsystems are known as one of the best alternatives for US weaponsystems.
Actually, Russian tech is superior to either German or Belgian tech when it comes to military hardware. Maybe you have nice rifles or something, but your tanks, fighters, and missiles aren’t worth thinking about.

why is airbus winning from boeing ??? because our civilplanes pwn yours .(period)
This isn’t true. Airbus planes are no better then Boeing planes and Airbus is HEAVILY subsidized by the European governments. That means that they’re selling planes benieth the cost of making them.

Either way, the profit margin in commercial airplanes has shrunk quite a bit… back in the old days we could get 15 to 30 percent profit off of every plane… Today you’re lucky to get 2 percent…

The French are kind of infamous of cornering markets of decreasing return. American companies generally don’t make things that anyone can make. We generally don’t make TVs for instance. The profit margin is too low. So, boeing is transitioning into a weapons contractor as commercial airline construction becomes something better done by subsidized EU industry or cheap sweatshop Chinese labor.

These are simply the facts. Saying that any European country can match the US in aerospace is retarded. We built the SR71 in the 50s and the stealth fighter in the 70s.

We are unrivaled. This was the one field that the soviets couldn’t even pretend to keep up with us on… they tried to counter with really good surface to air missiles… but that’s what the stealth planes are all about.

the trouble is we are still funding 32 different armies instead of 1 bad ass one .
Nope… we have a larger per captia economy then you and we put about 4~5 percent of our GDP into our military. Europeans only put about 1~3 percent of their GDP into the military…

If it were just a scale issue, then your 32 militaries if added together should equal or exceed the US. But they don’t. I know that military research is very expensive and it’s easier if you combine your efforts… But that doesn’t explain the troop strength, tank strength, fighter strength, or naval strength.

The US has 12 aircraft carriers… how many does Europe have? Furthermore, ours are huge ships that can throw larger heavier planes into the sky. All the European aircraft carriers I have seen are small and can only take harriers… and the harrier is a joke against anyone with AA.

but just keep on believing we in europe are backward hicks who are trying to defend ourselves with pitchforks . afterall ignorance is bliss
You aren’t hicks… but you are primitive in this field and ill ill equip.

who will protect us ?
do i really have to remind you that France and the UK have one of the most modern nuclear weapons in the world
That will protect you from direct invasion… but that won’t stop you from becoming irrelevant in world affairs. Furthermore, are they cluster nukes? Because if not, there has been effective ABM against single warhead nukes since the 60s.

I didn’t ask if you had nukes. I asked who would defend you? You say you’re about friendship, but you have no friends.
FYI you dont need stealthplanes to attack AA , they did attack AA before the stealth era , if you fly really low and fast you can reach them too , ok its more risky but hey our pilots knew that before they volunteered for such a crappy army
Modern AA can’t be countered if you have a radar signature the size of a house.

You underestimate Russian technology. They have EXCELLENT missiles… furthermore, if you fly low, they you’re going to get hit by flak… even in kosovo.

During that war, we blew up a lot of AA. After we took that out, anything could mop up the rest… biplanes would be safe.

you deploy fancy robots they use millions of hungry idealists
The robots aren’t deployed alone. They will be ‘with’ our troops. Worst case, if they shoot at the robot, then we know exactly where they are… Ambushing US troops will mean only breaking a few robots in the future. The unmanned fighter planes that I posted aren’t designed to be flown far from human control. In fact, they’d likely fly formation with our current fighters. Imagine those things escorting a wing of F22-Raptors… The Raptor is our next generation dog fighter. To lock on to the enemy, the pilot has only to look at the target, and the plane can do turns harder then any other plane in the sky. There is no way that any current or planned fighter could get behind a skilled US pilot… and because all the pilot has to do is ‘look’ at the target… well… the enemy won’t last.


Imagine every wing of fighters being accompanied by a wing of super sonic fighter drones. Perhaps they’d run on AI or maybe they’d be run by control plane a few miles away (basically a big converted military cargo plane with computer consoles).


( Korea showed the US how state of the art troops are still no match for waves of humans with a spirit to win )
This makes no sense. I can only imagine that you don’t know much about that war. We were fighting both the Chinese and Russian military in that war. We went in assuming we’d have air superiority and suddenly there were Russian jet fighters all over the place… the Russian painted Chinese flags on the sides of their planes and usually maintained radio silence… but when they got excited or scared they’d break radio silence and start screaming in Russian.


Had it not been for Russian and Chinese support, we would have taken all of Korea.

And no one would have to suffer the evil of North Korea… yeah, I said evil.

if you pressure a other nuclear power they ll just lit the world - since the invention of the atombomb you can only lose a war but never really win it
We’re working on effective ABM… give us time. Until then, we’ll just clean up the areas that don’t possess that threat.

Also, know that ‘American domination’ would leave the world more or less as it is… only friendlier. If you value freedom and think everyone has that right… they why support the tyrants?

btw : pritty pictures , describe plz , new weapons interest me more then this endless discussion
What interests you?

The US is going robotic and digital. All of our new stuff is either AI controlled or otherwise robotic in nature. The only exception would be the F-22 raptor, which is assumed to be the last US manned fighter… the next generation will be unmanned… perhaps a pilot controlling it somewhere else… but the plane wouldn’t contain a person.
(continued :drool: )

[Karmashock]

freeer media : i would like to doubt that murdock has his people everywhere . but since the clearance of the internet that discussion is rather obsolete .
Rupert isn’t doing anything that freedom has to worry about…

Before him, US media was more centralized then it is now. The only thing he’s done is make a network that has distinct voice… the old networks all sounded the same and were quite biased to the left.

freeer politics : ow brother please , you have 2 ( one , two ) parties . damned if you do , damned if you don t . furthermore corruption has spread to the upper part of the system ( ow i am sorry it isnt called corruption but party funding - whenever companies can give money to candidates they expect something in return )
There is more competition between our two parties then there is between all of the parties of most European countries.

Furthermore, our free speech alone, political or otherwise dwarfs yours.

The corruption of the US system is in two things.

One, gerrymandering (yes, it is a word… look it up): you draw the lines around the people that will vote for you in 2 years and your opposition does this too… this way both sides are guaranteed to win.

Two, incumbents don’t go through party primaries. So if people don’t like the person in power, they have to vote for the opposition to get rid of him. Ideally, both parties should get an opportunity to choose someone else to represent them every election.


we in belgium have a system like the american football league - every party gets the same funding from the state for elections .donations are forbidden in any way or form
Politics isn’t a game and donations are a form of speech :)
Most of the interests balance out. The union raises money… the factory counters… it works out in the end. People that have no interests are ignored. Peta gets no air time.

you do have freeer economics and regulations but thats because you dont bother to support anything that isnt directly in you advantage ( example Kyoto , international court in the netherlands , etc )
WAIT A MINUTE!

FIRST, Kyoto is bullshit. I wouldn’t help the environment much and it would devastate our economy. You’ve got to be fucking kidding me.

Second, who elects the ‘international’ court? Who the fuck are these guys? I’m not submitting to some stupid court that I didn’t have any control over. Are you insane?

These fools considered bringing the US up on war crimes over Iraq for Christ sake.

Any organization that is that confused isn’t being given any authority from me.

NONE. It is against the principles of this nation.

It’s stuff like this that makes Americans very very wary about the UN.





We smell tyranny…. And we kill tyrants…. One bullet to the brain and two to the heart.

Something you should think about... In 1960, American support for the UN was at 80%. Today it's at 25%... The Japanese feel more or less the same way about the Chinese as the US does about the UN. Look at our bill of rights... our declaration of independence... the first few portions of our consitution... Then look at the UN. It's not a friend.

Love and Peace, Karmashock.

[shutupandshave]

There is a big difference. Ummon keeps pretending to be my big brother or something... Mr Flibble is there to be so rediclious that it becomes hard for people to sustain their rage.

Mr Flibble isn't there to tell people what to do or pretend he knows more about how other people think or live.

Mr Flibble is there to listen. I think he's funny... and if can't laugh with it, then that's your problem.

He's there to make us all realize how stupid the flames are... period.

I hope this gives you some insight into exacty what he is and how he works. If he had just been what Ummon was doing, then Suas would have rejected him like I rejected Ummon... Flibble is so over the top that rejecting him just adds to the joke and makes him more effective.

Its fucking brillent.
Actually, he pisses me off greatly, but I chose not to bring it up, as it would only give you more reason to flame.

[laserflip]

yea karma is always right with this kind of crap. fuck the UN, they are a bunch of pussies and only hold us back. weak countries jealous and wanting a piece of the pie, is all it is really.

[Karmashock]

Actually, he pisses me off greatly, but I chose not to bring it up, as it would only give you more reason to flame.
Dude, don't even start with your nonsense. You flamed me no end and I just kept responding iwth nothing more then flibble till you stopped.

Anyone can see that.


Anyway, you've angered Mr Flibble... and Mr Flibble says "DIE!"
http://www.planetquake.com/frib/gameover.wav
http://www.planetquake.com/frib/fribs2.jpg

===================================

yea karma is always right with this kind of crap. fuck the UN, they are a bunch of pussies and only hold us back. weak countries jealous and wanting a piece of the pie, is all it is really.

Worse then that, they're tyrannical. They're trying to control the world. They have no right to rule.

The were not elected.

They do not respect human rights.

They do not respect individual rights.

They do not respect personal property.

They do not respect the individual's right to self defense.


They do little more then try to control things on pretense and have no legitimate authority to do so.


The very nature of the UN is against the principles of this country. It was never designed to further freedom. It is there to clamp down on the independence of all nations so that they can't act.





Things the UN claims to do that would happen anyway:

Diplomacy - happened before, will happen after.

Foreign aid - Most aid the UN takes credit for isn't theirs but came from other nations or organizations. This aid would happen either way.

Furthers global understanding - If anything they hurt it by giving so many dictators a place to air their tyrannical bs.


Again, in the 60s the US had 80 percent plus support for the UN and today has less then 30 percent. Americans realize that the UN is not there to look out for them or for humanity. It is there to get power and control people.


We need to destroy it.... I'm not kidding. The UN and the World court need to go. These people are not accountable to anyone and claim authority over all.


The US should pull out and suggest that it's friends do so as well. Most diplomacy happens behind closed doors and would therefore happen with or without the UN. It is without noble purpose.


Kill the UN. :thumbdown

[Tank0]

my kid has worn me down today so i only have limited time left for this so ill be brief .


we have no friends ?

hmm seriously doubt it .... US , Japan , Russia , China etc

in fact we have to much friends we are reluctant to choose ( europe is like the hippie that comes in and mentions " can t we all just get along )

====

airbus has had subsidies in the past but havent got any since the US complained . but the quality of the airplanes is better too ( fly by wire , look it up )

====
true politics aren ' t a game but if a wealthy person donates he can have a bigger impact on things then his ONE(1) vote that was given to him ( yes your founding fathers where geniuses ) . if he wants to force his opinion on people he should run an independent add campagne

====

Kyoto i full off crap but hey atleast its a start , from there you can make it more perfect but not contributing what so ever won t help neither .US is the only world leader , lead by example , ever heard of it ?????

====

yeah yeah NASA sux anything but admitting EU has toptech too . pathetic dude .

====

why are you so opposed to affordable healthcare , lesser waitingtimes , lesser medicine costs and good care for senior citizens ?????

even if you worked your entire life you can end up on the streets with no where to go just because your son got cancer , if thats the land of the free then let me be proud to live in a socialist state

====

true , i did some research israeli and russian tanks are better but weaponsystems are also radar and ecm systems , hud displays,bullets,mines and guns .

====

i am well aware of airial combat but i stand by my stance Belgian pilots did bombing runs and no pretty picture can convince me my mate is a liar

====

as you may know belgian troops where right beside US troops in korea . they had a job till 52 degree but went to the chinese border to unite korea again .
true the russian entered covert but the loss of aircontrole didnt push you back but the million chinese soldiers and the cold weather did . ask marines who fought all night against those waves .

=====

i am not with the dictators , in fact i am for freedom , thats why i ask you .

Who died and gave the US the RIGHT to controle the world ????????????

i am as much opposed to US domination as i was against USSR domination during the cold war .

ill give you this , down with the UN :nono:

as long as every nuclear power has a veto nothing will ever happen .

but if you really want a institute that represents the entire world you yanks will have to admit that you will sometimes have to comply with the majority too .

you use the UN if it fits US interests but if it takes sides against israel or another ally you just ignore it .

and so does every power.

UN without military power is useless , but we dont want to make the US , russia and china nervous by forming a world army

[Karmashock]

my kid has worn me down today so i only have limited time left for this so ill be brief .


we have no friends ?

hmm seriously doubt it .... US , Japan , Russia , China etc
Those aren't friends. They're associates. They do business with you.


The US would die to protect Europe... we would go to full blow thermonuclear war for you.

Name another nation on earth that would go that far... even if they don't have nukes. Just name a nation that cares that much whether you live or die.



Europe has many fair weather friends. People that will smile so long as nothing is expected of them.

The US didn't have to help england during WWI or the allies during WWII. We could have totally blown you off.

We wouldn't have liked the shape of the world. Nazism and communism offends us. However, the US would have had no problems in securing peace for hundreds of years with those powers if it cared nothing for the rest of the world.

in fact we have to much friends we are reluctant to choose ( europe is like the hippie that comes in and mentions " can t we all just get along )
And like most hippies, you aren't repected behind closed doors.


When the chips are down, who do you have? Who cares about you? Most don't give a shit. We do care. We share most of the same values. We're of western culture.

Spurning us when we do so much and would do so much is deeply insulting when you have basically no one on earth that has or would do as much for you.


airbus has had subsidies in the past but havent got any since the US complained . but the quality of the airplanes is better too ( fly by wire , look it up
We invented that.

WAKE UP! The only boeing planes that aren't as good are really old ones.


And you're still being subsidized. I read something recent about that.


true politics aren ' t a game but if a wealthy person donates he can have a bigger impact on things then his ONE(1) vote that was given to him ( yes your founding fathers where geniuses ) . if he wants to force his opinion on people he should run an independent add campagne
I don't know if you care, but in the last few elections, the Democrats have been the ones that have depended on bilionares to keep going.

Moveon.org is funded by a dem billionare.


Kyoto i full off crap but hey atleast its a start , from there you can make it more perfect but not contributing what so ever won t help neither .US is the only world leader , lead by example , ever heard of it ?????
No, it's just bad.

Kyoto would have to be 10~30 times stronger to have ANY impact on the weather... and at it's current level it would cripple us.


It is better to preserve our economy and find other other means. Worst case, we'll have more money for disaster relief.


Furthermore, the science behind all the climate change stuff is EXTREMELY shaky.


If you'd like I can show you.


yeah yeah NASA sux anything but admitting EU has toptech too . pathetic dude
citing the international space station isn't a good way to make an argument then. We let the russians build a few parts of it and they keep falling appart. We think we might have to abandon the station because their shit keeps failing.

why are you so opposed to affordable healthcare , lesser waitingtimes , lesser medicine costs and good care for senior citizens ?????
Because it doesn't inspire new medicine or great treatment. Socialism = mediocrity.

When I go to get treatment, I want it to be the best and to get it now.

Treatment in socialist systems not only is often primative but also requires a longer wait time.


====

true , i did some research israeli and russian tanks are better but weaponsystems are also radar and ecm systems , hud displays,bullets,mines and guns .
Bells and whistles. You have no substaincal war industry.

====

i am well aware of airial combat but i stand by my stance Belgian pilots did bombing runs and no pretty picture can convince me my mate is a liar
I never siad you didn't do bombing runs.

I'm saying you didn't do bombing runs when russian AA missiles were active. You'd die in an F16. The way we deal with them if we don't have stealth plains is lots and lots of cruise missiles with spy planes citing targets.


as you may know belgian troops where right beside US troops in korea . they had a job till 52 degree but went to the chinese border to unite korea again .
true the russian entered covert but the loss of aircontrole didnt push you back but the million chinese soldiers and the cold weather did . ask marines who fought all night against those waves
We would have killed them all with heavy bombers if not for the migs.

i am not with the dictators , in fact i am for freedom , thats why i ask you .

Who died and gave the US the RIGHT to controle the world ????????????
We aren't controlling it, we're preventing anyone else from controlling it.

i am as much opposed to US domination as i was against USSR domination during the cold war .
Disgusting. I can't believe you're comparing us.





but if you really want a institute that represents the entire world you yanks will have to admit that you will sometimes have to comply with the majority too .
I refuse to recognize tyrants. Or to have foriegn nations dictate our domestic policy.


UN without military power is useless , but we dont want to make the US , russia and china nervous by forming a world army
pfft... NATO was a world army.

It needs to be remade though... lots of useless nations are members.

[Morpheus]

That’s just the opposition using THEIR right to express their political message. There is nothing unfree about that. Freedom doesn’t say anything about people being smart enough to use it. In fact, it says more about them being on their fucking own.


You missed the point that they flat out lied to people in their political message. The supporters did not have enough money to counteract that attack on the similar level. Like I said, money talks in here, true freedom has very little to do with media in here.

[Xcellsi0r]

Minus the US, who would protect Europe?

No one. Think Japan gives a fuck?... Hell the japanese are just about hte nicest non-western nation in our club and they're not going to stick their neck out for anyone. What about South America? nope... no friends there... no one that would risk thier nation for you. What about the eastern europe or russia? More likely to help beating you up really... What about the middle east? *laughs for a full minute*... Africa? Not a chance.



Karma, you still look at this as a computer game, which is really childish. This is NOT a boardgame like RISK, or a computer game like, TOTAL WAR, you seem to think, everyone has a knife to the next persons neck. What are you like, are you so insecure that you're paranoid that the country next to you is going to invade and take over and destroy you little life.

You also said earlier that the EU don't do anything with our money, as an example of how the money goes to use other than MILITARY, our economy is booming. As a matter of fact, US is 4th wealthies economy in the world. Luxembourg, (Europe) is the wealthiest. Ireland (Europe) with only a population of 3.5 million, (roughly) are 3rd wealthiest counrty in the world, more so than America, why? because, economically, our country has $41'500 per head. comparing to America's $40'000. Now, this shows how our money is working for us. All your money goes to your little game of RISK, buying new pieces for the board that doesn't really exist.

"I'm Karma, if Canada were a threat, they'd be dead cause we'd drop the big American hammer on them. If china decided to do anything, the great America would destroy them!! If ANYONE try and threaten us, we'll kill them! And while we're at it, we'll democratise their country, we shall "free" them. Of course it's out of the good of our heart of course."

JESUS CHRIST KARMA, that's what you sound like, and it's pathetic. I'd say that president of yours, BUSH thinks the same as yourself Karma, which frankly, scares the hell out of me! Being, Irish, I'd be fuckin' embarressed if my president couldn't pronounce the name of a prison that belonged to us, OR didn't know the name of a leader in a foreign country. Although, in your war-torn yet war-loving mind Karma, this must be completely pointless to you, because in your eyes you look at Bush and say, "Hey, it doesn't matter if he can't talk, he could still crush you like a little bug". Is that what the world is to you Karma, a bunch of smaller countries, obeying the every word that comes from America.

QUESTIONS TO KARMA?? ?? ?? ?? ?? please answer for me.

1. Do you think that America is better than the rest of the world??

2. Do you think that the guy with the bigger gun is better and that America will take over the world and make it a better place for us all??

3. Why do you think that countries will randomly invade you??

4. Why do you look down on Europe, even though some parts are wealthier than the US??

5. Do you think that nukes should be used by America ever??

6. Are you embarressed that your president says things more stupid than my 10 year old brother??

and finally, 7. Do you think that you're offencesive to the Europeans and every other person who is not American??

I look forward to the hole you dig by answering these questions, that's if you bother to. Don't worry, I'll know why you didn't bother if you don't!!

[Xcellsi0r]

I refuse to recognize tyrants. Or to have foriegn nations dictate our domestic policy.


Strange, this is how the people you are invading think of you! Only difference is that, they're trying to. I'm not saying that I disagree with what you are TRYING to do. I'm just saying, don't be a hypocrit and say that you'd hate things to be done to you, things that you are presently doing.

[Karmashock]

You missed the point that they flat out lied to people in their political message. The supporters did not have enough money to counteract that attack on the similar level. Like I said, money talks in here, true freedom has very little to do with media in here.
Who says a political message has to be true?

It's freedom of speech.

Furthermore, I can only point to california. The money is against us and we keep cluster fucking the opposition. If this state weren't gerrymandered we might actually have a chance to take a few seats.

[Xcellsi0r]

Why don't you ever directly respond to my posts Karmashock, I never see you answer them straight. Is there any reason?

[Burned]

He problably thinks ur a freaking communist and want to murder him.

Karma, plz answer those questions, were all looking forward to it

[Karmashock]

Why don't you ever directly respond to my posts Karmashock, I never see you answer them straight. Is there any reason?
Because you were spewing hate and being disrespectful.


Ask again and this time respect the discussion. Otherwise, I'll ignore you.
He problably thinks ur a freaking communist and want to murder him.
Nope, I just didn't feel like responding to him when he was making such an ass of himself.

[Xcellsi0r]

Listen, the only person being disrespectful is you by not replying, there has not been hatred behind my words. I am not anti-American, I just feel that your opinions are severely different to mine. Now stop avoiding my questions and always finding an excuse to do so. They are fair questions, none of which are offensive to anyone. I also don't believe I'm making an ass of myself. And it is you that disrespect me. You've ignored me on nearly every case. That's disrespect. Now please, respond properly,

[Karmashock]

Claymore, you're not listening.


Either threat this discussion with respect or you will be excluded from it.


It's very easy. Just ask your questions and be a gentlemen. I don't have to respond to you or take anything you say seriously... and until you behave, i won't.

Love and peace, Karmashock.

[Xcellsi0r]

Fine, ignore me Karmashock. I'll just assume that you're unable to answer my questions without contradicting yourself or digging a hole for yourself. All my posts were directed to you for reponse. You never replied to the majority of them or respected me enough to even mention there existence. I'll allow other people to make their own decision on why you refused to reply to my questions. Don't talk to me about disrespect. Very few of my posts were aggressive. The last few have had little or none of it. You're using an invalid reason that clouds peoples judgment for me to avoid facing my questions. I only hope that other people see the truth other than your description of it.

[Karmashock]

I've answered better then you in this thread alone so anyone knows it isn't because I'm unable to answer you.

I think you're being a snotty little punk right now and don't feel any reason why I should give you the time of day.


Come back when you feel like actually talking instead of acting like a retard...

Then I'll bother to acknowledge your questions.

[Xcellsi0r]

Don't bother!

[Karmashock]

If you can't be bothered to respect the discussion, then no one else can be expected to take you seriously.


So, until then... good bye. ;)

[shutupandshave]

Karma, by using your picture when I had said what I had said, you now invalidate this statement you made.

I hope this gives you some insight into exacty what he is and how he works. If he had just been what Ummon was doing, then Suas would have rejected him like I rejected Ummon... Flibble is so over the top that rejecting him just adds to the joke and makes him more effective.

So yes, he is doing just what Ummon is doing.

Of course, you're too stupid to realise this.


The UN are tyrants now? This sounds like the US = fascist....

At least I was wise enough to say that the US appeared to have some elements of what could potentially turn into Fascism...

Karma says the UN are tyrants...


LOL.


You fucking retard.

[Burned]

Claymore, we all know why he aint answering them.The only one making an ass of himself is u Karma, ur disrespectfull to everyone that disagrees with u.And when ur about to get pwnd, u give stupid excuses which none believes.sad :disagree: :disagree: :loser: :loser:

[Karmashock]

You're all too angry and devoid of any will to have a discussion about anything to be respected.

Have a point about anything... make a case... do anything beside make these sad attempts at flames.


Otherwise, you're all jokes.

And flibble is the only one that will listen.
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/ian.ridley3/images/flibble.gif

[Xcellsi0r]

I don't give a crap anymore, I'm just rightfully assuming that you're full of crap. You can't back your statmments up with justifications to questions on YOUR comments. It's no attempt to Flame, you're just again, finding ways of squirming out of your hole that you dug. To be honest, other people DO notice you avoiding these questions and that is enough for me. And in response to YOUR comment on why my topics should have a point, they do.........they question your motives and morales. That's the point. I don't care if you don't answer. By not answering you're giving me a satisfactory response. Thanks Karma

[Karmashock]

Ask your questions like a human being instead of a mental patient and I'll respond.

Otherwise, I'll just wait for you take your meds. It's real easy to get me to respect you. All you have to do is ask your questions without foaming all over me like a rabid dog.

Love and peace, Karmashock.

[shutupandshave]

Another great point Karma.

People dont flame you, they just treat you the same way you treat them... if that encompasses flaming, then you have only yourself to blame. You're a sad pathetic man Karma.

Edit: yes claymore, Karma is well known on these boards for avoiding questions, changing the subject when he's losing, lying and flaming. He pretends it everyone else, but it's him. When he's not around, the discussion on these boards is excellent.

Claymore, I suggest you remind him, as I do (and especially where his picture is involved) of a quote he made on the previous TLSC boards.

"You can always tell the person that is just fresh out of ideas by their degeneration into childish remarks and defamation..."

Looks like Karma is fresh out of ideas...again.

[Ummon]

I do not TAKE the moral-IQ high ground. I just HAVE it! :dur:

Sorry, but with all this nonsense I really couldn't resist. Of course, it's only a joke.

[shutupandshave]

And on that note.... back on topic?

[Ummon]

Yeah why not.

[shutupandshave]

Does anyone know the statistics for the world fundraising effort?

[Tank0]

nope but i know some results i can share


belgium gov : 45 million euro
telethon belgium : 38 million euro
deaths belgium : +- 80
military volunteers are there

telethon the netherlands : 112 million euro

German gov : 500 million euro

donations from goverments remain to be seen but telethon is allready been paid out

[shutupandshave]

Last I heard the initial damages were estimated at about 7billion.

[Xcellsi0r]

The only person aggrivating the situation is you Karma, I'm not sending angry posts here, clearly. You're just frustrating to talk to cause you turn around and claim a completely crazy idea like I'm this mental patient that foams by the mouth when argueing with Karma. Man, this is ridiculous. You're a nutcase. This is NOT flaming. Man, I'd be kicked out of here if I flamed cause I'd create frickin' new words. So no Karma, I have not flamed. You'd know it as clear as day if I was. Now stop being an idiot.

[shutupandshave]

I wonder if Karma will stop talking shit if enough people put him on ignore - I know quite a few people have him there already, so they cant see anything he posts.