Question to all you peeps in the USA

[allied56]

After reading many threads and just from my general knowledge i get the feeling that all you people that live in the USA fucking hate it. How can you hate your home country so much, and more importantly WHY!??!?

[ilia]

How can you hate your home country so much, and more importantly WHY!??!?

Try living in Israel for a 10 years. You would start hating it as well.

Thing is that everyone's life needs a temporary change in style from time to time. Most of us who arent millioneres and thus cant afford a vacation abroad every month, suffer from the routine style of life our society forces on us every day, hour, minute.

[laserflip]

i hate USA because it is the biggest hypocrasy ever. it claims to be so damn free, and it isnt and we have no rights. you wouldnt understand. i would like it MUCH better if they said "it isnt a free country at ALL, but its a tad bit better than the others and thats the best you are going to get". i respect honesty.

[allied56]

ok this makes no sense i always understood USA to be free. I bet you guys dont wear uniform to public school. I do in UK and that is a degree on freedom

[Juggalo]

No, we don't have to wear uniforms in public school. I personal don't hate the US. Living in the US can be fucking annoying at times. Especcialy the racist people.

3 things I like about the US:

1)Guns
2)football(the better one.:ass:)
3)food

3 things I hate:

1)GWB
2)Arnold Schwartanegger(I know, I can't spell his last name, But who can?)
3)John Kerry(CAN YOU BE ANY MORE SPECIFIC!?)

[Outrageous Cheek]

Because the government is to 'F'ed up.

The founders wanted FREEDOM not DEMOCRACY. But now its all democracy.

The founders had good intent, but the politics today to don't care about where our country is going, or what happens to their decendents...ONLY about themselves and how much more power they can get for themselves.


Law making is another issue. Do you know that the lawmakers pass laws, that they haven't even READ?!?!

(I'm reading this book called 'Whatever happend to Justice?' and in the book the auther tells a story where his friend (The friend may have been a law maker...not sure) proposed to the legislature that they make a law stating that they must FIRST READ the law before they put it into action...He was rejected.)

We do not have freedom of the press. Only permission to publish.
We have no freedom of speech. Only permission to speak.
Whatever free trade we have left is only permission to trade.

Permissions can be revoked any time the power holders decide to revoke them. Majority rule.

[The Dark Messenger]

I'm in the UK, but I don't particularly like that or the USA if that counts :)

It's the political status quo and pseudofreedom in each that I hate - especially America's. Patriot Act. George Bush vs. John Kerry (lose both ways) or Tony Blair vs. Mike Howard (lose both ways). There's other stuff, but I can't think too clearly at the moment. It's 0030 hours, and I got Freebird roaring in the background :)

[MVB]

Dubya Tee Eff???

I love the USA. I've visited several European countries, and didn't love them nearly as much. No place is perfect, no doubt, and I've been a victim of crime and what-not, but I love this nation.

9/10 people I know love it as well. Most US citizens who hate the US happen to be immensely unsuccessful people in SOME WAY at life (either depressed, poor, whatever), and instead of going "ok I have problems I need to fix" they blame everyone else, starting with their country/government. This doesn't mean they hate their government or their country; it means they're displacing pent-up emotional issues.

[Tigre]

Ask the 4 million plus immigrants a year who apply for some form of citizenship what they think of the USA!!! Ask them why they left their country to start at the very bottom of the ladder of society to live here how they feel about the USA!! Ask them what kind of freedom they had in their old country!!

I have 0 tolerance for people who complain about life here in the USA. If you don't like what is happening outside of your own miserable life then VOTE! Run for office, join school boards, vote in local elections or better yet run for local government, get the fuck out of the house and volunteer for a good cause! Get a fuckin job, pay taxes so we have better schools, roads, sewers, bridges, electricity, dams, water and irrigation etc.... Life in America is what we make it! GET TO WORK DAMMIT!!

[Justice]

We love America.

We just don't like some things in America in general.

cheers, and
-=</|awesomeparty|\>=-

[tom]

I dislike the politics of the government, but love the way of life me and most people in the USA enjoy, compared with that of other countries.

Laser, you say you aren't free? Try just about any other country on the planet and see how free you truly are. Besides, more freedom comes with age.

[Karmashock]

the only people that hate the US are the pathetic weenies that are still pissed that they didn't get their way in the last two elections... bitches all. :D

The US rules... of course, I live in So Cal... I'm sure living in vermont sucks... ;)

[Shackled Phoenix]

It's hard to say really, I love alotta things about the USA and there's quite a bit I hate. Rather than directly hate the USA, I just acknowledge the problems it does have. I also believe that the USA is heading more and more down the wrong path, whether it be bush OR kerry that had been elected.

[/<yle]

Its a love-hate relationship. I hate 7/10 californians, but i love california. Just like the British HATE the french, but love france.

[Karmashock]

The only thing that bothers me is that we've accepted so many responsibilities... sure, it's for the best... but no one sees that because we take on the job before it becomes obvious to everyone that there is no other choice.

That is to say... we should let things go to hell a bit more before we come in and fix them.

That or tell teh whole world to go fuck itself and reestablish isolationism... there will be some pretty bad wars if we do that all over the world... but we'll be spared them... at least for a generation... if it goes badily then we'll be really screwed...

Anyway... Love and Peace with firm resolve and a ready blade, Karmashock.

[DJTheBaron]

isnt this a thread for the politicial forum?

[Karmashock]

only if you want it to be...

[Outrageous Cheek]

We love America.

We just don't like some things in America in general.

cheers, and
-=</|awesomeparty|\>=-

Yeah. What I mean't.

[LardGibs]

There are several subtle things that are wrong in the USA that make it very difficult for middle/lower class people to have a good quality of life and positive outlook. Certainly these are mounting.

It's an issue of perspective, the USA is clearly in decline. The question is whether or not decadent fat hypertensive baby boomers have the nutsac to arrest the decline or whether or not they saddle Gen X, Y, etc with the task.

My modest proposal is that for every law they pass, two must be taken off the books. It puts a self-repair principle into the goverment. I have many other radical? ideas of a similar bent but maybe we should start another thread for that.

[CELTIC_2X]

god some of u guys are whinpy little bitchs, u live i the best contry in the world, u get all the stuff all these poor contrys want, hence wat tigre said, u guys dont no ur fucking born, complaining aboot the USA, little things piss u off aye?, well just shut up and put up with it, b/c everytime u complane ur disrespecting all the ppl over the world who would kill to live were u are,

i am very lucky to live in such a nice safe place and as jersey, and i no wat a priliage i hav being able live freely and safely.

and jugy boy there needs a fucking kicking our football is far better than urs, and guns are for whimps.

[MVB]

It's tough and I think inaccurate to view the US in decline; air-carrying "intellectuals" have claimed as much for 150 years, and been wrong consistently.

American Football > Soccer, this was already established beyond reasonable doubt, and we will not bring it up again.

US > all other countries, no matter what you want to pretend to think about your Britain, France, Netherlands, or wherever.

[CELTIC_2X]

my point exactly so dont fucking complane!

and football as it is and should be called b/c the majority of the world callls it that, is far superor in entertanement than ur booooooooring US "pigskin"

thats that matter closed.

[Justice]

We complain about some things we don't like about America.

We certainly have the right to complain (that's the whole point of the 1st Amendment). Complaining, in fact, is very good for democracy.

You take away our right to complain, you take away everything that America stands for.

cheers, and
-=</|awesomeparty|\>=-

[MVB]

I'm bored to tears watching Soccer, and love watching football. Clearly, the entertainment value is simply opinion. What is NOT up for debate or opinion is the fact that American football requires significantly more skill, intelligence, strength, toughness and endurance than nancypants Soccer.

[Ummon]

I am Italian.

In Italy, soccer is super-popular.

IMHO, soccer is boring as hell, and football, baseball, basket, and volley, are all fun to watch.

It may just be me, though. :confused:

[ilia]

Justice, and Celtic, there is a difference between "complaining", "whining" and "suggesting what could be improved". Just a general thought.

[Morpheus]

MVB, maybe not decline, but wrong path for sure.

This country currently is definetely the strongest when it comes to economy and people rights. Those two are very big pluses for USA, putting it on top of every other country. There are, however, very many little minuses, which I think are getting bigger and bigger. Morals, for example, are hard to come by, and there are more and more people consumed by greed and power - two main forces driving USA today. Even when it comes to freedom, laws can be changed and twisted, so that it does not interfere with the other two.
I like living here - it is good, provided two rules are satisfied. Rule #1 - do not get burned by one of the flaws that US political system have. Rule #2 - you can talk and complain about politics all you want, but as long as you don't actually care that it is not being fixed - life is good. I even believe some things can't be fixed - comes with the territory.

[Polaris]

im digusted with some of these judges out there. we finally get a good moral law out there (ie partial birth abortion) and judges take it into their own hands to nullify the fricken law! this has to be stopped, and i am confident Bush will do something about it, being the enforcer of the law the executive is.
I love the US and that's why i participate in the evil of politics, for one must fight fire with fire. what i hate the most about the US is ignorance. it makes no sense to me when some freshman with a D average thinks he can outsmart me in politcs when he's making everything up as he goes- and then people around us believe him and not me. so, i've given up on the willingly stubborn and ignorant, and told them to move to a different country. it's not like they usually like the US to begin with, anyway.

[CELTIC_2X]

MVB god dam u, i am telling u the skill needed to play football is far superor to ur US football, some of the players do amazing things with the ball skipping past them so on, ur guys just run into each other and wing a ball down the feild, no big deal man, i am hardly a rugby fan but i would take that over US football anyday, far more exciting and less stopping and starting.

although this is not gonna stop b/c we r both arogant and stuborn,

i still win.

[Justice]

No, ilia.

Very much the same thing.

cheers, and
-=</|awesomeparty|\>=-

[ilia]

Mm.. No.

Complaining is protesting against something which is wrong according to the general public's opinion.

Whining is protesting vs something which is not acceptible from your point of view only.

Suggesting what could be improved is protesting against the lack of functionality of something, with suggestions on how to fix this "something" which is the concern of either yourself, or a certain group of individuals.


Take a moment to think about it. Think about what you dont like in your country, and think how many other people share your thoughts.

[Karmashock]

Morals, for example, are hard to come by, and there are more and more people consumed by greed and power - two main forces driving USA today.
The US is a more moral country today then it has EVER been. EVER! Read a history book.


Even when it comes to freedom, laws can be changed and twisted, so that it does not interfere with the other two.
This is a problem. The courts haven't been doing their jobs for the better part of 70 years. They're supposed to PROTECT the constitution... not push through their ideological agenda.
I like living here - it is good, provided two rules are satisfied. Rule #1 - do not get burned by one of the flaws that US political system have. Rule #2 - you can talk and complain about politics all you want, but as long as you don't actually care that it is not being fixed - life is good. I even believe some things can't be fixed - comes with the territory.
The US political system has FEWER flaws then any other system on currently used on earth.

Second, Everyone has issues that they want fixed, however they often come at the expense of someone else's issues. That is for you to win, someone else must lose. It doesn't matter that your issue or mine might be better for the country at the end of the day, the point is that someone must lose and so they will fight. That struggle is what stops your issue.

Look at immigration... I want the boarder closed to illegal immigration. This is something the US could do if it wanted to. However, for that to happen the Hispanic groups that want to flood this country with new supporters would lose. It doesn't matter that they're more likely to turn the US into Mexico then help their own people. They want to win.

Or take the US technological future... when was the last time we invested in that? Try 15 years ago at least. Countries like China and India are snapping at our heals and the only way we're staying ahead is by importing their scientists about as fast as they're making them. Currently 36% of all US scientists are foreign born. This is a problem. It's good that we're getting these people, but we should be making our own.

Or take the US's economic future... Every time a new regulation, tax, miscellaneous yard of red tape is put on business it slows us down fractionally. US business is getting slow and fat. The solution is to open our markets more to the outside and make it easier for little companies to be made and for little companies to become big companies. The big us industries are aging... they need new blood and more competition.

Or the Universities... do they ever take into consideration that their students might actually want to get jobs after they graduate? Like maybe talk less bullshit and provide more useful knowledge and skills? Some of the stuff they do would be like wasting a future doctor's time with basket weaving... it's just stupid.

The US does very well for itself, but it wasn't easy for us to get here... and many of the people in power and growing up take it for granted. Worse still some of them don't even think our hegemony is worth maintaining. This was something our grandfathers gave us... our fathers ran mostly on momentum... as the grandchildren it will soon be our turn to carry the torch and it won't be easy... We must bleed for our future.
============================================
im digusted with some of these judges out there. we finally get a good moral law out there (ie partial birth abortion) and judges take it into their own hands to nullify the fricken law! this has to be stopped, and i am confident Bush will do something about it, being the enforcer of the law the executive is.
First, this is a good example of the courts taking more power then they are legally allowed to have.
Second, republicans have to be careful here… if republicans go to far with the abortion nonsense, then they’ll screw the party for decades. Gun rights killed Al Gore… don’t let abortion kill whoever comes after bush.
I love the US and that's why i participate in the evil of politics, for one must fight fire with fire. what i hate the most about the US is ignorance. it makes no sense to me when some freshman with a D average thinks he can outsmart me in politcs when he's making everything up as he goes- and then people around us believe him and not me.
That happens everywhere… I’ve seen that in many countries… I’ve had stupid Germans tell me about my own country like they knew anything… the second they say “the US only cares about money” or something similar… I just end the conversation. I call them tools no matter what country they come from. They’re mindless puppets when it comes to things they don’t understand. They choose the person they want to believe then offer their empty minds as willing receptacles to another’s words.


so, i've given up on the willingly stubborn and ignorant, and told them to move to a different country. it's not like they usually like the US to begin with, anyway.
That’s actually the joke… how many of these morons that threatened to leave actually have?… None of them have gone… we even offered them free air fair and they stayed. :)
========================================
MVB god dam u, i am telling u the skill needed to play football is far superor to ur US football, some of the players do amazing things with the ball skipping past them so on, ur guys just run into each other and wing a ball down the feild, no big deal man, i am hardly a rugby fan but i would take that over US football anyday, far more exciting and less stopping and starting.
Again… it’s two different styles of play. NO human being could sustain the degree of effort that Football players put into the game for those few seconds. They literally give it 150 percent… which means if it goes on for too long they’ll just collapse… anyone would. In soccer or rugby you give it 70 or 50 percent depending on what you’re doing… You hold back so you can endure. The only player in soccer that is like a football player is the Goalie… because most of the time he’s just chilling back there. But every once in a while, he has to give it 150 percent to get that ball NOW!

So that’s the difference… pulsed to constant play. We prefer a pulses of superhuman agility… you prefer a constant flow superhuman endurance.

Because we have grown up with different things we expect different things from the game. I assure you that we find soccer just as boring as you find football…

Name another sport where the players hit each other so hard that without pads they’d crush each other’s bones.
=============================================
Mm.. No.

Complaining is protesting against something which is wrong according to the general public's opinion.
Complaining isn’t protesting. It’s assumed that protesting has some sort of merit behind it. While complaining is more of a preference issue.

Whining is protesting vs something which is not acceptible from your point of view only.
No, whining is complaining after the point where it’s well known that you’re not going to get your way unless you’re SOOO annoying that they give it to you JUST to shut you up. Not because you made a good point, not because you’re right… but because you’re annoying.

Suggesting what could be improved is protesting against the lack of functionality of something, with suggestions on how to fix this "something" which is the concern of either yourself, or a certain group of individuals.
Core to the concept of a ‘suggestion’ is that the person isn’t ‘asking’ you to do it. It’s entirely optional. If I suggested that we go to restaurant, then you could ‘state’ that we are going home. At which point I might ‘inform’ you that we have no food there.

There was no complaining or protesting. Complaints are negative statements that describe the way things should be, the way they are, and how this difference is the fault of the person listening. While complaining and protesting are very similar, the difference is that protests are generally louder, more official, and generally regarded to be more serious. One complains about being cold… one protests being forbidden a coat.

[CELTIC_2X]

well karma i was gonna say just that, we were brought up differntly,

so we want other things from our sports.

and neather 1 is superor to the other,

stuff that MVB u fuge packer :nyah:

[Tigre]

Celty, did you buy that little plaid g-stingy thingy yet? :gay: :ass: :agree:

[Karmashock]

hmm... that was slightly homoerotic...

[Forsaken]

The only form of hate that I have at the US has nothing to do with the lack of freedom. America is better than all other countries IMO. However, what I hate is that it seems so many people say "Freedom? You're freer than anywhere else in the world. Be happy with that". Just because a country is better than someone else doesn't mean they shouldn't have a responsibility to continue to attempt improvement.

[Karmashock]

The system is set pretty well in stone... we can't improve it without a revolution... and then you'd have to have people wiser and nobler then the founders.

The only thing I think that could improve our federal system would be a referendum process (filtered through the electoral congress of course)... and a requirement that all changes to government salaries, taxes, major spending be exposed to such referendums.

The congressmen and senators are too duplicitous to trust when there might be a conflict of interest and the information is too obscure and dense for us to absorb it unless it were essential that it be understandable.

Minus that, we can only hold the line... but with congress duplicitous, the courts without the constitutional fanaticism that is their duty, and the president in constant flux... it's a losing battle minus a massive change.

The fact that Arnold is trying to weaken the wall that prevents him from running for president with some success is just another sign of the system cracking under the massive pressure and poor maintenance.

[MVB]

Celtic, you're right, we're both arrogant and stubborn, so no point arguing. The difference is, I'm right .... cunt

<3

[Morpheus]

Karma, me and you have a different view of morals. I do not consider things such as making same sex marrriages legal as "moral issues", most of those have money behind it, "morality" is a cover-up.

I agree on other points though. You're just proving my point that greed and power hunger is preventing US from advancing ahead. Main reason people are willing to live like this, because economy can support this right now. My main concern is how do we reverse the damage being done to the planet(not just by US) in order to support the economy.

[Karmashock]

First, you don't know what I mean about morality... we've commited genocide and slavery... we're FAR more moral today. I don't assume you're a moron, don't assume I'm so stupid as to use gay issues to say we're more or less moral.

Second, Greed is NOTHING new to the US. Greed has always been here. The US system was designed to live with greed and in may situations thrive on it. However, there are other forces. For one, the population is more 'ethnic' today... we have more people of power that don't assocate on regional lines as the system was designed for them to do... they ally on racial and ethnic lines... This causes stress the system wasn't designed for... I would like to stress that I have no problem with this mix of cultures and races. I am merely pointing out that the system was designed to balance conflicting powers against each other to promote stability and democratic discourse. If new forces are introduced, then the system is put out of balance, and should be corrected. We also have a MUCH larger government that is responsible for WAY WAY more then the system was designed for. There is too much power for the countermeasures to handle it. It is true that there is less corruption today, but the corruption we have is more dangerious. Pork barrel is wasteful, but not dangerious... social programs that weaken the very foundation of our economy or culture could spell the end of our stand at the top. The demand for higher and higher taxes will crush our business ambitions... our lust for luxury and comfort over labor and TRUE progress will ensure that someone else will be designing hte technology of hte future.

I could bring up the corruption... but like many things, that's always been there.

[Morpheus]

Social programs? What is our military spending like nowdays? Social programs help people, while military usually ends up killing someone....
And why are we paying for all the private planes and luxury cars our politicians have(or anyone who's payed by federal dollars)? Shouldn't they be driven by a will to help our country, not by how nice their life will be? What about unions for federal and state jobs - who the hell gave them permission to have it? Taxpayers did? I don't think so.

[ilia]

Just because a country is better than someone else doesn't mean they shouldn't have a responsibility to continue to attempt improvement.

Interestingly enough, thats like defending Bill Gates from those who accuse him of things he does in order to get more money.

[Karmashock]

As to the military, that's the govs CONSITUTIONAL Job! Not that you likely care much about the constitution... The social programs have NEVER been the fed's job. You want that at the state level? Pay for it with state taxes.

As to the rest, that's just corruption... and that's no worse then its ever been... likely its better today then it was 100 years ago... again, read a book.
Interestingly enough, thats like defending Bill Gates from those who accuse him of things he does in order to get more money.
Oh course... He MUST keep improving and expanding. Because he occupies so much space he has to do the work of hundreds of smaller companies and ALL of them would push as hard as possible to expand.

The opposite of this is a fat monopoly that is a cancer on the economy. Microsoft lacks innovation often, relying on stock systems... This is the ONLY problem with the company however, and it could be MUCH MUCH worse.

Look at a government monopoly like the Mexican telephone company... bad service, old technology, and very high prices. Microsoft has ok service, top notch technology (not well programmed always, but top notch), and reasonable prices... Hell, I don't know anyone under 40 that has ever even considered buying a Microsoft product that they could just borrow/pirate from someone else.

Look at the Xbox... is that the work of a bloated and lazy monopoly? What I fault Microsoft for is having a VERY messy operating system. Linux is a million times more stable because everything is clear and neat.

Just hating them because they're big is the mark of a simple mind... I don't think you're simple because I doubt you've thought about it much. Most people in this modern society just don't give things enough thought... People associate speed with intelligence increasingly as they associate people with machines. However, what people don't get is that they're writing the code as they go along and going faster but having less complex code means less sophisticated results (my personal analogy for eggheads). My great uncle taught me this when I was a little kid... he taught me to think 'slowly'... and completely... very very few people do this... it takes for fucking ever... but you come to completely new understandings and have FAR richer opinions.



All I'm saying is to back away from the system and see the big picture... Microsoft has been a good thing and still isn't a bad thing.

Oh, and anyone that just hates large things is a goof ball... throw rotten lettuce at them or old obsolete computer cards... which ever is handier.

Love and peace, Karmashock.

[CELTIC_2X]

dam u MVB u no i canni give up, let it die,

i am right :urstupid:

so that :halt: it.

job done,

walk away,

go on son.

[ilia]

On topic:

My example of Bill Gates was meant to show one thing: people care about things they shouldnt care about. Why should Bill care about good customer service? hes among the richest people in the world! What does he care if tomorrow he just dismisses all of micro$oft's employees, and goes to pension? Does he care about all the staff? I doubt. A man who reached his position with sucha sum of money must be more cold hearted than the thoughest military general. Does he care about the worldwide market? Surely, he could just sell the technology to other companies which in turn would develop it in the way they want. Does he care of us, poor PC users who will have to deal with all of this mess? Dont make me laugh. And yet, he continues to work, to gain more money. Thats why people accuse him.


As for your US government: You have the best economy, the best military, and a generally good society. What else do you freaking want?! We got none of these and you never hear us complaining. You say your society lack morale. Well, just becuase some prick murdered an 80 y/o women in Nebraska (just an example), doesn't mean that your country lacks morale. It's caled crime. It is everywhere, and it is not up to you to try and reduce it. Sure, you can complain as long as you want, but it wont change anything, so why bother...

Stop looking at the empty side of the glass, and accept things the way they are without stupid definitions of good and evil, moral and immoral. Thats what I do, at least.

[Karmashock]

Just cus'... this is the only political thought I had this christmas. :)
http://www.illwillpress.com/xmess.html


On topic:
My example of Bill Gates was meant to show one thing: people care about things they shouldnt care about.
Ok... now looking for things that people shouldn't care about.

Why should Bill care about good customer service? hes among the richest people in the world! What does he care if tomorrow he just dismisses all of micro$oft's employees, and goes to pension?
Because it would be immoral. Large companies MUST work as hard as small companies... they must grow... nothing is ever enough. AGAIN... PAY ATTENTION! If we split Microsoft up into a hundred little companies that were all secure in their futures would they all just go to sleep as you seem to think Microsoft should? Fuck no... they would work and strive to be bigger and better. Always! Nothing is ever enough. The bigger you are the harder it is to keep on growing... and GROWTH is the imperative... you must always grow and grow as fast as possible. Growth = profit. The day Microsoft decides to stop growing is the day it will start dying.

Does he care about all the staff? I doubt.
On what basis? Are you really so simple as to think that all people with money are bad people? That the richer you are the less moral you are? Please don't tell me you're such a fool.

A man who reached his position with sucha sum of money must be more cold hearted than the thoughest military general. Does he care about the worldwide market?
Bullshit... just total and complete bullshit. Is he ruthless about his business's future? Sure... does that mean he's a monster?... Gate's contributes more of his money to charity then just about anyone out there... He's also leaving most of it to charity when he dies. Look at the other great tycoons... what did they do with their money?... built libraries, gave it all to art, started scholarships to schools so that less fortunate people could rise up too.

Wake up... without people like gates, the US would be a far far poorer nation. Seriously, in the US we like the mega billionaires… they’ve been very very good for us. Look at our movies… the super rich that WORK hard are always loved… always.

If you can’t understand this, then it might be part of our culture.

Surely, he could just sell the technology to other companies which in turn would develop it in the way they want. Does he care of us, poor PC users who will have to deal with all of this mess? Dont make me laugh. And yet, he continues to work, to gain more money. Thats why people accuse him.
Why would he sell it to them? Give me one business reason to do that.


As for your US government: You have the best economy, the best military, and a generally good society. What else do you freaking want?! We got none of these and you never hear us complaining.
Nothing is ever enough... to stop improving... growing... evolving... is to start dying. We must never stop.

You say your society lack morale. Well, just becuase some prick murdered an 80 y/o women in Nebraska (just an example), doesn't mean that your country lacks morale. It's caled crime. It is everywhere, and it is not up to you to try and reduce it. Sure, you can complain as long as you want, but it wont change anything, so why bother...
I wouldn't make those claims... I would however make the claim that my society takes the constitution very lightly considering how well it's protected us. It' almost like a holy rite to us... the founders almost like gods... But many don't realize how much it's protected us and mettle with its tenets... it's very sad.

Stop looking at the empty side of the glass, and accept things the way they are without stupid definitions of good and evil, moral and immoral. Thats what I do, at least.
You must understand that we have a very complex culture here. We have many groups struggling for control of the country amongst each other. The democrats represent the largest cities concentrated in the northeast and west coast of my country. They're largely socialist and would like to make the US more like Europe. The republicans represent basically everywhere else. Even in places like California, most of the 'area' of the state is covered with republicans. But the two big cities of Los Angeles and San Francisco are strongly democrat zones so all the states votes go to the democrats. The Reps are more nationalist and would like to take America on a different path. One that doesn't try to kill god and lets people live how they want to... with the exception of narcotics... and a couple religious issues like homosexual marriage and late term abortion.

There are dozens of sub factions in each group though they all must ally with either the dems or the reps. Our system is set up in such a way that only two parties can survive.

[JADezimar]

Oh, and anyone that just hates large things is a goof ball... throw rotten lettuce at them or old obsolete computer cards... which ever is handier.

Ya the Fridge RockED!

I would have to say Barry Sanders is my all time fav player though o0 He was amazing to watch

Again Ill have to say that this says it all good link karma
http://www.illwillpress.com/xmess.html

[ilia]

Mm.. Karma, maybe I watched TOO many movies and read TOO many books, where the rich and the sucessful are often cold hearted sub-human beings wo care only about profit, and dont pay attention to beauty, nature, their surroundings, etc.

You basicaly defend capitalism in it's every possible aspect. I'm not sayoing capitalism is bad. Im just saying that there is a limit how far it can go. Not everything is buisness. If I was the head of a large company, with a huge revenue, a hefty personal amount of money in my bank - be it even 50 million - which is what Bill uses for toilet paper everyday - I would have handed the company to someone else, and went to a long and trouble-less life as a sucessful buisnessman. Why would I want to stay? the tension? the nervousness? the constant worry that one day I might be killed as I am so well known? I work for money. And when I have enough for the rest of my life, I see no reason to work anymore.

And this issue if "Democrats-repulbicants" is irrelevant. As far as I know, no one of them has ever suggested a new law where murdering people is ok. So, you should just side with whoever you feel most comfortable with out of your personal interests, and stop worring about the society you live in.
Yes you have a very complex culture here. Guess what, so do we. But we live with each other, and dont push our noses into each other. We dont care what social group A did to social group B or how social group C accused social group D. If you cant get along with one of these social groups, I suggest you move to a different city/town/village w/e. No social group is ever going to be removed, or changed so once again, youd better adapt to the current situation.

[Karmashock]

Mm.. Karma, maybe I watched TOO many movies and read TOO many books, where the rich and the sucessful are often cold hearted sub-human beings wo care only about profit, and dont pay attention to beauty, nature, their surroundings, etc.

I just don't think you have thought about an ownership/personal property society in detail.

You basicaly defend capitalism in it's every possible aspect.
I give credit where it's due. I'm am only supporting it in opposition to centralization and government monopoly/domination. Capitalism isn't perfect... it's just better then that... we surpassed that stupidity nearly 400 years ago... dressing it up in a new name and giving it the new task of doweling out free medicine doesn't change what it is... or what it does to society. Europeans are comfortable with it... it is the way they used to live under the old kings... There is a part of American culture that absolutely REFUSES! to accept that. Never again.
I'm not sayoing capitalism is bad. Im just saying that there is a limit how far it can go. Not everything is buisness.
Indeed, if everything were business then there would be no need for personal relationships or government. However, those three groups of the personal, the business, and the government generally cover everything.

If I was the head of a large company, with a huge revenue, a hefty personal amount of money in my bank - be it even 50 million - which is what Bill uses for toilet paper everyday - I would have handed the company to someone else, and went to a long and trouble-less life as a sucessful buisnessman.
First, then you don't understand why companies become that big. If all people ever cared about was money there would be no big businesses founded by lone businessmen. They would get 30 million dollars and then just enjoy the rest of their lives. Building the company and making something GREAT is the prime motivator.

Why would I want to stay? the tension? the nervousness? the constant worry that one day I might be killed as I am so well known? I work for money. And when I have enough for the rest of my life, I see no reason to work anymore.
The joy and pride of creation and success.

And this issue if "Democrats-repulbicants" is irrelevant. As far as I know, no one of them has ever suggested a new law where murdering people is ok.
That's a silly comment... that's like saying there is no difference between communism and anarchy because neither system makes it legal to kill people.

That's a silly test between ideological groups. Nearly all groups on earth agree that murder is wrong.... it's bad for order if people just start offing each other at will.

So, you should just side with whoever you feel most comfortable with out of your personal interests, and stop worring about the society you live in.
Yes you have a very complex culture here. Guess what, so do we. But we live with each other, and dont push our noses into each other. We dont care what social group A did to social group B or how social group C accused social group D. If you cant get along with one of these social groups, I suggest you move to a different city/town/village w/e. No social group is ever going to be removed, or changed so once again, youd better adapt to the current situation.
First, to stop struggling is to start dying.
Second, I doubt very much any culture on earth is as complex is ours... Think of all the races, the short history, the invented national identity, the vast regional differences, the old ethnic biases, the old racial biases, the developed ideological conflicted between literally hundreds of sub factions, the fluid unions of those factions into coalitions. The reason why the US is such and insular country is that we have a great deal to focus on.
Third, why should I stop fighting for what I believe?


Here is a simple question... are you a fatalist? Do you believe in predestination and that everything will happen a certain way no matter what anyone does?

If so you will be just a spectator in history...

Enjoy the show, Karmashock.

[ilia]

Yes, the way you descibe it I am a "fatalist". And I do enjoy the show as long as it lasts.

[ebev]

Sorry I LOVE the USA. I severved in the first Desert storm. And I Volenteered.
The people that hate the US are just more vocal. Becouse they are wineing about not getting there way.

[MVB]

Ilia, the fact that you look down on people with money is ridiculous. Bill Gates enjoys his job. Additionally, the way these big companies work, if he were to leave, he'd lose a massive percentage of his money, b/c it's tied up in assets, and almost none of it is available in flat, banked cash.

To think it is wrong to continue to work when you have enough money simply indicates -- to me -- that you have a job you hate. I'm working at a job right now, 2 weeks after graduation, that I would work at even if I had millions of dollars ... I ENJOY it. There is stress, annoyances, and all that jazz, like with any job, but it is actually a pleasure for me.

TLSC is STRESSFUL for me to run. I don't have to do it, b/c it could do relatively well without me these days. I enjoy it, though, despite the stresses, and I also am gratified by it -- everything around us developed out of a little idea I had nearly 5 years ago. It's flattering that it became so large, and flattering that you all enjoy it here so much. I also CARE about your gaming experiences. Gates CARES about the product his company creates, and CARES about his employees and his company, and THAT is why he's still "in the game," as it were. When YOU find a job that really is something you deeply enjoy, you'll know what I'm talking about, and you'll realize how ridiculous it was that someone I generally respect -- you -- made such a bluntly ignorant statement as you did, namely, that someone who continues to work once he has tons of money is inherently cold-hearted and greedy.

[ilia]

Mm..

All my life I work - and without payment (guess at what job). And I hear constantly at home that this is nothing compared to real work. I dunno at what job are you employed, but I think you should consider yourself extremely lucky that you like it. Trust me when I say this: ~ 80% of the people in the world hate their jobs. They work for one thing: money. Also remember that a job has to respect the one who works at it. I personally wouldnt care if I were a bank manager, or a dishwasher if the payment was the same, but I know the people around me would. I dont know about you, but I hate what I do now: studying. And if this is indeed nothing compared to the "Real work" out there, I will probably hate the "Real work" as well. The only motivation I will have to keep working is gaining money so I will be able to make myself a living, and maintain a good internet connection together with a good computer, and some online games, so I will be able to continue my primary source of enjoyment - online gaming. And this is'nt really "well, if you dont like this job, just choose another honey". I dunno how it is in the almighty US of A, but here you grab every opportunity you got. And even if you do love the job you have, and the payment is satisfactory, be certain that whoever-is-up-there will screw you, and make your boss the devil himself. That, or you will be accused of something you didnt do, and fired. That or the company will face a sudden bankrup and youl be fired. That, or your working partners will be lazy and put all the work on you. If everyone would be given the chance to choose the job they liked this planet would be pure Heaven. But thing is they dont.

And I dont look down on people with money. I look down - like everyone else does - on people with too much money.

[LardGibs]

I just don't think you have thought about an ownership/personal property society in detail.
maybe we can talk about my so called subtle flaws then since you have.

It is NOT possible to have personal property until your personal wealth is large enough to be hidden extralegally from taxes, and/or your annuitized 'interest' or investment return is greater than your tax load. Until then you are just renting everything from the government(s) as a guarantor of personal property rights. If you don't pay your 'rent', you get evicted, which is not reminiscent of something that you truly own.

This is the challenge for people of modest means, only a few of us are going to break the system and climb into the low clouds, the rest just scrabble on from job to job, replacing bent and broken baubles as we go, leaving nothing of a material nature but trash and trinkets when we die.

I've said before in other threads that the wealth of Americans is partially an illusion because the government doesn't provide many things that we consequently have to buy ourselves. In typical style many go way overboard, like personal transportation.

I used to believe that people who did poorly in the game of capitalism (i.e. homeless winos) should suck it up and get better at it, but then I learned I wasn't destined to be great at the game myself. Reeks of hypocrisy perhaps but I'll own up to it.

America=rental society, except for the landlords.

[Forsaken]

Illa, Gates isn't as bad as you seem to say, I even got to meet him one time, he's actually pretty easygoing in person, though very dedicated.

And IIRC the head JANITOR of microsoft is worth several million. He doesn't just throw away the staff or something. He didn't make his billions by taking them away from the company.

[allied56]

Its a love-hate relationship. I hate 7/10 californians, but i love california. Just like the British HATE the french, but love france.

lol kyle im british and i dont hate the france(not all the time anyway). Is that what peeps in USA think??

[ilia]

Forsaken, Gates only seved as an example to prove one of my points. Granted, he is a bad example by what you have said, and still, people think of him very negatively. Particulary all the free-OS based dudes.

[JADezimar]

I dont know about you, but I hate what I do now: studying. And if this is indeed nothing compared to the "Real work" out there, I will probably hate the "Real work" as well. The only motivation I will have to keep working is gaining money so I will be able to make myself a living, and maintain a good internet connection together with a good computer, and some online games, so I will be able to continue my primary source of enjoyment - online gaming

Ya thats how the commen person see's it theyve hated every job theyve had. I know I have. Even jobs that I would do well at or enjoy Id have to climb the ranks to do what I honestly want to do. So If thats pretty much what id do work something I really hate just to have the basic amenities I really want and need. As long as I have games im a severely happy person.

[Karmashock]

I dont know about you, but I hate what I do now: studying.
I hate that too... I like my job though... they're not the same thing... School is annoying.

It is NOT possible to have personal property until your personal wealth is large enough to be hidden extralegally from taxes, and/or your annuitized 'interest' or investment return is greater than your tax load. Until then you are just renting everything from the government(s) as a guarantor of personal property rights. If you don't pay your 'rent', you get evicted, which is not reminiscent of something that you truly own.
Taxes stir the pot. That said, there are plenty of states in the country where there are no property taxes... so I don't really know what you're talking about?... In such states you're just paying 'someone else' for the right to live some place at worst... it's never the government... and when it is, its the state... not hte feds.

This is the challenge for people of modest means, only a few of us are going to break the system and climb into the low clouds, the rest just scrabble on from job to job, replacing bent and broken baubles as we go, leaving nothing of a material nature but trash and trinkets when we die.
That just takes discipline... My grand fathers were an ice cream truck driver and a computer (literally did calculations for the Chicago commodities exchange before electronic computers... pencil and paper)... the grand father that drove ice cream trucks had 10 restaurants and was the California president of commerce one year appointed by Governor Reagan. The one that was a computer had a very successful farming partnership in San Diego that made him millions in his life and sold for millions more when it was time to build a Wal-Mart on top of it. Look at all the illegal immigrants that start with NOTHING and have successful businesses.

Take a chance, cus' I won't cry for you.

I've said before in other threads that the wealth of Americans is partially an illusion because the government doesn't provide many things that we consequently have to buy ourselves. In typical style many go way overboard, like personal transportation.
Who ever said the government is even supposed to provide for wealth? The best the govs can do is get the fuck out of the way.

I used to believe that people who did poorly in the game of capitalism (i.e. homeless winos) should suck it up and get better at it, but then I learned I wasn't destined to be great at the game myself. Reeks of hypocrisy perhaps but I'll own up to it.
Why have you given up? My uncle never even went to college and he's very successful. He runs a small construction company that is making bank remodeling homes in northern California.

America=rental society, except for the landlords.
You've already admitted that you don't really understand the system... so why don't you save those statements for people that do.
================================
lol kyle im british and i dont hate the france(not all the time anyway). Is that what peeps in USA think??
not really... we just remember that you used to hate them... We know that they annoy you occasionally... but they do that to everyone.
===============================
Forsaken, Gates only seved as an example to prove one of my points. Granted, he is a bad example by what you have said, and still, people think of him very negatively. Particulary all the free-OS based dudes.
People hated Rockefeller too... but without him there would be no standard fuel grades. He invented the modern oil market.

[ilia]

Karma: Yes, but Rockefeller contributed to the society by inventing something, while Microsoft just purchases licenses and then renames the product name in their favour, possibly enhancing a feature here and there.

The only things Microsoft invented were the brand names. Oh and the Microsoft font of course. :)

Edit: At the very beginning Microsoft DID invent what is now called "Dos". But it was so crappy that they had to steal some stuff from other OSs (particulary apple's OS) to make it noteworthy.

[Karmashock]

Not true... microsoft has and continues to invent lots of stuff... Seriously, you need to rethink your arguement.

[/<yle]

We may be the most powerfull country, but we let millions to silently be killed without a trial. Thats what abortion is. If you dont think it is, your wrong. Ill go back and forth with you on RU486. But after 3 weeks, its murder, because they have the rudiments of pain sensation. Also, the little Boys of this country need to step up to the plate and try to give their progeny the best chance at life that they can. It takes 2 to get pregnent. Anyways, Focker out

[Karmashock]

its the women that want it... and they've been doing it for THOUSANDS of years... What do you think the second function of 'midwifes' is? Why do you think that men were always asked to leave the room?

In my economics training we've studied populations to understand trends... one of the more interesting discoveries is that women have had effective if somewhat crude abortion for a very very long time.

This is not an issue we should fight a last stand battle on... Other things are far more important and this would just cripple us without even giving you some temporary victory.

Leave people to their own ends. This is something for nature to work out. If you don't have enough children your bloodline withers and dies... So at the end of the day evolution will sort this out. As to morality and children? Perhaps some restrictions on late term abortions where there is no danger to the mother... but that's the farthest I would ever go... it's just not worth it.

See the bigger picture, Karmashock.

[ilia]

Not true... microsoft has and continues to invent lots of stuff... Seriously, you need to rethink your arguement.

If that is true, than my sources of information are incorrect. Sure, they may invent a thing here and there, but neither the core concept of Windows, office, directX, or X-box were invented by them. These are just ideas that other companies developed, and from whom, Microsoft purchased the license, effectively changing the projects' names. This I know for sure.

[Karmashock]

All companies copy. Everytime you use the C programming language you're using someone else's idea no matter what you make. Microsoft is so large and covers so much that they can't help but copy just like a hundred smaller companies would of course copy something here or there from another company.

What you have to see is the big picture... Consider how compatible and flexible the OS is? Apple's OS is not and has NEVER been as flexable or as open to new hardware/software. Linux, while being generally better for servers or professionals, is not a good home user system.

You don't think Rockefeller copied?... you don't think he bought out the competition and used their idea?

Think again.

[/<yle]

Allied, Richard Canning told me that one, and hes hardcore british.

[Burned]

Spain government is far better than the US one i think, even though the last president we had was a jerk and supported Bush no matter what he did. The one we have now is good, he solving all the problems the old one created.

And btw, i can tell u for sure that the US isnt the best country in the world and neither the one with more freedom :)

About soccer, its just a matter of taste, just like if ppl like pizza or they prefer spaghettis.

I like more football(soccer for u american guys) because i think its far more interesting and that the skill(mouvements) needed to do something beatifull is higher in soccer.U guys would be impressed if u saw what ppl like Zidane, Ronaldhino, Figo, Davids can do with their feets and a ball

[Karmashock]

US > Spain... claiming otherwise is flat out comical... If you want to make that argument, then you should probably just save time and stable clown shoes to your feet and try on fuzzy wigs. That argument is asinine to a degree as to imply retardation if it were not for the assumed comedy in the background.

As to freedom, how do you define freedom? When euros tend to talk about freedom, they tend to bring up free medical care... which has shit to do with freedom, where as Americans rightfully bring up their right to call anyone else on the planet an asshole or a saint. Our political and religious freedoms on a personal level are really unrivaled.

As to Soccer v Football... we've been through this before... it's a difference between continuous paced play and pulsed all or nothing play. You choose your speed and go with it.

[JADezimar]

I love the crushing hits in football. And the FAct the player has to really feel the feild to do anything. The latter of which is a true gifted skill most people dont have. Football =90% mental.

Soccer =99.9% practice your whole life and you can play.

[Karmashock]

One of the things you've got to love about football is how MUCH better behaved they are... baseball players are fucking children... and basketball players aren't much better... but Football is far more mature... at least relatively...


Baseball used to be the American sport... but really, football is today... nothing else really rates...

[Burned]

I didnt say Spain was better than the US, i said their actual government is.And anyway, how can u say that the US is better than Spain?In what do u get based to say that?

Freedom, yeh, hard to define, im talking about freedom to express ur opinion, that kind of things.Luxembourg/Spain/Finland/Sweden/Denmark/Belgium just to name a few, in all those countries the ppl have more freedom than in the US

[/<yle]

I base it on # of nukes

[Karmashock]

I didnt say Spain was better than the US, i said their actual government is.
Based on what? I probably know more about the US government, then you do about the Spanish or US governments combined. So hit me with your best shot.
And anyway, how can u say that the US is better than Spain?In what do u get based to say that?
We're the global hegemonic power.

We dominate world politics.
We dominate the world economy.
We dominate global technology.
We dominate global culture.

We dominate the future and control ideas. This is what hegemony is... We don't need to stick a gun your face to control things... we can do most of it by selling you a big mac or sticking jay low's ass in your face...

Just about the only thing we don't dominate is world religion... and we're working on that.

If that isn't what you define as being good or bad... then you define what makes spain better. Because the US only dominates those things because we're better then everyone else at it.

Honestly, we thought that Spain was going to finally become a world player when they were helping us... maybe make a difference in the world after basically going to sleep for 200 years... but no... and so they will continue to be irrelevent.

We even tried to make spain look good too... That weapons shipment you intercepted was given to your navy by a US submarine what was shadowing the shipment. We could have dispatched a distroyer or even surfaced the sub to stop that nonsense... but we let you do it... why? To help Spain's self image and self confidence in world affairs... we wanted you to feel comfortable and powerful... But, you're pussies... you get a terrorist strike in your country and you decide to run away... fucking spineless.

Freedom, yeh, hard to define, im talking about freedom to express ur opinion, that kind of things.Luxembourg/Spain/Finland/Sweden/Denmark/Belgium just to name a few, in all those countries the ppl have more freedom than in the US

Not true. In the US you can express ANY opinion. In europe you can go to jail for expressing some opinions.

[JADezimar]

Not true. In the US you can express ANY opinion. In europe you can go to jail for expressing some opinions.

You can be fined for using IMPerial units. Is that freedom ? Id have to agree with Karma on this.

[Tank0]

i like most americans who arent uber nationalistic ( cough karma cough , US is a great country but not the best in EVERYTHING ) and most of their culture .

i only hate the imperialistic goverment and live in fear that the high nationalistic feeling will turn into fascisme if a second 9/11 ever happens ( study german history 1930-1939 ).

middle east
action must be taken but a solo rambo action isnt the solution

korea
dont leave it up to china

asia tsunami
little slow respons but thank god for those yanks

europe
trust us we re not planning to destroy the US,we are still your best allies .


MVB about the soccer : it can be boring but dont call them pancies , they dont stop every 5 seconds , wear no protection , play in all weather and dont have a half army for every fase of the game :P


we in belgium have freedom of speech but you do risk jailtime if you deny the holocaust or wear a swastika ( we live next to germany so i think you can understand why ) but for once i have to agree with karma , US has more freedom then europe

[Morpheus]

Heh, Hitler thought he could control religion.... So did Stalin and his followers.... The outcome of the US trying to control it will be the same....

[DrunkenUno]

One of the things you've got to love about football is how MUCH better behaved they are... baseball players are fucking children... and basketball players aren't much better... but Football is far more mature... at least relatively...


Baseball used to be the American sport... but really, football is today... nothing else really rates...

Football is the greatest sport because of the parity. Its true, that on any given sunday, any team can win. The salary cap is the greatest invention in the history of professional sports. While baseball is a complete joke with the Yankees basically buying anyone they want, football makes it so that a team can lose one year and win a superbowl the next. As far as I know soccer too is based on the baseball model, with the powerful teams constantly dominating year after year.

Football=america. Football is... freedom. Football is equality. A star player can get injured and a completely unknown, unheralded guy can come in and become an allstar (like kurt warner). Every player makes a difference. Every game is immensely interesting, as you never know the outcome, even if the worst team is playing the best team. Football also ALWAYS has something happening, whereas soccer scores are frequently 1-0 or 1-1 etc. Not only that, football is a thinking mans game. WTF does a coach do in soccer besides "oh... change formations... oh... substitute... ok go play." Football is almost like the two opposing coaches playing a war game against eachother, except their units can actually think for themselves. There have been some fabulously brilliant coaches who have invented plays that simplky make you shit yourself at how well thought out they are. Prolly 80% of the time in football, a score is due to a fabulously crafted play which is then perfectly executed by the team. In soccer, a score is just simply faking out a goalie.

I could write a whole paper on this, but its fleet battle time.

[Ummon]

Drunk is right, football is strategy, while soccer is a game for pansies. Not a very popular truth in europe, but nonetheless truth.

[JADezimar]

We may be the most powerfull country, but we let millions to silently be killed without a trial. Thats what abortion is

I cant beleive im just now catching this quote. But anyway here is my response, This may be true or not, Depending on your StandPoint. But my question to you is? What country do you come from where abortion is not legalized ?

And Drunken Great Posts I think you cought many of the greatest things about Football In its essence. Look at the Chargers for instance. Last season they were like 4-12 or 6-12 this season they won 12 games, IF I am remember right.

[Tank0]

Football is the greatest sport because of the parity. Its true, that on any given sunday, any team can win. The salary cap is the greatest invention in the history of professional sports. While baseball is a complete joke with the Yankees basically buying anyone they want, football makes it so that a team can lose one year and win a superbowl the next. As far as I know soccer too is based on the baseball model, with the powerful teams constantly dominating year after year.

Football=america. Football is... freedom. Football is equality. A star player can get injured and a completely unknown, unheralded guy can come in and become an allstar (like kurt warner). Every player makes a difference. Every game is immensely interesting, as you never know the outcome, even if the worst team is playing the best team. Football also ALWAYS has something happening, whereas soccer scores are frequently 1-0 or 1-1 etc. Not only that, football is a thinking mans game. WTF does a coach do in soccer besides "oh... change formations... oh... substitute... ok go play." Football is almost like the two opposing coaches playing a war game against eachother, except their units can actually think for themselves. There have been some fabulously brilliant coaches who have invented plays that simplky make you shit yourself at how well thought out they are. Prolly 80% of the time in football, a score is due to a fabulously crafted play which is then perfectly executed by the team. In soccer, a score is just simply faking out a goalie.

I could write a whole paper on this, but its fleet battle time.to avoid misunderstanding ill adapt and call it soccer in this reply .

you grew up with football i grew up with soccer ( grandfather was a coach in the national league in the seventies )

you are right the moneysystem is raping soccer in europe . real madrid ( supported by the king of spain ) has a team to drool about and yet without teamplay and a real will to work for your teammates they arent getting results.

furthermore the refusal to use replays to aid the refs is causing many fans to cry CHEAT ( example the 50 meter goal this week in england )

about the score : a game ending in 1-0 or 0-0 can be great if both teams give all they got for 90 minutes ( granted 5-3 is more fun to watch most of the time ) . afterall a basketballgame with a score 81-83 doesnt mean it was more boring then a game ending in 98-105.
like i said b4 you yanks only think about scoring :P

soccer has strategy trust me , they have to pace themselves to avoid being exhausted after one half , they cant attack blindly or risk getting caught in a counterattack , they cant defend all the time because they need goals to win. they can only change 3 players during a entire game . like in football soccer has strats but the coaches can only adjust their strats once a game ( they have to shout updates to their players trying to get heard with the noise of 40000 fans in the background ) the rest is up to the "intelligence" of the captain and players . special plays are trained weekly and free kick specialists and a good keeper can turn a game . if they get to agressive they get expelled from the game causing problems for the whole team . even if one team has had the lead the entire game the other team can still win it in the last seconds ( example man united vs Bayern munchen Champions league final - 89 minute 1-0 for bayern 90 minute 1-2 for man U - still have great memories about that game ).

you can defend your goal with zones or man2man and that are only the most common strats .weather and wind and offcourse the refs and pure luck can make a great difference .

soccer isnt a exact science ,otherwise greece wouldnt be european champions .scoring a goal is more then outplaying the keeper ,you need to have speed , teamwork and technique to break through the defending lines and get past the keeper . a good coach can make a major difference ( example korea in the last world championships )

pele one of the best players ever invented several plays they still use now

about the pancies : it depends on the country you watch soccer , NO OFFENSE INTENDED but soccer in italy i highly technical but the strikers are closer to actors / supermodels then athletes . italian play is very defensive it even has a special name but i am to lazy to look it up now .if they think they will get touched in the penalty zone they dive like they are trying to land an oscar .
If you watch english soccer they headbutt , bite in ears , tackle people under the ground and once a french top player kamikazied a fan for protesting .they play with their heart and balls and very agressive ( called kick and rush )
Rooney , Thierry and many others can be tackled thrice in the penalty area and still stumbles on to get the goal he wants.

imo football and soccer are both great games but i am used to the pace of soccer thats why i prefer soccer

[DrunkenUno]

To each his own :).

[Karmashock]

i like most americans who arent uber nationalistic ( cough karma cough , US is a great country but not the best in EVERYTHING ) and most of their culture .
Something you must realize Tank0 is that the US is an ideological society. Our very culture is based upon our creed. This is not how most nations work, but it is the only way a nation with so many immigrants can function. We don't have a thousand years of history, a king, or land to base our culture on. We have our beliefs and those believes make you American or something else.

Seriously... if you took the core american beliefs to your heart, then any american would accept you with open arms. Don't do so... and no matter who you are we're going to consider you an outsider.

i only hate the imperialistic goverment and live in fear that the high nationalistic feeling will turn into fascisme if a second 9/11 ever happens ( study german history 1930-1939 ).
The US will never become Germany... if you did anything but a very basic study of either of our societies you would know that we aren't even remotely similar.


middle east
action must be taken but a solo rambo action isnt the solution
The Islamic world has been slowly moving to oppose the west for decades. All we are doing is heading them off by giving them a future in our world... minus that, they'll feel a need to make one of their own. Which could be dangerous. This is part of hegemony… if you see a threat, you can either destroy it utterly or integrate it into your system. This is done with all things. Consider the hip-hop culture. They were once a counter culture to the mainstream American culture. A protest to the hardships of inner city life. We have integrated them into our system so that they no longer are different. Look at “mtv cribs”… that is hegemony. In many cases this system self sustains without anyone ever even being aware of it. It’s almost like a living thing… a system that protects and sustains itself… at any rate… it’s nothing anyone should fight against… unless you hate mcdonalds… that is a portion of my southern Californian culture that has spread across the whole globe… there are lots of them in SoCal… McDs is the only one that really spread its wings though. We wouldn’t succeed if we weren’t desired… it’s the basis on which we operate.

korea
dont leave it up to china
China actually is a bigger problem. Like Islam, they're building for a confrontation. They'll likely challenge the western powers for regional hegemony in the next 30 years. We have to fact that with a massive alliance of nations. The US and Europe won't be enough. We'll need South America and most of East Asia to prevent conflict.

asia tsunami
little slow respons but thank god for those yanks
I don't think we were that slow... our ships sailed for that region of the world right away... the money took awhile, but wants money worth when you can't get the supplies there anyway? The ship showed up and told Washington what they needed... that money was dispatched...

europe
trust us we re not planning to destroy the US,we are still your best allies
We know and hope that you understand that we need you. It hurts us very badly when you pull political stunts just to win votes at home. France in particular told the US that they WOULD sign on to the Iraq invasion plan. However, they double crossed us at the last second in a political stunt.

Also know, that you need us. We need each other. Our power, relative to that of other rising powers in the world is declining. We can no longer afford to go it alone on anything. Which does NOT mean doing nothing. It means you coming along with us and the US going along with you. We need to do things... if we just sit around and talk we're fucked.


MVB about the soccer : it can be boring but dont call them pancies , they dont stop every 5 seconds , wear no protection , play in all weather and dont have a half army for every fase of the game :P
Nor is your game as hard on the body and frankly Football players do play in all weather... usually anyway... pretty common to see them playing in the show at any rate.


we in belgium have freedom of speech but you do risk jailtime if you deny the holocaust or wear a swastika ( we live next to germany so i think you can understand why ) but for once i have to agree with karma , US has more freedom then europe
More freedom then Spain?... is Spain somehow different, or was that guy just full of shit?
=====================================
Heh, Hitler thought he could control religion.... So did Stalin and his followers.... The outcome of the US trying to control it will be the same....
You make the mistake of comparing things that aren't comparable again. The US doesn't control things so absolutely. We make you 'want' to do what we want you to do. Stalin and Hitler just said "do it or I'll kill you"... we won't kill you. We're a capitalist country and so are good at making you 'want' our products and 'buy' them. Even religion can be used this way... but it will be the last to come into line.

Our first objective with religion is pacifying Islam so that it doesn't reject everything. After that, anything is possible.

Love and peace, Karmashock.

[Tank0]

The US will never become Germany... if you did anything but a very basic study of either of our societies you would know that we aren't even remotely similar.


==========

I don't think we were that slow... our ships sailed for that region of the world right away... the money took awhile, but wants money worth when you can't get the supplies there anyway? The ship showed up and told Washington what they needed... that money was dispatched...

=========


More freedom then Spain?... is Spain somehow different, or was that guy just full of shit?
=====================================

.poor masses living in fear with a common scapegoat and a very strong believe in their cause .

but i do have hope for the us as long as guys like drunk keep an eye on the governement , believe it or not but those "wacko's" from de NRA are the closest thing to your beloved founding fathers at this moment in time .

to quote RATM : What the land of the Free? whoever told you .... that was your enemy

====================

dont get me wrong the american people reacted and yes the ships got redirected immediatly but Bush could have won a major battle in the war on terror by immediatly returning from his holiday and talking to the muslims in the region . you win a war by winning the hearts of the people . dont forget the tsunami took more lives then hiroshima and nagasaki together - 100 000 of them are indonesian muslims

====================

you can compare spain and belgium like the US and Peru - two totally different countries in the same region . in fact the only things we have in common is a currency .

us states have 60% of laws and customs in common , we european countries are just beginning to calibrate our laws .
so to be honoust i wouldn t know if he was full of it

i do know the belgian laws

you must have/pay 12500€ to start a company .

if you want to hire an employe and want to pay him 1000€ a month it will cost ya 3000€ a month , the rest flows back to the state .

its illegal to refuse to vote.

we are forced to wear an identification card on our bodies every time we leave home from age 12.

its illegal to leave home without at least 2 euros on ya or a creditcard .

its illegal to own a gun unless you are a registerd sportshooter or a hunter and those permits get checked by national security

if you want to start a company you need a degree
( ie even if you are the best carpenter in the land its illegal to start a company without taking 300 hours of classes )
even if you have a higher degree from highschool you are forced to take the classes again because they only grant you your permit if you follow the entire 300 hours

swastika's are illegal but burka's are allowed

owning cannabis is illegal but smoking cannabis is legal

every nutcase can become a full belgian citicen in 5 days time , then that person is allowed to marry opposite or same sex partner in a foreign country and is then allowed to import his entire family without being required to learn the language but with full advantages of wellfare . no background check is required - no wonder two of the guys who killed the afghan leader during the 9/11 attacks where officially known as belgian reporters - watch out for belgian muslims , you never know who they really are

public transport , food and medical care is really cheap but gas costs 1.3€ /liter

you are taxed 60% of you wages , the rest gets taxed when you buy something with added value for about 21%

its legal to smoke in bars but a sigaret costs 0.2€ = 5 sigarets for a $

if you are unemployed you receive a "leefloon" ( wages to live ) 500€ a month for the rest of your life till you are 65 , then you get a pension payed by the younger working people till you die .

if you are caught speeding you have to pay fines up to 500€ , three times and you lose your permit but you are free to pay 1250€ to get a new one .

etc......... maybe you can understand why surrealisme was invented in Belgium ?????????

[Karmashock]

poor masses living in fear with a common scapegoat and a very strong believe in their cause .
You’ll forgive me if I just state that that is WAY WAY WAY too simplistic. Unlike the Nazis that based everything around their race, we base everything around our creed. The American creed is pretty simple… read the bill of rights, the declaration of independence, or the prime amendments to the US constitution. This is what we are. It isn’t about your race, religion, sex, or eye/hair color. Embrace those values and you’re one of us. Live in our country for five generations while not believing in the creed and you will be a citizen… but you won’t be an American. Our creed forbids us from even thinking like nazis, to say nothing of acting like them. To be nazis we would have to stop being Americans… and that just won’t happen.

I know it sounds cheesy… or corny… or something else that ends with a ‘y’… but the fact of the matter is that is the soul of this country… It is our culture and what makes us what we are. Anyone that says we are or could become nazis just don’t understand anything about us… it’s just not possible.

but i do have hope for the us as long as guys like drunk keep an eye on the governement , believe it or not but those "wacko's" from de NRA are the closest thing to your beloved founding fathers at this moment in time .
The NRA has basically won… I don’t know if you care or whatever… but the anti gun people are basically defeated… they’ll keep trying… but it’s pathetic at this point. When Al Gore went on his anti gun rant it KILLED him. He should have won big time. So John kerry made sure to ‘pose’ with a hunting rifle… I don’t think many people in Ohio bought it though… the first day of hunting season is a state holiday in Ohio… so they need more then a token pose to convince them… But you get the idea… the dems have retreated from that issue… which means its dead.


dont get me wrong the american people reacted and yes the ships got redirected immediatly but Bush could have won a major battle in the war on terror by immediatly returning from his holiday and talking to the muslims in the region . you win a war by winning the hearts of the people . dont forget the tsunami took more lives then hiroshima and nagasaki together - 100 000 of them are indonesian muslims
Well… I’m not saying we did a perfect job… But I think we did alright… We do care about helping these people and it’s not just a political stunt to gain support for us…

The local Muslim population may be swayed by our aid, but honestly we’re not counting on it. They’re highly indoctrinated with hatred toward us at this point… have been for decades… so we’ll take what smiles they throw our way… but we’re there primarily to help them.

As to Hiroshima… you can’t compare natural disasters and war deaths. I just think that’s a big mistake. Anyway, the bomb didn’t really kill that many Japanese… It was more of a psychological weapon then anything… we killed more by fire bombing Tokyo… The only thing that the bomb really made clear was that there was no hole deep enough to save you from US air power… we bombed places of lower population… mostly just to scare the Japanese into absolute surrender.

Then we showed them that we didn’t want to torture or abuse them… just live in fucking peace and prosperity.

No one ever believes us… *sigh*
====================
us states have 60% of laws and customs in common , we european countries are just beginning to calibrate our laws .
so to be honoust i wouldn t know if he was full of it
Well, we have a federal system. So our laws are hierarchal in that the feds have dominion over interstate and international laws… while the states can basically do whatever the hell else they want. However, they generally honor the laws of other States. So, if are wanted for a crime in one state, another state will arrest you for that… and ship you back to that state for trial. The only exception I can think of is that if you have a ‘homosexual’ marriage in one state, no other state has to honor that marriage… though most will at least recognize the implied legal bonds despite the title being withheld… kind of complicated… basically a homosexual marriage becomes a “civil union” in states that don’t approve.

i do know the belgian laws

you must have/pay 12500€ to start a company .

if you want to hire an employe and want to pay him 1000€ a month it will cost ya 3000€ a month , the rest flows back to the state .
Kinda pricey… That sort of thing is largely kept under control by competeing states. California for instance likes to abuse its businesses… but Nevada likes to take pissed off businesses from us… so if we piss them off too much all our jobs go to the mid east. :P

Arnold is largely fixing that by making California a better place to run a business. Competition… Perhaps the EU will work like that too… However, I have heard that the central authority is forcing the more business friendly countries like Ireland to raise their taxes etc… which is totally fucking wrong… that just allows the more socialist countries to keep doing what they do without having to worry about losing business to more friendly countries.

A quote from the old CEO of CitiBank: “Money goes where it is wanted and stays where it is well treated.”… A good line and something that the EU would profit by remembering.

its illegal to refuse to vote.

we are forced to wear an identification card on our bodies every time we leave home from age 12.

its illegal to leave home without at least 2 euros on ya or a creditcard .
That’s a weird one… so can you go to jail for being broke or homeless? I disagree with the way we deal with homeless people in this country… we just let them wander around the streets begging or living in shelters and begging. I think if you’re that low down then you should be taken off the streets and given an easy crappy job that at least pays for your food and self-respect. Something that gets you used to working and so out of the cycle of begging for drinking money. Just my take on it.

its illegal to own a gun unless you are a registerd sportshooter or a hunter and those permits get checked by national security
If you’re a registered sportshooter, can you shoot a guy that attacks you or breaks into your house? I hope so… Every time most populations in Europe are polled this stuff they generally say that “you should be able to shoot robbers”… but that never seems to make it to legislation… which tells me there is some light tyranny going on… a minority power elite… something…

if you want to start a company you need a degree
( ie even if you are the best carpenter in the land its illegal to start a company without taking 300 hours of classes )
… That’s fucking stupid… I’m sure you’re saying this because you think it’s stupid too… but wow… how fucking insulting is that! I bet most of the immigrants that come to your country never start businesses then… You don’t need anything to start a business in the US really… usually just a cheap “selling” permit… you can start a Corporation in most states for a couple thousand dollars… and that’s a proper corporation too… you can’t be personally sued if you company does something bad… only the company… Starting a business takes guts and savvy… that’s about it.
even if you have a higher degree from highschool you are forced to take the classes again

swastika's are illegal but burka's are allowed
Swastika’s are guaranteed to get you shunned by everyone in US society but white supremacists (there honestly are probably about 100,000 of the them in the whole country… of 300 million)… you can’t be arrested, fined, or sued… you’ll just be hated by everyone… and will be.

Burka’s are fine in the US… but you have to expose your face for id photos and if a police officer wants to see your face… and anyone can tell you to take it off if they own the store/restaurant that you’re in… that or leave… businesses are similar to a person’s home in this respect.

owning cannabis is illegal but smoking cannabis is legal
Cannabis can’t be bought, sold, owned, or smoked without a license from a protesting state government. Most of these are illegal licenses that the Federal government will likely invalidate eventually… but the states only allow the drug officially to people with terminal illnesses… like having a massive tumor or AIDs… That said, the illegal drug trade is very healthy and so anyone that wants drugs and usually get them by just going to seedy areas of town and looking for dealers.
(continued :oohoo: )

[Karmashock]

(here we go :kelet: )
every nutcase can become a full belgian citicen in 5 days time , then that person is allowed to marry opposite or same sex partner in a foreign country and is then allowed to import his entire family without being required to learn the language but with full advantages of wellfare . no background check is required - no wonder two of the guys who killed the afghan leader during the 9/11 attacks where officially known as belgian reporters - watch out for belgian muslims , you never know who they really are
That’s silly… we’re not a hell of a lot better… we used to take in better immigrants… but the ‘brain drain’ from Europe was killing European industry and science… so we promised to make it hard for Europeans to immigrate… them we did the same thing to the Asians… now we mostly get in people with no skills from mexico that have no interest in learning English and could give a rats ass about our values. We could fix this shit pretty fast if we wanted to. But business likes cheap workers and the public officials are either multiculturalists (ie any culture is the same as another, which violates the creed of the nation… but they’re spineless shit heads.) That said, our culture is very open and infectious… so after a generation or so they tend to integrate… it’s just hard to notice when a million more Mexicans come to this country every fucking year. The Mexican government is even passing out flyers telling the Mexican people how to evade our boarder patrols now… really… we should threaten to kill Nafta…

public transport , food and medical care is really cheap but gas costs 1.3€ /liter
yikes… I live in Los Angeles, so my gas is more expensive then most other places in the state/country… and ours only costs about 2 dollars a gallon… or 2.472 liters per euro (about .4 euro a liter... math is fun)… correct me if I messed that up… I’m assuming that a dollar is worth about 76 percent of a euro.
you are taxed 60% of you wages , the rest gets taxed when you buy something with added value for about 21%
The work of the devil… seriously… satan.


if you are unemployed you receive a "leefloon" ( wages to live ) 500€ a month for the rest of your life till you are 65 , then you get a pension payed by the younger working people till you die .
Ah, that would explain where you homeless people go… :p

etc......... maybe you can understand why surrealisme was invented in Belgium ?????????
If you’re even in the Los Angeles area, check out Santa Monica… they try their best to be Belgium… they’re just too small or legally forbidden from instituting that kind of stuff… they have rent control, high taxes, cops that are ONLY there to collect fines… the works… bastards. Every time I have EVER had to pay a ticket, it was to them… ever.

[JADezimar]

Cops in Elko County are like that. (Nevada)

[Tank0]

if you are broke or homeless you just have to visit a communtiy center , show your id and fill in a application . you get a room and some cash for three meals a day . the force you to take a job with the cleaning services or some other lowpaying job .after a while you can get a loan when you have proven yourself to get a place for your own and they take it back from future wages .untill you get back on your feet you are evaluated with drugtesting and are forbidden to own a mobile phone , gamble etc ..

well i am rather proud of our social system , if you are living on the streets in Belgium you just arent willing to fill in a application form ( mostly drugaddicts and illegal immigrants )

strictly the police is required to pick up every wonderer without money or papers and deliver them to a community center , but they can t be bothered

if you have papers but are drunk they are required to take you home but they never do because people took advantage .

the french speaking part of belgium is highly socialistic - former communit resistance during wwII . the dutch speaking part is mostly liberal and extreem right (25% - former collaberators ) . while fighting extreme right in flanders the french speaking socialist party has become the most powerfull party in belgium ( 60% speaks dutch - 40% speaks french but almost all french speaking people vote for the same party )

thats why we have a great social system and little freedom squashed between fascists and communists.

its illegal to shoot a burglar or a robber , unless they have shot at you first .
if the burglar is using a knife you are allowed to fight him with equal weapons . citizens arrest is impossible in Belgium . it takes 15 minutes to get the police to your home 'cause they re always busy with their bloody speedingtickets .

starting up a business is only possible if you know people or allready have saved a lot of money working for other people . they you get milked for the lessons and necessarry licenses . US and Belgian economy sounds like worlds apart.

every occupation has a minimum degree and a maximum degree . ie its illegal to hire people if they have a better or lower degree then stated - meaning i now cant accept a job as industrial cleaner because i have a certain degree and experience as IT technician

[Karmashock]

if you are broke or homeless you just have to visit a communtiy center , show your id and fill in a application . you get a room and some cash for three meals a day . the force you to take a job with the cleaning services or some other lowpaying job .after a while you can get a loan when you have proven yourself to get a place for your own and they take it back from future wages .untill you get back on your feet you are evaluated with drugtesting and are forbidden to own a mobile phone , gamble etc ..
I like that system... I think we should do something like that... what do you think?

the french speaking part of belgium is highly socialistic - former communit resistance during wwII . the dutch speaking part is mostly liberal and extreem right (25% - former collaberators ) . while fighting extreme right in flanders the french speaking socialist party has become the most powerfull party in belgium ( 60% speaks dutch - 40% speaks french but almost all french speaking people vote for the same party )
That can't be good for national integration... the french canadians have forced themselves on the rest of english speaking canada... they're universially taken to be annoying or worse.


its illegal to shoot a burglar or a robber , unless they have shot at you first .
if the burglar is using a knife you are allowed to fight him with equal weapons . citizens arrest is impossible in Belgium . it takes 15 minutes to get the police to your home 'cause they re always busy with their bloody speedingtickets .

So you can use guns if you bring one for the burglar?... sweet... I'd throw one at him, then shoot him in the head :D

*Unreal announcer says* "HEAD SHOT" :D

starting up a business is only possible if you know people or allready have saved a lot of money working for other people . they you get milked for the lessons and necessarry licenses . US and Belgian economy sounds like worlds apart.
You can start a business in the us with... like 5 dollars... Even broke illegal immigrents start businesses... mostly serving each other.

every occupation has a minimum degree and a maximum degree . ie its illegal to hire people if they have a better or lower degree then stated - meaning i now cant accept a job as industrial cleaner because i have a certain degree and experience as IT technician
That is completely insane... that's just begging for problems... why would they do that? There is no economic sense to that... that will just make your economy brittle.