The Electorial College

[vacio]

What do you peps think about our electorial college. Personally I think it's outdated. I'll get more into it if this thread takes off.

[/<yle]

i dont think its outdated, its what the founding fatheres envisioned. they wanted to perserve state rights. Otherwise, why would anyone care about ohio, or massachusus, or any other small insignificant state, they would all fight over big citys.

[vacio]

yes, but what happens when the college votes against public oponion. . .which has only happened 3 times in history btw. 1 of those 3 times was the 2000 election.


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I need to learn to spell. . .blah.

[Quesela]

It is the way our founding father's intended which is a good thing, but at the same time, it IS outdated. When the system was designed each state practically ran itself, the federal government didn't have near as much power, or control over most of our affairs, as they do now. back then, it would have been a state control over things like gay marriage and now look at us, pushing for a federal control over it. So what's my stance on this? Neither. i see the point in the electoral college, i just wish our state governments had some of the power they used to. A federal ban on gay marriage, FUCK THAT. I'm damn proud of my home state of MI being for it, and I stand for our right to choose as we wish!

so in essence. POWER TO THE STATES! Where the PEOPLE can decide once again! And it's true, the people have more power in state affairs than in federal.

[/<yle]

actually, 2000 was the 4th time its happened. Were not a democracy, were a republic. States themselves are straight democracys, but the federal govt is well... not that way. Look at the senate, every 2 years, only 1/3 of the senate is up for grabs. It was made that way to protect against populism and populist movements. Witchhunt anyone? it would take a hell of a lot longer to replace all those senators than in the house, where every 2 years their defending their seat

[tom]

The electoral college gives some voice to the smaller states that they normally would not have. However, I do feel that winning the electoral college votes should not be an all-or-nothing affair, but that the electoral votes be given to each president according to what percent of the vote they get in each state.

[Ummon]

The fact the the U.S. is a republic is what makes it great. Democracy is an easily-corrupted-into-anarchy system. The ancient greeks themselves (the inventors of democracy) observed that democracy easily degenerates in the "rule of the worst". Besides the inherent aristocratic bent in the greek school of thinking, this has been proven true many times in history.

You should be grateful that you have a republican system such as the "electoral vote" mechanism.

[vacio]

Thanks for correcting me on that. 2000 was the 4th time it has happened. In essence I think the college is outdated in that i don't beleive it should be an all or nothing systems/state. Rather i believe it would be better to figure out a system of dividing the votes.

[Karmashock]

if it weren't all or nothing, you'd have like 30 political parties. Furthermore, you could have people that only won 5 percent of every district win power on the national level.

I personally believe that about 5 percent of every population is a little nuts, they tend to believe in aliens and elvis being alive. Our system ensures that only the majority of each region is listened to.

In fact, I think it would be cool if they extended this to the counties... so that states were won by districts... but that's a pipe dream...

[Justice]

Popular vote.

Electoral college SUCKS.

[MVB]

I'm with Stealth.

This country is an amalgamation of ideals and peoples. Millions of uneducated inner-city slummers in the ghettos of New York and LA should not be able to use their Block democratic vote to influence the lives of businessmen in DC or farmers in Idaho.

The sword cuts both ways, as well ... in this election, if Ohio had gone 100,000 votes towards Kerry, Bush still would have had the overwhelming popular vote, and the Democrats would have lost. I'll wager 99.99999% of all democrats would be screaming ELECTORAL COLLEGE IS HOW IT WAS MEANT TO BE BABY if Kerry had 100,000 more votes in Ohio and Bush "lost" with a 3.4 million vote advantage in the overall popular vote.

It is EXTREMELY rare for the electoral to outweigh the popular, and has only happened once (recall Bush 2000). By having the electoral college, this nation ensures that the variety of desires of its people are met. The reason is, if it was pure popular, people in Utah, Idaho, Vermont and Maine would never get visited (note: I listed 2 democratic-voting and 2 republican-voting states) by anybody, because the bulk popular vote in NYC and LA, etc. would be the most important to candidates. By giving each state weight, even if it has a relatively small or sparse population, ensures that the American people as a whole have their collective voice heard in all its facets.

Nonetheless, I don't think you should necessarily have a president in office who is nationally less popular than the man he beats, but let's not forget that we are the UNITED STATES, not the AMERICAN NATION. Regardless of whether we'd do it differently if we could start again, this country is built on the concept of a national conglomeration of states, each of which has its own agenda and voice. Far be it from us to say that the voices of those in California outweigh the voices of the entire midwest combined. I think Stealth's idea of a parceled out electoral vote would be best, honestly, such that if a state goes 60/40 Rep/Dem, 6 out of 10 EC votes go Rep, and 4 out of 10 go Dem. As is now, a state can lose by one vote and be forced to have all of its political clout go to one candidate.

[Karmashock]

If you want 10 cities to govern the nation with impunity, then get rid of the electoral college.

If you want to preserve the will of the republic as it was founded, then keep it.

[tom]

MVB siding with my wisdom for once. It was only a matter of time.

MUWAHAHA.

[Justice]

If you want to preserve the will of the republic as it was founded, then keep it.

there's a reason why there are such things as "constitutional amendments," Karma.

[Polaris]

oo oo oo!
i read this in my us history book (and i doubted the public education system?)
the reason we have an electoral college is a comprimise: the people are too uneducated on the whole to know whats good for them, but we dont want the reps doing all the work. so we combine and get the electoral college.
and im gonna back the former of the two statements: in my school, about 50% of the seniors interviewed on why they were gonna vote for who gave answers like "'cause he's cuter" or "'cause i hate bush" or "'cause bush is a texan"
OMG
my image of the average american was butchered in that moment. this may not apply to many of you reading this, but FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, EDUCATE YOURSELF SO YOU KNOW HOW THIS COUNTRY WORKS. comon
if all the 18 yr. olds are that dumb, then i propose that we push the voting age back, because these poor people are apathetic about politics and make it a popularity contest (which is exactly the same with the class officers and student council. guess why i have negative respect for both institutions)

[Justice]

Yes.

The Founding Fathers didn't want the American people to choose the President directly because they were afraid that the American people might not choose the right President.

[Polaris]

well, think about it.
when youre 5 years old and think that electrical sockets are cool, do your parents let you lick them? justice, if they did, that explains a lot
the right pres is the one who will take care of this nation the best, and our founding fathers knew that, and needed to setup a protection against general uneducatedness
now, if i see that america is all about helping itself and the voting rate is like 90% and a politically active and aspiring 90%, then i would gladly say that the electoral college is useless. but i dont think america is mature enough for that, and im gonna tell her to keep her tongue out of light sockets.

[Justice]

"general uneducatedness?"

I agree with you. That's the entire South and Midwest of the U.S.

[Karmashock]

you can't win without the midwest... keep telling the people in Colorado and new mexico that they're stupid... insulting people has always been a good way to get votes in the past...

*dies from sarcasm overdose*, Karmashock.

[Polaris]

im not trying to insult anyone, but im just stating the facts: everywhere i look i always see more people voting based upon some petty thing. im really starting to worry about america. now, if someone wants to be educated, let them- i encourage it- put me in line to do it myself. america needs to be informed accurately, and i condemn the liberal media for obstructing that.
America, wake up, find the truth that you are not given. Take no substitutes; dont take the easy way out. Realize the power you weild in your vote, and that the president of your country is the most powerful man on the face of the earth. Be suspicious of everything, and take nothing for granted. Do this for your own sake, because America depends on your success and your contributions to society. Wake up, America- and take what is yours

[Karmashock]

I thought we just did... I mean... the liberal media didn't want bush to win that's for sure...

[Polaris]

very true
but i encourage educated voting, not just blind voting
i know some people go to the polls and have no clue as to how much their simple ballot means to this nation. its no light matter. of course, this doesnt really matter anymore, since the election is over, but you'll probably hear me saying the same things in 4 years unless theres some dramatic change in state, which wouldnt suprise me

[Justice]

People who put moral values ahead of healthcare and the economy are fucks.

People who put religion ahead of foreign policy are fucks.

WAKE UP, PEOPLE.

[vacio]

In fact, I think it would be cool if they extended this to the counties... so that states were won by districts... but that's a pipe dream...


I could go for by district, would even things out a little. Let me take this moment to restate myself. I think the electoral college is outdated in that I think it should be revised to reflect the popular vote slightly. By district would be a good way of doing this. I do relise that the reasons for the college are so that all states are recoginsed and so that the america people don't choose the wrong president. And now for the lame statement. . .but still, it needs to be rethought. Oh, and for the record I didnt' like Bush or Kerry, and subsequently didn't vote for either of them.

[/<yle]

Um, juicy, most of our nations universities are in the midwest. along with national labratorys among other things. However, citys are havens for rich people living in the upscale apartments, and the democratic slums. If we elemenate the Elecrotal college, jo bum would choose the next president, not the states. States give the power to the Federal govt throught the constitution (although with the N&P clause, its basicly unlimited power)

[Karmashock]

very true
but i encourage educated voting, not just blind voting
i know some people go to the polls and have no clue as to how much their simple ballot means to this nation. its no light matter. of course, this doesnt really matter anymore, since the election is over, but you'll probably hear me saying the same things in 4 years unless theres some dramatic change in state, which wouldnt suprise me
Is kerry a more educated vote then bush?... I mean... objectively?


I don't see a difference... Anyway the media didn't want Bush, and you said we should resist the media... so go us...

though honestly, I have no clue what you're talking about when you say "educated voting"... I'm pretty sure people knew what they were doing when they voted.

[Ummon]

People who put moral values ahead of healthcare and the economy are fucks.

People who put religion ahead of foreign policy are fucks.

WAKE UP, PEOPLE.

Moral values are the prerequisite for a good life. There is no value to freedom, sound economy or health without a good and widely shared moral system. You cannot live in chaos, and when one people or nation loses sight of what's right and what's not, not matter how free, rich or healthy it is, it's already decadent and doomed to fail.

And also, religion or the lack thereof concerns politics, since it defines (one way or the other and to a different degree, but still defines) the behaviour of the majority of humanity.

[MVB]

People who judge the entire south and midwest as uneducated are fucks.

Shut the fuck up justice, you're a know-nothing 15 year old without a clue on politics, yet who thinks he's God's gift to reason.

[Justice]

People who judge the entire south and midwest as uneducated are fucks.


Welcome to the Northeast's worldview on politics.

[LardGibs]

People who judge the entire south and midwest as uneducated are fucks.

Howabout just the majority of the south and midwest :D.

I think the importance of the electoral college is its most important feature in terms of error reduction and efficiency. If the majority of the popular vote was all that was required, it would potentially take much longer to determine the victor. By itself the electoral college is rather tolerant of unrecorded/uncountetd votes in obtaining a decisive outcome. I also agree that the greatest possible enhancement to it is to proportion the votes according to the popular vote split.

[Polaris]

Is kerry a more educated vote then bush?... I mean... objectively?
oh! not at all! im quite conservative, myself, but i am trying to say that ive been seeing a lot of people vote for the wrong reasons. i know a lot of you guys are not in high school anymore, and so this is probably not directed at your generation. but, i think that if we encourage voting, we also need to also encourage research into the key topics so we dont get people saying that "Bush is cuter than Kerry" or "Kerry is smarter than Bush" both of which are really irrelevent. the former, obviously, the latter is unproved, and you cant judge a person's mental capacity based on their language.

[MVB]

Just a few statistics on literacy and educational levels among some of the states stereotypically in the northeast and pacific which voted Democrat, and stereotypically in the south and midwest which voted Republican

Virginia vs New York

Virginia Mean literacy proficiency: 272
New York Mean literacy proficiency: 267
Virginia has a higher mean literacy proficiency

Virginia % of the work force in the top tier of jobs ... professional, technical and managerial
34%
New York % of the work force in the top tier of jobs
33%

% of Virginians which speak and read English "very well"
97% (you would think speaking it and reading it would be important to making informed political decisions)

% of New Yorkers which speak and read English "very well"
89%

Statistically, Virginia possesses more higher-educated individuals, speaks and reads English better, has a higher mean proficiency rating, and has a significantly higher rate of employment (67% vs 59%) ... employment has been directly correlated to a higher degree of functional literacy

OK, let's compare a couple other states;
Iowa and California

(so now we have a southern and northeastern, and a midwestern and pacific)

Mean Literacy Proficiency
Iowa -- 284
California -- 266

% in top tier jobs
Iowa -- 25%
California -- 32%

% Employed in Iowa -- 63%
% Employed in California -- 62%

Speak and Read English "Very Well"
Iowa -- 99%
California -- 84%

You could say that California's number is dumbed down by citizens who are Mexican immigrants and what-not, but to be honest, that would be a strike against the democratic party and your stereotype that uneducated and dumb people voted for Bush, because these Mexicans -- who couldn't even understand half of what the candidates were saying or what they stood for -- voted for Kerry and the Democratic party.

Look, there are stupid people voting for each party, and smart people voting for each party, but the stereotype that the south and midwest are generally dumb is IN and of itself a baldly ignorant stereotype.

If you insist I whip out the statistics on every single state, I will, but the facts speak for themselves.


Justice: This is specifically aimed at you; you're wrong in assuming the NorthEast and Pacific NorthWest are better educated and therefore more capable of making good decisions on candidates. These are FACTS, not your own whimsical fantasies.

[Ummon]

These figures are interesting.

[vacio]

Howabout just the majority of the south and midwest :D.

I think the importance of the electoral college is its most important feature in terms of error reduction and efficiency. If the majority of the popular vote was all that was required, it would potentially take much longer to determine the victor. By itself the electoral college is rather tolerant of unrecorded/uncountetd votes in obtaining a decisive outcome. I also agree that the greatest possible enhancement to it is to proportion the votes according to the popular vote split.


Don't know if this is what you were getting at, but the lenght of time to determin the victor is goverened by popular vote so that makes this statement null . . . "If the majority of the popular vote was all that was required, it would potentially take much longer to determine the victor." In general the EC wait for the popular vote to conclude before casting it's ballots. In some states this is a law b/c the EC is required by law to vote according to the popular vote. Thus, time for determining a victor is not shortened by the EC.

[DrunkenUno]

Wow, justice is a complete fucking idiot if he thinks Healthcare > morale values/issues.

Just... wow.

[vacio]

You got a good point . . . that is slighly . . .wrong.. . (trying not to call anyone an idiot)

[MVB]

Justice won't post in this thread again, apparently. Most likely this is a result of me owning him horribly with my stats on education levels ... if he tried to address this, he might actually have to drop some of his ignorance and face facts.

[Justice]

Huh?

No. I just don't think moral values are more important than the economy or healthcare. That's my personal opinion. Don't even try to change it, MVB.

[Karmashock]

The dems have NO HOPE of winning the south... don't even bother campaigning.

Keep this stuff up about stupid midwesterners and you can kiss them goodbye too... All it takes is to piss off the midwestern media and you're dead.

If the dems can't take some of the midwest, then you might as well just give up.


But please, continue to insult people and tell them that their democratic rights are unjustified because they didn't agree with you on some issues.

That wins friends... with people that like jack boots, Karmashock

[Shackled Phoenix]

What i think justice means by moral values is in the sense like bush's over exagerrated ideas of what is right and wrong. IE: His christian values.

Ya know what's funny? Kerry could have still won. Only 38 states legally require they're electoral votes to be cast toward the candidate which won that state's popular vote. Ohio is one of the states that allows it's representatives to cast it's vote against the people's choice.

[Karmashock]

go for it if you don't mind getting impreached from office...

[MVB]

Justice, read up. I'm talking about how you said that southerners and midwesterners were uneducated. I provided stats to prove that their level of education and literacy is actually much higher than the average education/literacy of the people in the areas which voted Kerry.

[/<yle]

yea... esp since both house and senate are red...

[Justice]

both house and senate are red

That = more pain for the next 6 years.

[Karmashock]

reps are projected to gain 6 senate seats in 2 years... ;)

[/<yle]

Juicy, more pain? howso, the house and senate have been read for the past 15 years buddy. Hell, they balanced the budget for clinton. All clinton did was rubber stamp them then tout it as his idea. Very charismatic and canny, but not my candidate. I dont like The war in Iraq. My friend lost his leg, and another was injured. I was against it before we went, but now that we have gone, we must finish the job. My friend did not loose his leg for naught. I have many friends in the military, many who are on the frontlines, near Faluja (sp) and many other places around the globe. Im scared shitless for them, but im proud of them. When i transfer, ill transfer for a ROTC scholarship and i will be in the military as a hated officer (thats for blacksand), at least, thats my plan. Im from california, and yes, its possible to see a liberal from 30 feet, sometimes further. I love sanfransisco and the bay area, jsut not the people. Bush and Kerry Both GRADUATED from YALE, WITH HONNORS, SO STFU, their BOTH SMART!

[MVB]

Look, facts mean nothing to Justice. He's already trying to dodge my facts showing a higher level of literacy and education in the South and Midwest, which he called "generally uneducated" or something like that.

[Karmashock]

Generally the farther you get from places immigrants flock to, the better the test scores...


That's all that's really going on here...


I'm more offended by them saying they're more intelligent... Why do you think people in the midwest think most people back east are fuckasses?... They do you know... They think people in cali are perverse show offs too... Thing is, I'm from the previous wave of immigration... my family farmed LA... all these other people just showed up...

We were invaded by :banana: ... Not much we can do about it...

I’m just saying that I can relate to the Midwesterners… despite the fact that I live in cali, I’m more like them then not.


Telling them they’re stupid only reinforces their prejudice against easterners… It’s extremely dumb.

[LardGibs]

Don't know if this is what you were getting at, ....
no, I'm saying that if the popular vote dictated the president, you have to count every vote accurately. With the winner taking all, you only have to count votes until a clear majority is established, often not having to count absentee/provisional/automatic reading machine jammed ballots. Counting every vote accurately at present would take months.

[vacio]

i see, so your saying our current system of counting popular votes is flawed so that it'd taked months to count

[Justice]

so your saying our current system of counting popular votes is flawed

I don't think he's necessarily saying it's "flawed..." I mean, imagine having to count 120 million ballots. I think he's saying our current system works fine, but if we decided the Presidency SOLELY on popular vote, we would run into a lot of problems.

[Karmashock]

the system of first past the post protects the majority by preventing a consistent minority from building up a national following. It is why we only have two parties... Think two parties is bad?... try having 10 parties... or one... neither is nice...

[vacio]

Thanks for clearing that up justice.

[/<yle]

Electoral college > Popular vote

just my 2 cents

[MVB]

That's not even worth 2 cents. You should pay me 3 cents just for wasting some of my life reading that.

[JADezimar]

I agree on the part that maybe The percent of the electoral votes You would get. Cuase Democrats Get states like NeW York and California almost every election and thats a huge chunk of the electoral votes. Despite how close the population voted for republicans vs Democrats. But yes you would need to absolutely keep an electoral college those media and congressman feeding you that it needs to be gone is being controlled by corporate america. Theres a book written by henrey ford. I think that was him? Anyhow he was in high rolling rich society where corporate officials of top companies got together and figure out what they wanted in the future then as to control and do there best to control political parties. Mostly The democratic party. Now the guy could be crazy or it could be true o0. But this states why Such weird laws are in affect like a rapists getting 2-10 whereas a theif stealing over 250$ can go to prison 10-20. Theyve done there best to elminate militia and invoke gun laws so that the people or the states highly disagree with something cant defend themselves or say hey i should have the right to defend my propety. Its pretty interesting. The title I think turns alot of ppl off from reading it. But the book isnt nearly about what the title is. Ive only read tiny parts of it. though o0 when a freind had it. I plan to get it read the whole thing.

P.S But only problem I c with this is its still very close to a overall popular vote. Ya states would still have more say. But more campaigning and importance would still be put on the larger states cuase they would still reap a large amount of there votes.