Race Balances Discussion

[Morpheus]

I"ll through one idea out - to help SM get on equal terms with orks. Adjust FC power cost to 50 and up the armory req cost to 225.

And I think Eldar will be fine vs SM when they can use plasma nades and sc again.

As to orks vs Eldar - making stormboyz heavy inf is a good idea, but they still need to suck vs assault marines and raptors. Problem is, both spiders and marines are heavy, so if you make ork better vs spiders, they'll get better vs marines and chaos, which they absolutely do not need.

[Lama Master]

Wow! that was confuzing, but i think i understand.

[Quietus]

Or they could change shootas to heavy inf, and reduce their melee capability while keeping their ranged goodness (and fixed shootas too).

Dropping FC power to 50 is a bad idea though. I have to spend 90 for my CL.

[ilia]

Increase cost of Plasma Rifles for SMs/CSMs to 60/15 from 40/10.

Increase Damage done by Vyper ML Vs vehicles and buildings. Reduce damage done by Vyper mL against infantry/Heavy infantry. Increase Reg. Dread Veh. cost to 3. Decrease Damage (not morale damage) done by Snipers. Slightly decrease the cost of assault squads/raptors by 5 Req. Slightly decrease Dark Reaper health. Increase Warp spider Sqd. cap to 3. Increase Banshee cost to 55 Req up from 50 req. Increase Build time for Wartraks slightly. Decrease cost of Rangers to 60 down from 65. Eldar webway gates cannot be built anywhere, but rather at the build control area of LPs/HQs. They still increase the control zone once built, though. (Eldar are already an uber-mobile race, and besides, thats the only known solution to various turret spams/rushes). FoF now available from start to all applicable units w/o the need for research.

TRANSPORT SOLUTIONS:

Space Marines/Chaos:

Starting Veh cap is 2, at start. Rhinos are 1 Veh. Cap. Rhinos are available upon Tier 2 Research completion. "Increase Veh. Cap" Research available only after Machine cult/pit is built. The only option to increase Veh. cap is to research "Increase Veh. Cap" research.

Orks/Eldar:

Starting Veh. cap is 2 at start. Transports are 1 Veh. cap. Transports are available after Mobilize for War Research/# of Banners required to build Mek shop ("Tier 2"). Waaagh Banners and Webway Gates increase Vehicle cap only after Mek shop/support portal is built, depending on number of Banners/Gates respectfully.



Thats the major stuff, imho. :toast:


EDIT: Changed appropriately to Patch 1.1 changes.

[Magus]

You cant have 1 cap for Falcons. Falcons, though not a combat unit, arent too shabby, just fragile.

[ilia]

Well, the above is a rough plan though.

You can have only 2 falcons before you can build more after you get the Support portal. 2 Falcons arent much, afaik. If Im to be mistaken, that it is to be done that you can only upgrade the falc's starcannon after the Support portal has been built.

[Weavern]

fyi patch up. b00n should be posting list shortly from readme.

[Psy]

fyi patch up. b00n should be posting list shortly from readme.


I read some of it:



ROFL @ Relic IDIOTS

A kind person - downloaded patch in under a min.

krakn
Member


Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Lakewood, Ohio
Posts: 36

Guys, that link posted for the .exe is the same one that the ingame patcher uses. Thus why it's so slow.

I've uploaded the patch to my personal webspace, not sure how long this will last. Hopefully some more people can mirror the file.

Be kind to my bandwidth.

Oh, and this is the English patch obviously... so don't download it if this isn't what you need!

http://s87055070.onlinehome.us/file...110-English.exe

If his mirror works I'll upload it to a yahoo public briefcase as well.

[laserflip]

i think banshees need lower reinforce times and more armor, maybe, to make them a liittle worse but not too much. also, more morale. reapers need a boost, because they actually can lose to similar ammounts of marines due to dying before they can even be set up.

[Psy]

rofl scout cheeze still owns - I went to move my squad and went 'w00t" where did the squad go? 8 rangers disappeared and enemy scouts infiltrated again

That is just fucking sad. Nerf the god damn scout allready.

[ilia]

Have patientce, psy. :)

At least the critical issues got solved. Hopefuly I wont be getting bsod every once ina while..


Edit: See changes to my first post. :)

[MVB]

If you nerf scouts, marines will rapidly blow in about 50 ways.

Just fyi.

[Psy]

Gimme a break mvb - you don't use them in mass which is the problem soy ou wont be affected wih any such nerf. When 5 of them eliminate an entire squad in one shot it is a bit unfair.

When people said nerfing council (which happened) would screw eldar they not only nerfed it they triple nerfed it when all that was necessary was a conceal fix.

Each sniper squad will kill 1-2 members because a shot is at 80%. 80% of 10 snipers is 8 members dead. There goes a squad. That is insane. Especially since scouts simply run away wash rinse repeat or retarget if a tac+fc is there to support them.

2 cap is a must or nerf sniper to level of rangers but not both.

[Weavern]

How about you just change their reload time and increase the damage. Put them back into the reload time of beta for snipers and keep retooling rangers. IMO it would be nice to see scouts not fire shots twice before a unit manages to get into range. (yes i know most units can close the gap in that time)

[MVB]

How about you send a squad of guardians at the scouts, losing ALL of their shots and losing one g-squad, then you use one or two squads of shees and kill them all, running in on fof. Or one or two squads of spiders. 5 or 6 sniper squads, early game when they can't be countered with like ONE vehicle, leave a marine with MAX 2 marine squads. YEAH 10 snipers will kill one of your squads in one round, but then they've got like 10 seconds before they fire again.

JHC Psy, I swear to God if each eldar unit was equal to or better than its marine counterpart you'd be happy, but not until then.

<3

[DrunkenUno]

How about you send a squad of guardians at the scouts, losing ALL of their shots and losing one g-squad, then you use one or two squads of shees and kill them all, running in on fof. Or one or two squads of spiders. 5 or 6 sniper squads, early game when they can't be countered with like ONE vehicle, leave a marine with MAX 2 marine squads. YEAH 10 snipers will kill one of your squads in one round, but then they've got like 10 seconds before they fire again.


Mvb is officially a relicboard noob.

[MVB]

No, that'd be you. If you'll recall, I never post in the relic boards, more or less.

Anyway, snipers can be used in such a way that they're exceptionally overpowered, but they can also blow. I spent yesterday gaming with TLSC who've picked up the assault marine/sniper move, and also had a 1v1 against someone using it. I watched as my buddies played slow as crap relatively to what I was doing in team games, leaving me high and dry while they got snipers and assault marines.

Drunk is officially often wrong and highly arrogant. You're lucky I still <3 you.

[ilia]

1 sniper (not one squad) can kill 1 infantry unit (whoose avg. health is 180). Suggestion: Decrease Sniper damage to ~100 instead of 350. Scouts should break squads. Not kill squads. Otherwise, the other morale breaker - flamers - becomes quite useless as it only breaks morale instead of klling units).

[MVB]

I find flamers more useful, b/c they break morale all over the damned place, and you don't have to wait for that damned sniper reload time that can make them so vulnerable.

IMO morale damage should be reduced for snipers, and sniper damage vs. heavy infantry should be cut in 1/3rds, that way you give them very specific duties -- sniper rifle for killing regular infantry, with some morale damage; flamers for breaking units; plasma for killing heavy infantry

[Magus]

Definately agree with cutting damage vs. Heavy Infantry. This even follows TT, considering a Rifle has a grand 13% of killing a marine.

[ilia]

Sniper rifles shouldn't be the primary tool to kill infantry. HBs should.


Another suggestion would be to make Snipers available only after Tier 2 upgrade.

[Psy]

Point is not that they can die MVB point is their efficiency at killing and the ability to mass. Shees survive to a bolter squad better ffs.

Idea for solution - 2 pop (addresses imbalance vs chaos) and bringing sniper in sync with rangers as they are now (addressess insane damage and morale damage as well as 1 shot one kill).

This is eerily reminiscent of a plasma nade killing an entire tac. that was wrong why is this ok?

http://members.rogers.com/bradoc4/executioner.gif

Cost in that image:

SM: Capped more points than anyone and spent 1300/100 on sniper pwnage.

Eldar: 630/100 for a dead shee squad + the health upgrade + warshout upgrade, time to build another, and another squad 630/100. Not to mention having to get stone for spiders now and spider squad itself. 2:1 advantage for SM in req and 2:1 advantage for Sm in req gathering.

1260/200+time+100/50 health + executioner upgrade serving ONE role vs 1300/100 available MUCH sooner and serving MUCH broader roles. Not only does sm have a req advantage of 5 scouts capping but eldar must replace that shee squad + build a spider or 2 to counter those all at a req disadvantage. Unfair.


And vs chaos - two reinforced scouts killing off heretics and cultists and denying req vs no penalty for doing so is ok too (still happily capping) ? I am not being biased towards eldar I am stating what is becoming more and more obvious to a lot of people. Sory MVB in that you are wrong and biased yourself.

[MVB]

Each sniper rifle costs 20 power, so where do you get 1300/100 for those snipers?

5 scout squads = 180 x 5 for just the raw scouts; that's 900 right there; add 25/15 for infil, you've got 925/15; now add 10 sniper rifles for 400/200, so that's 1300/215.

If you'll read up you'll see that I think they should basically have little to no damage vs. heavy infantry. As for regular infantry, hells yes they should kill them. Shees OWN Marines, horribly, especially in early game ... so hell yes Eldar should have to pay a little extra to handle both the marines and the scouts; the space marine is investing in both an armory and rifle upgrades, plus the cost of marines, so it seems reasonable that the eldar shouldn't be able to just wlak all over everyone with a couple squads of regular infantry (shees)... they're temptingly close to overpowered as it is.

I just think that if and when your spiders show up, they shouldn't die as easily due to their heavy armor. Read my most recent opinion on nerfs/boosts/whatever to sniper rifles.

As for the vs. Chaos, I wish my 1.01 recorsdings still worked; chaos can get out marines very quickly, basically by the time the first scout squad is showing up. One chaos marine squad + 2 or 3 cultist squads, and with the chaos lord on the way behind it, = gg scoutrush. Either kill it, costing the marine a lot of req he can't afford and costing you very little, or it has to pull back, and you can go on happily capping yourself, OR you can just run in and kill the marine. I've had good chaos players do it to me, and I am pretty darned good in the scoutrush and/or scout harass.

[Psy]

So if my shees took down 8 marines to 3 with broken morale in one hit you'd be ok with that :)

Thats 1 squad gone in 2 seconds. There is absolutely nothing that effective in the game. And I can not run away from your scouts but you can dance my shees.

Eldar are a hit n' run race? Well I don't think anything in the game compares to 5 infiltrated scouts in terms of hit n' run on the infantry side.

As for chaos - a lot of chaos players disagree, and some agree. I do know FL can get that squad up quickly however on smaller maps FL is exactly what allows SM scout to dispose of the heretic quickly and then harras some more. So that blessing of FL is not a blessing at all it's a risk.

[Mistress Crystal]

Scouts shouldn't be nerfed.

I think scouts are what keep SM in balance. Think about it...

CSM = SM... EXCEPT... CSM get 2 extra men per squad, get better melee damage, get more skills in their armory, and get the same weapons from their armory for the same cost. Plus CSM get horrors/PSM tier 1.... plus grenade launchers can bombard ground outside, to just inside sniper range. Raptors... cost 20 more req to buy, and 10 more req to reinforce are far more dangerous and hard to kill than assault marines...


While we're discussing nerfing SM in order to make them more vulnerable to eldar, what're we doing to them in this scenario? :P

Personally, I think the balance is great. Eldar still have gigantic advantages even with snipers out there.

[ilia]

If scouts are to be 2 pop, than I want 6 members per squad max. 3 Members @ start, but the cost remained the same (That would be 30 per scout).

Just a suggestion.

[Psy]

Actually crystal, chaos has worse aim - and i say that with reserve as this was 100% true pre patch. They are meant to be outshot but not outmeleed by sm even 8 vs 10.

Whatever the case, sniper rifle is a problem and pop comes into play because it allows massing.

I agree it is difficult to balance them and 2 pop may be overkill but how else do we nerf the sniper so that sm does not have to mass to break morale. I am trying to be fair - in mass sniper is god. With 2 pop Sm will not be able to mass however, there may be some problems with posessed (less marines) and ork which are already owning sm.

Maybe make sniper damage the same vs light infantry as is vs heavy? Shooting at 8 Sm will kill 1 second shot will demoralize. Shooting at eldar will demoralize and kill 80% of shots fired. The more i think about it the more thatseems right. keep everything as is but make damage vs light = damage vs heavy when sniper is concerned.

[MVB]

I think they should reduce sniper damage vs. heavy. This makes sense, because light infantry shouldn't be able to charge high powered rifles with ANY chance of success. Make heavy infantry MUCH tougher vs. sniper rifles, reflecting both how it is in tt and would be with advanced armor in the 41st millenium, and also accurately affecting the game. Now a good eldar player CANNOT just mass one aspect type (i.e. shees) to kill off marines. They HAVE to be versatile, just like the marine is being versatile by teching to snipers AND building marines .... if he doesn't build marines as well, he's uberfucked by just spiders; if he builds marines AND snipers, it seems reasonable and about the same in cost-analysis for him to have to build spiders and shees.

As is now, though, snipers really fuck up heavy infantry as well, and that's just inappropriate. Also, thinking in popcap terms, you can have 3 shee squads for the popcap cost (effective capcost) of 5 sniper squads, and you can in that circustance lead with one (which will die), then fof in with the other 2 and totally own the snipers.

[Psy]

Same argument used vs WS from ork players complaning storm boyz do nothing to stop them, yet everyone seems to think that same number of jumps and an extra speed boost is not enough.....

I do believe the damage is too great and if on par with damage vs heavy it would be fine.

[Morpheus]

Well, I guess me and mistress are the only ones thinking that snipers are ok they way they are. I use them all the time, and I usually mass 6 squads if facing Eldar - how else I'm supposed to deal with reapers? Massing assaults doesn't work - I have to jump them right in the enemy lines, where every single enemy unit is shooting at them, while reapers run away and assaults just die. You can't walk on 6 snipers easily, but the same is true for reapers.
As for making them worse vs heavy inf - I don't mass snipers vs heavy inf, simply because no matter how good the snipers are, heavy inf is still much > snipers. It takes two shots(that didn't miss) to kill 1 heavy inf unit, after that scouts sit and reload while being obliterated by enemy fire.
Pop 2 - only if scouts reinforce to 8, get 3 weapons, get a seargent, and cost 35 each.

Overall, people forget the fact that if not for scouts the way they are, SM would loose to every single race every single time in 1v1.

PS : the reason snipers are so good vs Eldar is that Eldar builds light and med inf vs SM, which dies quickly to snipers. If snipers suck vs light inf, then why getting them at all?
Flamers - I usually get more flamers than snipers vs ork - demoralizing them quickly has much better effect then killing single units.

[Bentusi]

whenever I play sm as Eldar I usually keep at least 1 squad of ws around on standby to jump in the second i see scouts. Of course they instantly get the fire of everything the sm has but they usually wipe out 50-60% of the scouts before dying while my repears are cleaning house

[MVB]

I don't think scouts should be nerfed AT ALL. In the sense of agreeing, my posts basically are intended to provide what I view as the furthest possible procedure even considerable for nerfing them.

Also, psy, I used NO snipers and barely any scouts earlier on you, and didn't have many problems. I'd have had many more problems with your units if I'd tried going sniper scouts, b/c after I knocked out one of your g-squads, your farseer and other guardians would have fucked me.

[Psy]

I guess I can't win this one either. Way too much of a victim complex with SM. Reduce it ve heavy? So in other words do even less damage to SM/CSM while completely owning light. LOL. but speaking of TT, i'm no expert shouldn't ranger rifle absolutely own compared to sniper?

Fire prism can jump out and away 3 times - oh no nerf it
WS can jump one lesst times than StromBoyz Oh no nerf it
BL owns vehicles oh no nerf it..
Dcannon owns morale - oh no nerf it

Scout executes a member with each shot - ah well then thats ok. I think I'm beginning to see drunk's point about this game. It sucks bloody shit.

And morph please, you generally have 4-5 sniper scouts and are just dicking around picking shit off and its sad to see just how efficient you are at it too, shouldn't that tell you something about sniper? At least I opened my eyes and stopped using bugged aspects of eldar and saw where i was wrong.

And don't act like its a game winner, prism was nerfed because it was unfair and way too effective not because it won games.

Massed sniper shot on eldar is NO different than a bugged 3x plasma granade on tacs. Has the exact same effect - owned squad. I can't believe people I consider sober can't see that. It's way too fucking effective.

[The Fell Hand]

I personally don't know what could be done to balance them really. Snipers are quite effective in numbers...as I would expect they might be in the real world =P.

As for dicking around with them, and being quite effective nonetheless, either strategy hasn't evolved enough around sniper fire...or psy may be somewhat right.

sniper vs main force misc - guards, reaps, m, csm, whatever

A ) get in range, shoot them.
B ) if they follow, run until they stop following, press q (Stop) and shoot them again...
C ) If they keep following like a smart player, run into cover, heavy if possible. Use that so their bolters/lasguns etc will do almost no damage to you -> shoot them one more time.
D ) same follow concept, if they run, follow them and shoot again
E ) if they continue to follow, run through the cover so they're slowed down and are no longer in range...keep running until they clear the cover and come towards you. You'll have reloaded, so shoot them just as they come out of cover...now keep running. You just cost them...well, at around 100+ req per pair of scouts, if they did the best thing and kept following.

And this is just for micro abilities limited to one group of scouts running in one direction. They can't really sit in cover because that will get them jumped by assaults. Squad will lose out to assaults because the numbers were previously depleted by sniper fire. Also, snipers are STILL shooting at them, and they're broken. When that squad is broken, snipers fire at a squad outside cover. Broken. Broken squad duking it out with assaults flees out of cover - shot by snipers, squad gone. assaults hth another squad, reducing ranged damage from other squads shooting at you, some of which are broken from sniper fire, and the rest you can systematically break one by one with sniper salvoes. And once again this is all done with relatively basic micro ability.

Of course this isn't foolproof or anything like that by any means, it's just an example of an average confrontation between snipe+assault and a more "normal" force. Nothing more. Just a typical situation, where snipers a key factor

I don't personally know enough and haven't played enough of all 4 races to say that snipes are heavily imbalanced and equivalent to cheating, but I will comment in that they are very effective when used properly (aka using scouts faster movement, infiltration, and spread out over the field using cover).

[Psy]

You pretty much got it hand its a more complicated situation than that but hit and run or shielded mass sniper simply owns entire squads per shot.

[The Fell Hand]

Yeah that's evidently a select situation, merely an example. I'll admit it's comical to see entire squads disappear in volleys but perhaps it is excessive. A common and effective tactic to control the map is to periodically sweep the map with groups of infiltrated snipers, popping out to make other small sized squads, or even fast attack inf (assault, storm, raps, spiders), disappear, and snicker as I hope he wouldn't notice because i was also sniping a listening post of his first :P. Limit the number of total sniper rifles maybe? Sticking scouts at 2 pop would mess everything up good, so I'm out of ideas really.

[DrunkenUno]

http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread.php?t=46727

[JADezimar]

Well even know this is all about balance issues I think I just learned more than Playing against ppl 3-5 times :P I havnt look around enough but maybe a thread about strategies and to use what units for what. Would be useful o0.

[MVB]

Psy, if snipers are as good vs. regular infantry as vs. heavy infantry; i.e. nerfed vs. regular infantry, then Eldar (for instance) will then have multiple counters for snipers. As is eldar HAVE to get spiders, then get the snipers to waste a shot with their lord or a g-squad, then jump in and kill the snipers/most of the snipers with warps. If you nerf sniper damage vs. regular infantry, then an eldar player does not have to diversify -- which is EXACTLY what the marine player HAD to do in order to have snipers + marines + fc -- and can kill a marine with, say, JUST banshees en masse. As is, he has to use 2 warp stones, which is roughly equivalent to the marine player having to build an armory instead of just going hard for marines + scouts.

Nerf damage vs. heavy infantry for snipers so that they CANNOT counter your spiders with the snipers themselves, enforcing the counter approach, and preventing unbeatable snipers.

Also, this would not nerf marines vs. orks, which is important considering how ridiculously overpowered orks already are vs. marines.

[Magus]

Ibut speaking of TT, i'm no expert shouldn't ranger rifle absolutely own compared to sniper?

Sniper Rifle: Range 36'', Strength X, AP 6, Heavy 1, Hits on 2+

Ranger Long Rifle: Range 36'', Strength X, AP 6, Heavy 1, Hits on 2+, AP 1 if a 6 rolled to hit.

So, no, not really. They just have the 1/6 chance of completely ignoring armor.

However, Rangers are supposed to have the scouts ability to move over difficult terrain (cover/neg cover)


As for those who are complaining that scouts being 1 cap is wrong, that to my mind SMs major racial advantage: Flexibility. They can cap and attack in addition to having versatile squads.

For things to balance them: possible damage nerf vs. Heavy Infantry. Another that hasnt been brought up yet: possibly decrease the range.

[DrunkenUno]

The fact that they are 1 pop and build SO fast compeltely owns chaos, which in itself is a completely different problem than the mass snipers vs eldar.

[Magus]

I think the response to that is a Chaos thing... when (if) they fix the overnerfing of cultists (it takes 2 seconds longer to reiforce a cultist than it does a Marine), that should even it out a bit more. In addition, I think that Demonic Aura around their buildings is supposed to do something, but a .LUA typo is stopping it... can't remember where I read that...

[Weavern]

Keep in mind the reason cultists take so long to reinforce is a two fold reason. The first being the faster they reinforce the more they screw over kill animation invunerabilities for melee deaths. Secondly if they are super reinforcing you get back into the beta environment where a single cultist hord on overwatch could reinforce faster then units could kill them all resulting in an inpenetrable wall of melee.

To reiteriate my point on this, 2 pop for scouts is a bad idea as you would need to completely rebalance other areas of them. If snipers are the problem adjust snipers directly, if scouts are too powerful then adjust them accordingly. Perhaps lower their speed or change their damage. 2 pop is a dirastic change similar to what was done for terms and oblits which cut out a full unit from both and dirastically changed how many you could utilize in relation to other infantry units.

[Morpheus]

Snipers kill heavy inf with 2 shots, gls knock down heavy inf with one shot......

I use snipers in all games and never found them to be overpowered, and why do I loose them in most games I play and build tacs instead? Oh, wait, that's because their balancing factor is so ridiculously slow reload.....

[Quietus]

I play chaos almost exclusively, and I have never been completely owned by just mass scouts/snipers.

I have no problem with scouts the way they are.

[Psy]

"major racial advantage"

Specialization and efficiency is eldars - yet god forbid WS owns ork at same rate sniper owns eldar btw 30sum damage per sec.... hell no nerf it.

Reapers are equally effective. So are banshees.

Problem seems to me to be that light infantry is TOO light.

[MVB]

Again, psy, if you make snipers not nearly as effective vs. regular infantry, marines are uberfucked.

That's what makes the ork problem so difficult. What they NEED is an earlier available heavy infantry to counter spiders with. If you nerf spiders, eldar get uberfucked by orks.

Same applies here; make the COUNTER for snipers -- warp spiders -- tougher vs. the snipers (by nerfing vs. heavy infantry damage for sniper rifles), ensuring a viable counter. Don't make other units able to counter them. You should not be able to *micro* your regular infantry well to kill a MASSING of a deliberate regular infantry counter, but SIMILARLY anti-regular infantry (snipers) shouldn't be able to mass even and take out THEIR own counter -- which is heavy infantry.

You're looking at this from the "I don't want to have to tech WS + Shees, I want to only have to do one," which would be imbalanced, b/c marines inherently have to go 2-3 tech routes to get snipers and marines.

[Weavern]

Quietus I could argue that you are not playing small enough maps to face the issue of chaos vs scouts. But I more likely conceed that you are better then the average player when dealing with scouts on small maps. They are not immediatly an overpowering issue scouts vs chaos however I find they are an annoyance that on small maps the value of cultists are hard to successfully engage scouts while there are additional scouts pooring in while others engage you. Relistically he would have spent more money on the excess scouts but if he managed to kill a worker or two or disrupt you while capping he is much further ahead. Ideally you want to tie up the scouts with cultists or get a marine squad or similar out but depending on when he engages you will be at a dissadvantage. Of coarse if your workers are not the target it should be easy to regain footing and come back for a win.

[Quietus]

I've faced it many many times on 1v1 maps, and some 2v2.

Valley of Khorne is pretty small.

I've got into a habit on 1v1s to put up a bolter turret (FL) right off the bat, since nearly everyone will rush, and 1 bolter turret will destroy any rush. CL soon follows, and then my main force. With manual targeting there is really nothing a rush can do against it.

[Weavern]

Unfortunatly that seems like the only alternative is to get a turret up and spring for an early gen to stave off most modest rushes. I had really hoped that there were easier ways then getting a turret, oh well.

[JADezimar]

I dont know when I Try to use waaag or turrets It generally is a jsut a minor rock in the path of an insane computer. Ive beat an insane computer with space marines vs space marines on the very first map 2 player with teh 2 enctrances to base and the bases are side by side. Ive come close with orks but even 8 hours straight I still couldnt get what was wrong with my build order. Eldar I havnt played much but It seems Im more of a natural with eldar then space marines, then Orks ... But I think orks intrigue me the mosts o0. Chaos Marines, just seem to have alot of drawbacks I dont care for like there starting unit blows.

[Psy]

Just played a smaller map, both my points decaped 2 guards fighting 3 scouts before they even finished capping. My aspect JUST finished


While enemy had 2 points capped.


Thats a 1 pop problem at 2 he could not have done that.

That fair towards eldar/chaos? BS.

[Quietus]

With 2 cap he could still have 3 scouts fighting you that soon, and 1 scout capping points for him.

[Morpheus]

Straight scout rush is risky, it slows down SM just as much as it slows down Eldar/Chaos.
And, hey, if scouts are 2 pop, like guardians are, make lps and gen cost the same for SM as they cost for Eldar. Plus, of course, give scouts nades, leader, and reinforce to 8, like guardians are.

[Psy]

With 2 cap he could still have 3 scouts fighting you that soon, and 1 scout capping points for him.

Yes but when beat he wont have pop for tacs + fc to follow up on it.

Pop 10 as is 5scouts-servitor-tac-tac-fc
Pop 10 with 2 cap 3scouts-servitor-servitor fc-tac

which means i have 2 scout squads less to worry about if one is capping in each scenario. And that makes it beatable. And if he goes all out scouts I can go all out scout defense. The problem is if I go scout defense tacs mop up, etc.

Tired of this tho. The points were made, my guess is all the sm players will have it their way.

[MVB]

It's beatable as is, Psy, and it's one of a space marines' BEST moves in 1v1. You're arguing to make one of their BEST moves eminently (and this would be quite eminently) beatable. They're not even that overpowered; this has spread from snipers are overpowered, to scouts in general are, and is once again you *seemingly* wanting marines to be subpar to eldar in all aspects. Here is a marine strategy which has a solid chance against an eldar player (unless he just fast pops a spider squad, which is doable) and you want it to be nerfed so that it's really not plausible, b/c to send all 3 2pop scout squads would leave you capping and lp'ing 0 spots so you'd have to send at most 2, which is worthless against a good eldar player, whereas 3-4 scoutsquads is tough for an eldar player but still quite beatable. Here, make scouts able to have 8 scouts in a squad, a squad leader, grenades, etc. as pointed out above. Then they merit 2pop, but you know as well as I do that a squad with a MAX of 4 members and only 2 heavy weapons (that aren't all that heavy) at most is not worth 2pop.

[Psy]

Straight scout rush is risky, it slows down SM just as much as it slows down Eldar/Chaos.
And, hey, if scouts are 2 pop, like guardians are, make lps and gen cost the same for SM as they cost for Eldar. Plus, of course, give scouts nades, leader, and reinforce to 8, like guardians are.

scout +LP = 90+100 = 190 for sm

guardian +lp = 120+80 = 200 for eldar

free slugga +90LP = 90 for first lp

ork are the cheapest not eldar give it a rest.

[MVB]

Psy, omg. 4 guardians kill 2 scouts. You're counting 2 scouts vs. 4 guardians.

[Psy]

MVB when i havent even finished capping two points (first almost done-second at a third) and have 3 scouts in base with aspect JUST finished while SM has one capped and second starting...pull spiders out of my ass?

And that squad will not die to two overwatched guardsbefore it decaps. And overwatched guards wont allow for Lp...etc its extremely unfair.

[Quietus]

Guardians also have a better melee attack than Scouts, have you tried CC against them?

[JADezimar]

I know I dont know that much. But from my little experience. Massed guardians will tear apart massed scouts early on game. I could be wrong but very early game I just havnt been able to make use of scouts vs the computer like everyones complaining about. Plus 1 full set of gaurdians vs 1 full set of scouts gaurdians win hands down. stop capping your thingy and shoot back first :P. I think the whole problem with scouts rush in my opinion is it sounds like most ppl just arnt ready for the rush. Not that there race cant handle it. There is no reason a race should be able to handle a rush there not prepared for.

[JADezimar]

Atleast the game isnt like zero hour for command and conquer that ruined command and conquer. Certain generals could rush certain generals even fi you spent every resource possible to build up a rush stop certain generals would just really toast off the other.

[Psy]

JAD. how many games have you played?

Prepare for this.

Your aspect portal has just completed.
Your first guardian is capping one point - at about 75%-80%.
Your second guardian is capping second point at about 20%.
You have 1 scout at 4 members in your base shooting at the first guardian which loses two members finishing the point. 2 more scouts show up, third guardian squad finishes. Scouts do NOT die while decapping your points effectively leaving you at HQ for resource only.

Now you have spent all the time fighting scouts which requires you to overwatch guardians. You win scouts are dead! woohoo.

Just one problem, in that time sm has also built one FC and 2 tacs which walk in for a gg. Why? because 1 - he has the pop free to build them while you fight, and because of the speed of scouts he has allready capped 2 points, working on third.

So to recap:

Eldar loses points and req fighting scouts before even capping ONE point. Sm happily caps two.
Eldar starts recapping the points with 3 guards left standing and no req because to beat scouts overwatch has to be used (which also left no req for LPs, let alone a banshee or a farseer) - in walk 2 overwatched tacs + FC.

Same applies to chaos but chaos can stand toe to toe with a fast tac using fl so at least it's not a steamroller.

The only way to fight this is to go all out 4 guardians, overwatched from the get go which means no req until all points near you are capped, and know that it is coming. you can not possibly get spiders in that time even if going straight for them.

The only way to defeat the prism rush is to know its coming - fixed, prism jump got nerfed.
The only way to defeat the sc rush is to (ironicaly) scout rush because you know its coming, fixed council got nerfed (virgin council without witchblade now does LESS damage than banshees - only exception being VS posessed).

SC rush was eldars "best move", that ability has been nerfed in 1. sc does less damage now, 2. power cost makes it very late, 3. sc beats banshee damage only upon getting witchblades.

Old guardian tech tree with plasma after aspect would have defeated the scouts faster potentially, but that 1. got moved to after soulshrine, 2 takes longer to research.


The problem with scout rush is that is is a win by default for sm. Even if scouts are defeated, because of how cheap they are and fast to build/move and the fact nothing eldar has will stop them from decapping AND kill them (its one or the other), and the fact sm ends up at +32 vs +20, then +44 vs +26, the scout is simply overpowered in its current state. After armory scout becomes even more of a pain as in mass it executes entire squads with each sniper shot. As if eldar has squads to waste after that harras.

VS eldar - scouts for the win, support them with a tac here and there and you are set. Sm fanbois may find this ok, but i wonder what they would say if cultist nade did more damage and chaos could just go 3-5 cultist harras at 1 minute mark while decapping and suffering no cap penalty of their own, and then outright executing entire squads on one hit, while moving fast enough for sm to not be able to catch them.


Quiet: Guardians should beat scouts in ranged as well but:

Scout ranged 11-13 melee 6-8 HP 250 Accuracy 85%
Guardian ranged 12-16 7-12 HP 170 Accuracy 70%

Say they all hit with each shot (not moving) guards die faster and thus economy is hit more. Scout is 15% more accurate, and has ~32% more armor. Moves faster (20m/s vs Guard 16m/s) as well so it can dance faster as well. You will never catch them in melee at = skill level.

Give me a break. :disagree:

[ilia]

Psy, have you checked if the latter is true also vs other races?

If not, than this is a mostly Eldar problem. If so, Plasma nades should be then available on start, as you said yourself that if they were, you could easily defeat the scout rush.

[Psy]

The number 1 on 2v2 ladder player agrees with me - he is chaos, true and a bunch of people as you saw on dowreplays - agrees with me, a lot of sm players agree with me because if they don't scout rush themselves they are fucked. The only people that don't care are ORK players.

FFS drunk of all people agrees with me that should tell you something....

And ilia if plasma was available at start eldar would mass guards anyway and wtf pwn sm in return. That is NOT a solution.

[JADezimar]

I had a 4 squad of of scouts. Lose to 9 guardions only killing maybe 2-3 gaurdions whats the costs of the gaurdions ?

[MVB]

9 guardians costs 270, 3 guardians lost costs 90
4 scouts costs 180, 4 lost costs 180

Psy, you should try using fof and sending a 9-man g-squad over at the BEGINNING of the game to the SM base and killing his servs/uncapping his points/forcing him to focus all his scouts on you. It'll have the same effect, except if you're quick about it, you might just kill off all his shit and fuck him up horribly. Meanwhile your other g-squad or two will be capping points unmolested b/c he'll have to spend all his shit to kill your 9 overwatching g's

[Psy]

yes MVB thank you for proving my point. I can do that - BUT with a cap penalty of not being able to cap until 32 seconds into the game moving slower point to point. And all I can do is attack you with one 9 member guard which will do shit all vs your 300HP servitor regenerating at a rate of 8/sec and that moves faster than a guardian (same as scout 20m/s). I can't even catch it.

So for clarity let me attack you with TWO overwatched guards for same shoot and decap effect, and I'll ignore the fact 3 scouts overwatched will potentialy win vs 2 guards overwatched.

-------------------------------------------

If i do this with 2 guards

I can't attack you before 32s + time to get there at 16m/s and i can not cap any of my points until 48s into the game. I face an im-posibility of killing a servitor with 300 HP regenerating at 8/s


if i do this with THREE scouts:

Takes me 36s + time to get there at 20m/s and I can start capping my points at 48s mark. I face a possibility of killing a 175 HP bonesinger with regen of 2/sec (1.01) and now 1/sec in 1.1.

Once your chapel finishes you have access to tacs - as opposed to my uber rangers. If I want spiders, well i have to research them first.

Scout speed really makes a diff doesn't it. All that for my 6 pop guardian cost at 810 vs your 4 pop costing 640. All that with your ability to get a tac and an additional scout to defend vs my overwatch of paperthin guards 3 of which at full cost 810 +100 for aspect and if I had researched fof absolutely 0 req to stop you from decapping. Whereas 4 overwatched scouts 640+250 seem to put you in he same boat - two guards won't decap all 3 points you have +26 at the bare minimum, I have +20. That tac is not that far away especially if you dance and not lose any scouts - I can't catch them without fof anyway.

There are a lot of if and and buts one can throw at this but the whole point is whether attacking or defending - Sm has it way too easy.

[Morpheus]

Psy, very early scout rush works ONLY vs Eldar and does not guarantee a win. It's how Eldar responds to it - that's what would cause them to loose. Sure, SM can send 2-3 squads at you without them capping anything, but the thing is, you can build on lps while they're being uncapped. This makes lp rush useless, as Eldar spends less money for lps and can build lp as soon as point is taken. If he runs away and you don't want to build lp - cancel it. And also, sending scouts straight to the enemy base really hurts SM economy. They have to cap like crazy to get all the req they need for tacs/lps/gen/armory. And without those, SM is nothing to any race.
And another point - I played some 1v1 vs Eldar, I watched the replays, comparing the economy. You see, I also thought that SM has an advantage in req due to scouts. If SM uses 3 scouts to cap points non-stop, he does have some advantage at the begining. But as soon as lps start to go up, Eldar gets going alot faster than SM. SM normally will not build 3 servitors if going 3 scouts - too slow. Eldar almost always builds 3 bonesingers and sends them to build lps as soon as points are available, while servitors have to play catch-up with scouts, and lps go up alot slower. So, scouts are annoying, but I don't think they're overpowered.

But, if anyone wants to bother with this, give me what you would like scouts to be. And don't tell me just "2 pop and that's it" - it's ridiculous, SM will never have any chance vs anything like that. I'll mod the lua file and then we all can get it and have us a lab game - people who think that nerfing scouts is good will play with nerfed scouts and see what they think about that.

[ilia]

Reduce scout speed, and make it move slower in cover - just like any other unit. Im getting annoyed by my scouts being brave sportsman running stright into the front and getting killed as a result.

Im certain that not many ppl will bitch about it. I certainly wouldn't.

[Weavern]

It primarly works vs eldar because eldar is so frail. Its a nuisance vs chaos because unlike guardians cultists cant shoot at cultists and have any hope to win you have to chase them around. Which is easier said then done. Chaos has an easier chance with this because you can simply produce a few cultist squads to tie up things until either your CSM or CL gets out to help. But if you are losing points either way its a lost battle. Particularly if they go for the heretics first whom are weak from the FL. As quietus said back a page a turret will discourage them, could eldar not do the same? To stop the scout rush.

[Morpheus]

You know, come to think of this, if scouts were pop 2(and all the changes necessary to make them equal to guardians/cultists), that could be easily balanced out by allowing SM to get to tier 2 faster, like FC costing 50 power, and tier 2 research 225/75. This will definetely improve their chances vs orks, while providing them something to counter horrors/posessed/reapers/wartrakks/and so many other things that own SM.....

[ilia]

Hmm... sounds reasonable. SMs and Tier 2 whould go together better than cheese and ketchup!

[Weavern]

For the love of pie no! I dont want to see dreads arriving on the scene earlier then what it is now. A 50 power FC just screams pain! It means that the chaos lord is even more worthless considering all the stun related issues witht he FC and orbital bombardment. If you are going to lower the price of anything lower the price of their tier advancament instead of adjusting the hero. If he gets any cheaper I want a super buff for the CL so that he wins 1 v 2 :p

[Quietus]

If you CC the scouts, with guardian superior squad size, your units will team up on the scouts and rip them apart... thats 2-3 guardians meleeing a scout at a time (also with more cc damage). The Scouts can't focus on one guard and kill them that way. Your guards will also receive a defense bonus for being in cc, helping against any other scouts. And you reinforce cheaper than the scouts.

[Weavern]

Quietus part of the problem could be trying to catch the scouts :-/

[JADezimar]

lolz if the scouts are running then waht harm are they doing ..........

[Weavern]

From cultists which means you wont be able to slow them down in CC. It only takes a few seconds to decap a point at which point more often then not from a cultist senario the scouts can easily out run the cultists with 1/2 dead or similarly. The fact of the matter is you cant catch them and if you go back to capping the point they can just engage you and do it all over again. Putting a LP on it is nice and all but that is a resource burden when you are dealing with multiple scout squads and needs as many units to fend them off before the FC arrives with his rine escort. Besides if the scouts make it to the worker they tend to die quite quickly.

[JADezimar]

K makes sense

[Morpheus]

Weavern, you should try a straight scout rush on a 1v1 map. You'll find out that getting fc and tacs is not that easy at all, if your some of your scouts didn't cap anything. You'll get fc and maybe 1 tac at a price of no lps for the points capped. As chaos, build lps on the points you just capped - you'll only have 2 max. If he attacks the points - engage him. If he runs away - cancel the build, if you wish. Do the same to the other point. By the time that fc and a tac arrive - you'll have a cl and a tac on your own, plus better economy, if you built at least 1 lp right away. And if he attacks your heretics, you should be able to kill at least one scout, maybe two - the req exchange is fairly close.

[Weavern]

Morph I have tried that so its not like I'm speaking from non experiance. Its just a matter of time depending on the build order. To my memory i was screwed over in two areas those being that I went heretic, cultist, cultist and chaos lord, marines. Instead of cultistx2, heretic. The main thing is that more often then not on the smallest maps the scouts arrive to harass my workers either just as the point is about to be finished or shortly after the point. This all depends on the order the SM is capping things.

The marine player also managed to take a pot shot at my heretics slowing me down about 120 req. As for the notion that the FC and tacs wont be there that quickly. That is correct the tacs wont but either the FC or the tacs will be there either as my CL or CSM get out or shortly afterwards. Depending on how many points I managed to get or how many I lost the SM can still be ahead of me through just capping. The fact of the matter is while the marine player can send those 3 squads out or whatnot he can leave one behind to finish capping the map or his base then assuming he isnt wasting everything in reinforcing easily has enough money to LP his own points giving himself an advantage.

[Psy]

nerf teh scout!
nerf teh scout!
nerf teh scout!
nerf teh scout!
nerf teh scout!
nerf teh scout!

:stfu:

Anyway - seems more and more people agree, both on relic forums and dowreplays. Dowreplays is all but in undisputed favor of it. So all you naysayers :loser:

muahahaha

How does it feel? :P

Youd wont get away that easy Prax tho, next on my "nerfit" list are cultist nades and traks :point:

[ilia]

Psy, I am FOR nerfing scouts, but at the same time, I believe SMs should get a boost in a different way then.

What do they have early on, that other races dont, other than the scout? Thats right, nothing. They have -2 members per squad, they dont have poss or horrors early on, FC gets eaten alive by the CL (even after the stun bug, 1 on 1 cl wins) (not to mention CL being 10000% more effective Vs regular troops, as his reload time is 50% less than that of FC). Orks will stomp em, shees will eat em, Chaos will fuck em. SMs should have a boost. Preferably by faster and cheaper Tier 2 availability (make it cost 200/75 and less ~30 secs time). SMs rely heavily on vehicles. But as they are now, vehicles are often not an option.

So until anything changes, I will continue using scouts en-masse. I have simply no other choice Vs the Eldar (yes I know, I lack uber skillz, and thus forced to rely on cheap tactics, sue me).

[MVB]

Nerfed scouts = Marines are instantly the worst 1v1 race in the game by leaps and bounds. Dumbest fucking idea ever to nerf them, instead of giving some manageable boost to starting chaos/eldar units (guardians/cultists). I hope to fuck they don't make them pop 2, psy, because then Guardians + Cultists + Sluggas are about a billion times better than them, because scouts will no longer have the 2:1 advantage that allows micro to give them an edge.

Good job trying to fuck up marines, ya eldar bitch; fucking selfish.

[The Fell Hand]

I honestly don't think Relic would simply smack a 2 pop and scouts and leave it at that. Being primarily a 1v1 player, god knows how badly I would get smacked around by eldar and chaos. Ork already cream me more often than not, but scouts 2 pop and that's it? Relic's recent patch didn't appear to be too competent, so I really really hope the car gets a fix, not just some grease for the squeaky, squeaky wheels out there.

Relic : Oh, 349839 users have joined a chorus of "let's make scouts 2 pop"
: Ok, we'll do that then.

I really don't think so...or hope so...Ridiculous.

*mentions* - Did you get my pm MVB?

[Morpheus]

I saw many SM players on relic forum saying that scouts don't need a nerf. Eldar and Chaos are obviously the only ones screaming "nerf nerf nerf". Oh, well, scouts get nerf, we won't see any SM in 1v1 and much less of them in team games, it'll be a great Eldar fest for everyone, since they'll be the best 1v1 race, and best team race as well. Welcome to the less diverse gameplay, ladies and gentlemen.

And ilia, it'll be so hard to balance how quicky SM can get to tier 2. It directly affects balance between SM and Chaos, since they're so similar. Speed up Chaos as well - the whole thing goes out of whack. But here's an idea for you - make terms similar to posessed/horrors and make them tier 1. But then the races will be almost identical....

[Psy]

Morph that is the exact same BS argument eldar players used prior to nerfs....

Chaos is already fast to tier 2.

[Quietus]

Scouts are fine.

I really don't see why your on such a crusade to nerf everything that can present a challenge to your eldar game (which you can defeat anyway).

[Weavern]

Morph I really dont have a problem with the concept and the way scouts are at the moment. Its how they can outrun most things and the damage that snipers used to inflict on my army. As for grenades, well there is a small movement of people who think they need to be nerfed also. Scouts as scouts are fine, the problem that I typically find with them is that I cant catch them to stop their early annoyances. That and cultist stats except for grenade launchers SUCK!



Cultists can have 4 different weapons. Here are the damage-per-second (DPS) rates of those weapons:

Cultist Knife DPS



tp_infantry_low 2.63
tp_infantry_med 3.47
tp_infantry_high 2.92
tp_infantry_heavy_med 2.25
tp_infantry_heavy_high 0.40
tp_commander 0.40

tp_monster_med 0.40
tp_monster_high 0.40

tp_vehicle_low 0.40
tp_vehicle_med 0.40
tp_vehicle_high 0.40

tp_building_low 1.13
tp_building_med 0.40
tp_building_high 0.40

Bleah. Pretty horrid melee damage. Even factoring in the 15 RP cost, this isn't really great. To give you an idea, consider CSM. CSM do a little more then triple this in melee, have a little over triple the hitpoints, and cost 3.3 times as much. It's a *very* marginal gain, if at all.

How about the default LasPistol?

Cultist LasPistol DPS



tp_infantry_low 2.00
tp_infantry_med 2.22
tp_infantry_high 2.00
tp_infantry_heavy_med 2.00
tp_infantry_heavy_high 2.00
tp_commander 2.00

tp_monster_med 2.00
tp_monster_high 2.00

tp_vehicle_low 2.00
tp_vehicle_high 2.00
tp_vehicle_med 2.00

tp_building_low 2.00
tp_building_med 2.00
tp_building_high 2.00

Quite possibly the worst ranged damage in the game.
But wait, it gets worse!

Cultist Plasma DPS



tp_infantry_low 5.60
tp_infantry_med 7.41
tp_infantry_high 5.33
tp_infantry_heavy_med 9.60
tp_infantry_heavy_high 7.06
tp_commander 1.54

tp_monster_med 3.11
tp_monster_high 0.80

tp_vehicle_low 0.80
tp_vehicle_med 0.80
tp_vehicle_high 0.80

tp_building_low 2.67
tp_building_med 0.80
tp_building_high 1.19

These numbers are truly awful. This version of Plasma is about 3 to 4.5 times weaker than CSM's Plasma against the typical targets. I epecially like how they do 1/12th damage vs. demons. Ugh.

Lastly, here it comes, the saving grace of Cultists:

Cultist Grenade Launcher DPS (see below)



tp_infantry_low 23.14
tp_infantry_med 29.46
tp_infantry_high 21.69
tp_infantry_heavy_med 14.46
tp_infantry_heavy_high 7.14
tp_commander 5.00

tp_monster_med 8.44
tp_monster_high 5.00

tp_vehicle_low 5.00
tp_vehicle_high 5.00
tp_vehicle_med 5.00

tp_building_low 5.15
tp_building_med 5.00
tp_building_high 5.00

These numbers need some explanation.

First, this assumes a 100% hit rate. When fired, cultist grenades scatter before landing. They scatter 3 distance units when direct fired, and 6 when blind fired. (Given the short range, I'm going to assume they won't be firing blind, as a rule.) When they land, they have an explosive radius of 4. This means they CANNOT miss their primary target as long as they can see it.
[Edit: Cannot miss a *non-moving* target. Due to grenade travel time, they can (and often do) miss moving targets.]

Second, since the grenades do AOE damage, the damage will be multipled by the number of units you hit. You can easily hit 4 units at a time, meaning a single Cultist can be dishing out over 100 DPS under perfect cirumstances.

(If you want per-hit damage, just multiply DPS by 3. Grenades fire once every 3 seconds.)

No suprises here. Cultists generally suck, even as melee meatshields. But, they absolutely murder stuff if they are allowed to pummel them with grenades.

This comes from Vertigo @ relicboards post (http://forums.relicnews.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=691161)]

There is also information on how accurate and the scope of grenades in reality. Now comparable to scouts you cant begin to compare a cultist without GL to a scout in terms of use ability other then a deturant for other units due to their relatively large squad. Their reinforce rate isnt phenominal either. By no means am I advocating that cultists need a buff, i'm just saying looking at the numbers what are cultists without grenade launchers?

[ilia]

Yes, cultist plasma is useless. Dunno why it was included at the first place...

[Morpheus]

But you can't deny that if cultists are allowed to melee scouts, they'll win. And as for early micro - sure SM will try to annoy you by firing at cultists and then running away, coming back, firing again - but remember, this takes attention away from other things, so it is easy to forget to build an lp or request a tac right when you got enough req for it. Plus scouts can't do this forever, as soon as your tac shows up - they have to retreat. All this takes alot of skills and attention and not that easy to do, so I do not see this as a "cheesy" tactic at all.
And last but not least - what kind of challange can SM bring to Chaos if not for scouts and snipers in tier 1? Nothing - they would have to tech like crazy to tier 2 and hope they dont get rushed by early lord and CSM. Bring your units and melee everything = gg SM. GLs are reletively comparable to snipers, raptors >>> asaults, add posessed and horrors to the bunch...

[MVB]

Pop 2 = marines lose every 1v1, period. The game has major balance flaws in early 1v1, and/or people are wusses and don't like that they require much more micro to handle the marine scouts early on than the scouts require to handle them (which isn't balance, but is more just how the races are). If you pop 2 the scouts, then a chaos can just cultist rush, b/c the marine can't outnumber the cultists 2:1, and therefore can't outdance them. Same goes vs. guardians, and especially vs. sluggas, as an outnumberance on sluggas is the only thing which allows marinescouts to handle slugga squads (one runs, one fires), if they are even #'s squad vs squad, the sluggas just target one scout with each slugga squad, and gg marines.

[Psy]

poor SM :P

SM > 3 eldar
CSM > Eldar
ORK > SM

Eldar>Ork

Problem wth light infantry design in a heavy infantry game maybe?

[MVB]

I don't think so, psy. Spiders, snipers, heavy bolters SHOULD own the living piss out of light infantry. That works out fine. Maybe nerf spider costs a fair bit, and make them do less damage. Nerf sniper damage vs. heavy infantry. Then eldar can counter early scouts with spiders, but can't be owned by snipers even though spiders are heavy. Make spiders just cheap enough to overcome the added cost of buying the reaper aspect stone and adding reapers w/ the spiders to then counter tac marines. Leave scouts at pop 1 so marines don't get horribly owned by every race out there. They just have to learn to deal with both spiders and reapers at more or less the same speed they have to deal with just g's and ONE aspect right now.

Don't give orks a starting slugga squad -- make them pay for it. This should cut out some of their early numerical advantage, giving eldar/csm/sm more ability to outmicro them ... but honestly, they should just remove orky base guns and up orky base hp. The fact is, whatever building an ork builds is instantly a turret, and that's no good for the other races, b/c it gives orks a lot of ability to fast tech to trakks. Take away ork everything-is-a-turret ability, but make their buildings tougher, and leave fast-trakk in, and you should give other races the ability to play a hard fast early game and prevent orks from getting traks. As is, orks just build waugh towers, basic lp's and loads of sluggas and you can't do shit to them unless you have spiders. Nerfing spider damage some levels out orks w/ eldar, and doing the rest levels orks with marines/csm.

Nerf cultist grenade launchers, please, ffs. That alone should balance out chaos. They can counter snipers with CSM, and can counter fast scouts with heretics' ability to get chaos marines out before first scouts show up on any of the 1v1 maps.

[JADezimar]

You learn so much reading about balance =x :P

[Psy]

.

[MVB]

Eh psy? Are you using that "." to agree with my suggestions, agree with what dez said, or just make a random . statement?

[Psy]

No, a can't be bothered anymore statement.

Anyway - I need someone to test map i'm working on due to my complete lack of mercy to slow ass POS computers.

This map will end all maps for dow btw :) you know me ...

on msn atm

[ilia]

PATCH 1.2 Fixes

General:

HQ limit is 1.

Max Number of Generators at tier 1 is 2
Max Number of Generators at tier 2 is 4
Max Number of Generators at tier 3 is 6


Thermo plasma/bigga generators now require Tier 3 equivalent.

Builders no longer take Infantry cap. Limit of 4.

All turrets now have a limit of 6. Waagh banners have a limit of 9. (up to max ork tech tree).



SMs:

Orbital bombardment does 30% less damage to vehicles and buildings.

Scout Sniper Rifle Damage 150/200 Down from 300/350.

Armory cost decreased to 150/50, down from 175/50.

Tier 3 cost decreased to 350/150, Down from 500/200.

Tier 3 Time decreased to 100, down from 125.

Orbital relay can no longer build Dreadnaughts or Hellfire Dreadnaughts

Orbital relay build time increased to 100.

Plasma Rifle Cost increased to 60/15, up from 40/10.

Rhinos can be built from Sacred Artifact. No Vehicle population cost. Limit of 4.

Sacred artifact cost decreased to 200/100 from 250/125.

Dreadnoughts are now 3 Cap, Upgrades no longer disable the "marine dreadnought fist twin" attack.

Hellfire Dreadnought's Chain gun, and Las cannon (upgrade) do same damage values as regular Dreadnought's Chain gun and Las cannon upgrades.

Hellfire Dreadnought's Missile Launcher increased penetration vs Medium vehicles to 69%, and Vs High vehicles to 50 %.

Vehicle cap is sorted in the following way:

Starting: 4

After 1st research (Requires Machine Cult) : 7

After 2nd research : 12

After 3rd research: 20

Predators are now 4 cap.




Chaos:

Heretic slowly regenerates when not in "Forced Labor" stance. Regeneration rate is 1HP/ 2Sec.

Grenade launcher penetration Vs Infantry_heavy_med decreased to 25%.

Possessed Squad requiers Armoury.

Plasma rifle cost increased to 60/15 up from 40/10.

Cultist max number of units in squad is 20.

Rhinos can be built from Sacrificial Circle, and are available at start. Vehicle population cost is 2.

Bloodthirster no longer costs more and more to summon with each time killed.

Chaos Veh. caps:

Starting cap: 3

After 1st research (requires Machine pit): 8
After 2nd research: 12
After 3rd research: 20


Orks:

Guns on all buildings, other than Waagh Banners and Settlements/Forts can be gained as free upgrades (each with a 30sec. time cost) only after "More Dakka" research has been researched.

Wartrak and WarTrukk Big Shoota Twin Reload Time increased to 0.8, up from 0.3.

Settlements/Orky Forts can no longer build Slugga sqauds.

Gretchin squads no longer build faster when reinforced.



Eldar:

Any Unit with the FoF/Gravic Booster stance activated now has 1% accuracy.

Brightlance platforms and Shuriken platforms now come only as upgrades to Guardian squads, 2 platforms per squad. Upgrades require soul shrine, and all Aspect portal stones.

Eldar Bonsinger's teleport range reduced to the same teleporting range as that of the Warp Spider

Eldar Rangers removed. Cloaking ability can be researched at Aspect portal, and is now applied to banshees.

Fire Prism:

Damage increased to 300/430, up from 200/330.

Penetration Vs Infamtry_heavy_med and Infantry_heavy_high decreased to 3%.

Penetration Vs Infantry_low, Infantry_med and Infantry_high decreased to 10%

Shuriken cannons removed.



Avatar No longer increases Squad or Vehicle cap.

Avatar no longer takes 5 squad cap.

Banshee cost is 55 Req. per unit.

Conceal fixed.



END OF LIST.

[McFodder]

PATCH 1.1 Fixes - Final.

--

Penetration Vs Infamtry_heavy_med decreased to 10%.

--

Suggestions? ideas? comments? :D

Yeah - change it to 'Infantry_heavy_med' or relic will patch it exactly as you typed it and break more shit :lol:

[JADezimar]

Ilia has to do with relic ?

[ilia]

Yes. My uncle is Jay Wilson himself. :D

JK

[Morpheus]

Dreadnoughts pop 3, but not the Fire Prisms? That seems to be uinfair, considering how much better fps are....

And you're cutting snipers in half - they'll be useless, noone will use them.

Hellfires are useless, better to just take them out of the game completely. Dreads, preds, and whirls do everything that need to be done much better than hellfires, there's no need for them.

Rangers pop 3 - so that noone will mass them? Just don't give them enough damage to make them that effective, they're the only anti-morale unit Eldar have, make morale damage more, that's it.

Nobs - you'll have to create another unit to do that.

Forced Labor - deleting used heretic is good enough, you're paying for one more, but it builds 3x. Use first heretic on barracks, second on the first lp. Delete one, build a new one, build lps. Time for armory - use fl. After that you may not need fl at all.

[Weavern]

I really hope 1/2 those suggestions are just a joke :P

[ilia]

Morpheus:

Nob squad member and Nob leader units are different.

Hellfires rock Vs orks.

And Snipers aren't suppose to be the mainstay of your force. Cutting damage (not morale damage) to half of it's original value, will prevent killing entire squads within a moment. Snipers are supposed to break enemy infantry. Not actually kill them.


+ See changes to my previous post. :-p

[Psy]

morph fyi - prism IS pop 3. And for that it tends to think itself a cc unit and likes to kill other prisms (even its own force and in extreme cases - itself.).

[Psy]

Nerfed scouts = Marines are instantly the worst 1v1 race in the game by leaps and bounds. Dumbest fucking idea ever to nerf them, instead of giving some manageable boost to starting chaos/eldar units (guardians/cultists). I hope to fuck they don't make them pop 2, psy, because then Guardians + Cultists + Sluggas are about a billion times better than them, because scouts will no longer have the 2:1 advantage that allows micro to give them an edge.

Good job trying to fuck up marines, ya eldar bitch; fucking selfish.


LOL.

Enangle is OP my hero can't permastun your fs oh no nerf it.
Council is bugged - let's not just fix it lets nerf it too.



And my fave of all - "Eldar HQ is overpowered" - an actual topic on relic forums. ROFL.


2:1+micro does not equate with "edge" mvb it equates with "pwnage".


Just like I play eldar now with still no council, late plasmas, no bonesong for greatly needed boost on aspect or hq if under fire needing time.
Just like my bl needs to outnumber artilery pieces 5 to 1 etc, etc.

2 pop may be high I'll agree there. But scout can not remain as is.

[Morpheus]

Illia, flamers break squads much more effectively than snipers, they're supposed to break squads, I use snipers vs light inf and as a support vs heavy. And you can't have snipers as your main force in 1v1 - you will loose. The problem people have with snipers is in team games, where one person can mass 6-8 squads of them and become untouchable to regular forces. Instead of massing a counter to them, they complain. It is like massing regular marines vs reapers - I don't care what you put on those marines, they will loose. Use 1/2 number of squads of spiders/assaults/raptors to defeat snipers, instead of charging them with regular infantry - snipers are not cheap and comparable to those forces. It is exactly the same problem as massing reapers vs SM - I had no idea how to handle them until I used the same number of snipers squads vs reapers, and people started complaining due to the fact they couldn't just mass reapers and render SM useless. I do not believe snipers need any fixing at all, people just need to build anti-sniper stuff more.

And maybe scouts cannot remain the same - but other than changing their speed, modifying them will make SM weak vs eldar and chaos, not even mentioning ork. The only balanced solution I can see is making SM identical to Chaos - make scouts same as cults, and either considerably speed up tier 2 to have a chance vs posessed/horrors, or make terms just like posessed/horrors. In any other case SM has no chance.

BLs do not need to outnumber arty 5:1 - I'll take fps over whirls/defilers any day.

FC does not permastun - it has 30% chance of stunning a unit for 3 secs. It may seem to be longer than that, due to the fact that stunned unit goes to ranged stance and sometimes won't get out of it on its own after the stun goes away. Numerous times I had a similar problem with my marines not going to cc if a single shee engages them - and I never use F2.

[Psy]

That's why you build 4-5 pronto. How many times have you "supported" me on burial with MASS sniper? That's right, countless, wonder why it was so efective? Wonder where those 150+ kills come from?

Morph please.... you mass them vs everything not just eldar.

As for rest you know you are wrong but i'm gonna remind you anyway:

BL - hit via arty/misile causes it to reset up. And arty hit has to be just close enough for a little splash.

FC - the bug is not with the unit being hit LOL, the bug is with FC's stunb ability.


etc etc

I played/play some Sm Moprh maybe you should play some eldar that way you don't theory craft.

[MVB]

Psy, I will say that when you got orbitaled and freaked out, and in the case of bl's, you keep your troops WAY too freaking close together, and that includes brightlances ... you NEVER micro to spread out a little, making YOU imbalanced vs. area affect weapons, not necessarily eldar in general.

[JADezimar]

Well I could c a sniper nerf but the only nerf I could c is slowing them down a bit. There rush is too easy to perform. Vs the other races rush. And Its harder to defend against sm rush than other races rush. Thats my only gripe slow snipers down a bit. So it aint so easy to micro around 2 cultists squads with 1 marine squad. I Know I dont have a lot of experience but I generally own 1 on 1 automatched games as sm. If I play as someone else I got some sm ramming snipers down my throat. And its purely there speed thats the problem. Cant catch em. NOr can you run from them.

But I c no problem with there damage. If they were even the same speed as cultists gaurdions etc. Atleast 2 squads wuold affectively eliminate a threat. Plus rushing sm would be more possible in the fact that They would have to have 1 xtra squad to hold off your rush. Which is most likely able With some micro and an xtra sniper squad marines would hold off rush just fine from cultists gaurdions. But where as speed is now. Sm even with 1 sniper squad can hold back a set of cultists quite well. Just wasting chaos or eldar resources.

[Psy]

erm I never said bl is imbalanced mvb or area effect, i simply said the same as you just did in diff words, spreading 3 all over the place wont help spreding them in 3's will, hence 3-5 to 1 scenario......

keeping them bunched = bad.

As for orbital I wish i could upgrade my eldrich to OB strength because as is I get an upgraded LP down to half health - L TF O L....

[MVB]

IMO orbital is ridiculously overpowered; I think it should take out ONE building, regardless of building, but as is it demolishes or nearly demolishes all buildings in a large area, as well as nearly insta-killing any "normal" infantry, and injuring any "heavy infantry."

It should have it's "primary" purpose in situations such as when I used it against you -- somebody gets caught in an alley with a lot of troops, and orbital fucks them horribly, a case where also I think they should be killed ... frankly, I think units should be stunned for a second or two after orbital, b/c part of the problem is they immediately try to get back into their unit formation and run right back into the next burst; if they stayed outside the burst pattern after getting blown away from it with the first blast, casualties among infantry would be much lighter.

The only overbalance in reality, IMO, with orbital -- and one which accentuates its significant strength over things like Eldritch -- is that you can dropship FC's in ... so suicide a speeder into a target area base, deep strike in your FC, kill base. On the other hand, this is EASY for marines to counter -- just build a missile turret in your base and target the FC, keeping him down 'till more lethal firepower shows up to handle him, but it's still a big drawback.

On yet ANOTHER hand, if you've gotten to late game like that with marines, you're already in for a world of hurt, which is the whole point ... scouts and that wh ole argument aside, marines have shite for Tier 1 in comparison to other races, requiring tier 2 and really tier 3 for maximum efficiency. Anyway, what I will agree with is that this game is hopelessly flawed as far as balance goes. I still greatly enjoy playing it, but it would be foolish to claim it is balanced.

That's part of why I disagree so strenuously with the scout nerfage -- IMO marines are *actually* the most balanced race as far as things go, but the OTHER races are all omgwtfimbalanced ... eldar have innumerable overpowers and underpowers, as do orks, as do chaos.

[ilia]

MVB, if all races were less different from eachother as they are now, this game would be so much less fun. That is IMO of course.

Yes, its unbalanced right now as it is, on a situational basis, but it IS balanced on the general basis: SMs have Better Tier 3 than rest, Chaos got better Tier 1, than rest, etc.

Its just that Relic didnt really care too much about the various situations and styles of play of ppl. They just made sure that each race had every counter to every other race, than added some crazy things just for fun, and in order to make the races "more different" from one another, unintentionally (or intentionally?) creating a huge amount of imbalances. Thats why many shitty things got past the beta: Relic being Uber naive thought its all "good fun and w00t we are teh best!!!1111 Look~! Termies!!!11112". Little did they realize how demanding the support of this game will be (they still dont realize it now).

Read my lips: They wanted to make a fun flashy game. Not a 100% balanced one.

[MVB]

Actually, IMO the problem was they had in-house testers who were apparently all StarCraft professional players and what-not, and so were very fixated on a specific style of play (like zerg-rushing and what-not), and who had a much stronger voice with Relic than ALL the other beta testers and players combined, due to the fact that they were in-house and actual people talking to people, instead of text on a computer screen.

This theory -- if true -- certainly would explain the very massy nature of 1v1's (IMO 1v1 in this game = 0 tactics, more or less) ... if you have more troops and better micro you win, as well as explaining why there was such pressure to revert reinforcement times to full while engaged, when the beta community in the beta forums was very divided on it, and certainly not majority pro-noslowdown ... heavy rushers are harmed by having slower reinforcement while in combat, b/c less # of units can actually beat more # of units when that is the case.

It would also possibly explain the imbalances in the game, b/c a smaller # of in-house testers, even if they were "all pro and 1337" or whatever, would not be able to identify as many imbalances as thousands of closed and open beta testers blatantly did identify.

[JADezimar]

So when a set of units is in combat it reinforces slower ?

[Psy]

ie: this game sux? lol

anyway.. sticking 2 maps up 6p and 8p - really ONE map with two versions of it.

WTF performs better than last hope:

Last Hope fps = 60-10 (quickstart insane comp 7 x 20caps fighting)

Forest gump pack - 100 - 20 (same)

GTFOnline need to playtest. Maps in privates.

[JADezimar]

I have no clue what at all psy just said about anything.

[MVB]

He made a couple maps, and needs people to playtest with him

You're welcome,
-- MVB, Official Psy Translator

Although if I'm wrong, I reck'n I'm fired from my Official duty there

[Morpheus]

Psy, if 4 snipers is massing, then what about 4 reapers? 4 bls? And I stated numerous times that if the game is not over in first 2 battles, almost always 2-3 squads get killed and I never rebuild them, unless there are "mass" reapers shooting at me. And you know as well as me that fp hitting missile squads not only causes them to reset, but also kills them pretty fast.

I also lost my fc a few times to another fc due to my fc just shooting back after being stunned. If you keep ordering your hero to attack the fc, your hero will "snap out of it" after stun is gone. You'll also notice that stun has a recharge timer. Stun is not bugged, units going to and from cc is bugged somehow(see shee example).

And orbital should be better than eldrich. It comes way the hell later than eldrich, so there are much less times it can be used. I think orbital combined with landraider were designed to balance SM not having BT/Avatar/Squigg, only landraiders are way too useless for their price/pop, and orbital came out a little overboard. I think the only thing it needs is increasing rechage timer a little. Every race can have something back home that would toss fc around untill you get forces to kill it. Orbital can only kill one vital building, if it is targeted direclty on it. Other than that you can kill a few bunched up gens/banners/turrets.

And I think team games are balanced, if you dont have all same races on the same teams. 1v1 can be balanced on large maps - this way you don't feel the lightning fast rush capabilities of some races.

[Bentusi]

I think this is now the longest running thread we've had

[Morpheus]

Well, I think we're getting tired of this discussion. Psy probably decided that I'm not going to give in and gave up on this.

After playing a few automatch 1v1 games vs Eldar, I think that Eldar is an underdog in 1v1 vs SM, just like SM are vs Ork. I think main problem for Eldar is Assault marines, they can't handle combo of snipers and assaults very well. A couple of times I came close to loosing, both times I was saved by timely assaults. In those games Eldar was so determined to kill snipers, they were ignoring a sinlge scout flamer squad, which rendered all incoming shees useless. It also happened in my last game vs Ork - he was chasing snipers around while one flamer broke all the orks. I think when SM get an armory, they're very tough to handle for other races. And I'd say Eldar needs a boost vs SM, perhaps make 2nd and 3rd stone cost less and less time to build... Or make all stones available after soul shrine is up, provided that one stone is already built... I may change my mind, thouhg, if I play some 1300 - 1400 Eldar.

As for scouts and Eldar issue... Here's a replay for this, check it out. I think the loss was due to some idle squads not capping when they had a chance to do so...
http://www.geocities.com/m0rpheyus/DoW/scouts_and_eldar.zip

[Psy]

No morph I simply got tired of arguing the obvious. If relic doesn't do anything about it or continues on the nerf teh eldar bandwagon - there is always Hl2.

BTW morph that eldar was ignoring flamers because broken squads can regain morale, dead squads can't.

[Weavern]

New topic instead of scouts, as scouts seems to be 100% polarized with a few people sitting on the fence.

Topic being something me and MVB were going on about a few times that being orks against marines and in particular (trak problems aside?) that MVB believes that ork buildings should have their guns removed (or added on for a price?) and their HP adjusted to bring them more in line with marines. Myself I believe this is ludcrious and would completely destroy the feel of ork bases, sure you cant scout rush them but with either some sort of anti building or enough troops most buildings fall easily and their bolter fire for the most part is a nuisance.

DISCUSS! orks and marines!

[ilia]

Prax for god's sake, lets see:

Marine buildings dont have guns. You can rush Marines

Chaos buildings dont have guns. You can rush chaos

Eldar buildings dont have guns. You can rush Eldar.

Ork buildings have guns. These guns, though inaccurate, CAN actually kill regular early game units (shees, marines, scouts, whatnot). 20 seonds of sustained fire, and a FC has 1/2 of his HPs removed. Yes, these ork buildings may have crap HP, but the fact remains a fact: Orks become unrushable. You wil need to tech to HBs to even TRY killing ork buildings. and if you happen to attack Ork Upgraded LPs, forget bout HBs' you will need either to use a hero (impossible if LP is near ork base), or tech to rockets. Yes, upgraded ork LPS have slightly more fire range than the sight range of your HBs' unlike other race's LPs (check NemBUS if you dont believe me).

Conclusion: Ork buildings are impossible to kill early on w/o losing a lot of units, until you have HBs, and if you assault LPs, rockets.


Next issue: Tracks.

The main advantage of the tracks, is that they, unlike other race's vehicles can actually replace ork infantry in most times. Tracks have insane amount of firepower, with a ridiculous reload time - 0.3. Even with their 50% accuracy, Tracks manage to kill marines faster than 2 Squads with plasma rifles ever could. I suggest increasing Track reload time of the Big shootas, to 0.7 in order to balance out their insane firepower.

[MVB]

Ilia hit it nicely on the head, IMO, but let's clarify something.

All those rush comments also combine with
Chaos rush moves = decent
Eldar rush moves = decent
Marine rush moves = decent (some would say better than decent with scouts)
Ork rush moves = insane

Plus ork can rush 2 or 3 of 3 or 4 slugga squads at you while the other caps points and gets them lp'ed and waughed to make them immune to infantry more or less, and if his rush fails, you still can't do shit to counterattack him while he's weak, and you don't have nearly as many points capped as he has. If you do counterattack immediately, orky base gunz will kill you, and meanwhile he's gaining an enormous requisition advantage over you.

This is ALL made possible by orky base gunz, BECAUSE if you hold off a scout rush early AS a marine, and the marine loses his units, even if he has a req advantage you can counter back with your troops now that he more or less has none, and you can take him out. Who cares if he has more money, you don't give him the chance to use it.

With ork, after you hold the slugga rush, probably with casualties, probably losing your FC at least (who is crucial for attacking an ork base as a one-man-meat shield), you can't counterattack, so the ork gets basically a free req advantage on you. THEN we get into things like much faster-available trakks and what-not, plus earlier req, plus early rokkits. Marine = owned, and all made possibly by an unassailable early ork base.

[ilia]

Also, remember than you can hide orks in their own buildings.

Think that you won by being able to destroy one of his buildings? Nop, dude! a BM + 4 Sluggas pop out, and kill your weak force. Infiltrated gretchins rebuild the lost structure, while you are being chased back into your base by the green tide.


If Eldar is #1 @ Cheese, orks are definately #2.

[Morpheus]

I think for starters ork should have their initial slugga squad removed. Beating a quick 3 squad + Big Mech rush is very difficult, but is beatable. The problem is that you can't stop ork from expanding while you do this, you can't attack unprotected lps with one squad leftover from the fight.

SM absolutely need armory to have a chance vs ork, and it is very hard to get while loosing marines and fc. On the other hand, if SM makes it to tier 2, orks quickly become easy to handle, mainly due to missiles.

So, remove the initial slugga, take guns away from unupgraded lps and make them heavy buildings(base guns don't bother me that much), fix the trakks so that orks coudln't get them before you can even get an armory up. And, yeah, make stormboyz heavies a notch below assaults.
Although, it does seem like that's alot of nerfing all at once... I'd start with changing lps first. Any ork players care for a mod to test this?

[Weavern]

I wouldent mind a mod to test this but completely removing guns from ork buildings even with a change in their HP would destroy the ork chance to rebuild after their slugga are killed. One slugga squad cant do much and after an ork is beaten generally there is limited to no req left over depending on how badly the ork was beaten and how long the fight goes on. I may not be the best ork but reinforcing generally heavily depletes my req faster as ork then any other race. Even with sturdier banners and LP the loss of a single banner hits an ork harder then the loss of many other buildings for other races, a few banners and you are dealing with the damage of losing an armory and the armory is cheaper to replace then a banner or two. I would be very interested to see the great effect that either removing the first guns on banners and lp without hp change and then the hp change. Either way the orks without the ability for at least basic guns on buildings will cripple them 'IF' you beat back the first attack.

The real problem (traks aside due to them getting out so fast) that seems to be being versed is that when you attack them back you cant do it with a single squad like you can against all other races. A much more suitable change would be to lower the damage on buildings or decrease their accuracy thus letting you get in more of a hit, then increase the difference when the player upgrades to bigger shoota or a lv2 LP.

[ilia]

Maybe.

The so-called "first attack" aka slugga rush shouldnt exist at all, imo. Orks should rush just like all the other races: Basic squads + Hero. And not just basic squads alone.

Solution: Make waagh banners available only after Boyz hut.

[Foree]

Ork buildings has ridiculously low hp so being armed they compensate this disadvantage. Nothing should be changed here.

With ork, after you hold the slugga rush, probably with casualties, probably losing your FC at least (who is crucial for attacking an ork base as a one-man-meat shield), you can't counterattack, so the ork gets basically a free req advantage on you. THEN we get into things like much faster-available trakks and what-not, plus earlier req, plus early rokkits. Marine = owned, and all made possibly by an unassailable early ork base.

Very true, but isn't attacking an ork base without missiles/great number superiority suicide? I mean, why the hell should I bother with the damned settlement when I can just bash the lp's and banners round it without getting hit by those awesome gunz of the main.
That's basically what I do whenever fighting orks -- kill the boys on the field and then ram their weaker structures to hell. And I don't lose that many marines as it is thought, especially when my fc is still in use.

I think for starters ork should have their initial slugga squad removed. Beating a quick 3 squad + Big Mech rush is very difficult, but is beatable. The problem is that you can't stop ork from expanding while you do this, you can't attack unprotected lps with one squad leftover from the fight.

Removing them is a bad idea. And about the 3/bm rush -- if an ork does it, he's got to launch all of his boyz at you if he wants to increase his chances greatly, as if he still caps points, he'll have less orks in combat, which means marines can do their job very easily.

SM absolutely need armory to have a chance vs ork, and it is very hard to get while loosing marines and fc. On the other hand, if SM makes it to tier 2, orks quickly become easy to handle, mainly due to missiles.

You mean vs structures and wartraks? Yeah, missile blow them to bits. Tier 0 marines with flamers and hbs totally own orks as well.

[MVB]

Foree, the point is this, and you're missing it I think. I think ork buildings should be super boosted HP wise ... so don't think I want them to have same hp but no gunz.

Anyway, to the point ...
If the ork suicides sluggas at you he doesn't have to worry; the ork doesn't have to care about his squads, b/c he knows all he has to do is keep you on defensive while he uses one squad to cap points and economy up, and you can't counter after handling his sluggas/bm, b/c he has base defenses and you don't have an FC anymore. So he can just rebuild his sluggas immune to counterattack at any of his lp's (b/c if he's smart he put a few waughs at each lp, which m akes them noncounterable ... if he's really smart, he built a listening post, a couple waughs and a pile o' gunz -- great basegunz on that -- in your base at hte nearest lp to your base while you were desperately busy with his sluggas). Meanwhile, again if this is a good ork (if you haven't played the top ork players, don't talk -- you have no right), he's going to traks. You've got a marine squad or two recovering, low income b/c the map is his, an ork lp and waughs right outside your base, ork rebuilding and teching to traks. You're fucked.

The thing is, the ork doesn't HAVE to care if he loses those early sluggas and bm, so he doesn't even have to *really* handle them well, and this is the whole point. Slugga rush SHOULD be what it is, but the ork should have a drawback to it if it fails, just like the marines get uberfucked if their scoutrush fails (they have no econ and no backup defenses to a counterattack). As is now, the ork can rush with no fear of serious counterattack. Only eldar have a serious chance, and that's due to spiders, but tbh a "solution" shouldn't be "oh play eldar," especially not when the eldar are OVERPOWERED vs. orks, instead of simply balanced vs. them.

Long short, this game has immense balance issues; I enjoy playing it and will continue to do so, but anybody that tries to claim orks or eldar or marines or anyone isn't overpowered in some areas and underpowered in others is a total fucking moron, or simply in denial.

[JADezimar]

4 Lady of NIghtmares I seriously will make an assumption here that youve never played a pro ork player on a close map. I got a replay if you want to watch it o0 ?

[Foree]

ffs do you really have to misunderstand everything I post? :P

Know tham Im pretty sceptic and tend to believe in a thing only if I experience it. Ive not fallen to a slugga rush lately and made the ork suffer a bit for that.

Don't blaim me for lacks of xp -- if it's the quality of my opponents, go yell at them not me... I play automatch so I can't select my enemies.

[Foree]

its 4e in short ;)

As for the players -- read the post below :P

PS. didn't see your post b4 replying

[Foree]

H O L Y C R A P

I just won 6 games in a row playing as ork: 4 wins vs cm, 1 vs ork and 1 vs csm

I gotta admit the skills of my enemies weren't really high... but I was doing lazy myself and did not reinfoce the 3 slugga squads to more than 5 orks. Resulted in total ownage of the marines and a small skirmish with the orks. I had plenty of req i could spare on wbs, gens, lps and boyz of course.
:fuctupshi
Damn now I only gotta know if a good marine player with crazy micro can survive this. MVB, I'd like a test game with ya as soon as we can. I may not be the best orker out there but if that crap is so effective...

:boohoo:

[JADezimar]

Yep ive thought about playing ork just for the free ride. But Im usually teh type of person that doesnt like to follow the crowd and likes to take the hard way. Instead of picking the easy way and the most populor races etc. But this goes to show how easy ork is.... youve barely just started using them

[Foree]

not really -- even if I dont sound like it Ive played over 120 games now, and about 70 as ork :D

I just got bored a little and switched to sm now

[JADezimar]

o0 Ive played only about 100 games..... And find the ork absolutely the hardest Especialy in close maps.

[MVB]

4E, against all but the best slugga rushes, I will own the shit out of the slugga rush, but it requires insane micro, and even a half-assed ork will set up a nice as shit economy while I desperately outmicro the sluggas. When all is over, he may have lost his units, but he's got a great economy, and I've got a couple battered squads and barely any economy. My best chances against an ork are dancing around with 4 scout squads whenever he moves in, but basically cap as much shit as possible and set up upgraded lp's at them asap. then I dance around the upgraded lp's while waiting for requisition and building up tact squads that I keep out of the fight as long as possible; then I attack with 2 full tacts and fc while scouts are finishing dying and doing their damage, and kill the sluggas; problem is it requires insane micro while teching and lp'ing and a little bit of luck that I hopefully dissuade the ork from a full-out assault with upgraded lp's and a little bravado. Pro ork players know their marine opponent well and will just bull through the smoke and mirrors, and take you down to size and force you to pay for marines and shit before you have a good economy rolling. GG at that point.

[Morpheus]

Last couple of games vs ork were pretty good, both times I won due to outresourcing. I think if the players were a little better, I'd had no chance. And if ork decides to lp rush you on the medium maps, there's little you can do to stop them, they end up with better resourcing and winning easily.

1v1 games are all about economy and micro. Eldar has the best economy, alot of micro. SM are good with economy, alot of micro. CSM are ok with economy, not as much micro as Eldar or SM. And orks have the least micro and economy that defends itself - not much to worry about. The balancing factor for orks is their fragility, but that doesn't show up until you get heavy weapons necessary to deal with them, and those may not be available in time, due to insane orks' rushes. If you can't outresource ork while outmicroing him at the same time - SM has no chance.

[Psy]

Rofl, funny how this degenrated into "sm have no chance"... Not that I disagree vs ork but nobody played eldar to evaluate the point about them.....


just a thought.

Cary on tho - Sm need a buff..

[JADezimar]

Ive played Eldar And I think they got it pretty bad tooo. You dont have the time to get to warp spiders let alone even banshees before orks are in your face and base.

So then if you do try to build some (which are great against orks, not great but incredible) the orks are probably already teching up and will have vehicles very soon. I am impressed with the haywire bomb ws have though. If I had to chose to play against someone id rather play eldar then any other race just so I can use WS.

[Morpheus]

SM needs to be left alone, Eldar needs a slight buff vs SM, orks need a slight buff vs Eldar and a slight nerf vs Chaos and SM. Out of top 10 1v1 players almost half of them are orks, just like I said it would happen after the patch. SM and Chaos have a balanced presence, with Eldar being the fewest.

And SelectSelect must have some magic touch with Eldar - he's the only exclusive Eldar player in top 10, but he's #1.

[JADezimar]

Ya thats crazy. Either way Orks rush needs nerfed dont matere if your a marine or an eldar on short map ork rush is just in your base too fast.

[Foree]

Ya thats crazy. Either way Orks rush needs nerfed dont matere if your a marine or an eldar on short map ork rush is just in your base too fast.

Suggesting reduce slugga speed? It would do but then they wouldn't be able to catch up other units, like fucking spiders.

In that case, ork could be slowed, but would bnefit of a charge-speed bonus, when ordered to attack an enemy. So like, they would start running (same speed as it is now) when they are at 2/3 or 1/2 standard marine bolter range. If the enemy would run, the orks could catch up.

What do you think of this?

[MVB]

Psy I don't think SM need any buffs. I think Orks need changes and nerfs, and I think eldar need changes and nerfs and a couple buffs as far as early-game availabilities + costs go.

[Weavern]

Ok i've not yet returned to my pc but i'm going to toss out a few points from what I have seen. First thing to the comment letting orks build banners after boyz hut is a horrible, horrible idea. It would virtually screw over ork early game in relation to any of the other 3 because the fact of the matter is an ork can only have 2 slugga squads out and 2 grechins before the first waagh banner. I think a more feasable approach would be to remove the starting slugga and see how that changes the dynamics as it would remove easily 140 req and time between the first and second slugga giving them a slight handicap early on due to the production speed of slugga.

As for the concept of all the top players being orks well... look at the 1v1 and 2v2 maps and ask yourself how you would realistically stop a rush of 3-4 slugga and a mek? Or wave after wave of slugga with a minimalistic travel time to your base. Scout rushing aside orks do it much more efficently and if you toss in the offencive LP its GG. Scout rushing can kill other races but in comparison to the damage a slugga can do there is no comparison also the slugga is cheaper then the scouts. Thou I have heard some rumors in the boyz hut about scouts beating basic slugga in melee after a bit of dance and shoot. I am not saying this works but there are a few orks saying that somehow scouts won a melee fight.

Something that was discussed in game was allowing all ork buildings to get a gun upgrade to their basic guns from the pile of gunz, this would mean that the ork has to at least pick up their equivelent of an armory before all their buildings or at least the LP and banners aquire the lvl0 guns. This would require orks to get at least a gen before all their strategic points and banners become harder to take down. You could apply a slight cost to this or just have the guns require the pile of gunz then the upgrade on the lp and the banners are free but require time, as if you are going to make orks pay for their gun upgrade it should instantly go to the lvl2 big shoota guns.

[The Fell Hand]

Wow...that's a really cool idea. Pile o' gunz = guns for their structures. The hq already has those turret things, so that's not the issue...keep those, but yeah if the ork was faced with SOME sort of penalty for rushing your ass, asides from the fact that it's dirt easy...I think both sides could live with it. I'm interested...but would this idea ever come in to play? Dunnoes...

[ilia]

See changes to new patch version.

Edit: Another update following the recent discovery of issues.